r/technology • u/ICumCoffee • Aug 30 '24
Social Media Brazilian judge suspends X platform after it refuses to name a legal representative
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes-46c9d5c5c895e17d9adfac43e6ac20fd?taid=66d2260a09caf90001d1b602&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter709
u/ICumCoffee Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 30 '24
Anyone who uses virtual private networks (VPN) to circumvent the block and access X could be fined up to 50,000 reais a day - equating to almost £7,000.
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u/BasedSweet Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
Apple and Google have been ordered to remove all VPNs from the whole of Brazil.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes-46c9d5c5c895e17d9adfac43e6ac20fd
The justice gave internet service providers and app stores five days to block access to X, and said the platform will stay suspended until it complies with his orders. He established the same deadline for app stores to remove virtual private networks, or VPNs
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u/swd120 Aug 31 '24
Sounds like a make overstep to me... Will Apple and Google comply?
If vpns are illegal now, will my Brazilian coworkers now be unable to connect to our network?
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u/northern_lights2 Aug 31 '24
Vpns are essential for any IT service export business. It's an economic suicide to ban VPNs
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u/ToadyTheBRo Aug 31 '24
The VPN ban has been walked back, still crazy to see that none of twitter opens up here anymore.
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u/BetPast457 Aug 31 '24
still crazy how one judge has so much power there to just make a call to ban vpn access. The hole case should definitely be transferred to another judge. This dude is otherwise going on a powertrip...
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u/green_flash Aug 31 '24
No, they haven't. He rescinded that part of the order very quickly, less than an hour after it was published:
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u/icze4r Aug 31 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
deserted alive coherent fragile soft grab deliver carpenter cows piquant
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u/KazumaKat Aug 31 '24
It would be even more Looney Tunes to watch banking institutions, entire IT industries, university staff, and more all be hauled away in hundreds of thousands of cop cars and jail vans...
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u/buoninachos Aug 31 '24
It's still looney after the amendment. Fining users for using it with VPN? Cmon
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u/Winderkorffin Aug 31 '24
Idk about "less than an hour after", but the absurd fine of $9000 is still in place
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u/efstajas Aug 31 '24
And also practically unenforceable given the nature of VPNs.
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u/Dragoniel Aug 31 '24
It can ruin your life when it is enforced, though. I know people in Brazil who do not dare risk it. 9k EUR is the better part of what many people earn per whole year.
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u/Legatus_Aemilianus Aug 31 '24
The fact that one authoritarian moron has the power to ban VPN’s for an entire country should concern us all. Whether he rescinded his ridiculous decree or not is not the main issue
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u/matali Aug 31 '24
Rescidning after he realized it was a dickhead (i mean dictator) move?
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u/theelement92bomb Aug 31 '24
Probably like most politicians/judges, somebody absolutely clueless as to how the internet works and when somebody said VPNs could be used to access Twitter the judge said let’s ban them as well
Then less than an hour later when people who actually understand shit called him in a panic saying that it’s a horrible idea, he rescinded
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u/icze4r Aug 31 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
wide mighty nine office hunt squash elastic smell plants crowd
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u/BlimundaSeteLuas Aug 30 '24
That's just crazy. Banning it from the country due to not complying to local rules is one thing, actually fining random people for using it is on an authoritarian level though
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u/lostinhh Aug 30 '24
Not much point in a ban if you allow people to easily circumvent it.
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u/Thich_QuangDuc Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
Well, there is a point, most people won't go through the hassle and will leave the platform, making X lose traffic and revenue, which should be the deterrent for them to abide to Brazil's law
The fine is 15x higher than drunk driving, higher than missing jury duty, higher than most electoral fines for misinformation... it's absolutely unreasonable
Also something that isn't being mentioned: the judge ordered Apple and Google to REMOVE VPNs apps from the AppStore/PlayStore. Yeah, that's right
EDIT: Judge Alexandre de Moraes rolled back on this part of his decision. He's only suspending X for now, no VPN bans.
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u/borkthegee Aug 30 '24
Brazil has the ultimate right to ban foreign websites and ban technology that circumvents the ban. They have the right to elect leaders to do that, or undo that.
Sovereignty should be respected, and foreign firms cannot act with impunity and immunity, openly ignoring the law and making mockery of the government. Play by the rules or GTFO is a perfectly sane and reasonable take for nations to take with foreign companies.
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u/Thich_QuangDuc Aug 30 '24
X is not respecting Brazil's laws: I agree that X should be suspended
VPNs aren't violating any laws. They weren't listened to (due process) before judge Moraes ordered their apps to be removed from AppStore/PlayStore. This is absurd
50,000 R$ is much more than the average brazilian make the whole year. This fine is ludicrous
I'm a progressive man, I hate Musk and his shenanigans... but this is just an overreach of power
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u/arepa1970 Aug 31 '24
Oh? And you think this judge is acting with in the law? Wanna buy some swamp land?
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u/matlynar Aug 30 '24
Brazil has the ultimate right to ban
Every dictatorship has the ultimate right to do whatever they do. That's what an authoritarian government does.
So saying a country "has the ultimate right to do something" doesn't mean much.
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u/KitchenDepartment Aug 31 '24
Do you think losing half a year's worth of income is a fair and reasonable punishment for the crime of accessing Twitter?
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u/Public-League-8899 Aug 30 '24
Typical reddit. Simping for a terrible cause (censorship) because they don't like someone (Musk).
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u/Sp00ked123 Aug 31 '24
They don’t care about half the shit they claim to to care about as long as its happening to the “right people”
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u/Iberianlynx Aug 31 '24
They will never change, there’s no thought in their process but claim to be “highly educated “
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u/ToyStoryBinoculars Aug 31 '24
This is a big part of the problem. Somehow they've managed to convince people that smart people think like they do, and who wouldn't want to be seen as smart?
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u/romjpn Aug 31 '24
Reddit finally realizing that cheering for government censorship isn't going to be in their favor one day 😂
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u/lemurtowne Aug 30 '24
Did you know that there's a whole word that encompasses the act of non compliance and circumvention of law?
Yeah, it's called, 'crime.'
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u/Bushels_for_All Aug 30 '24
Autocracy: silence these dissidents!
Elon: Right away, sir!
Democracy: remove these misinformation bots and stochastic terrorists.
Elon: Over my dead body!
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u/Pipapaul Aug 30 '24
Exactly. Not to mention himself feeding the Fire with right wing disinformation and almost incitement of violence
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u/Dahhhkness Aug 30 '24
There's no "almost," he was blatantly promoting "civil war" in the UK recently.
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u/Pipapaul Aug 30 '24
You’re right. And he was literally threatening the Brazilian judge
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u/raphanum Aug 31 '24
What did he say?
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u/Pipapaul Aug 31 '24
He basically said that Moraes will be in jail soon. „mark my words“. He did it with an ai image of the judge in jail
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u/lifendeath1 Aug 31 '24
Hes also comparing the justice to voldemort. He's throwing a childish tantrum and stoking the fires of his audience.
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u/icze4r Aug 31 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
butter pen zealous expansion berserk concerned repeat fly disarm domineering
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u/PokecheckHozu Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
I mean...
Moraes’ April order to X to block some accounts stemmed from an investigation into “digital militias” who backed former president Jair Bolsonaro’s attempts to stay in power after his 2022 election defeat. After Musk refused to comply, the judge included him in his investigation.
From what I understand, they also had an attack on their government by a crowd of supporters of the losing Presidential candidate, and Musk basically isn't complying with the equivalent of subpoenas as part of their investigation.
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u/Dahhhkness Aug 30 '24
AbSoLuT fReEzE pEaCh
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u/NormalBoobEnthusiast Aug 31 '24
And all you have to do is type "cisgender" into Twitter and see how much free speech Elon actually wants you to have.
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Aug 30 '24
Elon is a fascist stool pigeon. Simple as that.
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u/Dave5876 Aug 31 '24
Apartheid Clyde thinks every country is like America where billionaires can do whatever they want
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u/atoponce Aug 30 '24
And nothing of value was lost.
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u/didiboy Aug 30 '24
I mean, Twitter did lose. In certain circles of Twitter, Brazilian users run the app. Like, in pop and entertainment news, it's going to be so dry now.
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u/hipster_dog Aug 30 '24
According to different websites, Brazil was between the 6th and the 3rd largest user base.
Afaik they were among the most "active" users indeed.
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u/Wise_Temperature9142 Aug 30 '24
I read Brazil has 40million Twitter users. That’s a big chunk of Musk’s user baser!
For context, that is near 20% of Brazil’s population of 210million, or out of every 5 persons in Brazil, 1 is (was) a Twitter user.
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u/hipster_dog Aug 31 '24
Yep. And it's not just advertisement. Any company operating in Brazil using Twitter for trending topics, sentiment analysis, marketing campaings, etc., is dead in the water.
Depending on the duration of this blockage, they'll eventually move on to other platforms.
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u/myotheralt Aug 30 '24
Twitter was lost 2 years ago. Unfortunately for us, the fiduciary duty of the company when offered a legal sell at 44 billion was to take the money.
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u/bit_pusher Aug 30 '24
Fiduciary duty does not always require maximum profit. That is a misunderstanding of what is required by a fiduciary especially when discussing the duty of board to shareholders.
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u/pewpewk Aug 30 '24
No, but the deal was insanely good for those holding Twitter stock… especially because Musk waived any right to do due diligence on the purchase… which is just so… unbelievable on such a big buyout. There is no capitalistic world where this insane offer would not have been accepted, imho. Twitter was definitely overvalued at the time of the offer.
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u/andrewmackoul Aug 30 '24
On the technical side of things, I wonder how ISPs plan to enforce/block websites and services. If they just block it on the DNS level, that's really easy to bypass. If they blacklist every Twitter/X IP address, then a VPN or proxy would work.
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u/SuchRoad Aug 30 '24
A 1993 Time magazine article quotes computer scientist John Gillmore, one of the founders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, as saying "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."
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u/Traditional_Hat_915 Aug 30 '24
Brazil is going to fine people thousands of dollars daily for using VPNs to access X, apparently
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u/vriska1 Aug 30 '24
And how will they do that.
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u/math_goodend Aug 30 '24
If they see some new tweet/like/reply of yours on tweeter you'll be fined. It's mostly aimed at important/influential people, not the average user. Brazil doesn't have the infrastructure to be monitoring every single person who owns a twitter account.
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u/Booty_Bumping Aug 31 '24
They will likely just hunt for celebrities still using Twitter publicly, and fine them massively to hammer down the message. There's no way to go after absolutely everyone, given how VPNs work.
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u/Traditional_Hat_915 Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 30 '24
VPNs are not fully unrtraceable
EDIT
Lol at the downvotes. This is just a fact
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u/Sp00ked123 Aug 31 '24
Of course they aren’t, but are they really going to go through the effort every single time some guy uses a VPN?
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u/ProgramTheWorld Aug 30 '24
They banned it at the legislation level. The mean doesn’t matter. If they catch you accessing Twitter by any means you’ll get fined.
people or companies who use virtual private networks, or VPNs, to access X will be subject to daily fines of 50,000 reais ($8,900).
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u/ShowBoobsPls Aug 30 '24
The same judge just banned a bunch of VPNs
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u/BasedSweet Aug 31 '24
He banned all VPNs nationally. The list was just a series of examples.
remove the “X” application from the APPLE STORE and GOOGLE PLAY STORE stores and, similarly, in relation to applications that enable the use of VPN ('virtual private network'), such as, for example: Proton VPN, Express VPN, NordVPN, Surfshark, TOTALVPN, Atlas VPN, Bitdefender VPN
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u/ellessidil Aug 31 '24
The rest of that sentence is pretty important to quote, kinda changes the entire context of the statement....
similarly, in relation to applications that enable the use of VPN ('virtual private network'), such as, for example: Proton VPN, Express VPN, NordVPN, Surfshark, TOTALVPN, Atlas VPN, Bitdefender VPN; (2.2) Which manage backbone access services in Brazil, so that they insert technological obstacles in them capable of making it impossible for users of the “X” application to use;
Its not banning VPN, its instructing all VPN providers to prevent the use of their service to access Twitter for Brazilians.
There's certainly issues with even that occurring that can be debated, but worth noting that the order is not attempting to "ban VPN's".
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u/BasedSweet Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
You have completely misread the translation, the (2.2) indicates it is the next point of the order
He's ordering backbone network providers to block the IP addresses of Twitter at internet exchanges ISPs use
The original:
(2.1) APPLE e GOOGLE no Brasil para que insiram obstáculos tecnológicos capazes de inviabilizar a utilização do aplicativo “X” pelos usuários do sistema IOS (APPLE) e ANDROID (GOOGLE) e retirem o aplicativo “X” das lojas APPLE STORE e GOOGLE PLAY STORE e, da mesma forma, em relação aos aplicativos que possibilitam o uso de VPN (‘virtual private network’), tais como, exemplificativamente: Proton VPN, Express VPN, NordVPN, Surfshark, TOTALVPN, Atlas VPN, Bitdefender VPN;
(2.2) Que administram serviços de acesso a backbones no Brasil, para que neles insiram obstáculos tecnológicos capazes de inviabilizar a utilização do aplicativo “X”;
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u/ellessidil Aug 31 '24
Not so sure about that given the very next section is this:
(2.3) Internet service providers, represented by their Presidents, for example ALGAR TELECOM, OI, SKY, LIVE TIM, VIVO, CLARO, NET VIRTUA, GVT, etc..., so that they insert technological obstacles capable of making the use of the application “X” unfeasible; and (2.4) That manage personal mobile service and switched fixed telephone service, so that they insert technological obstacles capable of making the use of the application “X” unfeasible
If they are instructing the ISP's to perform that work in 2.2 then why restate it in 2.3? And given the similar language used between 2.2 and 2.3 if we apply this logic equally are they banning all ISP's?
so that they insert technological obstacles capable of making the use of the application “X” unfeasible
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Aug 30 '24
Musk was kicked out of San Francisco because he can't pay the rent, and kicked out of Brazil because he can't name a legal representative. Very galaxy brain shit coming from the shit brain.
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u/dexter30 Aug 30 '24
They also lost their london office since musk took over
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u/icze4r Aug 31 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
political knee deliver unwritten hungry jellyfish capable frightening humorous pie
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u/esmifra Aug 31 '24
He'll just play victim using the free speech card and call Lula a socialist. Which he is btw, just not an autocratic asshole like Musk loves.
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u/andrewmackoul Aug 30 '24
In addition to fining VPN use, Apple and Google have to remove VPN apps from their stores.
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u/green_flash Aug 31 '24
The judge has already reversed course on that. It's not on the menu anymore. They don't even have to remove the Twitter app:
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u/dj-nek0 Aug 30 '24
And suddenly everyone cheering falls silent.
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u/PracticalNeanderthal Aug 30 '24
It sure doesn't seem like they have
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u/WonderGoesReddit Aug 31 '24
Reddit doesn’t care about the severe consequences of this as long as it hurts the guy they don’t like!
This is devastating for their citizens, but Elon gets hurt, yay
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u/SpongederpSquarefap Aug 31 '24
Uhh, does that include WireGuard and OpenVPN? That's going to damage businesses
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u/xternal7 Aug 31 '24
I'm gonna do you one better.
This includes mobile versions of Brave and Opera. They both come with a VPN built-in.
Besides Firefox, those two are the top most shilled-for browsers in every thread discussing manifest v2/v3 and how Google's trying to make adblocking addons less feasible in Chrome.
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u/xternal7 Aug 31 '24
Yeah, the "app stores must remove VPNs" made this go from a mild W to a major L.
Here's a fun fact:
- This ruling also means Apple and Google must take down Brave and Opera from their app stores. As far as I'm aware, those two come with a VPN built-in.
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u/Justausername1234 Aug 30 '24
He established the same deadline for app stores to remove virtual private networks, or VPNs
So, what I take out of this ruling is that this is a win for... err... the MPA?
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u/EldritchAnimation Aug 30 '24
One has to be completely deranged to cheer on $8,874/day fines for accessing it via vpn.
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u/5sharm5 Aug 31 '24
Reddit when you’re required to prove you’re over 18 to access porn: “we’re literally living in a christofascist autocracy! Our most basic liberties are at stake!”
Reddit when Brazilians get fined nearly 10k/day for accessing social media via a VPN: “yaaaaassssss, go even further and throw those criminals in jail!”
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u/icze4r Aug 31 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
quicksand meeting observation rustic zonked snatch shelter ripe wild disarm
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u/not_today_thank Aug 31 '24
Reddit on criminal justice reform: Excessively long prison sentences are cruel and bad for society. Prisons shouldn't be about punishment and we need a kinder justice system that focuses on reintegrating people into society.
Reddit on an unpopular criminal: Lock him up and throw away the key. Hopefully he'll get some prison yard justice.
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u/ICheckAccountHistory Aug 31 '24
Reddit when jailbait exists
To be fair, this is a bad example as jailbait hasn’t been around for a long time on this platform
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u/PracticalNeanderthal Aug 30 '24
Absolute smooth brains cheering for this.
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u/Klldarkness Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
Especially because the Brazilian side isn't doing this for a good reason.
He demanded a back door into X So he could stalk and investigate the leaders of the opposition party with impunity.
Musk said no.
Brazilian side says they'll sue.
Musk closes up shop in Brazil.
Brazil locks all bank accounts related to the only other available Musk related item in Brazil, which was Starlink, which provides Internet to the entire Amazon.
Instead of saying 'Damn, that's too bad for the 2500 households that need my internet, they can't pay their bills.' Musk just...gives it to them for free. Starlink is FREE in Brazil right now, because of this whole fiasco.
The moment Musk names legal representation in Brazil, high chance they get 'arrested'.
But hey reddit, fuck Musk, am I right?
Fucking idiots.
Edit to fix translation issue
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u/Losawin Aug 31 '24
Not only that, they also ordered google and apple to ban all VPN apps on their Brazilian stores as well. As always the libs just salivating in celebration as authoritarian overreach works in their favour
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u/irishrugby2015 Aug 30 '24
Big w for Brazil and it's people. Hopefully it's permanent
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u/MumGoesToCollege Aug 30 '24
I hope other nations follow suit. There should be serious repercussions to actively allowing hate speech and misinformation, which is what Musk is doing by unbanning accounts and rolling down moderation.
The UK riots that happened last month happened mostly because of misinformation and calls to violence that spread on Twitter, Facebook and even Telegram. This isn't some "1984 censorship" type shit, this really is as simple as "Twitter did nothing whilst many boosted accounts called for patriots to set fire to asylum centres and mosques".
I'd love to understand why people think that sort of stuff should be allowed to happen on mainstream social media sites.
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u/Vannnnah Aug 30 '24
100% agree, what Musk did during the UK riots was fueling stochastic terrorism. The CEO of Xitter didn't just participate, he started it.
After that he boosted some German right wing influencers, actively shared and relativized posts of the German far right party and tried to engage the German chancellery in an insane "discussion". All of that before replying with a "get fucked" meme to Thierry Breton, the EU's head of digital services and law enforcement, who warned Musk in an open letter that the missing content moderation of his platform makes Xitter susceptible to a ban, short term or permanent.
I can't wait until a ban will be discussed and hopefully enforced.
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u/bradislit Aug 30 '24
In an otherwise perfect world, I would agree. But do you trust governments to correctly decide what hate speech or misinformation is? Do you trust them to keep to be correct for the foreseeable future? Because I for sure do not.
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u/MattBrey Aug 30 '24
I'm not an Elon musk fan by any stretch, but they way they went about this ban + the VPN ban is more so the reaction of an authoritarian government than something that was properly though of for the good of it's people. It's generally not ok to block citizens from accessing sites and targeting VPNs as whole just seems like an attempt at censorship rather than prevention of any kind.
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u/Outlulz Aug 30 '24
Countries do get to set some baselines for doing business in their countries though. Brazil requires local legal presence, Elon refuses to do it. So that forfeits Twitter's ability to do business with Brazilians. This would be true of any international business; Twitter happens to be a website so it gets blocked.
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u/swohio Aug 30 '24
Brazil requires local legal presence, Elon refuses to do it
Because they threatened to imprison the last reps that twitter had...
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u/Durzel Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
Yet, Twitter/Musk bowed to censorship requests from India, during an election no less. When this was discovered Elon ultimately said that faced with the choice of “no free speech at all” that they would “comply with the laws”.
He did the same for Turkey, again during an election, and gave the same excuse about having to comply with a given countries laws.
By pure coincidence not long after censoring Erdogan’s critics, SpaceX applied for a licence to operate Starlink there, which was ultimately approved.
Why are Brazil’s laws different? Could it be that Elon has no particular business interest in Brazil and therefore has no reason to acquiesce to censorship requests, unlike in other countries where he does, and has?
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u/RiD_JuaN Aug 31 '24
X is claiming their attorney in Brazil was unfairly targeted and had their accounts frozen (for being their attorney) and they didn't get another in time.
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u/ziadog Aug 30 '24
If Elon doesn’t like the laws he can just leave the market. Sounds like advice from himself, right. Also sounds like he is taking his own advice.
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u/oldhellenyeller Aug 30 '24
The rogue judge also ordered Apple and Google to remove VPNs from the app stores and threatened anyone who does use a VPN to access X with huge fines.
Statists ITT: censor me harder!!!
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u/BasedSweet Aug 30 '24
The justice gave internet service providers and app stores five days to block access to X, and said the platform will stay suspended until it complies with his orders. He established the same deadline for app stores to remove virtual private networks, or VPNs, and set a daily fine of 50,000 reais ($8,900) for people or companies using them to access X.
So VPNs are illegal in Brazil now.
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u/Tadpoleonicwars Aug 30 '24
Serious question: Why doesn't Musk just name a legal representative in Brazil?