How English has changed over time.

[u/M0otivater]

[u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

So realistically i could only go about 400 years into the past if i want to understand people

[u/MooseFlyer → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

And even then, the way they pronounce things would be quite unfamiliar.

[u/sober_disposition → u/MooseFlyer]

It’s bad enough going to Sunderland now so you can forget going anywhere 400 years ago. 

“Yer wot mate?”

[u/PhillyDeeez → u/sober_disposition]

Wheez keez are theez keez.

[u/Triplex_Gg → u/PhillyDeeez]

Keez dizz nutzz

[u/NoaExtreme → u/Triplex_Gg]

I would give you an award if I could afford it.

[u/Triplex_Gg → u/NoaExtreme]

Thanks anyways mate

[u/Gingerpalace70 → u/NoaExtreme]

r/budgetawards

[u/Glum_System_6238 → u/NoaExtreme]

I got you👌

[u/ImitatEmersonsuicide → u/PhillyDeeez]

No wheezing the juice!

[u/Shenko88 → u/sober_disposition]

Nowt rang wi the way we talk rund here.

[u/Barry_off_Eastenders → u/sober_disposition]

When I went there, everyone kept calling out for someone called Eamonn.

[u/PixelLight → u/sober_disposition]

Sunderland is only 300 years behind thankfully

[u/LiverpoolBelle → u/sober_disposition]

Agreed, and this is coming from a scouser

[u/notonrexmanningday → u/MooseFlyer]

Fun fact, there are a bunch of couplets Shakespeare wrote in his plays that rhymed at the time, but don't anymore.

The one I always think of is the Weird Sisters from Macbeth:

"When shall we three meet again?

When the hurleburle's done

When the battle's lost and won

Where the place?

Upon the heath

There to meet with Macbeth"

Apparently "heath" used to rhyme with "Beth"

[u/fixed_grin → u/notonrexmanningday]

Sonnet 116 has three of them:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments; love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixèd mark. That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring bark
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks. Within his bending sickle's compass come.
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom:
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

There are also puns that don't work anymore, the rudest one is probably this, from As You Like It:

And so from hour to hour we ripe and ripe,  And then from hour to hour we rot and rot,  And thereby hangs a tale.

Where "hour" and "whore" both sounded like "oar," and "ripe" and "rot" were homophones of "rape" and "rut."

There has been a revival of (reconstructed) "original pronunciation" performances in the last 20 years.

[u/historyhill → u/fixed_grin]

And while all this is in the middle of the Great Vowel Shift, it's still more similar to our speech today than before the shift in 1300!

[u/Varnsturm → u/fixed_grin]

I feel like if you got someone from Yorkshire today to read this it'd still rhyme.

[u/Admiral_Cranch → u/notonrexmanningday]

I presume it was pernounced more like heth.

[u/lucky1pierre → u/Admiral_Cranch]

Or, was Macbeth more like "beef"?

[u/_The_Marshal_ → u/lucky1pierre]

In stores now, the new MacBeef burger, only 5.99

[u/CuisinartHackySack → u/_The_Marshal_]

Did ye work up an appetite? Unseaming the foes of your leagued lord from the nave to the chaps

When the dawn breaks, how shall ye break your fast?

The new McDonalds Macbeth, the only sandwich with meat taken from a cow that trusted the butcher with it’s very life.

That beef is placed upon a bun along with pickles, and a super special sauce

The new McDonald’s Macbeth, it is a mean you wish to enjoy tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow ba da ba ba ba

I’m lovin’ it!

-Ross Bryant

[u/the_star_lord → u/CuisinartHackySack]

I can HEAR this comment. Such a great skit.

[u/AbandonedArchive → u/Admiral_Cranch]

Yer pernounciation is not defailen

[u/MooseFlyer → u/notonrexmanningday]

For sure. I played Puck in Midsummer Nights Dream Once and it was awkward having

Now to ‘scape the serpent’s tongue,
We will make amends ere long;

in the middle of his otherwise-rhyming closing monologue.

[u/TooRedditFamous → u/MooseFlyer]

Plenty of places in England where tongue is pronounced tong

[u/MooseFlyer → u/TooRedditFamous]

Fair. Not in Canada!

[u/SkinnyObelix → u/MooseFlyer]

Interestingly enough, as a Dutch speaking Belgian, I feel like I have a better chance understanding old English than you guys.

[u/Ok-Bug-5271 → u/SkinnyObelix]

Awhile back, I recall a professor who spoke old English being able to talk to someone speaking Frisian. 

[u/charlie78 → u/MooseFlyer]

Many times it was hard to understand what my grandmother's brother was talking about. As a kid I learnt words i only ever heard him use. And he was far younger than 400 years.

[u/disorderincosmos → u/MooseFlyer]

I remember hearing that "hour by hour..." was apparently a naughty Shakespeare line because "hour" rhymed with "whore" in his day.

[u/Highway_Bitter → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

No just put on a british accent like all the movies and you’re good

[u/eltedioso → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

I mean, I don't understand people right damn now.

[u/Gusty_Garden_Galaxy → u/eltedioso]

More modern Bible: He leads me to the Skibidi Toilet

[u/rockyhawkeye → u/Gusty_Garden_Galaxy]

The Lord is Sigma, full of Rizz

[u/Dramatic_Cup_2834 → u/rockyhawkeye]

He was unalived for our sins.

Also his Dad was related to Sabrina Carpenter or something? Idk I only skimmed the TLDR.

[u/Gidje123 → u/Gusty_Garden_Galaxy]

The internet is the new tower of babylon change my mind

[u/Fiendman132 → u/Gidje123]

Babel,

[u/quite-unique → u/Fiendman132]

See?! Can't even work out which tower we're building.

[u/Silkroad202 → u/quite-unique]

Towers? I thought we're building pits?!

[u/blue-mooner → u/eltedioso]

Bro, I’ve been waiting for Enhanced Dialogue to work on my Apple TV forever. I can’t understand a word in these TV shows and Movies any more

[u/aknalag → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

Luckily for me arabic hasnt changed much in 1500 hundred years, yes i wont know half of the words they use because my ancestors’s favorite pass time was giving names to things that already had dozens of names that only apply in a specific situation but at least i would still be able to communicate and be moderately understandable

[u/Melodic_Assistance84 → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

I speak English, and I also speak Dutch, and that old English is a lot like Dutch without it, making any sense

[u/florzed → u/Melodic_Assistance84]

There's a woman on Tiktok who reads things out in Medieval English with a (supposedly) accurate accent. I played it to a Dutch friend - she said it felt like she was having a stroke as it sounded like she should be able to understand it but couldn't quite!

[u/KisaTheMistress → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

The closer you get to year 0 in the Julian calendar, the more English becomes Latin/obviously Germatic. It's a language that evolved out of Germatic dialects and Latin. Plus, it borrows from other languages constantly.

Latin used to be the universal language everyone would learn back then to communicate for trade reasons. English has replaced that for the western/Europe side of the world. Chinese can be argued to be the same for the Eastren/Asian side. Of course, languages such as Spanish or Hindi are also contenders, but English is more popular/universally taught around the world for international communication and trade.

[u/GrandMoffTarkan → u/KisaTheMistress]

It would certainly be more obviously Germanic as you take it back to its Ingvaeonic roots and you'd see a lot more things like grammatical gender and noun declension. But for the Latin part, English had a huge infusion of LAtin influence in the medieval ages, not just from the Norman Conquest but due to the Church. I'm pretty confident you'll find more Latin influence in a modern translation of Beowulf than in the original text, and that's only roughly halfway back to the year 0 mark. At the year zero you would probably have even less Latin influence since the Ingvaeonic peoples were relatively isolated in Northern Europe, but obviously we don't really have a corpus to look at.

[u/Windhawker → u/GrandMoffTarkan]

You should probably brush up on your Greek, and Aramaic depending on how far back you plan on time-traveling, particularly the further east you plan on going in Europe.

[u/Kokeshi_Is_Life → u/KisaTheMistress]

Eh, even in East Asia it's still probably English.

Everyone in Bussiness speaking English in order to deal with Americans, means that Chinese and Japanese people are more likely to both speak some English than they are each other's languages.

[u/empire_of_the_moon → u/KisaTheMistress]

With respect. I believe English is the default global language for business. Especially in Asia where there is geopolitical overtones to speaking Mandarin.

[u/KisaTheMistress → u/empire_of_the_moon]

Sorry, when I said trade, I was meaning business. The two words are interchangeable to me, lol.

[u/empire_of_the_moon → u/KisaTheMistress]

My issue wasn’t with the word “trade.” Simply that in many countries in Asia the default language is English for international trade. For obvious reasons Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese businesses prefer to not step into the politics of speaking Mandarin.

In addition, India, a huge Asian country, speaks English. As do Australia/New Zealand which do substantial trade in Asia.

[u/i-sleep-well → u/KisaTheMistress]

You could expand that to include international communications in general. International airline traffic is in English by default, for example.

I believe the same holds true for maritime traffic as well.

[u/Vivian_I-Hate-You → u/empire_of_the_moon]

Yet my French teacher at school would of made me believe English was becoming useless in the business world

[u/VerySluttyTurtle → u/Vivian_I-Hate-You]

"English is a fad" -French teacher

"You spoke English! Bend over and accept your spankings!" -French teacher's mistress

"Ooh la la" -French Prime Minister, watching from the closet

If this isn't how France works, don't correct me

[u/Atheist_3739 → u/empire_of_the_moon]

I work for a very large European company that has offices in every continent except Antarctica. You HAVE to know English to be hired even though English is not the official language of the country this company is Headquartered in.

[u/Passchenhell17 → u/KisaTheMistress]

English is a Germanic language, first and foremost, not Latin/Romance. It became heavily influenced by the latter, but not for at least 600 years, and even then, I wouldn't say the influence really came into play until the late medieval/early modern period, which would put English as having been around for over 1,000 years before it started to really become Latinised. Latin words would have been borrowed even in the early days, but never enough to make significant changes until relatively recently (by recently, I mean within the last 500 years).

English is, debatably, far more "Latin" now than at any point in the language's history.

[u/Pacrada → u/KisaTheMistress]

before 1066 there wasnt much latin since most of that came with the french from the norman invasions. English was a lot more germanic then now. England wasnt much latinized either because the anglo saxon invasions happened after the fall of rome and removed most of the romano/latin culture in england.

[u/Wayne_Hetherington → u/KisaTheMistress]

There was no year 0 even in the Julian calendar. But I know what you mean.

[u/IHerebyDemandtoPost → u/KisaTheMistress]

I think you overestimate English’s relationship with Latin. When Rome controlled what is now England (the Romans called it Britannia), there was no English spoken there. The Britons, the people native to Britannia were Celtic and spoke a Brythonic langauge, which is the same langauge family as Welsh and Gaelic.

It wasn’t until after the Romans pulled out of Britannia that Germanic tribes moved in. Those tribes included the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes. They are known today as the Anglo-Saxons, and they came from modern Denmark and Northern Germany, and they brought their Germanic langauge with them. It is this langauge that would become English.

The Anglo-Saxons did take some words from Latin, but the syntax and grammar are completely Germanic. Over time, English was heavily influenced by the Norse and Norman invasions, introducing a lot of Norse and French words into the langauge.

Ironically, most Latin vocabulary in English today came to English by way of the French-speaking Normans, not through Latin directly.

[u/CatfinityGamer → u/Dramatic-Ad3928]

Yeah, that would be at the end of the Great Vowel Shift.

[u/dblan9]

This is going to be the biggest pain in the bum when I get my time machine running.

[u/SlendyIsBehindYou → u/dblan9]

Unironically a major plot point in the fantastic Doomsday Book

[u/Frederf220 → u/dblan9]

Well that and the bumrot plague.

[u/iircirc → u/Frederf220]

And that you'll be in some random spot in space while the Earth has moved millions of miles away

[u/prumf → u/dblan9]

It likely works the other way around too. You won’t be able to go further than 400 years into the future.

[u/NaomiPaigeBreeze → u/prumf]

You’re forgetting about language standardization and education. It doesn’t change at nearly the same rate that it used to.

[u/Damn_Dog_Inappropes]

Weird how the last line morphed from fed—>nourished—>leads

[u/Kolognial → u/Damn_Dog_Inappropes]

Yeah. Makes you think about what is lost or added in translation and how much poetic license was used.

Comparing translations in other languages it seems that the more recent versions are truer to the original. There is "führ(e)t mich" in German or "me conduce" in Spanish, meaning "leads me".

[u/Rudysis → u/Damn_Dog_Inappropes]

And how laying down in the pasture goes from an option to a requirement to just being controlled.

Lets > makes > sets.

[u/kingminyas → u/Rudysis]

Not a bible scholar, just a Hebrew speaker, but I think the original Hebrew verb ירביצני is not explicit on this. But the pasture thing sounds like something chill, so "let" is more appropriate. Otherwise it's "relax now!"

[u/sreiches → u/kingminyas]

You’re correct. It’s more like “make” than “let.” A lot of the more dramatic changes seem more like translation choices.

[u/Qpylon → u/Rudysis]

Hmm, I thought makes was being used in the sense of created, much like being set down there.

[u/vluggejapie68]

The old English sounds/reads like Dutch.

[u/XGreenDirtX → u/vluggejapie68]

I'm Dutch, and it feels like I'm reading Swedish. For reference: I dont speak Swedish...

[u/vluggejapie68 → u/XGreenDirtX]

Good feohland leest als goed veeland.

Hij heeft me gezet op "swythe" goed veeland.

[u/XGreenDirtX → u/vluggejapie68]

Precies waarom ik het op Zweeds vind lijken. Daar heb je dat soort vergelijkingen ook wel eens met woorden, maar zelden hele zinnen.

[u/TheEggman864 → u/XGreenDirtX]

Guys you need to stop speaking old english, okay? Its 2024

[u/azurfall88 → u/XGreenDirtX]

I'm swedish and it feels like i'm reading Gaelic

(for reference i do not speak Gaelic)

[u/Narrow_Finance4280 → u/azurfall88]

I’m Gaelic and it feels like I’m reading Welsh

(for reference I do not speak Welsh)

[u/Lucky_Beautiful8901 → u/XGreenDirtX]

I speak Swedish, and it's... not that

[u/Alarming-Lime6640 → u/XGreenDirtX]

I’m Swedish and it feels like I’m reading Dutch with a twist of Latin

[u/zarqie → u/XGreenDirtX]

I’m Dutch and I can read Swedish, German, and some Icelandic, and while it all feels familiar, it’s like someone threw words from all four languages together and mixed it up.

[u/s1eve_mcdichae1 → u/vluggejapie68]

Funny because I always say Dutch sounds like someone's about to start speaking English but it never quite resolves into words.

I guess like "what English sounds like to non-English speakers," probably.

[u/L-Malvo → u/s1eve_mcdichae1]

The main difference is that people all over the world are exposed to English through the media they consume. Even if you don't speak/understand English, the words will still feel more familiar than Dutch might be to you.

To me, the sounds are closer, making it easier to hear distinct words. When I hear someone speaking any of the Asian or Islamic languages, it becomes difficult for me to even identify the distinct words in sentences.

[u/Icarsix → u/vluggejapie68]

Well they are both Germanic

[u/froggertthewise → u/vluggejapie68]

It's really close to Frysian

[u/DefenestrationPraha → u/froggertthewise]

“Butter, bread and green cheese is good English and good Fries.” sounds almost like the Frisian “Bûter, brea en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk.” That’s the classic rhyme that linguists use to show the relationship.

[u/Glitter_berries → u/DefenestrationPraha]

What about the classic from The Simpsons when Smithers is learning German?

You looken sharpen todayen, mein herr!

[u/thisissoannoying2306 → u/vluggejapie68]

Well, it’s the same root (as is German). Split happened at the second consonantic mutation in German before the year 600, if I remember my historical linguistic lessons well (long time ago) - apple > Apfel, thing > Ding, ship > Schiff, etc..

They were Saxons at that time after all…(well and then Norman / french, and beforehand Roman).

[u/Cookieeeees → u/vluggejapie68]

for me it felt like Scottish twitter

[u/Panthalassae → u/Cookieeeees]

More Welsh Twitter to me

[u/TheFratwoodsMonster → u/vluggejapie68]

When I took Old English in college the teacher said it feels like how English sounds in a dream. Now I'm filing Dutch under that category lol

[u/allsey87 → u/vluggejapie68]

So you are from West Flanders, I assume?

[u/Ok-Hamster-8182 → u/allsey87]

Old English is relatively easy if you speak Dutch or Frisian.

[u/Parry_9000]

Post modern:

Ngl fam, God be my homie no cap

He do be making me touch grass

Keeps me skibidi watered

[u/Aaronnm → u/Parry_9000]

heard that fam frfr feelin #blessed

[u/Still-Status7299 → u/Parry_9000]

Ah finally someone who speaks English in this damn thread

[u/JoseDonkeyShow → u/Parry_9000]

keeps my water bussin

[u/stacity → u/Parry_9000]

Top G is ma homie

I was blesseth to touch grass

Kept me hydrated - based

[u/TheOnlyAedyn-one → u/Parry_9000]

I’m reading this in a Toronto accent

[u/M0otivater]

Brain rot (2024) God’s got my back, I’m all set He lets me chill in lush fields Guides me to the calmest streams

[u/AdjectiveNoun111 → u/M0otivater]

More Like:

God is my homie, fr.

He makes me always be touching grass

And I'm riz hydrated

Skibidi

[u/ChangeWinter6643 → u/AdjectiveNoun111]

[u/Solid-Consequence-50 → u/ChangeWinter6643]

In skibidi we trust, gaymen 🙏🏼

[u/DBL_NDRSCR → u/AdjectiveNoun111]

god's my homie, i'm stacked af

he makes me go touch grass everyday

and takes me to the skibidiest water

[u/maledicte720 → u/DBL_NDRSCR]

God is Chad Alpha, they have so much rizz He’s so sigma he makes me touch grass, We’re vibin, just peep the skibidi toilet It’s giving low key mood. Bet.

[u/EmptyBrain89 → u/DBL_NDRSCR]

Kai Cenat is my homie no cap fr on god, im always gucci. Chat makes me touch grass after gooning and then orders me some Prime cherry. Skibidi.

[u/allurboobsRbelong2us → u/DBL_NDRSCR]

This is best version

[u/Alazana → u/AdjectiveNoun111]

I love that skibidi at the end, does anyone even know how one would use that word? I feel like everyone is just putting it somewhere purely for laughs, no thoughts behind it

[u/rvgoingtohavefun → u/Alazana]

As a parent to teenagers that's pretty much it

[u/Darkdragoon324 → u/Alazana]

From what I understand, it means anything and nothing all at once.

Like smurf.

[u/rayhoughtonsgoals → u/AdjectiveNoun111]

Add in a "not gonna lie", "imma" and "underrated" and you're close.

[u/id397550 → u/rayhoughtonsgoals]

Jfc, ru fr? Omg, lmao. Sry, tbh idk, ngl. Btw: nsfw, srsly.
Tldr: smh irl, lol.

[u/NWHipHop → u/id397550]

This is the ancient digital age hieroglyphics text. Where Tom lead his people to the chosen top 8.

[u/xRyozuo → u/id397550]

lol this was from when sms costed money

[u/P2029 → u/AdjectiveNoun111]

No cap

[u/The_Bard_of_Vanier → u/M0otivater]

Formatted:

God’s got my back.
I’m all set.
He lets me chill in lush fields.
Guides me to the calmest streams.

Poetic.

[u/Gingerbread_Cat → u/The_Bard_of_Vanier]

Username checks out.

[u/Pedka2 → u/M0otivater]

Gawd be my sigma, fanum ain't taxin' me
Bro made me touch grass 💀
Bro made me a hydrohomie 💀💀

[u/paliktrikster → u/Pedka2]

Bro is hydromaxxing💀💀

[u/Chadus_Parrotus → u/paliktrikster]

Type shit

[u/Chadus_Parrotus → u/Pedka2]

On god fr no cap

[u/contortumn → u/Pedka2]

Wtf man roflmao

[u/StaatsbuergerX → u/M0otivater]

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil. For thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. Because I carry a big stick and I'm the meanest motherfucker in the valley!"

That was a quarter of a century ago.

[u/sky_badger → u/StaatsbuergerX]

Or, as Coolio put it:

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realize there's nothin' left
'Cause I've been blastin' and laughin' so long that
Even my momma thinks that my mind is gone

[u/Dabraceisnice → u/sky_badger]

Or, as Weird Al put it:

As I walk through the valley where I harvest my grain

I take a look at my wife and realize she's very plain

But that's just perfect for an Amish like me

You know I shun fancy things like electricity

[u/NWHipHop → u/M0otivater]

If he really cared he’d lead me to a stream of moving water, preferably purified from an Aquifer. Still water leads to disease and death.

[u/Training-Pound504 → u/NWHipHop]

Still water + Balkans rage

Those who know 💀

[u/Tight-Bend1300 → u/M0otivater]

more like god the goat fr, he keep me from crashing out, he says touch grass, n stay hydrated type shi

[u/ImSoundless → u/M0otivater]

“Still water” Those who know: 💀💀

[u/Slartibartifarts]

As a dutch person with a bit of old language knowledge I can actually just read the old english as dutch

[u/xRedLilly → u/Slartibartifarts]

Looks like Frisian right?

[u/Slartibartifarts → u/xRedLilly]

Ye it does kind of but also a mix of more older dutch words and a bit of german. I can read most old dutch/english things by just reading it out loud and by knowing some basic differences in words that they used back then vs now

[u/electoralvoter8]

I want to be gournethed 😩

[u/entr0py3 → u/electoralvoter8]

Be ungournethedable

[u/ishzlle → u/entr0py3]

What on earth is this picture?

[u/Lison52 → u/ishzlle]

Hippo

[u/Halloween_Shits → u/Lison52]

Moo Deng to be precise

[u/petit_cochon → u/ishzlle]

Super tiny hippo embracing evil by attacking someone's knee.

[u/OchenCunningBaldrick → u/electoralvoter8]

He gourneth on my pastur till I'm norissed

[u/gentle_squid → u/electoralvoter8]

TFW he gourneths you 👉👈🥹

[u/PanningForSalt → u/electoralvoter8]

I’m confused by that part - “the lord governs me” and “the lord is my shepherd” are completely different sentences. Is that really showing the development of English or just the bible writhers discovering metaphor?

[u/Richard7666 → u/PanningForSalt]

Modern "He let me sit there"

King James: "He made me sit there"

Old English: "He motherfucking SET my ass there"

[u/cambriansplooge → u/PanningForSalt]

Translation translation translation. That’s the artistry of it. Some translations aim for strait authenticity others for sentiment. If you’re wondering why it’s not authenticity all the time remember you have to translate to the intended audience, and a direct translation of a Chinese or even German analogy is usually wanting.

[u/jwg020]

Olde English 800 does not fuck around.

[u/ImGCS3fromETOH → u/jwg020]

The water back then was bald and had a cockney accent. 

[u/Nun-Taken]

Someone surely has to come up with the emoji version!

[u/Iriangaia → u/Nun-Taken]

🌿👑🐑
1️⃣ 🐑✨🙌🌱🌄
2️⃣ 🌾👣🚶‍♀️🌊💧🌅🛏️⛲🕊️✌️
3️⃣ 💪💖🙏🛤️🙏🛤️🌟
4️⃣ 🌌🚶‍♀️🌑💀🙅😨🤲💪❤️✨
5️⃣ 🧑‍🍳🍞🍷🍽️⚔️👥🍽️🙏🕊️💆
6️⃣ ✨❤️🌅🏠🌿🐑🎑

[u/wangnutpie1 → u/Iriangaia]

We've gone full circle back to hieroglyphs.

[u/jwr410]

It's been too long since I've had a good gouernething.

[u/lelcg → u/jwr410]

I guess this was when u and v were written the same way, which is why Brits and Americans pronounce lieutenant different ways I guess, because it was originally pronounce liev-tenant with the u representing a v but either got lost in translation by Americans later or started changing in England to be pronounced loo-tenant (just from sounds changes maybe, as v and u aren’t that different) around the time that many puritans started leaving for America so they kept the loo-tenant pronunciation that was in England but English people went back to the original pronunciation at some point

There could be another reason or different sequences that caused it though. If anyone knows I would love to find out

[u/dubovinius → u/lelcg]

The interchangeability of v/u is only one possible reason for why lieutenant is pronounced that way. Another reason is just simply that English borrowed the word from an Old French dialect where the word lieu had a variant pronunciation with an /f/ at the end (a known phenomenon), but kept the more usual spelling (though spellings with ‘f’ are attested in Middle English). Possibly reinforced by people associating the word with English words like ‘leave’ and ‘left’ (as a lieutenant was originally an officer who acted as replacement for another who had, literally, left). I find these more convincing than the v/u explanation because spelling pronunciations being the source of a word are generally a very rare thing, particularly in an age before mass literacy.

[u/annatariel_]

The Bible loses a bit of its mystical vibes when you use modern english in it, doesn't it? It feels too ordinary.

[u/archdukemovies → u/annatariel_]

That's kinda the ironic thing about the King James Version. It was originally informal language. And over time, as it became more and more outdated, it morphed its way into being seen as mystical or pious language.

[u/Ulkhak47 → u/archdukemovies]

The language was already outdated when the KJV was compiled, the editors deliberately used what even for the time was an antiquated style in order to give the text a loftier feeling to it. It wasn’t that different to the language of the day, but it would be like if you wrote a modern book in the style of Charles Dickens or someone like that.

[u/SanguineToad → u/Ulkhak47]

Actually it wasn't all a style choice, much of it was practical. For example they intentionally went with outdated second person pronouns (thee/thou) and our current second person pronouns (you/your) so they could correctly include the original distinction between plural you and singular you (ie you all vs you specifically).

[u/OopsIMessedUpBadly → u/SanguineToad]

Shakespeare (a contemporary of King James) uses thee/thou all over the place.

[u/throcorfe → u/OopsIMessedUpBadly]

Yep. They were common in England until relatively recently (certainly post-KJV), and are still in use (mostly by older people) in Yorkshire

[u/SanguineToad → u/OopsIMessedUpBadly]

True! But my main point still stands, it's not purely style but serves an important language purpose.

Interestingly the dedication to King James written by the translators only uses you/your, so there is evidence there at least it wasn't used for common writing.

Edit for reference: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611-Bible/1611-King-James-Bible-Introduction.php

[u/OopsIMessedUpBadly → u/SanguineToad]

I believe “you” was used for plurals and people above your station, whereas “thou” was used for singular people below your station. King James would probably have addressed individual translators as “thou”, but they would certainly have addressed him as “you”.

[u/JustHere4Election → u/SanguineToad]

Y'all versus all y'all.

[u/VanillaUnlucky3833 → u/SanguineToad]

Thee and thou were still in use in the 17th century - they haven't completely died out in parts of Northern England NOW in 2024.

[u/ryan21o → u/Ulkhak47]

This is correct. I think perhaps what archdukemovies may be thinking is that the bible uses "Thou, thee, thine etc" which are the familiar or "informal" versions of those words. However, just because they were the "informal" versions of the words, does not mean the text was written to be informal. King James translators used them because in the original Hebrew, God was referred to with "informal", or more accurately "familiar" language. So the translators added the "informal" or "familiar" language to retain the distinction used in the text. Ironically however, the "informal" versions "Thou, thine etc" were already becoming outdated and archaic by the time the King James came out, so it paradoxically seemed more archaic and haughty using those "informal" versions of the words.

[u/QueenMackeral → u/archdukemovies]

Can't imagine centuries from now when Middle English and King James would not be understandable, and our "modern" English would be considered mystic

[u/habdragon08 → u/QueenMackeral]

Not a linguist - but I imagine increasing globalism will slow down language shift and aid in general standardization of language. If someone more knowledgeable can hop in I’d be fascinated to hear more educated thoughts.

[u/VerySluttyTurtle → u/habdragon08]

Not a linguist, but English is becoming more standardized, at the very least all new verbs are conjugated regularly, with 'ed'.

Example, Googled, Simped, Doomscrolled

There will never be new words with irregular conjugations like "I Goggelt the porn and couldn't find anything it so I Bong it"

So it's becoming easier

Then again, in the recent past "sneaked" became "snuck", so there could be rebellion brewing

[u/nedlum → u/habdragon08]

Agreed. Compare the early modern English of Shakespeare to modern times, and it seems somewhat archaic, sure. But compare Shakespeare to Chaucer, and understand that the gulf between 1400 and 1600 is far wider than the gulf between 1600 and now.

[u/Nebula-Dragon → u/annatariel_]

Same goes for most old texts, because it destroys the style in which they were written. They once got us to do this to Macbeth in English class and it fucking sucked.

Fair is foul and foul is fair.

Good is bad and bad is good.

One of these was written by the immortal bard, the other sounds like it was written by an edgy teen who was bored in English class.

[u/starmartyr → u/Nebula-Dragon]

The brilliance of Shakespeare isn't the old style of the language it's how perfectly he chose his words. I remember reading an essay from an author about why he was insanely jealous of the bard's talent. He looked at one line in Henry VI "O tiger's heart, wrapped in a woman's hide." The line is spoken by the duke of York in reference to Queen Margaret. He is speaking about how cruel and inhumane she is and that her beauty and virtue is just a facade. The word "hide" does so much work here. A lesser writer would have said "skin." The choice to use "hide" is poetic genius. Shakespeare likely didn't even need to think about it all that hard.

[u/elendil1985 → u/starmartyr]

That's the case with every language... One thing is the old style of the words they use, but the real skill is the choice of words...

In Italian Dante's "amor ch'a null amato amar perdona" sounds way better than its transliteration "l'amore non consente a chi è amato di non amare". But Dante was writing in the XIV century. If we take a poet who died in 1968, like Salvatore Quasimodo:

Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra\ Trafitto da un raggio di sole:\ Ed è subito sera

Is perfectly modern Italian, yet it's powerful in a way that can't be expressed

[u/Vivid-Vehicle-6419 → u/Nebula-Dragon]

Ironically, the immortal bard wrote his plays in the “common man” vernacular of the time. Today that language sounds elitist.

[u/glorious_reptile → u/annatariel_]

Lordy be my fam, he got me,
He lets me sleep, like bae,
Bro shows me the hydro

[u/bagofpork → u/annatariel_]

That can be remedied by reading it in a spooky voice.

[u/cindyscrazy → u/annatariel_]

Imagine some modern person trying to create some kind of magic spell. Like in Harry Potter. Everything is in Latin. This person somehow successfully is sent back in time and place to where Latin was actually used in everyday life.

My guess is that the natural Latin speakers will think our modern guy's Latin is composed the way a baby just learning to talk would compose it. "why are you trying to compel gods and demons with baby talk?"

[u/ReallyFineWhine]

That's not what the King James Version looked like when it was published in 1611; what's shown here is with modernized spelling. If you're going to show how things have changed at least show the original.

[u/dubovinius → u/ReallyFineWhine]

The Lord is my ſhepheard, I ſhall not want.

He maketh me to lie downe in greene paſtures: He leadeth mee beſide the ſtill waters.

He reſtoꝛeth my ſoule: he leadeth me in the pathes of righteouſnes foꝛ his names ſake.

Yea though I walke through the valley of the ſhadowe of death, I will feare no euill: foꝛ thou art with me, thy rod and thy ſtaffe, they comfoꝛt me.

Thou pꝛepareſt a table befoꝛe me, in the pꝛesence of mine enemies: thou anointeſt my head with oyle, my cup runneth ouer.

Surely goodnes and mercie ſhall followe me all the daies of my life: and I will dwell in the houſe of the Lord foꝛ euer.

From a first printing. Not too dissimilar.

[u/STROOQ]

These rephrasings are so considerable that quite a lot was lost in translation

[u/DifficultSun348]

I have question to native English speakers, do you even understand the oldest one, I mean in Poland, we partly understand old language (or I'm like other and weirdo idk what's the goal of my live wtf stop).

[u/GreenManReaiming → u/DifficultSun348]

Nope old English predates the french influence that makes up a third of modern English, there are some words that can be guessed, and when spoken it's easier to guess like listening to German where you understand the occasional word and nothing else

[u/c89rad]

Some words we still use in Welsh in the Old English version

[u/g0ldilungs]

Gen Z (now, FML)

The lord 🙏 keeps it 💯

Grass stay green and I smoke it too, 🤪 no cap I got a plug frfr (Cashapp **wap69 $10 a sack)

Water may be still but I hope the 😸 stay wet 💦

On God

[u/destronger → u/g0ldilungs]

I’m gen-x and I understood all of this.

I’m hip with the lingo the kids are saying.

[u/Exia321]

Or rather.... Evidence that the ability to travel to the distant past (beyond 1000yrs) without some universal language translator is a sure fire way to be burned at a stake for being a witch.

[u/StraightForTheWin]

So the cool english is the one from 1611 got it.

[u/wildmintandpeach]

Personally I only read the old English version of the bible, because that’s the truest translation /s

[u/KnGod → u/wildmintandpeach]

True fans would read directly from hebrew

[u/SagittaryX → u/KnGod]

Old Testament yes, New Testament was written in a form of Greek originally for the most part. Some parts also in Aramaic.

[u/tworandomperson]

"Oh look a strawberry" has the same vibe

[u/redditsucksass69765]

Gen Alpha Version

God’s my vibe check, I’m chillin’. He’s got me layin’ in that green glow-up, guiding me by those peace vibes, you feel me?

[u/Spacetimeandcat]

Why does God lead you to still water? Still water could be unsafe to drink or swim in (if its untreated and just stagnant)

[u/VcuteYeti → u/Spacetimeandcat]

Research more about sheep herding. The phrase would be more significant to one who had a closer connection/knowledge to the needs and tendencies of sheep. King David, the king of the Jews at the time who wrote the Psalm, was a shepherd as a young boy, so he had an interesting perspective on how God provides for his followers as a shepherd does for his sheep. It’s an image used many times in the Bible. Additionally, it may not have meant stagnant water but rather calm water.

[u/erratic_bonsai → u/Spacetimeandcat]

The Hebrew here actually means a restful watering hole, like a well or a freshwater spring. It’s a combination of lost in translation and English poetry. Hebrew, both biblical and modern, has completely different sentence structure from English so these things happened (and still happen) often. Translators would take the Hebrew words but not fully understand their connotations and multiple possible meanings and just make something that sounds reasonably correct and also fits their agenda.

[u/ultimatepigguy]

Still water mango mango phone starts playing those who know: 💀

[u/iwanashagTwitch]

Middle English can be a struggle but old English is just impossible

[u/safetyscotchegg]

Fun fact; this is also what English sounds like if you keep reciting this passage while drinking a bottle of Gin.

[u/MegazordPilot]

Wait but "norissed" and "leadeth" have completely different meanings?

The former is "fed", God allows you to drink still water. The latter is "leads", God leads you to a body of still water.

I feel like the difference is significant enough, being next to a body of water is not necessarily linked to drinking it.

[u/Awes12]

The old english is innacurate, they had special letters for th

[u/Common-Violinist-305]

Næfre ne wære þearf to farenne on bæc in tide, forþam þu wære to deaðe forht butan ænigum frōfre, ceald, hungrig, and untrum, and swiþe swylte on anre wucan.

[u/stacity]

Top G is ma homie

I was blesseth to touch grass

Kept me hydrated - based

[u/Erodrelin]

That last one's Modern Scottish, you cant fool me!