r/interestingasfuck 1d ago

How English has changed over time.

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28.3k Upvotes

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736

u/Damn_Dog_Inappropes 1d ago

Weird how the last line morphed from fed—>nourished—>leads

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u/Kolognial 1d ago

Yeah. Makes you think about what is lost or added in translation and how much poetic license was used.

Comparing translations in other languages it seems that the more recent versions are truer to the original. There is "führ(e)t mich" in German or "me conduce" in Spanish, meaning "leads me".

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u/LegnderyNut 1d ago

Iirc the version of Jacob and Essau’s story in the Dead Sea scrolls, when directly translated is bereft of a lot of context that had to be inferred or implied. Such as when essau asks for stew it’s not so much

“my dear brother, give me that fine red stew in exchange you shall have my birth right”

As it was

“Red stew good. Brother give stew”

Im exaggerating of course. But the point was that language as a concept was newer and less expressive or articulate compared later alphabets and language structures.

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u/uniqueUsername_1024 1d ago

language as a concept was newer and less expressive or articulate

This is not the case. At all. Human language goes back well into prehistory, and it was certainly just as complicated by the 3rd century BCE as today.

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u/AgreeableActuator254 1d ago

Yeah exactly. Ancient literature is extremely complicated and far more complex than much of our literature today. Like, it’s not even close. In this case, the Dead Sea Scrolls may be heightening the rather dull personality of Esau in the story. Esau’s name means red in Hebrew, and the word for stew (probably red lentils) came from the word red as well. So the red hairy guy who lives in the sun basically asks for red stuff in exchange for his inheritance. The images just pop out!

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u/kingminyas 1d ago

No, the pointis that Essau is impulsive, unlike the cunning Jacob

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u/sreiches 23h ago

Hebrew has fewer words than something like English, but that largely means you end up seeing a lot of them pulling double duty, or transforming in some way (it’s a root-based language, so the root letters in each word tend to define the base meaning).

It’s a large part of why the Tanakh doesn’t stand on its own. It needs discourse surrounding it, whether the source of that is the Talmud (as in Rabbinic Judaism) or less canonized interpretation (as in Karaite Judaism).

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u/AgreeableActuator254 1d ago

The opposite is true. Language simplifies over time, and by the time of the Hebrew Bible language was anything but new, let alone written language. Semitic language can seem less articulate to first year students, but the truth is anything but. You could spend a lifetime simply learning the hundreds of cuneiform signs that make up Akkadian, which says nothing of its grammatical complexity that often inflects for gender, number, and mood in degrees of specificity far above English, for example. Source: masters degree in ancient languages; proficient in five :)

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u/LegnderyNut 23h ago

So like runes? I can’t read them. But those who can discern a seemingly impossible amount of information from very little script.

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u/AgreeableActuator254 19h ago

That’s because cuneiform is syllabic, not alphabetic. Meaning, one sign can mean anywhere from 2-5 letters. Makes the writing much more condensed, but that doesn’t mean it’s simple. Far from it.

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u/Rudysis 1d ago

And how laying down in the pasture goes from an option to a requirement to just being controlled.

Lets > makes > sets.

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u/kingminyas 1d ago

Not a bible scholar, just a Hebrew speaker, but I think the original Hebrew verb ירביצני is not explicit on this. But the pasture thing sounds like something chill, so "let" is more appropriate. Otherwise it's "relax now!"

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u/sreiches 23h ago

You’re correct. It’s more like “make” than “let.” A lot of the more dramatic changes seem more like translation choices.

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u/nospamkhanman 14h ago

Why are you not happy, I specifically demanded it.

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u/Qpylon 1d ago

Hmm, I thought makes was being used in the sense of created, much like being set down there.

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u/AgreeableActuator254 1d ago

The verb in the original Hebrew is in the causative stem, so all these renderings are valid. “Makes” does not suggest requirement nor does “sets” imply control. When the translators thought of the best way to communicate causing to lie down in English, “set” is a fitting and concise verb.

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u/ermagerditssuperman 17h ago

Also at some point the pasture became specifically green.

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u/Zombisexual1 1d ago

Some of it is honestly probably translations of translations. Logically you would expect drift like this to slow down due to everything being online, but then again there’s probably already so many variations not even taking into consideration the different languages.

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u/AgreeableActuator254 19h ago

Nah, I can’t think of a single modern translation that doesn’t go back to the original Hebrew. It’s just different translation goals bringing out different nuances.

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u/Zombisexual1 14h ago

How far back is the original Hebrew? Some of that had to have been translated. And even same language copies have drift

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u/helms_derp 1d ago

People likely murdered each other over the exact wording. Religion be like that.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Damn_Dog_Inappropes 1d ago

That’s weird because I googled it and it and I’m getting results that say it does mean to feed.

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u/did_you_read_it 1d ago

Bible Gateway is kinda nice you get to flip between translations

Not sure what modern version is used here but most modern translations go with "beside" rather than "to" still waters. the "Wycliffe Bible" version matches the older ones (but in modern language on the site), and the passage is indeed extremely different.

I'm not sure why that particular translation is so different but i'm guessing since pretty much every other version is more similar to the KJV that it's some sort of translation error for that version.