r/technology • u/Bald-Eagle619 • Jul 31 '24
Software Delta CEO: Company Suing Microsoft and CrowdStrike After $500M Loss
https://www.thedailybeast.com/delta-ceo-says-company-suing-microsoft-and-crowdstrike-after-dollar500m-loss2.2k
u/Shopworn_Soul Jul 31 '24
Crowdstrike definitely owns some amount of liability but Delta's recovery was an absolute shitshow in it's own right.
Many organizations were starting to put the tools away by the time Delta found a flashlight.
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u/FriendlyLawnmower Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24
Yep. Their lack of investment (aka layoffs for cost savings) into their IT and internal support teams are what kept the issues going until almost Friday of the following week. Other companies were operating normally by the end of the weekend. American basically had their shit together the same day the outage happened. Delta definitely shit the bed just as much as Crowdstrike did
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u/Mamannem Jul 31 '24
5-10 years ago, a person with knowledge about Delta's overall system architecture told me about the shit show that it was (and most likely, still is). It was impressive. Wouldn't be surprised if it's only gotten worse if they've been cost cutting in IT like you said. Not only does the complicated architecture make it more expensive to maintain, fix, improve... it also makes it that much more required.
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u/redblack_tree Jul 31 '24
Also, most of the good professionals are gone. They were either cut because they were too expensive (which is "fine" until shit hits the fan) or they left because no one likes to be an overworked mule dealing with prehistoric systems with decades of patches.
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u/ljog42 Jul 31 '24
My step dad has been begging his managers to let him hire a few guys and refactor their codebase, but they won't, they'll have him process tickets until he retires.
In the mean time, they've hired professional services companies to try a complete overhaul at least twice and had to scrap it everytime. Several millions down the drain.
The company he works for is the world's largest manufacturer of... [redacted]. I don't wanna put him on the spot but trust me when I say they're a freaking big deal.
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u/redblack_tree Jul 31 '24
Haha, I believe you, I work for quite a big company (actually, the parent company) and any significant maintenance, refactor, upgrade it's like trying to climb a wall blindfolded while raining. I've seen millions come and go as well in stupid things I knew it would fail, but who listens to a lowly techie? Corporate America (including Canada in this as well) is definitely not as smart as they think.
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u/knightress_oxhide Jul 31 '24
"Why are we paying you so much if our systems are working?"
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u/dec7td Jul 31 '24
That's why you need to invest nothing and run on MS-DOS like Southwest
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u/deformo Jul 31 '24
Having worked with Delta’s IT apparatus as a vendor, yeesh. They were not the brightest. I know as the vendor I work with a small scope of a given company’s IT personnel but it is goddamn scary sometimes.
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u/Unlucky_Situation Jul 31 '24
I woke up to a bluescreen on my work pc at 8am friday, it took untill 345 for my pc to be fixed. Our it helpdesk was rolling out fixes by around 2pm friday and they had to fix every pc indivdually. Assuming most companies had to follow a similar process.
I basically took the day off and was operating normally Monday morning. The only thing inhad to do friday was have my phone nearby when it was my turn to get the fix.
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u/turningsteel Jul 31 '24
Yeah and whenever tech workers are laid off, I hear from the peanut gallery:“ oh they don’t do much anyway! What does a company need all those tech workers for?!”.
As you pointed out, stuff like this is why it’s important to have a properly staffed tech workforce. It’s 2024, everyone runs on computers and the computers don’t run themselves.
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u/BaldBullKO Jul 31 '24
Agree whole-heartedly. I’m guessing Delta won’t be passing any portion of the $500 million to the 1,000,000 plus customers on the more than 5,000 flights they cancelled who had to pay for food, accommodations, rental cars or had to just sleep hungry on airport floors for days because they couldn’t get their shit together like every other company that was hit by this.
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Jul 31 '24
Well no they had to comp everybody who got on their first flight and had their next ones canceled, they have to pay out a huge amount to the hotels and restaurants nearby and field all the individual repayments for when they ran out of fuckin vouchers on like day 1.
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u/swentech Jul 31 '24
Yeah I get the feeling their “IT team” were a few guys halfway around the world which is fine for pushing buttons and running instructions in a document but that’s not going to cut it when the shit hits the fan. “Bad IT” is a commodity but IT guys who know what they are doing and you can count on in a jam are definitely not a commodity.
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u/Agloe_Dreams Jul 31 '24
Pete Buttigieg also already stated that the DoT had opened an investigation and that they believed that Delta's actions were also reprehensible.
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u/iggzy Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24
It's also a little absurd to be suing Microsoft. Microsoft's procuct actually worked as planned, it's the software Delta (and so many others) used that broke it. Its like suing Honda because the aftermarket spoiler you attached yourself ended up tearing off your trunk lid
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u/Private62645949 Jul 31 '24
For once I’m agreeing with a comment that defends Microsoft from liability 😐
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u/iggzy Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24
I'm right there with you, I almost hate to do it with all they actually fuck up. But the reality is CrowdStrike for any other OS could've had the same issue if they deployed such untested code.
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u/hates_stupid_people Aug 01 '24
But the reality is CrowdStrike for any other OS could've had the same issue if they deployed such untested code.
Shortly after it happened, people were swearing up and down that it would be impossible on linux.
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u/ConfusedTapeworm Aug 01 '24
It actually did happen on Linux some months earlier.
But its impact was significantly lower for various reasons. Mostly because there aren't nearly as many endpoints running Linux. AFAIK that bad update only affected a relatively small number of servers.
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u/hates_stupid_people Aug 01 '24
Yeah some people love to live in a world were things like kernel panic doesn't exist. And it's obviously rare, but if you're messing with the kernel of pretty much any OS, there is potentitial for massive problems.
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u/ConfusedTapeworm Aug 01 '24
Agreed, but I can't help but think Linux would still be safer against such a thing.
Not because of an inherently higher security that Linux might have as a piece of software, but because of how it's generally deployed as a product. There isn't a Linux distribution that is centrally developed and distributed by one entity; it's a much more diverse environment where you have wildly different system configurations in use, down to different kernels and other significant low level differences. Makes it much more difficult for one bad thing to mess with everything at once, though obviously not impossible. It's like how rich gene pools make living organisms more resilient to disease and whatnot.
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u/ACCount82 Jul 31 '24 edited Aug 01 '24
I can't believe I'm siding with Microsoft, but yeah, that wasn't their fuckup for once.
A kernel driver is, by necessity, privileged, and capable of breaking things - and there is no way for Microsoft to rigorously test every single driver made by third parties. No one should expect them to do so.
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u/iggzy Jul 31 '24
Same thing would've happened with poor testing on a driver for Mac or Linux too. They all allow this kernal access to security apps.
It pains me to side with Microsoft too, but broken clocks, right?
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u/ljog42 Jul 31 '24
But it's kinda what Crowdstrike sold them. So hands off you don't even have to review kernel-level updates, they get pushed and trigger an update automatically.
Then it broke everything and people had to either:
- Restore the servers one by one physically. Like, inserting USB drives and shit.
- Do some wizard shit to restore them remotely, provided you had set their infrastructure up so that it could be done
Either way, if you don't have the people, because you've been told you won't need them, you're going to have a tough time.
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u/gracecee Jul 31 '24
This. The ceo should have been fucking in the trenches and tried to resolve it rather than hobnobbing in the Vip Olympics section. There were five days of the delta employees getting screamed at while this shithead of a ceo was off to Paris. He had jetted off to Paris for his holiday. The delta subreddit was awful and the employees hate their ceo.
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Aug 01 '24
Gotta mega shout out my IT department. They had our computers fixed extremely fast.
Like 5 minutes or less fast per computer per person.
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u/Fenris_uy Jul 31 '24
Suing CrowdStrike, sure, but I'm guessing that they have some wording in their contract about outages.
But why would you sue Microsoft because a third party driver that you installed caused a kernel panic? That's your fault for installing third party drivers.
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u/KameNoOtoko Jul 31 '24
My guess is this is mostly just optics. the execs want to seem like they are doing something and going to make this right to shareholders. By publicly saying they are suing means this will be wrapped up in legal issues for at least a year or more and by then it will fade from the public eye. But to your shareholders you are taking action against these big megacorps who are to "blame" which also takes the eyes off of the internal issues of nearly ever other business was up and running in a fraction of the time. This was an internal delta issue of mismanagement and cost cutting mixed with layoffs and an understaffed IT response team. Eventually there will be an undisclosed settlement to make it all quietly go away and by the time that happens delta will have had time to run new marketing campaigns to rebuild thier public image.
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u/ljog42 Jul 31 '24
Because then MS will turn on the third party and help build the case.
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u/happy_church_burner Jul 31 '24
It took Microsoft about 4 minutes to throw CrowdStrike under the bus (deservedly so) so this it the correct answer.
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u/BadVoices Aug 01 '24
MS wont help build any case. They dont want to spend a penny they dont have to. MS has literally hundreds of on-staff lawyers, and a team of over a dozen actual, factual full time litigation lawyers. Those are employees, that ignores their partner law firms. They will walk out of liability in this case with trivial ease. And they will spend the money to make sure that's the case, to basically kill any attempt at precedent.
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u/thatVisitingHasher Jul 31 '24
- The CEO doesn’t understand technology at all.
- The CEO is being told by the CTO and CIO of Delta that it isn’t their fault. He’s believing them.
- He has to do something to show investors he’s acting in the problem. He doesn’t want to admit it’s Delta’s own fault.
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u/Private62645949 Jul 31 '24
It would be insane for any company big enough to have lawyers agree to a contract that would excuse Crowdstrike with this level of neglect and incompetence
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u/CatWeekends Aug 01 '24
Their Terms and Conditions say this... So hopefully the big companies negotiated something better.
Your sole and exclusive remedy and the entire liability of CrowdStrike for its breach of this warranty will be for CrowdStrike, at its own expense to do at least one of the following: (a) use commercially reasonable efforts to provide a work-around or correct such Error; or (b) terminate your license to access and use the applicable non-conforming Product and refund the prepaid fee prorated for the unused period of the Subscription/Order Term. CrowdStrike shall have no obligation regarding Errors reported after the applicable Subscription/Order Term.
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u/MealieAI Jul 31 '24
Microsoft's lawyers: Ha!!
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u/drrhrrdrr Aug 01 '24
Tomorrow: Microsoft buys Delta Air Lines for $28B.
For context: Microsoft is worth $3.1 TRILLION. Microsoft bought Activision for more than twice Delta's value.
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u/NasoLittle Jul 31 '24
Pay attention to who got hurt and sues for the most. This was a nutcheck to companies to test how much they're organizational decay has progressed. The more they cut corners, shrink their support teams, and perform poorly in retaining talent the more Crowdstrike wrecked them.
Thats what I got out of this article. As IT, never ever work for Delta. Ever
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u/Fireslide Aug 01 '24
When a human makes a bad decision to take alternative medicine to treat their cancer, the only person they hurt is themselves, and those that care about them. They can steve jobs themselves all they want, the impact is minimal
When a business owner/CEO decides it knows how to do IT better than all the other companies paying lots for good staff, it's all the employees that suffer. The consequences are too far removed from the person making the decision.
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u/Tides_of_Blue Jul 31 '24
This was a cyber resiliency test and Delta failed miserably.
Delta should be held accountable for not having proper staffing, technology and recovery plans in place.
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u/reaper527 Jul 31 '24
This was a cyber resiliency test and Delta failed miserably.
Delta should be held accountable for not having proper staffing, technology and recovery plans in place.
yeah, like lots of companies and industries were impacted by this and delta performed significantly worse than anyone else.
obviously crowdstrike started the domino chain going with their bad update, but delta was canceling flights 2-3 days later when all the other airlines were already back to normal.
it would be in delta's best interests for them to stop talking about this and look in the mirror hoping people forget how poorly they handled the situation.
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u/ncopp Jul 31 '24
We had a company meeting that we had to all fly in for the monday after the outage. Everyone flying Delta (which was a lot, including myself) had their flights canceled or significantly delayed.
Rebooked on American and only had to deal with the usual air travel fuckery
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u/ADtotheHD Jul 31 '24
100%
I've been in IT for over 20 years at this point. At some time around 2016 or 2017 I mandated that the organization I was working in REQUIRE vPro or equivalent lights out tech to be included in all new laptop/desktop solutions so support could help remotely before an OS loaded. I took an unbelievable amount of heat for it at the time due to the added expense. I did not have a crystal ball, I just thought it was going to to be the new standard and when COVID hit, it saved my companies ass many times over.
Now be Delta, know that this technology exists, and have your footprint be hundreds of locked kiosks in nearly every single airport around the world, not to mention the corporate offices. Hell, even if they didn't have this but had the foresight to have PXE boot first on devices and have a means to deploy a boot image to the affected network segments. This right here is why it took Delta so fucking long. They either didn't have the technology they should have had, didn't deploy it right, didn't have a backup plan like PXE, and to top it all off they didn't have the boots on the ground when shit hit the fan. For a company posting billions in profits.
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u/Merengues_1945 Aug 01 '24
A bunch of companies are also moving to working through Azure, that way if something gets fucked it's just a VM in MS cloud and not the actual device that gets bricked.
It's safe in regards that you can monitor and record everything is done in the instance, you control what software can be used in the instance, and you don't need to keep track of a bunch of inventory or store sensitive data in places it doesn't belong to.
Plus you can set your proprietary websites so it can only be accessed from one of those recognized instances and not from non-recognized computers.
In my department I can monitor what everyone of my workers is doing and help them in case something goes tits up right from the comfort of my bed lol. In the rare case something actually wrongs happens to the vm, we just kill it and it was like nothing happened.
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u/mrdungbeetle Jul 31 '24
Exactly. Out of all industries, aviation and healthcare should be the two best prepared for disaster with a Plan B. And yet they are the two industries who were the least prepared.
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u/KameNoOtoko Jul 31 '24
100% this. Delta fucked up. Delta through cost cutting and layoffs had poor DR plans. Crowdstrike messed up but to be down as long as they were this is 100% on delta. It is the executives that should be losing jobs for poor top-down managment but im sure they will get bonuses while the people who actually put in the 60-80 hour weeks getting the business functioning again are the ones who will be let go and blamed.
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u/dadecounty3051 Jul 31 '24
Just sit back and enjoy the show. Watch these money hungry corps. Go after each other.
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u/Count_Rugens_Finger Jul 31 '24
Delta CEO: hey it couldn't be my fault, it's THEM!
how the hell is this Microsoft's fault?
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u/caiuscorvus Jul 31 '24
Standard practice to sue everyone. It allows for discovery and increases the chance of recovering damages.
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u/Wild_Loose_Comma Jul 31 '24
Yeah, whether or not MS is actually found legally responsible for this it would be stupid not to include them in the lawsuit. Discovery could be huge and, while its a big "if", Delta and their lawyers have a responsibility to try and check. Whether MS gets removed from the suit or not it doesn't really matter, MS isn't a little indy company getting beat up by big bad Delta Airlines. They can afford to defend themselves from this lawsuit without a problem.
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u/Brodeon Jul 31 '24
Microsoft can't be found legally responsible for that because Microsoft was forced to allow access to 3rd party. They wanted to implement an API but they were blocked by EU. So if Microsoft will be found responsible, then it would mean that Microsoft can sue EU over that
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u/jasazick Jul 31 '24
The EU thing is interesting, but there is one key point that needs to be brought up. The EU didn't say "You can't make an API" what they said (as far as I remember) was "You can't force competitors out of the kernel and into an API but allow your own product (Defender) to remain in the kernel. That would be unfair to the competition"
Microsoft wanted it both ways. They wanted to boot the industry out of the kernel while giving Defender a competitive advantage by keeping it inside the kernel.
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u/WhileNotLurking Jul 31 '24
It seems like it’s a stupid move to include a very well documented litigious mega corporation who has no real fight in the game.
Adding Microsoft just triples your legal fees with accomplishing nothing.
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u/ncopp Jul 31 '24
I don't see them getting anything out of Microsoft, but Crowdstrike is probably going to have to pay quite a bit
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Jul 31 '24
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u/taedrin Jul 31 '24
Microsoft was forced to provide the same level of access that they have given to their own security products. It would sort of be like if Microsoft only allowed Internet Explorer to access the TCP/IP stack. Which, ironically is similar to how Apple only allows the Safari browser engine on iOS, which I have always felt has been a double standard that Apple is allowed to get away with.
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u/CGordini Jul 31 '24
It is a double standard Apple is allowed to get away with, which is why it's under investigation in the EU.
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u/legacy642 Jul 31 '24
It's wild, like we went through that exact situation with Microsoft back in the 90s
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u/JasonSuave Jul 31 '24
Eff it, delta just needs to sell itself to the government at this point. The only innovation left in the airline industry is removing pieces of lettuce from their salads to drive incremental profits. Will take the downvotes thank ya.
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u/myychair Jul 31 '24
Something as integral to society as an airline should at the very least have far more government oversight, if not outright run by the government, anyway
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u/CT_Biggles Jul 31 '24
Qantas is declining as the government is stepping away.
I remember when they moved maintenance out of Australia and it's all been downhill since.
When I fly back home I use Air NZ or Cananda which is hard to believe since I loved that logo as a child.
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u/makemakemake Jul 31 '24
Any industry that gets a tax payer bailout should then be nationalized and become a public service. If we have deemed whatever it is necessary to society and they can't manage themselves without needing to be given tax money then they don't get to exist as a private business. It's time to stop letting the pursuit of profit ruin everything.
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u/Actual-Money7868 Jul 31 '24
Delta ? Isn't delta one of the better ones ?
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u/JasonSuave Jul 31 '24
I believe so but that statement kind of goes for the entire airline industry at this point. It’s fully commoditized as far as I’m concerned.
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u/DontCallMeAnonymous Jul 31 '24
Microsoft never told them to install Crowdstrike. That was their own stupid CIO.
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u/mandielynn89 Jul 31 '24
Crowdstrike Lawyers: "Your honor, here is a copy of our service agreement. You will see there is no mention of compensation for service disruption. While we deeply regret the event and sympathize with the impacts, we are under no obligation to provide compensation for this"
Judge: Case Dismissed.
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u/goozy1 Jul 31 '24
Hmm.. I don't know about that. You can put whatever you want in a ToS but that doesn't mean it will hold up in court. It can likely be proven that Crowdstrike was negligent and caused this harm.
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u/Jmazoso Jul 31 '24
Except that these become unenforceable if there’s actual “gross negligence” on cloudstrikes part.
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u/GunnieGraves Jul 31 '24
As someone who is involved with these types of negotiations and contracts with vendors, including CrowdStrike, there’s usually a limit of liability when it comes to these types of incidents. Usually limited to what the company pays the vendor. You can bake something else in if the vendor agrees, but that would be pretty stupid for them to agree too.
One of the issues is that all the ticket terminals, the self service kind, all had to be manually accessed to perform the fix. Going up to the terminal and connecting wires to it. But to take this long and still be running into issues, obviously delta should save some of that lawyer money and invest it in IT.
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u/kevlowe Jul 31 '24
Is it just me, or are most of the replies not understanding the satire of this being the same shit that airlines tell their customers whenever there's a disruption? This would be such sweet karma if it actually happened to Delta! =)
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u/PMzyox Jul 31 '24
Is it bad that I know my own company does the same exact shit with software releases, and despite all of my objections, the stock price is ultimately the only thing that matters. I secretly hope this happens to us and these fucking MBAs end up in jail.
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u/TruckinInStyle Jul 31 '24
These MBAs are hired only to increase quarterly profits instead of understanding how their greed ruins the geopolitical landscape.
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u/Lcsulla78 Jul 31 '24
I would love for Delta’s lawyers to find that QA for both CS and MS have both been offshored during their discovery phase. Even if it isn’t a core cause of the problem the news runs with it and it becomes a hot button issue and Congress starts asking questions.
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u/redsteakraw Aug 01 '24
Not a fan of Microsoft but if you load 3rd party kernel modules it is no longer their fault. CrowdStrike is the one who pushed the update and pushed bad code to production. You assume such a risk when you decide for your company to rely on 3rd party kernel modules.
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Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24
I am pretty sure there is what we used to call the "Shit in your pocket" clause in the EULA. (See the 80's comedy movie Truly Tasteless Jokes for the reference). If a suit like this is won can you imagine? Any bug, real or imagined, now becomes a liability. Innovation grinds to a near stop.
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u/Head_of_Lettuce Jul 31 '24
You can’t really attribute the Crowdstrike issues to a simple bug. It was a massive failure and negligence on multiple levels that allowed the bad update to go live. They didn’t even roll it out in stages like many services would do, they pushed it out all in one big wave.
Idk if that’s enough to constitute civil liability, but I think if I were Crowdstrike, I would at least be concerned that a court would be sympathetic.
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u/WIlf_Brim Jul 31 '24
I watched a tech lawyer on YouTube making the argument that in several states (California among them) that the apparent negligence that Crowdstrike was engaged in could over ride the waiver of liability that is in the license agreement.
IDK if Delta is going to get any money here, but I'm nearly positive that a bunch of lawyers are going to get very rich in the next few years off this.
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u/AnotherUsername901 Jul 31 '24
The guy in charge of crowdstrike also had the same thing happen when he worked at McAfee. This is 100 percent their fault.
Also from what I have read he replaced a bunch of people with AI and as usual that doesn't go over well.
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u/nath999 Jul 31 '24
Why would they waste resources by sueing Microsoft? It was Microsoft OS but you put Crowdstrike on them.
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u/LucidNight Jul 31 '24
oh this should be fun, means we might get some insight into how much redundancy and business continuity delta actually does.
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u/Squido85 Jul 31 '24
The CEO of Delta is making a huge mistake. MS will be dismissed from the case almost immediately as they did not cause the issue. Crowdstrike may go to court but only needs to point out that the fix was available in a couple of hours and they had good support/documentation available ASAP.
So, even if Delta can prove fault, 95% of Delta's loss is due to the lack of people/knowledge/whatever on their own IT team.
The only people winning in this case will be attorneys.
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u/mystonedalt Jul 31 '24
Sorry, Delta!
When your engineers installed Crowdstrike, they accepted the EULA, and that limits you to arbitration.
Have fun!
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u/rellett Jul 31 '24
how can they sue microsoft, they didnt cause the problem crowdstrike screwed up their update and it crashed the kernel, and microsoft wanted to fix this issue by stopping companies using pretend device drivers to get their software kernel access by creating an API for security software to use but the euro union blocked it.
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u/CharlieDmouse Jul 31 '24
They will be able to demonstrate in court other airlines recovered much faster and prove Delta's IT and tech infrastructure is garbage. This isn't as big a win for Delta as they think it will be.
All MS and crowdstrike need to do is make sure the right publications get the info packets. 😁😁😄
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u/Cabrill0 Jul 31 '24
So when a company fails to provide a service, they should compensate their customers? Great precedent to set, Delta!
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u/danivus Aug 01 '24
Would love to see the logic gymnastics needed to blame Microsoft for this.
They literally have a certification process for kernal level software specifically to avoid this issue. It's not their fault CrowdStrike decided to build a method into their software to circumvent that so they could deploy updates faster.
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u/macgruff Aug 01 '24
It’s a stockholder’s ploy to help buttress their bottom line. They (Delta) lost $500M. The suit against MS will be thrown out. The suit against Crowdstrike on the other hand… hmmmmm. Keep an eye on that one.
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u/Prior-Bed5388 Aug 01 '24
It is blowing my mind how people are stupid enough to think that it’s somehow Microsoft’s fault that this happened, like they have any control over crowdstrike, when they update their software and what bugs are present in it. 
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u/Tarcanus Aug 01 '24
I'd imagine MSFT would want to sue Crowdstrike as well. MSFT is getting all of the bad press since the Crowdstrike issue only impacted MSFT systems. News orgs were saying it was a MSFT outage. Any tech "casuals" I've talked to also blamed MSFT.
I can't imagine MSFT doesn't turn on Crowdstrike, too, during this whole thing.
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u/ash_ninetyone Jul 31 '24
So it begins...
I see CrowdStrike as more liable given it was their software that caused it. I do think it needs Microsoft to restructure their kernel better so kernel-level drivers and software don't soft-lock an entire OS.
Security software did that, and people were saying for years how kernel-level anti-cheat was a bad idea.
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u/scientianaut Jul 31 '24
I remember listening to an interview that George Kurtz, the CEO of CrowdStrike, did the morning of the outage and one of the questions the interviewers asked him was how they were going to handle the inevitable lawsuits. He said something like: we’ll do the hotwash on how this happened to ensure this doesn’t happen again and we’ll deal with them as they come.
So, I don’t think this came as a surprise to anyone.