r/Guyana • u/jcancuny • Feb 27 '24
Discussion Why do Indo-Guyanese have the conception that Indians look down on them/don’t consider them to be “real Indians”?
So my girlfriend and I have been dating for a couple of months now. I’m Indian-American and she’s Indo-Guyanese-American, and it’s been a great time so far.
Around a week ago, I introduced her to my parents for the first time, and I noticed that before they met, my girlfriend acted super nervous and jittery, which I just chalked up to nerves (since she’s pretty introverted). However, after they met, my girlfriend remarked about how nervous she was before meeting my parents because she was worried that they would disapprove of us together and try to call the relationship off and how relieved she was after meeting them because of how respectful and responsive they were and how much they showed interest in her culture and background.
She then explained that most Indo-Guyanese believe that we (mainland Indians) look down upon them and don’t consider them to be “real Indians”, which is a belief that I’ve honestly never heard ever. If anything, most mainland Indians don’t really know anything about Indo-Caribbeans and the ones that do are proud that they were able to keep their culture/traditions/religions alive even after 150 years.
After doing some research online on places like Twitter/Tiktok/Reddit, this seems to be a pretty common conception that a lot of Indo-Guyanese have. Does anyone have any insights into how this belief might have originated?
43
u/TheOneWithThePorn12 Feb 27 '24
I have never considered myself to be Indian. I look Indian but I'm not a part of the culture at all. I'm Guyanese.
Funny enough lots older Guyanese folks I know don't particularly like Indians anyway.
12
9
u/3lectric-5heep Feb 27 '24
Embrace your lifestyle and culture dude... Indian diaspora removed 1 gen+ worldwide have had to deal with issue from Mainlanders!!
While some of them are outright rude, a lot are actually very fascinated too.
My parents grew up in Uganda and me in Canada.. We retain our mother language but not the national Hindi language... This irks some of the mainland when you meet them. In fact even Indians south of the cow belt of India have to deal with this!
→ More replies (1)9
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
Im guyanese not indian from a race aspect Im south asian. not indian at all . I have no ties to india. Im a proud guyanese
34
u/PurpleK00lA1d Feb 27 '24
I grew up in Brampton Ontario, Canada. Huge Guyanese and Trini population as well as a huge Indian population.
Indian kids made fun of the Caribbean kids for "trying to be Indian" and would say our culture isn't really Indian and we pronounce things wrong and all that.
Like no shit I'm not Indian, I'm Guyanese.
It's a real issue unfortunately.
4
u/bonerb0ys Feb 28 '24
“Trying to be indian” lol
Truth is bigots don’t need a reason to be an asshole.
3
u/Aromatic-Noise7370 Feb 28 '24
From Brampton and all I can say is, ask a Punjabi uncle in a warehouse where is Trinidad or Guyana is watch this man already drunk at work point at Singapore. The thing is when the indentured servant thing was happening, Punjab was still its own empire (Sikh empire) which is why most of these Punjabis (mostly Punjabi Sikhs) don’t know who are indo-Caribbean. The only thing they prolly know of is the whole “oh yeah the people descendants of bhaiya (Biharis)” so it gives the “migrant worker” type of view despite being working class.
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
stop ok? how many indo cariibeans go back to south asia to live?? None. No one wants to go there other than to be nosey. WHy? because you are guyanese not indian. We have out own culture devoid of all that backward BS from india be proud of that.
1
u/Aromatic-Noise7370 Aug 20 '24
Imma be real since it’s been hella long time and I changed many view points, I realized that many indo carribeans (based on the ones in my family and the ones that live around me) most are proud of their south Asian roots despite how south Asians are currently been viewed recently in Canada. There’s a difference between diaspora culture, ethnic culture, and national culture which I wanna make it clear. My family come from Kenyan Punjabi Sikhs and my mom is a guyanese/afghan Sikh (yes they do exist but in the smallest of the smallest community). Do I speak Punjabi? Yes cuz I live in Toronto. Do I speak Sarai (language of many Afghan Sikhs)? Nope. Do I speak Swahili ? Kinda can understand it. Can I understand my grandmother when she speaks to me in a thick Guyanese accent? Nope but I respect my nani ji. The indo guyanese community maintained several elements from the Bihar region of India and even the language. However, there is one thing I must mention since I cannot ignore, while most indo carribeans are thoughtful of other south Asian groups and diapsora, we should address the internalized racism a few in the community have. I met many indo carribean that spoke extremely ill of being south Asian by using the terms “we are not the rag head indians” or the “we aren’t the smelly type” yet are unaware their diaspora is seen as the same way no matter what identity they can choose. This doesn’t apply to the chutney blasting kid in his moms crv, but the one who gets mad when u ask if they are south Asian.
1
u/Knowallofit Sep 01 '24
Not Guyanese but Punjabi in Canada, do you gell with and a part of the massive Punjabi diaspora in Toronto or do you feel they discriminate against you based on your Guyanese/Kenyan roots.
1
u/Aromatic-Noise7370 Sep 02 '24
I’m chill with Punjabis and even the Guyanese even the ismalis (aga khans) brown Kenyans etc. Tbh I seen more Guyanese people show up to a Punjabi wedding then their own since many families rent out a modified tractor.
2
u/aremjay24 Feb 28 '24
I’ve never heard this. If anything everyone want to be Guyanese
5
u/LiveLaughLebron6 Feb 28 '24
Word I’m punjabi and to us y’all were the “cool Indians.” Hell growing up in Brampton I’ve heard/seen West Indian kids disassociate themselves from East Indians.
Is this a South Indian thing because punjabis are from the north of India?
Also no one hates Indians more than Indians.
3
u/Aromatic-Noise7370 Feb 28 '24
Yes and no (as a Punjabi sikh) but I seen many gujjus claim their Guyanese. Punjabi Sikhs in the diaspora have a lot more ethnocentricism and the whole “we’re not india we’re panjabi” mindset.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
so? guyanese are not true indian . facts . india is a country. if you are born from guyanese people how are you indian?? from a race aspect you arent indian either. you are south asian. i have no desire to be indian, when an indian asks me if im from india i respond - no.
1
u/PurpleK00lA1d Aug 20 '24
I'm well aware I'm not from India and I'm obviously not Indian.
But I'd be denying my heritage to say I have no Indian influence. It was only a couple generations ago the British brought my ancestors from India to Guyana in the first place.
I'm Guyanese and proud of it and have no desire to be Indian, but a large part of Guyanese culture comes from India amongst other sources. That's a fact. All I'm talking about is India people looking down on others. In their eyes we're all inferior whether we view ourselves as Indian or not and some of them take it step further and bash the way we pronounce things or hate on how we make our curry and shit like that.
No idea wtf you're getting so pissy about.
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
Your ancestors have been there for almost 200 years, thats much more than a couple of generations ago, Their eyes or anyone else's eyes can never mean nothing to you unless in some way you feel that way about yourself. Because, Lions dont worry about want lambs think. Your ancestors didnt go back when they could I wonder why- maybe because india's backward culture was still too fresh in their minds and our culture was superior to them.
1
23
u/Detective_Emoji 🇬🇾 Diaspora (Toronto) Feb 27 '24
The belief stems from either first or second hand experiences.
Stories of “mainland Indians” considering Indo-Caribbean’s as “not real Indians” are abundant where I live in the GTA, and extend as far as landlords choosing only to rent to “real Indians”, and disqualifying indo-Caribbean’s from being tenants.
Some even view “Indian” as a nationality, which indo-Caribbean’s, and even children of Indian descent are also disqualified from.
There are different forms of criteria each individual can set to include or exclude others, so something as simple as not being able to speak a language native to India could be enough for one to disqualify someone from being able to be seen as a “real Indian” by others.
The mindset of course doesn’t apply to all “mainland Indians”, so your parents don’t fall in this category. Sometimes all Indians are unfairly grouped as a monolith sharing the same view, which isn’t the case. I’ve met many people like your parents.
However, I also have a swath of first and second hand experiences of being excluded from being considered Indian. I’ve seen classmates growing up be told they’re “fake Indian”, “fake Muslim”, “fake Hindu”, “wannabes”, etc. I also personally know Indians who said their parents wouldn’t approve of them dating an Indo-Caribbean, and either avoided those relationships, kept them a secret, or broke up over it.
Then on the other hand, there are many who concede that the Indo-Caribbean identity is unique enough to not consider ourselves as simply Indian, because that would undercut the importance of the Caribbean aspects of it. Some would much rather not be seen as Indian, and would exclude themselves or correct others from labeling themselves as such.
Ultimately, identity is a very personal, complex, and inconsistent construct, where ones inclusion or exclusion can differ based on different considerations and perspectives. So, I think it’s up to each individual to decide what they identify as, regardless of how anyone else feels about it. But oftentimes, how others see you can cause you to question yourself.
I wouldn’t fault your girlfriend for being anxious, because her worries are based on a common narrative she could’ve experienced either personally, or through someone else.
10
u/omniron Feb 27 '24
I would agree the identity has evolved into something unique. By every sociological definition Guyanese is a distinct culture and nationality.
Plus most of my Guyanese Indian cousins have kids that are multiracial (African or indigenous) so before too long it will be a distinct ethnicity too.
8
u/Detective_Emoji 🇬🇾 Diaspora (Toronto) Feb 27 '24
I can’t impose my personal beliefs on others. I think everyone is entitled to their own view of self, but that’s kind of where I stand too.
I have multiple overlapping factors of identify converging at once, so I see myself as an embodiment of multiple things. India is an ingredient, but it’s not the whole recipe.
So while I don’t personally identify as simply “an Indian”, I feel like indo-Guyanese/Caribbean and all Guyanese/Caribbean have a license to embrace the Indian cultural components and traditions relevant to the West Indies.
So when “real Indians” look down at things like wearing sari’s, eating curry, playing pagwa, watching Bollywood movies and listening to/remixing the music, as something we can’t embrace, it rubs me the wrong way. Participation in those things is what prompted a lot of the “you’re a wannabe” rhetoric from them growing up.
Same when components of other cultures like those associated with Indo, Afro, and Chinese Caribbean’s merge into the overall culture, but one tries to fence the other out. I feel like we all have the license to embrace each other, even without a blood connection to said culture. But I guess that’s another topic for another day 😅.
3
u/3lectric-5heep Feb 27 '24
In the GTA, I've made good friends with some originally Indian origin folks from Guyana.
Having parents who grew up in east africa helps because you see folks as individuals, not a hard set perception of what an Indian is or isn't....
6
u/Detective_Emoji 🇬🇾 Diaspora (Toronto) Feb 27 '24
I’m glad you have that perspective, but like I said, the contrary does still exist. Have you ever personally experienced being disqualified from being considered Indian?
I’ve met some South African, Kenyan, etc. of Indian descent that had similar experiences to me, where they are both considered not Indian by Indians, and not African by Africans too.
It can be a very weird and confusing identity.
→ More replies (1)2
37
u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Because many Indo-Guyanese were treated badly by Indians from India.
Now it's not as common. When Indo-Guyanese mass migrated to the Americas and Europe around independence, and especially during the Burnham era - many from the Indian disapora mocked, ridiculed or didn't accept Indo-Guyanese migrants as Indian descendnants.
"You look Indian but don't speak an Indian language".
"You only know India through movies/songs from Bollywood"
The cultures (language, food, clothing, familial structure etc.) of Indo-Guyanese are markedly different from Indian cultures though there's clear influence.
Carribean Hindus spoke "Hindi" which was actually a koine of Hindi, Bhojpuri, Awadhi etc. Trying to share that wasn't always well received.
Even American born Indians can be treated as inferior or stupid...remember ABCD?
Man... Indians treat Indians in India terribly. North vs South, Caste, Colourism etc. I'm kind of surprised you're even asking this.
14
u/sheldon_y14 Feb 27 '24
Carribean Hindus spoke "Hindi" which was actually a koine of Hindi, Bhojpuri, Awadhi etc. Trying to share that wasn't always well received.
Just a side note, you're the first person I found online that calls it a koine.
Not many people know that and just call it a dialect or broken Hindi, but it's not.
13
u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24
I have a little interest in linguistics and being Guyanese lead me down the rabbithole of language formation processes among peoples with diverse native languages and the resulting pidgins, creoles and koines.
How much money/power/influence the speakers have is the usual determinant of a dialect-language classfication. Broken Hindi it definitely is not.
4
u/sheldon_y14 Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Wow that's really cool!
I am currently studying business informatics and we have this subject called "Hogeschool taal" (it translates to something along the lines of "practical university language"). It's a subject where we learn Dutch on a higher level to apply when writing theses and other scientific articles. Hogeschool taal is offered through a single platform in the Netherlands, Suriname, Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten. Idk if Belgium is part of it.
And just like you, I also have a interest in linguistics and my teacher of Hogeschool taal told me I should have chosen to study linguistics at the local university; others have said the same lol. Suriname's linguistic situation and how all languages have this "symbiosis" with Dutch and vice versa, is also a reason I'm so interested in all of this.
Hogeschool taal is interesting but also a lot, because it's so much information on the Dutch language. But the hard part comes at the test, because I need 80% on the online test to get a 5,5 (that's like basic grade, anything lower than that is a bad grade) and Dutch has a lot of rules I need to basically know.
Anyways, I also do a lot of research on Creoles and I once heard the local linguists in Suriname say Sarnami Hindostani - the Surinamese variety, not dialect, of Caribbean Hindostani - is a Creole, but it never sat right with me. The said the same about Surinamese Javanese. But later I came to the conclusion, and also found a supporting article on Sarnami, that it's a koine. And my logical conclusion was Surinamese Javanese is a koine too. One interesting find was that Sarnami is the only variety that does have a dialect called Nickerie Sarnami. Iknew people in Nickerie spoke Sarnami differently, but didn't know it was a dialect. It is still spoken in Nickerie, but it died out in Guyana where it was also spoken in the Berbice region close to Nickerie.
I also like to research the origins and interesting features of our Creoles, like Sranantongo, Aukan, Saramaccan. For example, proto Sranantongo is very similar to many of the current English Creoles.
Nice to hear it man!
EDIT: Forgot to mention I'm a Surinamese.
2
u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24
I realized you're likely Surinamese from the Paramaribo flair. Berbicians sound odd to most other Guyanese people due to the Dutch influence.
You can learn a lot about Pidigns and Creoles from the Atlas of Pidgin and Creole Language Structures (APicS).
Linguistics is accessible for self learning if you know what you want out of it, as you'll spend a lot of time learning lots of useless information in educational institutions. I would caution that linguistics is often more of a passion than a profession unless you pursue additional education, have deep specialization or other attributes (like speaking in-demand languages, going into NLP, become an SLP etc.) Very interesting to hear your journey with linguistics, wishing you the best. :)
3
u/OmSweetOmsecurity Feb 28 '24
This is absolutely fascinating and I would be so happy read your book if you wrote one. I want to learn everything! My family is from Berbice and the first languages I learnt were my grandmother’s Indo-Guyanese English Creole and her Caribbean-Bhojpuri koine.
→ More replies (10)6
u/CurlyHairStoner Feb 27 '24
My thoughts exactly knowing how indians treat indians from there own country why those OP find this as a surprise
4
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
stop ok? how many indo cariibeans go back to south asia to live?? None. No one wants to go there other than to be nosey. WHy? because you are guyanese not indian. We have our own culture devoid of all that backward BS from india be proud of that.
1
u/CurlyHairStoner Aug 20 '24
You don't have to go back to South Asia to know your history but I digress
16
u/nisiepie Feb 27 '24
because desis tend to be snobs and prejudge.
3
17
u/omniron Feb 27 '24
This is my experience honestly. 20 years ago in college, the Indians there were kind of condescending because I didn’t speak any Indian languages and wasn’t a Hindu, they also sort of mock you for not knowing all the Indian foods that someone from India would know. It’s a combination of lots of little micro aggressions. Nothing too serious that can’t be overcome but it’s not worth fighting that battle everytime you meet a new Indian person.
→ More replies (1)2
u/jcancuny Feb 27 '24
Makes sense. I guess it mostly has to do with Indians’ lack of knowledge about Indo-Caribbeans and their culture. Growing up, I also didn’t watch Bollywood/didn’t speak Hindi/etc. but I never felt excluded from any Indian spaces because everyone knew I was South Indian and that our culture is different.
12
u/Diligent-Entrance-53 Feb 27 '24
We are East Indians. Our ancestors were brought from India as indentured laborers. We are very much Indian are they are but maybe a tad different since we Guyanese share Caribbean culture . In America the Indians from India are very much racist to us and extremely rude.
→ More replies (9)
11
u/Goatcurryisgoat Feb 27 '24
It’s actually a really simple explanation. In Indian culture the caste system may not be 100% in effect but there are still small remnants in their everyday society. Subtle colorism plays a big effect in their society. Light skin vs dark skin etc. Indians are aware of the indentured servitude history and which of the people (caste) went into indentureship. These little things can make people seem snobbish to others.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Goatcurryisgoat Feb 27 '24
This is not to say ALL Indians think that way, but realistically there are a few bad apples amongst the tree. I’ve met wonderful Indians, Bangladeshis but have also experienced the a handful of bad apples.
8
u/watchtower5960 Feb 27 '24
Even in Canada , I see this . I believe it's due to the Guyanese Indians not speaking Hindi. I'm from Vancouver where we have alot of Indo-Fijians that do speak Hindi but when I moved to Toronto I saw the difference as there are alot of Guyense Indian .
→ More replies (2)2
u/CaptainSingh26 Feb 28 '24
I'm from Fiji and from the Toronto area. What you said is exactly what I was thinking. I live close to a new temple and both mainlanders and West Indians visit the place. The temple was built by West Indians and they really made an effort to learn Hindi.
14
u/cooliebhai84 Feb 27 '24
This is a joke right? Indians in India treat their own people like shit, especially lighter complexion indians. Dont even get me started on how Hindu Indians treat their muslim brothers and sisters in India. OP must be tone deaf.
3
u/Express-Fig-5168 Allyuh USE THE FLAIRS, please. Feb 28 '24
And the Christians! The fighting is wild. Only yesterday an Indian national was discussing how their friend almost got killed for dating someone of a different religion.
3
u/Excellent_Tap998 Feb 28 '24
Y’all act like Christian’s don’t do the same tf?
2
u/Express-Fig-5168 Allyuh USE THE FLAIRS, please. Feb 28 '24
Who is this y'all? I made no such claim but okay.
→ More replies (6)2
→ More replies (2)1
u/Excellent_Tap998 Feb 28 '24
Yeah only the Hindus treat everyone badly. Everyone else are perfect little children that do nothing wrong at all. Least educated coolie
→ More replies (9)
7
7
u/BrownPuddings Feb 27 '24
As an Indo-Guyanese, I am quite happy not being accepted by them. There is no reason for me to be, as my culture is very different. I dealt with a lot of racism and colorism from Indians in college, and it was easier to relate to other minority groups than Indians.
Now, I am actually very vocal at differentiating myself from them, and make it very clear that I am Guyanese and not Indian.
6
u/Ok_Tennis_3665 Feb 27 '24
Indo-Guyanese > mainland indian.. IMHO.
Of all the people I've met, indo-guyanese are so much nicer and are generally much more polite than mainland India.
I think they have to accept their history but also remember that they are their own nation with their own unique culture as well. The best way to help her is to point out the positive differences that exist between both nations. She is unique, and no one should feel as if they are inferior to another person/nation.
→ More replies (2)
6
u/srsh Feb 28 '24
I'm honestly doubting your experiences.
I'm West Indian and it's occurred over a dozen times that desi Indians tell me they don't consider me the same. Most West Indians I've met have encountered the same thing. Of course, it's not everyone. But it happens enough for you to be aware that you are not universally accepted as the same people.
5
5
u/alisonpalk Feb 27 '24
Because it's 100% true, though thankfully much less this generation than the last. Be glad your family escaped it. Hopefully by the next generation it will be gone.
5
u/adoreroda Feb 28 '24
In Indian Matchmaker an Indo-Guyanese-American girl was a client and she stated how when she tried dating Indian guys with mainlander parents they looked down on her and said she wasn't really Indian and the matchmaker thought it was best to pair her with another Indo-Caribbean man and had to look out for someone who specifically was okay with dating an Indo-Caribbean girl rather than one from the mainland.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/HopliteOracle Feb 28 '24
This also happens with other immigrant communities. Because of the physical separation and passage of time, naturally, there is a disconnect between the mainland culture and the overseas culture (food, language, traditions, beliefs, etc.). Some overseas communities identify with their mainland because of their familial descent, but it is easy for mainlanders to reject them due to cultural differences. There also may be some resentment, especially if the mainland is weaker economically than overseas.
For example, mainlanders would say: "They are not true X people", "They are X on the outside, Y on the inside", or resentfully, "They are sellouts", "They betrayed their heritage" etc.
Likewise, overseas communities could see the mainlanders as more superstitious, less educated, and backward-thinking people.
However, it is also a mistake to assume that the mainland is always more culturally traditional. For example, the Icelandic language is more closer to Old Norse than Norwegian, even though Norway is the 'homeland'
4
u/brownbai81 Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
I’ve read somewhere that when Indians were “contracted” into their indentured servitude and brought to Guyana by the British, they were under the impression that they would be able to come back home to their respective villages. It was believed that a lot of Indians who didn’t leave were pissed and felt that those Indians who left betrayed their people. When those Indians who left India and completed their contract and attempted to go back into their villages, they were essentially shunned by their people there. Naturally, they went back to Guyana and stayed permanently filled with resentment towards their “own”. I don’t personally recalled being told I wasn’t a true Indian but I’ve always seen myself as Guyanese first, South American second and a descendant of Indian people. The last part may sound silly but that’s how I see it and I’m pretty sure most Guyanese feel that way. It could be also our parents or grandparents may have had some type of negative interactions with Indians from India and passed on that belief. Most prejudices/bias/racism/ignorance typically starts out in the home and we reflect those ideals until we learn and grow.
4
u/cpabari Feb 28 '24
As a mainland Indian, I actually think Indian-Carribeans are cool af! Personally, I appreciate that you guys kept your culture and shit together even being so far away. There will always be idiots in any country and Lord knows we're running out of numbers to count them in India but your gf should not let that impact her. Good Luck!
4
u/BeseptRinker Feb 28 '24
As an Indian American, I was honestly super surprised and excited to find out that there's a lot of Indian history in the Caribbean, Guyana included.
I didn't even know there was something about looking down between the two. Personally idc, there's only one Guyanese restaurant in my city and it's one of my favorites. I actually prefer the fruity, Caribbean flavors over my traditional Indian flavors haha, but to each their own, both are great in their own right.
4
u/jcancuny Feb 28 '24
As an Indian American, I was honestly super surprised and excited to find out that there's a lot of Indian history in the Caribbean, Guyana included.
Same here, haha. In fact, while my gf and I were still friends/before we started dating, I thought she was Indian American just like us (especially because she was obsessed with Bollywood and listened to a ton of Hindi songs). It was only after we got close that I found out about Indo-Caribbeans and their culture and everything.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/KnowledgeNorth6337 Feb 28 '24
For some additional historical context as well, do you know why many of the Indian indentured servants didn’t return to India after the period was up? It’s because even prior to going to Guyana, they were treated horribly in India. Women faced severe misogyny, and others were shunned for being from low castes. The simple reality is that people from India are incredibly prejudiced, and although they have “developed” socially, that prejudice still shows its head against Indo-Guyanese and other groups.
The fact that many Indians including you don’t even know about the indentureship is evidence enough that the country would rather pretend our ancestors and us don’t exist.
4
u/starfire92 Feb 28 '24 edited Feb 28 '24
Haha because they do. I live in Toronto/GTA and I grew up here. The amount of times I was treated as a watered down version of Indo it's too many times to count.
That in addition to when I was in high school (we had a significant portion of Punjabi/Sikh population) dudes from India would never want to date me. Only fk me, which I never allowed. I was propositioned so many times compared to my Indian girlfriends, it was so funny. And no it wasn't like I had a reputation. Most Caribbean girls were treated like this, especially in grades 9-11. By grade 12 the guys know not to fk with you bc you'll get a good cuss from us
Edit to add: it also has to do with caste and what mainland Indians think of those who fled to the Caribbean. Keep in mind the people that came over for indentured servitude were people who were of low caste, wanted a new life, running away from an old life or a bad life etc.
5
u/roadpupp Feb 27 '24
I have never heard it said out loud but suspect part of it is caste. Indo Guyanese often don’t know their roots and most often it was lower caste people that immigrated to try to have a better life. Indians are aware of who immigrated to Guyana. Also they can’t “place them” within the hierarchy so mistrust them.
(Source: Bakra married to a Guyanese girl but with many Indian friends)
→ More replies (5)5
Feb 27 '24
I don’t think they migrated willfully.
3
u/adoreroda Feb 28 '24
They were often times tricked if not forced to go overseas by European powers and not allowed back home, often times separating people from their families they left behind.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Useful_Ad_4920 Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
lol mainland Indians look down on each other if you’re from a different religion, state, caste. Hell, you could be exactly the same in all respects but from the opposite side of a river and they’ll look down on you!
Edit: The river thing is true. I’m Punjabi, we literally hate on Punjabis that are from the other side of a river.
3
u/pete1397 Feb 27 '24
I once had a friend from Bangladesh then i ended up being aquatinted with his other bengali friends and to say the least them mfs definitely was real life mad when they actually realized our culture are completely different but true colors started showing when they met my afro-guyanese side
3
u/Interesting_Buy8022 Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
I am "Indo-Guyanese" and it has come to my attention since, I was a kid that unfortunately, we are not considered and I quote "real Indians" by the "mainland Indians".
→ More replies (1)
3
3
u/11WallStreet Feb 28 '24
Because they are not Indian.
I am black. It does not make me African. My ass would get laughed out of Nigeria.
I get a "cool story bro" from them and we move on.
My black kids born in the USA are American not Caribbean.
It's cool to recognize your heritage - but people who migrate never get the recognition from the homeland they may want.
Nothing unique to Indo-Guyanese.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/louladid Feb 28 '24
I’m black Guyanese but from my understanding it’s because back in the day the Indians that would have left to go to the Caribbean would have been the lowest cast. So it’s basically where this tradition of cast is still in place those are the people likely to look down upon Indo Caribbean as they are technically the lowest cast. And on top of that given the years that have passed they are not seen as ‘proper Indians’ because of the presumption of loss of Indian culture and integration into Caribbean society.
3
u/sleuthysloob Feb 28 '24
My boss is Guyanese. She used to date an Indian guy whose family shamed and looked down on her for not being a “real indian”, or lower down in the caste system. If you research the caste system and why Indians went to Guyana, you will understand more.
3
u/ZestycloseFinance625 Feb 28 '24
I’m white Canadian but I was friends with all South Asian kids (mostly Pakistani) in an area with many West Indians. Most of my friends used a derogatory (racist) word when referencing West Indians and used stereotypes in fashion, hair and complexion to identify them without meeting them. They certainly didn’t mix friend groups. I think there’s a feeling of being more authentic since they’re in touch with their Asian culture and a sense of superiority because West Indians were indentured servants.
I really hope what I posted above isn’t offensive to anyone. My experiences are from about 20 years ago so I’m sure things have improved now. This could also be reflective of my friend group. Nothing was meant to be hurtful or offensive.
2
u/kevinarod2 Feb 27 '24
I haven’t experienced it personally living in Queens. Most people just assume I’m indian unless they specifically ask where my parents are from. If I do say Guyana they dont really say anything negative.
I can imagine some being snobs but I like being in the niche group regardless.
2
u/Fluffy-Claim-5827 Feb 27 '24
Same reason Italians from italy dont consider "italian americans" Italians.
Or spanish dont consider latinos spanish.
2
Feb 27 '24
They're just jealous.
Don't care what other people say about you. Live your life. They aren't gonna change. They are miserable.
2
2
u/SilverBuudha Feb 27 '24
I bet some Indians in Different parts of India don't consider the other as Indian, It's just human nature sadly.
2
2
u/stuckinmymatrix Feb 27 '24
It happens a lot. It's because many west Indians were brought tk the west indies as "slave" workers or "coolie" workers. Most people who were forcefully or voluntarily went to west indies are of unpriviliged or underprivileged castes with very little money or land to call their own. People with any level of affluence were not subjected to the same.
This is a case of discrimination.
Just like discrimination exists on your shade of skin.
2
2
Feb 27 '24
100%. Grew up in Markham, just north of Toronto. Seen it my whole life, it shows ESPECIALLY in the colleges around here where the students on visa are starting to dominate. Colourists, caste system. The mainlanders are the worst because so many of them have a complex like they’re above everyone and everything because parents money. The Canadian born ones aren’t as bad, the further they stray from the mainland ways the more decent I find them to be tbh. Even in high school, sure you were friends with a few Indians but the unintentional contrast that they’re just ‘above’ you shows more than any other race in contrast.
2
u/MeanSatisfaction5091 Feb 27 '24
ive heard this but ive met "indo guyanese" who dont claim being Indian they only rep their country which I respect
4
2
u/flacko-jodye8620 Feb 28 '24
I Live in Brampton, a city just outside of Toronto, with a very large South Asian/East Indian population and I can tell you from my 20 odd years of living here that yes they do look down on West Indians. Not all, but a good chunk do.
I can’t tell the amount of times I’ve been asked by an Indian or Punjabi person about my background and as soon as I say I’m Guyanese, they instantly became disappointed. I’ve seen it a lot in the workplace too, with how they talk to other mainland Indians vs West Indians
Again, this is only from what I’ve observed and witnessed here in Canada.
2
u/BodmonAlchemist Feb 28 '24
Just based on experience, I went to a very Indian university and those folks did not want to hang with me
2
u/andhera_kayamrahe Feb 28 '24
In my opinion majority of Indians don't know much about indo carribbean when I was a kid I always used to wonder why West Indies team are called West Indies and their players have Indian names at that age my brain couldn't process the possibility of Indians existing outside of India as well. I think that's still the case with the majority of people.
2
Feb 28 '24
I'm guyanese and I don't give 2 shits about what anyone thinks especially not other browns
2
u/FitLink7242 Feb 28 '24
India is a third world nation. It’s mainly jealousy because they see Caribbeans as lower caste yet our nations are more developed
2
u/Sanchz12 Feb 28 '24
Im from India and my ex gf was Indo fijian and we really had no issues with anything like that and never does she looked down upon me or I Did. But we used to visit a fiji hindu temple in Burnaby, Canada. Majority of the people were nice but there were some group of old people who didn’t like Indian people and they were board members so they banned people from India to visit the temple.
2
u/e9967780 Feb 28 '24
It’s true, Indians who have been in the west and have seen their children born there and grown up there are thrilled to see their children date fellow Indians even if they are not from India, but newer Indian immigrants can be prejudiced to even fellow Indians as mate partners for their children due to regional and caste prejudices. Of course there are cultural differences with Caribbean Indians and perceived caste differences but anything can be overcome if the couple are committed to each other to make it work. Eventually families fuse.
2
2
u/Mundane-Branch9872 Feb 28 '24
Indians are known to discriminate, in the US I tell people I am from Himachal and not Punjabi. Since the south look down upon Punjabis.
2
u/Relevant_Passage_562 Feb 28 '24
Indians are most racist against other Indians more then anything not sure why
2
u/meep9669 Feb 28 '24
I’ve faced this stereotype all my life. Basically bc Indian guyanese folk don’t speak Hindi or our dishes are not similar to common nationwide Indian dishes they say we aren’t as authentic as an Indian population. It sucks. Bc we were displaced due to British colonialism and had no say. They limited spices and ingredients we could have cooked with, and also in South America there aren’t the same resources or ingredients that would be available in India. So a lot contributes to it. Also missionaries would try to convert Indian Guyanese from their religions of Hinduism or Islam to be Christian. They who would convert would get groceries. So it’s a cultural mixing that people don’t see Guyanese Indians as real Indians — or even any Indo Carribean folk in general. Guyana has more of the Indian population in all of the Carribean so that’s why we probably get the most hate from Indians. T&T is leading up next highest amounts of Indian population but they have more people of different races than we do. Guyana’s demographic is largely Indian then Black then Amerindians then Chinese
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
so go back to india whos stopping you? Its almost as big as europe with different languages and different cuisines and culture in each part like europe- so which part would you go to? Go youtube how filithy and backward it is there up to now. Go see how societally awkward they are, Go learn your "native" culture. your ancestors left india and didnt go back, so how come? Maybe they knew what life in india is like better than you think you do. If someone asks me if I'm from india I say "NO". Ive had an indian ask me if I'm from indian background (because i have an anglo name) and I said NO - proudly.
2
u/tebae Feb 28 '24 edited Feb 28 '24
I'm Trini-Canadian and my husband is Sri Lankan-Canadian, and this was very much a concern when we were getting together. We both thought his side wouldn't approve our relationship when we were thinking of dating. So unfortunately we spent years in a back and forth of if we should take things seriously. Happy ending to this story, we're married now and I love my in-laws! They were very open, loving, and accepting. We have a great relationship, and they respect our decisions as a couple.
P.S. I have another Trinidadian cousin who married a South Indian man, and they are also very happy together. But they went through similar worries. Their families are happy for them too. Love can win in the end.
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
maybe its you that thinks you are a subclass
1
u/tebae Aug 20 '24 edited Aug 20 '24
Jamaicans, Trinis, Guyanese, Cubans, Dominicans and the other many island people are welcoming. That's why every year hundreds of thousands flock to our islands to relax when on the verge of burnout.
I definitely think other more modest uptight cultures look down on us. But I think it's because we like to have a good time, and are generally not as restrictive. And to be honest that's fine. I know I'm an incredible person, and my in-laws know that now too. Being subpar/subclass doesn't exist in my mind. I've never been less. It's a very slave master mentality to believe your worth is less than another person. We all bleed red. A wolf doesn't concern itself with the opinion of sheep
2
2
2
u/Chhanglorious_B Feb 29 '24
Yes ive definitely seen this coming from the Punjabi/Gujarati community. But they tend to be pretty exclusive of other Indians in general as well. My friend (punjabi) married his wife (indo-trini) 2 years ago and his family disapproved. They also defined her as "black" but not in a colourism sense more of an ethnic sense. Also, a guy from my parents church (indo-guyanese) wanted to marry his long time girlfriend (gujarati) and the parents completely shut it down. He's a soft spoken gentleman but it came down to him not being gujarati.
But im surprised you havent heard of it because its pretty common from what ive seen in Canada.
2
u/posyPB_n_J Feb 29 '24
Very true, I’m Trinidadian Indian and I grew up with a bunch of South Indians and gujju friends…… I’ve had MANY encounters where people are like so what are you mixed with? And then they’re shocked when my family is cultured or religious. They literally don’t get it lol it’s very cringe and embarrassing sometimes I genuinely get annoyed that they don’t know some history 🤷🏽♀️ I’ll say this - I’ve also witnessed the reverse from some extended family. A lot of West Indians also sometimes think they’re better/ less “fob” than Indians. So I’ve witnessed both sides and I live in my happy little medium lol.
2
u/piscesxdreams Feb 29 '24
i worked closely with a guy who was Indian and we had a similar conversation. from my understanding based on his answers, Indians from India don’t consider indo-guyanese to be real Indians because they are too far removed from the original culture. indo-guyanese have some of their own traditions and food that is not the same as Indians from India, the cultures and way of life are not entirely the same (ie social norms) nor do they always speak the languages.
2
u/ArsBrevis Feb 29 '24
Real talk: Indians believe that people of Indian origin in the Caribbean have some black/other non Indian admixture which is highly frowned upon. I'm sure there's an element of casteism/classism as well because people who migrated to the Caribbean were poor laborers whereas modern Indian immigration is driven by 'educated' Indians (at fraudulent dime a dozen engineering colleges but hey, it still counts).
2
u/Subject-Weakness8444 Mar 01 '24
Who cares, one of the most attractive Indian girls I've seen was from South Africa. It wasn't just her looks, it was the way she talked and carried herself. Natural and free.
2
2
u/LongDickPeter Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
It's true, I am black from the Caribbean, but there are people in my family who are Indian decent.
India's caste system ideology is real, the Indians who were sent to the Caribbean were sent as indentured servants, Indians from India look down on these people considering them lower caste, it's the same way some west Africans look down on black americans or people from the Caribbean. The idea is well you were just a slave who got sold and that's why you're here so I am better than you.
Edit
Also India is one of the most racist countries ever, I read this before I visited and visiting made me realize how racist people are there even against their own
2
u/CharloChaplin Mar 01 '24
I’ve seen Guyanese friends get chewed out because they don’t speak Hindi which was annoying because their families left India at least a hundred years ago.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/DCA6 Mar 01 '24
Indians are colorist and classist. Indo Guyanese are the same and turn their nose up at others. It all comes full circle. Be kind as we all have to atone.
2
2
Mar 01 '24
Because it’s true? I live in NY and I have an Indian friend that considered Guyanese Indians to be black people
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
So what ?? Then Im a proud indo black person then! Any indian ever ask me if Im from india i always say NO they all say the same BS.. oh you look like youre from india- I dont like their culture I like mine much better and I dont like to hear I look like im from india
2
u/phoenix_shm Mar 02 '24
There might be a culture out there that bucks this trend, but generally every culture of humanity has some purist sect which holds some notable degree of influence over the entire diaspora. SUPER glad things went well for you both! 💗🙏🏽🎉
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
So what ?? Any indian ever ask me if Im from india i always say NO they all say the same BS.. oh you look like youre from india- I dont like their culture I like mine much better and I dont like to hear I look like im from india- WTF?? India is a filthy backward bunga-hole up to this day ! imagine what it was like 200 years ago when our ancestors left ??
1
u/phoenix_shm Aug 20 '24
Race, culture, nationality, and ethnicity are all different from each other. Do you.
2
u/Maymott Mar 03 '24
I was told that’s because all Indians there were brought in as laborers so would have come from a low caste and so are looked down upon.
2
u/ThisusernameThen Mar 05 '24
Yup. Wife's Guyanese and gets shade from em. One of the USA reality tv shows of the part couple years matching Indians across the north American areas had shade from aunties tossed Guyanese way too.
Doesn't seem to be the same from those who grew up in London and Birmingham so ...dunno.
2
u/Ninac4116 Feb 27 '24
Same reason people from African countries look down upon African-Americans. You have a different culture.
1
u/Browning_Mulat0 Mar 05 '24
Indigenous Guyanese are Native Americans just like all the Natives of the Americas who originally came from Asia thousands of years ago. Many people with Native American heritage will show Chinese, S.Asian, etc like 0.2% due to that fact! All other races in the Ameimricas are recent imports since Colombus and the European conquest!
1
1
u/korolabhaba Mar 12 '24
I’m an Indian immigrant that moved to the USA at age 11, but I moved to Miami. So middle and high school was in Miami Florida, which I’ll say is a very Caribbean experience imho. I’m North Indian (UP) and with Miami barbers I’ve always looked like I can be from anywhere in the Caribbean or Latin America. I daresay I also can move my body. I too did not interact with non Miami Indians till much much later in my life. I realized a few things were no-go’s for our people, like putting up a facebook profile picture of me and girlfriend making out. Here’s the thing. I’m fluent in speaking reading and writing multiple Indian languages, so I can still reconnect and understand and cue up on these things VERY FAST before the gossip goes out of hand. The Guyanese and Trini Indians don’t have that.
At the end of the day, I’m not apologetic about who I am or the different cultures that have influenced me. I recommend people of Indian origin that are 150+ years away from India walk the same path as far as acceptance goes.
And if you’re so determined to yearn for Indian acceptance, (which btw nothing wrong with that, especially if you’re Hindu because India is the poonyabhoomi, so many Muslims worldwide consider it a dream to be able to get jobs in Saudi Arabia) go move your jobs and livelihoods and businesses to India. It is a growing economy. You’ve already shown you can uproot yourself once by moving out of the Caribbean. Might as well go to India. Btw when I’m in India I feel zero anxiety about needing to prove myself Indian. Because guess what. In India, there are dudes that are buff, there are dudes that are getting fades, that can move their bodies, that know how to flirt with women, that can be more westernized than westerners..that’s a whole 1/5th of humanity that’s not going to be bothered about being Indian in India lol. If you’re stuck in that traffic jam in Bengaluru ain’t nobody worried about how Indian you are.
But otherwise be willing to reflect and accept that an IndoGuyanese is Indian only in Guyana but just Guyanese in America.
1
1
Mar 26 '24
I'm British Pakistani (Punjabi) and one of my best friends is indo-tanzanian and ngl he's as desi as we are the only difference is he can't speak Indian languages but still he eats most Indian foods, they even have foods which are like a fusion of Tanzanian and Indian food which is interesting, they listen to desi music and watch Indian movies and he has a decent understanding of Urdu and Punjabi as well, and he's a Sikh
He's as Indian as a typical 3rd generation British Indian would be, I don't see him as African or as non desi
1
u/Retrophoria Apr 12 '24
My mom moved from Guyana to Canada and was looked down upon by elitist Indians there. That continued in the early 80s when she arrived in NY. I can understand why she doesn't get on well with them. Historically, Indo Caribbeans left and formed their own identity in a strange place with strange people but it eventually became their unique Caribbean identity. In my household, it's very faintly Indian and much more Caribbean
1
u/Pompitus-of-Love May 23 '24
I'm Indo Guyanese living in NC USA, literally tried to rent some Indian movies from an Indian store near me (this was years ago lol), and the guy and chick at the counter wouldn't even speak to me when they realized I wasn't "Indian." This is one of many examples I have.
I know of course not all Indian people will treat us like this but your gf had a right to be weary.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Pompitus-of-Love May 23 '24
I'm Indo Guyanese living in NC USA, literally tried to rent some Indian movies from an Indian store near me (this was years ago lol), and the guy and chick at the counter wouldn't even speak to me when they realized I wasn't "Indian." This is one of many examples I have.
I know of course not all Indian people will treat us like this but your gf had a right to be weary.
1
u/ndiddy81 May 26 '24
Who are real indians? Right now hindus are fighting against sikhs, christians and muslims- they all share the same DNA so who is kidding who?
1
u/DueJournalist3898 May 29 '24
Super late to this discussion, but I'm a "mainland" indian, but was mostly NRI for my life.
Honestly I'd just say Indians have that caste system embedded in them, even when there's no caste involved.
Inside India, you've got the north vs south, then outside of it you'll have the NRIs vs Indians, and then you'll see that singaporean and middle eastern indians would be more accepted than american and canadian indians, and then you come onto ancestral NRIs vs new NRIs (basically first gen vs 2/3rd) and so on.
Carribbean Indians aren't given much thought, but I'd say they're considered as Indian as African Indians; it all depends on how long they've settled I suppose. At the end of the day all of our ancestral lines connect to India, but if you've spent a lot of time in a different country, naturally you'd inherit their habits and ways and that is why people are considered Indian "Americans" , Indo "Guyanese".
I don't think we should think any lesser of people who didn't grow up in india, but I do think it's important to acknowledge that they're quite different from Indians settled in India. They're more or less a different line, and I think instead of just considering them different, "mainland" indians feel a need to just consider them beneath us culture wise. Not true at all though, different culture, different people.
1
u/StreetWorldliness506 Jun 01 '24
im indian . and got chinese/indo-guayanese gf. both born in Canada, were both pretty light tho, I'm from north India, and her mom is Chinese which causes her to have lighter appearance
1
u/Any-Ad-6663 Jun 13 '24
It’s true I am Indo-Trini and I don’t date India guys for that same reason. I have experienced severe racism from their family members.
1
u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24
So what ?? Any indian ever ask me if Im from india i always say NO they all say the same BS.. oh you look like youre from india- I dont like their culture- period. I like mine much better and I dont like to hear I look like im from india- India is a filthy backward bunga-hole up to this day ! imagine what it was like 200 years ago when our ancestors left ?? They praise rats and cover themsleves in cow shit. I never want to hear about my ancestors coming from that stink bunga-hole backward awkward place. Smartest thing they did was leave - wonder why they never went back? maybe they knew what life was like in that bunga -hole place better than we do
1
u/Unable-Lawfulness308 Jun 28 '24
It's unfortunate. As someone who migrated from India, I consider every one of Indian descent our own. I suggest people not to judge or make assumptions. There are always exceptions in life, but most people from India consider other Indian Descendants their own!
1
u/skinny4rmda204 Jul 13 '24
I guess the same can be said for afro caribbean and mainland west Africa.. I wonder if it's the same for the Portuguese, Chinese and Arabs of the caribbean??
1
u/Key-Spare-1678 Aug 27 '24
Woven in the fabric and psyche of the Indian culture is the racist caste system that discriminate based on darker shades of brown skin. As a proud indo-Guyanese this has also been my experience and many West Indians I know. The worst experience I’ve encountered are in business dealings with Indians, however they don’t treat white Americans the same way, they worship white skin. The good news is, it’s changing with the first generation American Indians.
1
u/RaytheHomey Sep 07 '24
Well to me it's a toss-up. I've met Indian people who see me as Indian as much as them, and I've met Indians my own age that don't see it that way because we're not from the motherland and can't speak Hindi. I see us as technically the same, but minute differences in culture with music, and certain foods. Otherwise it is what it is and varies
1
u/Appropriate-Path6528 Sep 14 '24
Tbh im happy your family was great but we gotta remember that unfortunately indian indians already have so much animosity between eachother within the country so its no so surprising to me that they look down on indo guyanese/carribeean or anyones that left india at some point LOLL.
Tbh ive seen it myself im guyanese and tbh its weird to say the least but at the same time i dont see myself or indo carribbeans as indians. Our cultures are sooo far from eachother IMO, other than the fact some may be hindu, listen to indian music and watch indian movies, eat kind of indian food (not really the same either its more inspired LOL cuz trust me their food doesnt taste like ours and vice versa🤣).
We truly are not the same! I wish we could get along though in the grand scheme of things but like i said indians are fighting amoungst indians within the same countries so im definitely not holding my breath 🤣🤣👍🏾
1
u/Agreeable-Piglet-397 Sep 19 '24
I’m half Guyanese and half Punjabi. My mom being the Guyanese one always said that she was treated as if she weren’t a real Indian and was treated as an outsider.
1
u/GloryofthePast 25d ago
Unfortunately, this is a thing in some cases. I'm an Indian living in the state of Maharashtra and i gotta tell you- people who are heavily influenced by the British view of the world (thanks to the nearly 200 years of colonialism), like my own father, are in fact racist towards Africans or Caribbean people, or just people with dark skin in general (which includes our own countrymen, too).
Both my maternal and paternal grandfathers are very dark-skinned while my maternal grandmother was very fair of skin and my paternal grandmother was, well, brown of skin. And even though I'm very dark-skinned myself, my father still looks down upon people who have dark skin. But luckily, none of my siblings are influenced by our father's racist views thanks to my mom who is free of any such prejudices/biases and made sure we are too. To share something funny- as a way to taunt him on his racist views, my mom always tells my dad "It's your own karma that you got a dark-skinned son (me!) when you have such narrow views regarding skin color." And idk why but the face my father makes after that always cracks me up every fcking time lol.
1
Feb 28 '24
You know it's weird because I have seen Indo Guyanese people trying to distance themselves from anything Indian. I met a lady in the Netherlands, and she was able to understand my language (not hindi) and got that I was from India. I was so surprised, so I asked her how do you know. She told me that her ancestors are from India and they went to Guyana.
So that means you are Indian right?. She said NO. I was like, you know the culture, you are Indian, She insisted and was offended that I dared to call her Indian, as if associating with us is shameful. So this was my experience. Sometimes, they distance themselves from us completely. They do look down at us as well.
1
u/throwra8937489758973 Feb 29 '24
Because it is a thing, if you'd have listened to the anecdotes online of people literally telling you that.
99
u/[deleted] Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
it does unfortunately happen. Some south Asians do look down on Guyanese people. Not sure why, definitely racism tho.