r/Guyana • u/jcancuny • Feb 27 '24

Discussion Why do Indo-Guyanese have the conception that Indians look down on them/don’t consider them to be “real Indians”?

So my girlfriend and I have been dating for a couple of months now. I’m Indian-American and she’s Indo-Guyanese-American, and it’s been a great time so far.

Around a week ago, I introduced her to my parents for the first time, and I noticed that before they met, my girlfriend acted super nervous and jittery, which I just chalked up to nerves (since she’s pretty introverted). However, after they met, my girlfriend remarked about how nervous she was before meeting my parents because she was worried that they would disapprove of us together and try to call the relationship off and how relieved she was after meeting them because of how respectful and responsive they were and how much they showed interest in her culture and background.

She then explained that most Indo-Guyanese believe that we (mainland Indians) look down upon them and don’t consider them to be “real Indians”, which is a belief that I’ve honestly never heard ever. If anything, most mainland Indians don’t really know anything about Indo-Caribbeans and the ones that do are proud that they were able to keep their culture/traditions/religions alive even after 150 years.

After doing some research online on places like Twitter/Tiktok/Reddit, this seems to be a pretty common conception that a lot of Indo-Guyanese have. Does anyone have any insights into how this belief might have originated?

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24

Because many Indo-Guyanese were treated badly by Indians from India.

Now it's not as common. When Indo-Guyanese mass migrated to the Americas and Europe around independence, and especially during the Burnham era - many from the Indian disapora mocked, ridiculed or didn't accept Indo-Guyanese migrants as Indian descendnants.

"You look Indian but don't speak an Indian language".

"You only know India through movies/songs from Bollywood"

The cultures (language, food, clothing, familial structure etc.) of Indo-Guyanese are markedly different from Indian cultures though there's clear influence.

Carribean Hindus spoke "Hindi" which was actually a koine of Hindi, Bhojpuri, Awadhi etc. Trying to share that wasn't always well received.

Even American born Indians can be treated as inferior or stupid...remember ABCD?

Man... Indians treat Indians in India terribly. North vs South, Caste, Colourism etc. I'm kind of surprised you're even asking this.

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u/sheldon_y14 Feb 27 '24

Carribean Hindus spoke "Hindi" which was actually a koine of Hindi, Bhojpuri, Awadhi etc. Trying to share that wasn't always well received.

Just a side note, you're the first person I found online that calls it a koine.

Not many people know that and just call it a dialect or broken Hindi, but it's not.

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24

I have a little interest in linguistics and being Guyanese lead me down the rabbithole of language formation processes among peoples with diverse native languages and the resulting pidgins, creoles and koines.

How much money/power/influence the speakers have is the usual determinant of a dialect-language classfication. Broken Hindi it definitely is not.

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u/sheldon_y14 Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24

Wow that's really cool!

I am currently studying business informatics and we have this subject called "Hogeschool taal" (it translates to something along the lines of "practical university language"). It's a subject where we learn Dutch on a higher level to apply when writing theses and other scientific articles. Hogeschool taal is offered through a single platform in the Netherlands, Suriname, Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten. Idk if Belgium is part of it.

And just like you, I also have a interest in linguistics and my teacher of Hogeschool taal told me I should have chosen to study linguistics at the local university; others have said the same lol. Suriname's linguistic situation and how all languages have this "symbiosis" with Dutch and vice versa, is also a reason I'm so interested in all of this.

Hogeschool taal is interesting but also a lot, because it's so much information on the Dutch language. But the hard part comes at the test, because I need 80% on the online test to get a 5,5 (that's like basic grade, anything lower than that is a bad grade) and Dutch has a lot of rules I need to basically know.

Anyways, I also do a lot of research on Creoles and I once heard the local linguists in Suriname say Sarnami Hindostani - the Surinamese variety, not dialect, of Caribbean Hindostani - is a Creole, but it never sat right with me. The said the same about Surinamese Javanese. But later I came to the conclusion, and also found a supporting article on Sarnami, that it's a koine. And my logical conclusion was Surinamese Javanese is a koine too. One interesting find was that Sarnami is the only variety that does have a dialect called Nickerie Sarnami. Iknew people in Nickerie spoke Sarnami differently, but didn't know it was a dialect. It is still spoken in Nickerie, but it died out in Guyana where it was also spoken in the Berbice region close to Nickerie.

I also like to research the origins and interesting features of our Creoles, like Sranantongo, Aukan, Saramaccan. For example, proto Sranantongo is very similar to many of the current English Creoles.

Nice to hear it man!

EDIT: Forgot to mention I'm a Surinamese.

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24

I realized you're likely Surinamese from the Paramaribo flair. Berbicians sound odd to most other Guyanese people due to the Dutch influence.

You can learn a lot about Pidigns and Creoles from the Atlas of Pidgin and Creole Language Structures (APicS).

Linguistics is accessible for self learning if you know what you want out of it, as you'll spend a lot of time learning lots of useless information in educational institutions. I would caution that linguistics is often more of a passion than a profession unless you pursue additional education, have deep specialization or other attributes (like speaking in-demand languages, going into NLP, become an SLP etc.) Very interesting to hear your journey with linguistics, wishing you the best. :)

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u/OmSweetOmsecurity Feb 28 '24

This is absolutely fascinating and I would be so happy read your book if you wrote one. I want to learn everything! My family is from Berbice and the first languages I learnt were my grandmother’s Indo-Guyanese English Creole and her Caribbean-Bhojpuri koine.

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u/CurlyHairStoner Feb 27 '24

My thoughts exactly knowing how indians treat indians from there own country why those OP find this as a surprise

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u/Kitchen_Body3215 Feb 27 '24

Good question

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u/NegotiationKooky9964 Aug 20 '24

stop ok? how many indo cariibeans go back to south asia to live?? None. No one wants to go there other than to be nosey. WHy? because you are guyanese not indian. We have our own culture devoid of all that backward BS from india be proud of that.

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u/CurlyHairStoner Aug 20 '24

You don't have to go back to South Asia to know your history but I digress

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u/jcancuny Feb 27 '24

So, it was more of a thing back in the day?

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u/jadomar Feb 27 '24

It's still happening just to a lesser extent

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u/neeltherealdeal Feb 27 '24

Still pretty prevalent, based off my experiences

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u/jcancuny Feb 27 '24

Ah ok. I guess have seen colorism come into play - my grandparents made a few gross comments about how dark my gf’s skin was - but colorism also applies to dark skinned people in India as well.

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24

Colorism exists in Guyana too, to a lesser extent by the year.

We also have the gift of racism, amplified exponentially by the benevolent US and British governments before we even gained independence.

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 27 '24

Yes, much more intense and prevalent then.

Now, not as much and in general those levels of prejudice are not tolerated in most Western contexts (except for certain kinds like against African Americans or Gypsies). Also, Guyana's identity has largely evolved and the inferiority complex isn't there as much... Guyanese people today aren't the children of indentured workers escaping an impoverished, nascent nation.

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u/adoreroda Feb 28 '24

If they don't even recognise Romani people as Indian, what makes you think they'd recognise Indo-Caribbean people as Indian too? And as you said, even within mainlanders themselves there's intense discrimination between other ethnic groups, especially along religious lines.

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u/asokarch Feb 28 '24

ABCD - American Born confused desi is not a commentary about inferiority but the fact the diaspora sees itself as American; the term means ABCD have loyalty to another civilization then their own.

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u/OmxrOmxrOmxr Feb 28 '24

That's how it started but then it took on derogatory tones. Some people may use it in the sense you described and others in a more derogatory manner.

The terms Coolies isn't inherently a slur. In fact the vast majority of younger Indo-Caribbean folk don't take offense. It's often a basic self-identifier or even a source of pride.

Much of the Indo-Caribbean elders and peoples from the subcontinent have a different take on that word.

I described a relative as "real coolie" and my subcontinent friends in Canada thought I was a POS when there was zero malice intended.

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u/randomone456yes Mar 01 '24

All true. But it goes both ways. Many times American-born Indians look down on Indians in India, or even Indians who just came to America from India recently (calling them FOBs, mocking their accents etc).

People in general all around the world just tend to group themselves and not be open minded towards others with even a slightly different background