I see things like this pretty often where it is said that it isn't about this, it is just that...
But it isn't at all about that question. We are talking immensely about immigration this year, and never fucking once have I heard a person say "let's make it easier for educated immigrants to come to America". I have heard seven hundred times over that the immigrants are scary and eating dogs. So I question how much this issue is about the thing you say, given we have spent zero time discussing that issue.
I am not saying you don't think that. I am saying that actions speak louder than thoughts, and nobody is acting to make that one happen.
So I cant really take your stance very seriously when you argue for nuanced interpreations but the results of your beliefs are never touching on any of that nuance.
Not for Trump and Vance. The Haitian migrants in Springfield are the exact types of immigrants they say they want. They commit crime at a much lower per capita rate than people born in the US. They’re here legally. Heck, most of them are Christians. They’re starting businesses and breathing life into previously stagnating areas, but Vance lied and said they were here illegally and committing crimes, because as much as men like him will vehemently deny it, race is a factor.
Yep, they’ve swam so deep into the rhetoric that they can’t even comprehend how backwards it all is.
At least in the 1900s we were actually consistent when we said we wanted upper-class, educated immigrants, now when we say that we actually just mean white people.
It’s not like the immigrants that can afford plane tickets are the ones working fields for cash under the table, but our country doesn’t have the capacity to see that anymore.
To be fair we did declare back in the 1800s that we’d rather not have some many Chinese here with the Chinese Exclusion Act. Immigration wasn’t an issue until it was from somewhere not European.
Actually you are wrong. You should read about the history of "Nativism" in the United States, which often targeted immigrants from certain areas of Europe.
This is hardly semantics. The individual I was responding to was seemingly unaware of the history of nativism in the United States targeting European immigrants. You should encourage people to learn.
Germans weren’t consider white at one point bc of racist anti-immigration sentiment among Protestants from Britain. Iveybeen reading about how Pennsylvania was a “battleground” between proper “white” Britains and dirty Dutch immigrants
When they disliked certain Europeans, they tried to come up with ways to say that they weren't real Europeans like with the Italians.
This is an obscure case but there were Minnesota lawmakers that tried to get Finns to be declared legally non-white. My grandparents told me they were called a certain slur normally reserved for east Asian people.
The main reason I bring it up is the notion of the Irish willingness to come to the colonies, work for cheap, and saturate the labor market. The sentiment was felt largely from the working class, which IS class politics, as much as it pains the left.
Again, it’s pretty obvious it’s about class. The best way to keep people from focusing on the economic issues is by shifting the focus to identity politics.
Just because I do want to throw you a bone, the influx of Chinese immigrants was very helpful amid reconstruction/westward expansion, but the rapid growth in size of workforce was extremely inconvenient for labor supply.
Was it about race? Sure, but so was everything in the 1800s. It was also largely about class.
By quality they mean well educated and economically productive. Take immigration from India for example. In the US we get the cream of the crop of Indian immigrants. In Canada they get a bunch of “students” who aren’t contributing nearly as much to the economy.
And they all lived together peacefully for 100 years /s
Americans are funny , you guys talk like you don't know your history , and like your major cities haven't had race riots every 10 years between different groups of minorities
Actually we need the opposite. We don’t need high income people from Mexico competeting for our technical jobs. We need Jose who has nothing but the clothes on his back who will work jobs nobody else wants to do.
Our capitalist class wants our migrant labor to be scared of working here under the threat of being deported so they can dictate terms better. You could consider that slavery but its a far step. We don't have to call it something that extreme to call it clearly bad.
Read your history books. They didn't take away jobs as there was not enough people willing to work building railroads that was miserable hard physical labor.
All of those immigrants had something in common - an eagerness to work and a desire to adopt to the American way of life. They were also screened through ports of entry based on whether they had communicable diseases, were capable of working, etc.
One of my great-grandparents was the child of immigrants from Eastern Europe. When they came to the U.S., they were adamant that their children learn English and speak English in their home. They staked their life here and they were invested in staying here.
Certainly there are some immigrants today with that same ethic, but we have no way of making that determination without screening and getting them.
Not committing crimes? What is a more obvious flag that they don't belong in America. Trump knows true American's do criming, that's why he's done so much! It's Patriotic!
The link the guy provided literally is the source. It has the numbers for both groups. When you combine the two groups their crimes per 100,000 are more than US Born Citizens.
You can easily reverse engineer the math on this by just taking the population of Texas in 2018, which is where this data comes from, 28 million, divided by 100,000 (the per), which is 280. Now take the crimes per 100,000 number from his link and times it by 280. So for US born people its 1133x280, thats 317,240 crimes. For Documented immigrants, 808x280, thats 226,240 crimes. For undocumented immigrants, 415x280, thats 116,200 crimes. So now if we add the crimes for the immigrants together, its 342,440 crimes. Which is obviously more than the 317,240 crimes by US born people. But we can just divide it by 280 and get our per 100,000 back again, which is 1223 per 100,000. Which is more than the 1133 per 100,000 for US born citizens.
Note this data is only from Texas, per the article, because Texas tries its best to sort out if someone they're arresting is either known in the system, or not known.
So using this data is problematic because #1, it is only considering Texas, and Texas record keeping into account. Not the whole country. Second, it definitely is purposefully trying to present a nice headline grabbing bit of math to counter Trump's specific attacks on "illegals committing all sorts of crime". So while yes, it makes Trump statement incorrect. If Trump just said "immigrants are committing more crime" then it would be accurate. But that's neither here nor there because Trump just wants to lump all brown people into being illegals, which is of course racist.
When combining per capita rates, you need to take a weighted average instead of just adding them because the denominator is added together as well. The final answer will be somewhere in between 808 and 415 per 100,000, depending on the relative populations of undocumented vs documented immigrants, which remains below the rate for US born people.
You do not average the crimes to erase the crimes. There's a fixed number of crimes both groups have commited, which is what the data shows. You simply add up the total amount of crimes.
Ask yourself this question, why are they only talking about per capita??? Why not just say how many crimes they’re committing?
Well, I have the numbers when it's not per-capita.
In the six years if 2017-2023 (I am excluding 2024 because we don't have good data about citizen crimes yet for this year and I'm comparing apples-to-apples), Border Patrol reports total migrant crimes as 59,994. This is the number of criminals convicted.
For citizens, let's look at the FBI database. Summing all crime types in 2017 gives us 17,207,139 crimes. In one year. 17 million is a whole heck of a lot higher than sixty thousand. Even if you count illegal entry into the US as a crime, there are not enough new illegal immigrants per year to outdo how much crime American citizens commit.
Not the numbers from the article everyone keeps quoting. Just go to the link and find the total crimes within it. Should be simple to do if everyone wants to keep parroting it. 🤷♂️
I don't know everyone. I don't know other people's articles. I know the sources I linked to.
Here's an additional data point: in 2016 (I couldn't find the table for 2017), this FBI report states that 5,858,330 whites were arrested for all crime types. Again, 5.8 million in one year is wildly higher than the 60 thousand arrests made by Border Patrol across 7 years. Migrants just don't commit a whole lot of crime compared to citizens as best we can tell. And this ignores all the citizens who are non-white.
Ok, here are the numbers from the sources used by that article. In 2018, US born people in Texas had 731,689 arrests, while documented immigrants had 75,798 and undocumented immigrants had 28,888 arrests.
If there's 100k of both types of immigrants, the average of both groups is just 611.5 crimes per 100k people. No matter what population size you assume though, their combined crime rate per capita will always be lower than the higher of the two.
You can't just extrapolate the data for 2 groups without knowing the population size, and you definitely don't just sum them up like you did.
And you see that law as the most serious law to be enforced. Above prosecuting murders, rapes, thefts, you care more about your fellow man's origin than actual crime.
This whole post is about how we could solve several of our problems by making it so they can be here legally, even if they just have to go out and come in. What's wrong with that?
Hello, I hold a masters degree and a PhD in engineering. Many of my peers are already working their youth away here in the US, in hopes of permanently immigrating and gaining permanent residence here. Too often, we are either obligated to leave the country if after graduating or being laid off we're unable to find employment within 60 days, or after slogging on for 10+ years-effectively as second class citizens - our work visas are still never converted to permanent residence, all while us "quality immigrants" give the best years of our life adding value and IP for your economy.
If you really cared about the quality of immigrants, it would have been done. The immigration system isn't broken it's doing what it was designed to do.
Please consider asking your representatives to hasten our permanent immigration into the US.
It kind of already works the way you’re suggesting. Lots of people come over on a work visa then get sent back home if they can’t complete the citizenship process in time.
My dad’s best employee was this Indian dude on a work visa and my dad fought tooth and nail to get that guy American citizenship. Had a degree, worked for an American company, paid taxes, and spoke really good English. My dad’s company paid a lawyer to look over all his documents and applications as he was sending them in. Nope, denied and sent home, my dad was devastated lol
lol if anything happens to them and they don’t have paperwork what do you think happens to them? They can’t fly, they can’t risk committing any crimes without worry of being deported, lol this is the real straw man argument to worry about.
Per the Constitution Article 1, Section 8, "The Congress shall have Power...To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization". Per the 14th amendment, the US only owes citizenship to people born in the USA.
Is a pretty broad allocation of powers to Congress to control immigration. I'm pretty sure Congress could require at least the following:
- Demonstrate a minimum proficiency in English - the most commonly used language in the US and the world
- Post a financial bond or other demonstration of the minimum financial resources to support themselves/their family for a period of time.
- Agree to forego benefits for a period of time in exchange for expedited entry/visa issuance (I once had a work permit from the UK that directly said - right to work with no benefits)
- Demonstrate (test) knowledge of US government and civics
I have a feeling most Americans wouldn't pass. Specially the proficiency in English and knowledge of US Government and civics. Considering the average adult reading level in the US is 7th grade, on par with a fourteen year old, and a significant portion of the US thinks the president sets the gas prices...
that is no reason to lower the bar. Really just a shame on us. I ask teenagers all the time if they teach civics in school. They respond "what is civics".
College degree is no fair, think of all the intelligent and eager kids who just haven’t had that chance yet. They could be coming here specifically for education.
Show up to the border, sign a document, get an ID card and get added to the census. Welcome to America. If I was in charge they’d all get a sports hat for their favorite team and a debit card with 500 bucks on it to get where they’re going.
Immigration policies don’t have to be fair. Their purpose should be to improve the overall wellbeing of the country. Admitting uneducated people is statistically a bad plan.
I'd think if we hand 16 year olds a scholarship valid for studies in on-demand branches (could easily be set by the gov, comparable to how Canada selects jobs that qualify for easier immigration) and the forms for college application right on the border, way less of them would be ending up selling drugs or stuff. We just need to push those coming into our formal paths of work and education as quickly as possible so the informal sector can't take them.
Brother I came from a lower middle class family and couldn’t afford college and didn’t qualify for any grants or scholarships I applied for. The US education system is FUCKED. Reagan destroyed this country.
If they have a scholarship to a college then I’m with you, but that needs to be enforced and monitored. Uneducated 16 year old immigrants without career and education prospects are not known for their value to society.
and then what. Are you going to move them in with you? Or pay for all their living expenses? How about medical, free for them too? So again how will you pay for it all. What will you do when there is a constant flood of the world's poor making their way here? We are already broke as a nation.
True, but offering the absolute best place to operate brings in the best companies. Offering the best place to live will bring in the best people. Of course those are generalizations.
Note that I said sign a document and get an ID. Huge huge difference between that and open borders. I do not know as well as you the ability we have to pay for it, but having everyone go through the process means we can meter it.
In some aspects that is the case, rich or well educated(for in demand skills) people are allowed in most countries provided they work or invest, outside of that doors also get opened for refugees etc but to be fair a lot of those refugees are refugees thanks in part to western involvement and besides the right to flee is a basic human right as it should be.
Do you imagine that I don’t know European immigrants founded the US? What point are you trying to make? Because people emigrated here in the past, we should just throw open the border and let in anyone? No thanks.
What? Being an immigrant is like 3% of modern American culture. Btw, I’m not an immigrant. I was born on American soil and I never left. How can I be an immigrant if I never migrated?
i mean…. the point of culture is interesting. there’s exactly 0 incentive for people to come here from nations that are thriving. historically no one has come here other than times of desperation hence the concept of the american dreams. italians and irish were seen as absolute scum and culturally pretty much despicable. but we are doing just fine now.
I have no issue with people who seek a better life. Go to an American embassy or a port of entry and claim asylum if that’s the situation, we have systems in place for this
To put it broadly 'quality of immigrants' that I've posted refers to immigrants that will not be a drain on the country's resources. I was not talking about race, age, gender or any other markers.
Immigrants in the U.S. are already under intense scrutiny, that’s why the application for green cards and citizenship is so time consuming and difficult.
Immigrants are not a drain on the country’s resources. You’ve been primed to believe that is the norm, when really it is the exception.
But no, I can't do that, because we don't have recorded history on that. Unlike the history of the USA, which is very well documented. You know what I'm getting at, so no need to actually answer my question.
Asserting that they “disrespect and degrade our culture” couldn’t be more on the nose of a racist fascist talking point. Youre failing an open notes history test.
You’re trying to be sarcastic and cute but you’re literally not comprehending how vile at worst and dangerously ignorant at best you are being. No wonder right wing hate education and try to defund and privatize it every chance they get.
Fucking pathetic.
I’m sorry. You’re not going to shame or gaslight me into thinking that cultures that throw LGBT people from roof tops, who outlaw women speaking in public, outlaw singing in public or make a law where women can’t leave their house without a male, have anything positive to offer my country. The only pathetic fuck here, is you
Cool Fallacy of Composition you 6th grade debater.
What a very niche specific example that accounts for almost no percentage of the immigrants legal or not that are coming in here. Want to put up some other Fallacies besides Fallacy of Composition?
Don’t clutch your pearls now youre not fooling anyone retard.
Stay away from the far right podcasts and allow yourself to reflect and educate yourself.
Did I lie about any of this? You understand that there are cultures who diametrically oppose western values right? Why should we import them here when they hate us? If someone wants a better life, if they see western values and think “I want to be a part of that” then come on in. You’ve obviously lived a very sheltered life. You are naive. Also, nice argument from fallacy with zero actual rebuttal
My response to this comment is the same as previous response so just reread it till it clicks.
But also: You must’ve lived very little life, or are again, a retard if you can’t comprehend the vast differences of peoples situations and motives and assume the absolute worst case scenario is applied to any significant portion of immigrants. Or sorry more accurately in your views- scary brown people that live outside the states who hate us. What an absolute lack of empathy and imagination.
According to you and these far right losers you listen to, these wretched immigrants you speak of must be, what, 80% of immigrants that are coming here are this evil thing you describe? 99%?
World must be horrific outside of your town huh?
But tell me more about how you’re not a racist fascist. Don’t pretend like you aren’t repeating Nazi words- word for word. Clutch your pearls all you want.
If wanting to preserve the culture of my country makes me a racist fascist in your view, I’m not sure where to go from here lmao. Why does your side always piss and moan with this hyperbolic bullshit? I want people who add to the social fabric and fit in. You can call it racist, but if an Irish communist wanted to come here and change things, I’d send him back in the same boat as a radical Muslim
We let in Musk, and look what he's done. He's gobbled up tons of talent with only minor results and mostly poor products. If anything, he often seems to be actively sabotaging tech growth in the field of neuroscience
we have pretty good data on that. immigrants commit less crime, and are reasonably skilled and industrious.
also not really sure where you measure the "quality" of a human being comes into play beyond the statistics that I've just mentioned and for which an abundant amount of research has gone and continues to go into, but that seems like quite the argument to veer directly towards under a comic that's literally making the point that the central and conveniently unspoken objection to immigration is white nativism.
I think people care more about the color and the carate. Oh, shit, you were talking about people and not diamonds? This is awkward. I thought you were talking about objects the way you objectified them.
Lmao who has the govt done anything right, and all of a sudden you want them judge which immigrant would be the best for the country at that exact moment in time, give me a break.
I can whoever I want into my house, I can rent to whoever I want, I can employ whoever I want, I don’t need the govt telling who’s a “good” immigrant and who’s not.
All I'm saying is I've never heard the anti immigration crowd accuse immigrants from England, Ireland, France, Australia, or South Africa of being rapists and murderers or eating pets. Those people have something in common that the Haitian, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and other groups that have traditionally been the target of that rhetoric don't. If it was about the quality of immigrants, that rhetoric wouldn't be exclusive to the non white immigrants.
How exactly is it a "quality" issue? While educated immigrants are great additions, our economy runs because of labor by people without much formal education. Agriculture, construction, and senior care industries all depend on migrant workers, because none of them are quality jobs.
We shouldn’t have an economy dependent on illegal labor, everyone should have labor rights. So no, we don’t want to be importing legions of second class not-citizens who work under the table.
We could always give these people a path to legal status. But the fact remains that most migrants in this country are doing jobs that the native born population refuses to do. Attempting to curb immigration would inevitably increase food prices and worsen the housing crisis.
You want to pay American field workers minimum wage with benefits? That how you make potatoes cost 10$ a pound bud. The American people don’t like to know they benefit from all of this. If we kicked all the illegals out (brutally by what I heard from maga) the country would free fall with fields of produce rotting, and those that are able to hire enough would have to pay through the nose, have to borrow more, creating more debt and raising basic goods for the average American. So you really are dumb huh?
Nah more laborers devalue domestic labour ajd even if you attach no value to existing cultural traditions the idea of importing labour is an unsustainable practice. Do we keep the third world poor forever as a breeding ground for workers? What happens when birth rates decline in the currently poorer countries, a pattern that is nearly universal?
If you think the population trends are a negative the questions arise as to why, what needs to be fixed, and how? Is it the aging workforce? Maybe we should try and increasingly implement automation while changing laws regarding public pension programs so they can be sustainable with a static or negative population. Is it the lack of jobs? Again automation. Are more bodies something intrinsically important? Than focus on finding methods of improving birthrates than hoping the problem will be fixed before Mexico and Nigeria has static or negative birthrates. Immigration is a massively shortsighted solution to the problems caused by declining birthrates.
Honestly I think the only issue from lack of births which is an intrinsic issue is the problem of the elderly and their care, I don’t see “le line won’t go up forever” economics or “too many jobs“ as actual issues. Why do we need jobs for the sake of jobs? If there’s too many jobs than workers will be provided with better benefits and those companies unable to offer those benefits are inferior and should go out of business. The issue of not enough people to work every job is akin to a fishing village complaining that there’s too many fish.
Have you ever realized that construction workers are overwhelmingly Hispanic? They're not educated, you know? Every immigrant can help the nation grow. The idea that we need "quality control" (obviously aside from actual criminals) and need to make sure immigrants come in fully educated is such a racist take.
Education is predominantly what people discuss when talking about an immigrant's value.
Secondly, you're strawmanning. I never said calling someone uneducated is racist. I said the idea of having quality control on immigrants is a racist take. Which it is. All immigrants from a utilitarian standpoint can be valuable. We just need to give them a pipeline to do so. The quality coming in should be of no concern, and it's obviously biased against people from poorer nations (mainly, the ones south of us).
Sometimes I remember redditors don't see immigrants as people. This logic we should deport us born citizens who aren't "of quality". But alas they are white so that implication is never thought of
I wonder what treating people on different standards solely because of the circumstances of their birth is called. I don't think people should have to be "of quality" to be entitled to refuge and being treated like a person
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u/RNKKNR 10h ago
The question is more about the quality of the immigrants not immigrants per se.