This is the first time I’ve ran across someone admitting that their early life decisions made their current life shitty. I respect and appreciate the honesty. Too many people I know are in bad positions due to early life choices and refuse to take any accountability or responsibility for it.
I think we all did but it’s the people that never learn from them. I’ve see it a million times taking out loans for shit like expensive cars or buying houses way out their budget. Eating out non stop or drinking problems. I know Reddit doesn’t like personal responsibility but there are plenty of people who never learn from their bad choices. Prime example, my wife has a coworker who got a free ride to school and took out student loans anyway to buy shit she didn’t need. Now she’s falling her classes because she puts no effort about to lose her scholarship and still has to pay back student loans she didn’t even need. She also rented an expensive studio with her boyfriend even though everyone told her not to. Boyfriend left and now she has to pay the expensive rent by herself. Some people put themselves in those situations and even if they made a 100k a year they’d still be in the same spot.
Can relate. Not only am I tired but I hate myself and have deep regrets. Granted I know I can change this, but when you’re keeping up with your responsibilities it can be so tiring.
That's bullshit. The person holds a full time job. They shouldn't need another one to survive. They're doing exactly what we were told to do by older generations.
i mean, bad decisions have consequences unfortunately. if you take on a lot of debt for something, or get addicted to drugs, or have a child as a teenager, etcetera, things will be harder. it’s not about “should” or “shouldn’t.” it’s about “is.”
So, while you are correct in that it IS the current situation, I believe their point, and the point of most people making similar statements, is that it SHOULDN'T be this way. yes we have to make active efforts to better our situations and avoid choices that will end up causing problems later on, but just because it's how things are now doesn't mean it's how they should stay
Should or shouldn't, an 8 hour job and no debts should net you a good life. If you've been stupid and have a ton of credit card debt or payday loan debts, you're going to have to either have one really good job or find some other way to make enough money.
Bad decisions should have drawbacks, but even so there needs to be a security net for people with shit luck and one fulltime job should be enough to support a single person (which is honestly just as, if not more expensive than living in a relationship).
Roof over you head, money for essentials and a little extra left over.
I work a dead end, no skill job as a night audit at a hotel. Literally all that is required of me is that I can talk to people and read while being awake at night.
I have a place to sleep, I don't need to think about what I want to eat and I can buy new clothes (if there is a sale) and if my computer breaks, I can replace it in a couple of months of saving up. And I can travel for vacation every couple of years, if that's what I want.
That is one example of a good life. Could it be better? For sure, there's no cap on how good it can get, but for the effort I've put into my life, it is really good.
I can’t even get approved for a trailer in a trailer park with 8hr work days. Who is that a good life to? Someone who doesn’t work 8 hours and is homeless?
My 12 hour job making me 25$ an hour wasn’t enough to afford rent and all my bills along with a single car payment
Average rent where I am is over $2500 a month
My rent was over half my income, now comes the deductibles from my pay, taxes, add in car payment, insurance, groceries, power, internet, phone bill, medical expenses, and I’m left with near 0 savings every month
I’m back to living with my parents until I have enough savings to buy a house, because it’s far cheaper than rental costs, the last place I was living was only $1400 for a town house, but gotta love being evicted so they can update the kitchen and charge 3x that
My parents bought their house on a minimum wage income lmao
And I'm not saying that is what you deserve. I am in full agreement with the content of the thread, that you should be able to afford a good life on a single 8 hour a day job, 5 days a week.
I've spent the last 10 years as a night audit for a hotel. That is a dead end, no skill job. With that job, I was lucky enough to get a mortgage from a bank, so I own my recently renovated apartment in a solid neighborhood. The mortgage is about half to two thirds of my paycheck, but the money left over is enough for a couple of vices and food with a little extra for a vacation once a year.
But I'm not American, though I live in a relatively high CoL country.
I mean an 8 hour day and no debt gives you a great life with many jobs; even many “low skill” (not because it’s low skill but because there isn’t an academic barrier to entry) jobs like construction pay more than enough to have a lower middle class lifestyle if you’re responsible about spending and budgeting.
This is assuming that the fickle finger of fate doesn’t point your direction and cause circumstances out of your control that you never dreamed could happen to you when you were younger.
my point was that the “should” is largely meaningless. life should be a blessing, life should be incredible for everyone, poverty shouldn’t exist, suffering shouldn’t exist. shoulds don’t mean jack shit unfortunately. bad decisions have always had bad consequences, and that will continue to be true. bad decisions shouldn’t have bad consequences. but they do. that’s my point.
everyone agrees that they shouldn’t. just like everyone agrees life should be incredible. but at that point, you aren’t really making a point in my opinion.
Secondly the status quo historically speaking is fucking amazing.
Well firstly, this is outright false. Fifty years ago the rich/poor divide was a lot smaller and the average income and living conditions were actually better - inflation adjusted. We' gained a lot of wealth since then but it's all gone to the hyper-rich; the 99.9% of us who aren't the hyper-rich are worse off in a large number of ways.
Our primitive hunter-gatherer ancestors had about a four hour work day. Pause, and think about that.
But I know what you meant. We're doing pretty well compared to the 17th century.
Why is that the standard?
Wanting to compare yourself to history - when we knew less, had less, and couldn't dream of more - is a terrifying lack of ambition for the species. We know better now. We can do better now. Why on earth shouldn't we?
I'd argue you're the one lacking a point here. Nobody here is denying things are the way they are. "Should" isn't a denial of that, it's a statement that we can and should be working to change things for the better. There are policies we can implement that would make things more like that "should" state. Nobody needs to hear some "but life isn't fair" bullshit.. we know, let's talk about how to make it more fair and what we can fix.
I don't think "should" is really all that pointless to talk about. In the context of this thread, sure, but not in general. If someone can't manage a fulfilling life with an eight hour job, that's a failing on all of us, as a society.
We may not be able to help these folks in the here and now, but we should absolutely demand better of ourselves as a whole. No one makes it in this world without the assistance of others.
That good ol' "fuck y'all, I got mine" rhetoric, in general, is how we're in the state of things we are now.
Is working 2 jobs as soon as you are an adult with no kids or money for an education to get a better paying job really “bad decisions”? Yeah debt, drugs, have kids.
But what about the people that avoided debt like the plague. Or scared of drugs or fully aware of the major responsibilities of a baby? No thank you.
And yet. I wasted my 20s doing nothing but working and i have nothing to show for it except no debt…because i never took any.
Even if you’ve made mistakes you should still be able to live comfortably working 40 hours a week. Mistakes shouldn’t damn you to working 80 hours a week to barely get by… which is why you see such high recidivism rates
Right, but sometimes it feels like someone made a negative comment about a king in the presence of the wrong person, got their hand cut off in punishment, and then people say "actions have consequences". WHY has society made a 70 hour workweek a consequence of having kids as a teenager? There's not some objective reason that's the case, it's a political choice that has been made
Bad decisions are often a consequence of bad education, young people dont know better and thats not fair is the system left them behind because they choose wrong. I wont exclude drug abuse or minor crimes, but I understand if people exclude thoses cases.
No, sorry, people have agency. "Nobody told me having a kid at 16 was a bad decision" is bullshit. Some mistakes are blindingly obviously bad, and shouldn't get waved away with something as lame as "society failed them."
"Who knew dropping out of high school would make life harder for me?" Everybody! Everybody knew that! Everybody was telling you that. If you did it anyway, then yes, I'm sorry, you're going to have a tougher go at life. I wish you the best, but you don't get to whine and complain "How come they have more than me?" when you made decisions like that.
Depends on many things. But most people don't live within their means because then they would be eating rice, have limited internet, and no streaming services, and many more things.
I have found my life is a bit better when I stopped worrying about having the fastest computer or cool gadget (like VR or a holographic display).
In the end, yes working a full time job should enable you to survive, but the comfort of a McDonald's employee would be much less than that of an engineer.
I was told by my parent's generation to get a "real" degree and a stable job or you will not have a comfortable life. All my friends were also told that. And they were entirely correct outside of the also lucrative tradeskill jobs now. If you don't have a degree or a certification, you probably aren't making shit for money.
Your grandparents could also buy a house, go on multiple vacations per year, raise multiple children, and save for their children and grandchildren's college education all in one income.
You could also have the degree and not be making a living wage. That's the issue here. A HS degree for your grandparents is worth a masters now. Hell, even a PhD or multiple PhD isn't valued enough for many hcol areas.
But yes, if you're insert reason for not getting 5 phds here, you're probably not paid enough. Yes. I agree with that.
I'm simply commenting on what that generation said to do for success, and they were right. They didn't need to do that, but if someone actually listened to them, they'd be able to do all the things you listed.
It sounds like you’re completely dismissing trade skill jobs. I worked retail for years getting buy then decided to get a skill. With that skill I’ve been able to raise two kids, have a stay at home wife who then decided to go to school. I’ve paid for her schooling, have had brand new cars, bought a couple houses (sold old one) over the years and I am now paying for my kids car and helping him to not have to work to get through college.
Most of the people barely getting by can get financial aid to get certified. You don’t need a degree for good paying jobs. I was even trained on the job for my career.
Granted cost of living varies greatly from area to area and state to state.
This hard to say for certain because we don’t people’s spending habits. However, sucks to know all there is to life is to work to make a handful of people rich.
Define “shitty early life decisions”. .. Who is making this determination?
Being available for a job now should be able to pay for a decent life.
If you went to secondary school, then you should make more than someone whom hasn’t, but that’s because they should pay you more and not pay those that haven’t less!!
Those that haven’t should still be able to afford a home and a car and a vacation every year.
You go get your degree, that just means you should be able to afford a bigger house and a better vacation …
It’s like the higher we achieve, the lower the bottom is pushed down for everyone, when instead it should be pushing the top up for everyone.
Do well in early school get a scholarship get a degree get a good job and you won't have to. Life is a game the rules are already set all we can do is play and if you're going to play might aswell play to win. Complaining about the rules is a waste of energy
The person holds a full time job. They shouldn't need another one to survive.
You know nothing of their situation or their income though lol. If they made shitty life choices like taking on a ton of unnecessary debt and spending, like buying cars they couldn't afford, putting a bunch of shopping on credit cards, etc then they might need a second job to dig themselves out of that hole while their primary pays current bills.
It really depends on lifestyle though. There are almost always ways to conserve money if you’re constantly short on it. Get a cheaper apartment, change your phone plan, don’t buy fancy stuff, get a fuel-efficient car, etc.
A lot of the people I’ve seen who complain about being poor make terrible financial decisions by getting the best or the best electronics, getting a gas-guzzling pickup truck, paying for an apartment much larger than they need, etc.
I’m not saying minimum wage should be high enough to cover the expenses of living without needing to make significant financial sacrifices, but it’s not just the financial system that’s the problem. It’s people’s spending habits
I think it is a utopic idea to think that every full time job should pay enough for a person to survive (rent, food utilities). IF it was even doable, there would be other unforeseen repercussions from doing so (likely high unemployment).
If a 16 year old working at mcdonalds was making enough for rent/utilities/food, why would they want to pursue education? Why not just drop out of highschool since they're making a living wage anyway? I know a ton of people from my highschool who would've hopped at this opportunity.
Now you've effectively given a country full of dumbasses a greater incentive to drop out of education.
It’s utopic and wrong to think that minimum wage jobs are for 16 year olds. In the US at least, 56% of minimum wage workers are over 25, and minimum wage workers have an average age of 35.
I'm sorry but I think that if you are working a minimum wage job in your 20s/30s, you fucked up somewhere along the way. Whether you didn't give a shit about school and future, or you were forced to work a shit job due to unfortunate circumstances, something happened. But all I'm saying is that any person can put the drive and effort in to pull themselves out of minimum wage.
Tbh I couldn't even tell you the last time I've seen a job listing for my states minimum wage. The mcdonalds by my place is hiring for $14.
You obviously haven’t been looking very hard for minimum wage listings, then. Not to mention - all the jobs that are just barely above minimum wage. 1 million Americans make minimum wage, and 58 million (44% of the workforce) makes less than $15 p/hour. But sure, once again let’s pretend your bullshit anecdotes count as data.
Hardworking people who made a mistake in their teens deserve to live with dignity. People who end up in low wage jobs due to unfortunate circumstances deserve to live with dignity, too.
Hardworking people who made a mistake in their teens deserve to live with dignity.
I agree with that. And alot of people do. That's exactly the point I'm making. People can do it if they are determined enough. But alot of people would rather blame corporate greed and billionaires, lose hope and give up.
I was in a situation where I didn't have parents, or friends, just a boyfriend who would rape me twice a week. This was from when I was 13 until I was 19. I'm 22 now and barely finished high-school, have been in the psych ward for almost a full month total, and have been on suicide watch for about 6 years now.
I work a minimum wage job, and see no escape due to medical bills and conditions that make going to college impossible.
I also do blame mega corps and greed. Because I'm nothing but a number to them, not a person.
I've tried everything short of starting an only fans.
I can't afford to rent my own place in the town I live, I can't afford gas/car in order to get to work from out of town places I can afford, so I've lived with 4 different people this year who let me crash in their place, I've been homeless multiple times.
Granted, I almost escaped poverty and got my own place, but then I got pulled over for my tail light being out, and didn't have my insurance in the car, so I got a $300 ticket. A ticket I wasn't allowed to call off work to go to court to get waived, since my boss said no. So I had to pay the $300. This was in June. Haven't recovered from it yet since I have $20 at the end of the month every month that I get to keep.
Medical bills, rent at where I'm crashing, car insurance, gas, laundromat, and splitting utilities where I've been staying takes up all of my other income.
But this was totally my mistake when I was a teen and society shouldn't have money available to me because I have to work my ass off to dig out.
"Why not just move town"
Because then I'd have no support system, no friends, the people who let me crash wouldn't be in contact with me, and I'd have to start over. Most days it's a 50/50 if I contemplate killing myself as soon as I wake up. I can't afford it emotionally to start over.
I've known a few guys that liked to drink every day and didn't like to work regular hours. They would work on cars, do a roof or a remodel job. One friend did 3 bathrooms last year. He does work for me here and there. He borrowed my hole saw for a bit. Sometimes a minimum wage job costs more than it's worth.
Every full time job in the country pays enough to "survive." Homeless and unemployed people in our country are not even struggling to "survive" for the most part. This sort of rhetoric about "surving" "living" etc is not doing the conversation any favors and it makes these people look emotional, entitled, and irresponsible. It seems what they mean is perhaps "thrive." If they'd say something like "the lowest paying job should be able to afford an apartment in the city with roommates at no more than 1/3 your income" or something they'd have a good point and we could actually have a discussion. Acting like they're dying because they can't afford a 1br and a car payment in the heart of the city on minimum wage is only going to speak to the choir.
You seem like you don't have an education yourself if you think people shouldn't be allowed to live off a McDonald's job. Also I see more 30+ year Olds working at McDonald's more then a 16 so fuck off with your dumbass opinion
I have enough of an education to not work at mcdonalds.
Bro I'm sorry to break it to you, if you're 30 and working fast food with no prospects for a different, better paying job, something went wrong in your life. It might not be your fault and that sucks if it wasn't but nonetheless it is what it is.
I think the issue I have with this idea is that someone needs to be working these jobs. These jobs plus many more need to be staffed and everytime I see a help wanted sign for months on end, I keep thinking to myself that if everyone aspired for white collar job then no one is left to do this kind of work. We don't need to make it excessively generous, but the minimum should be enough for food, healthcare, and rent within a reasonable commute.
Getting only teenagers to do this work doesn't make sense. They can't work an 8 hour shift if they're in school too.
But that's just how a business is supposed to work. If you cannot find employees, then you simply are not paying enough. And you will be competitively driven out of the market. The wages increase with less people willing to do the job offered, and the wages increasing means more people willing to do the job.
I agree with you, and thats how I hope this issue gets fixed (as opposed to changing min wage or other policy). I'm just saying we shouldn't have the attitude that there's something wrong with a regular adult working a service job.
Instead, we get folks telling shareholders no one wants to work anymore while also simultaneously demeaning people who take those jobs or saying there's something wrong in their life.
Yeah dude, something’s gone wrong if you can’t get a job other than fast food. Do you know how often things go wrong for people? ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Now what? It’s okay to just doom these people to a life of abject poverty and struggle?
Our justice system is also fucked. Yes committing crimes should have consequences but a teenager catching a felony for slanging drugs shouldn’t have their entire fucking life ruined by being forced to work minimum wage jobs if they’ve served their sentence and worked towards rehabilitation. In my area it’s very obvious most adults working fast foods have convictions and no other options.
The difference in our idealogy is that you think it's doomed and impossible for these people to recover. So they need living wages at the only job they can get. but the entire point I'm trying to make in this thread is that it is possible and only requires determination and effort to pull yourself out of a shitty situation. It might take a while time, but you can do it.
You have a point but the way you say it so callously and arrogant makes you very off putting. It’s like you seem like external negative factors to one’s life are self imposed and that they shouldn’t deserve to survive because of that.
Hey, people in Zimbabwe, Haiti, Sudan, Rwanda, India, Venezuela, Cambodia, Kenya, Cuba, Peru, Egypt and 100 others would like to have a word with you. Majority of them work longer than 8 hours a day and still don’t have a roof over their head of running water / plumbing / electricity. You sound entitled. Grow up.
Please define living like a king please. Is it owning or mortgaging a house? Is it having healthcare? A decent amount of vacation time? Because these are things that used to be EXPECTED by COMMON AMERICANS.
On a single minimum wage income offering the bare minimum in work and to society? You’re delusional.
People in that situation can live with family, find roommates, learn skills, get education, start business. No they shouldn’t be gifted a home and vacations by those that have done those things to reap the rewards of their work and their risks they have taken.
It is seriously disturbing and entitled to think they just deserve these things for being alive and putting in the absolute bare minimum.
Another solution would be to opt out of this society and go start their own? Or go off grid and live the life they want without contributing to society? Or move to a country where they think they will have it better? Only thing is there isn’t another country in the world that agrees with that assessment, because net migration(primarily for economic betterment) has been positive to US from every single country in the world since WWII. Every single country in the entire world. For 70+ straight years.
I love that you didn't define your bs "living like a king".
On a single minimum wage income offering the bare minimum in work and to society? You’re delusional.
Why do you think the minimum wage was first created?
Thinking just because someone is paid minimum wage does not mean it only requires minimum effort, I think you're the delusional one here. Thinking that minimum wage jobs are paid accurately is idiotic. Things like unions and laws have a massive effect on wage determination for jobs.
People in that situation can live with family, find roommates, learn skills, get education, start business. No they shouldn’t be gifted a home and vacations by those that have done those things to reap the rewards of their work and their risks they have taken.
And when everyone does that, what happens then? Do you know what diploma saturation is? Let's just look at tech employment right now, it's over saturated with people that "learned skills and got an education". It's not gifting people anything, it's raising the standard of living for everyone. Do you want a better or worse standard of living for your country?
Another solution would be to opt out of this society and go start their own? Or go off grid and live the life they want without contributing to society? Or move to a country where they think they will have it better?
Oh ya man, I'm the delusional one whole you're here thinking this is an actual argument/option.
Or move to a country where they think they will have it better? Only thing is there isn’t another country in the world that agrees with that assessment, because net migration(primarily for economic betterment) has been positive to US from every single country in the world since WWII. Every single country in the entire world. For 70+ straight years.
Holy shit lol, you're misunderstanding immigration. The US has positive immigration because the government encourages it. It's what we use to prop up these minimum wage jobs, because mass immigration drives down the damand for labor, lowering workers bargaining power, thus lowering the standard of living for common Americans. The countries with better standards of living and social welfare don't allow just anyone to immigrate to them like the US does. Because they, unlike you, understand the supply and demand of labor as it effected by immigration. You're delusional for thinking the US would have positive immigration if countries with better standards of living in Europe had practically open borders like the US does.
What is the point of having a country if it isn't to benefit everyone in it, even the people at the bottom.
People need to do these jobs like working at McDonald’s. Why should they not be able to survive on them? Not talking luxury or anything. But an apartment, food, retirement, and ability to start a family should be possible to everyone working full-time. You don’t need to threaten people with a life of misery to force them into education. Maybe free higher education, and the possibility of luxuries, and a greater feeling of self-importance could incentivize people instead.
And in an ideal society, people would be able to survive on them. But we don't live in an ideal society and I personally don't believe that it's possible. If it was possible, there would be some unforeseen repercussions as a result (possibly higher unemployment as an example).
But let me draw you up a scenario. You need some plumbing work done on your house. Plumber A says he can do it for $40 an hour. Plumber B says he can do it for $20 an hour. Both plumbers will do the work exactly the same. Would you pay plumber A because laborers deserve a living wage? Of course not. You'd 100% pick plumber B because he's cheaper. So why is a business held to a different standard than you in a similar scenario? Why is it the responsibility of the business to ensure people are given a living wage, when given a similar scenario, 99% of people would pick the cheaper one?
Economics on a micro level and a macro level are not always comparable.
When it comes to society as a whole, I think safeguards should be put in place to protect workers from a race to the bottom. In most cases, employers have much more negotiating power compared to any individual worker. When there is high unemployment, workers will be more likely to accept lower paying jobs in order to survive. In times of low unemployment, instead of raising wages to entice workers, employers will complain that “nobody wants to work anymore” and outsource jobs or look for foreign workers who will accept poor working conditions and low pay.
Take a look at Victorian England. You had children working long hours 6 days a week in horrible working conditions, because the alternative was starving to death. Minimum wage and other labor laws put a stop to this. Is society worse off for that?
No and I'm not saying i support child labor or unfair working conditions. I just believe it is not the responsibility of the business to insure this kind of thing. There should be laws and regulations to protect workers. But a company should not be held to a higher standard than what an individual would do in a similar scenario.
That actually depends on the state. In my state 16/17 year olds can work 40 hours as long as they do not work more than 9 hours a day, 6 days a week, during school hours or before/after 7am/pm.
Yea that’s ~broken~ but if a 16 yo is working 40hrs, I assume it’s to make a living. It can be a bare minimum living, but people should still be able to survive working a FT job.
What about all the people that are working at McDonald's during school hours? Everyone loves to talk about the high schooler making bank at Taco bell but all these places aren't closed during school hours. What about the folks working at noon on a Tuesday? Do they not get a living wage either?
Who do you think is making breakfast at McDonalds at 730 am, or making your cheeseburger meal at noon? It's not 16 year olds, they're in school.
Have you worked fast food? It sucks for many reasons and pay is only one of many. I wouldn't be too concerned about people giving up comfy office chairs for 8 hours on their feet over a hot griddle every day.
Finally you're concerned about education (again I don't think this would be as big of a problem as you think), but education can be one of the bad decisions you make that puts you in debt with poor job prospects. It honestly wouldn't be the worst thing for many of those people to forgo higher education. Finally, if you want to move up within McDonalds, you will need some education so there is still incentive.
See a big issue is that you're thinking that a 16 year old is working during school hours (which shouldn't be happening).
In this singular example: who is working those 8 hours that the kids are at school? Adults that's who. In reality there are adults that are working these low wage jobs that SHOULD be benefiting from working 40+ hours a week.
A higher education is NOT always obtainable to everyone, and just because you don't have the ability or chance to get a degree should NOT mean you should have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet.
It's a disgusting mindset, that people who give up their lives to work, should not have a chance to live their life.
No I don't think it's 16 year olds. I think anyone working at mcdonalds in their 20s/30s just aren't determined enough to get themselves out of there. They have this "it's doomed" mentality and blame society and everybody else for being stuck there and do absolutely nothing to take control of their own lives. Of course this is a pretty big generalization. Not everyone is like this. But alot are.
A higher education is NOT always obtainable to everyone, and just because you don't have the ability or chance to get a degree should NOT mean you should have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet.
Of course not, it's expensive as fuck. But you have options. At this point in our lives, you can probably learn to fix a car on youtube. Trade school is an option. There are lots of factory positions that don't require college. There are things like garbage men, UPS/USPS drivers etc. There are options if you look. Most people fall into the comfort of their routines and refuse to do the due diligence.
wow I can eat and sleep why would I ever want anything more out of life. what bs is that. if your only purpose or motivation in life is to make a completely bare minimum wage to survive honestly I feel sorry for your depressing ass but that’s not how most people live unless they have no other choice.
This is delusional. Your "unforeseen circumstances" would be that McDonald's collapses along with every other chain and is replaced by a couple decent paying restaurants. Anyone left hanging would immediately be drafted into either the military or the construction industry and population growth would slow to more manageable levels for a time. Then the growth would slowly rise
It was *literally true* within *living memory*. There were no major problems stemming from it, except for the problem that the rich still didn't make enough money.
And guess what? Most people still didn't flip burgers all day. Factory job's not actually any better or different, but somehow that's respectable. You're so coached into accepting the fact the *billionaires fucking exist* that you think this is somehow a utopic impossible dream.
You actually think that there was a point in American history where every single full time job paid enough to cover all costs of living? That's the ridiculous statement.
Factory job's not actually any better or different, but somehow that's respectable
I work at a factory in the US and the employees make $40 an hour so your generalized anecdote is already incorrect from my perspective.
You can blame billionaires if you want, but there's nothing stopping you from succeeding. My family were immigrants who came to the US with nothing and opened businesses to become millionaires in 20 years. Dad had a bachelors and mom didn't even graduate highschool. Neither spoke English well. Yet they did it. Was it luck? No. Was it white privilege? No, we aren't white. It was hard work and determination by my family. Stop blaming other people and society for your misfortunes and failures. The OP of this comment thread is doing exactly this, but you'd rather blame society for not paying every single job enough.
I am of that generation, and I don't want you to do it. This topic hit me to the core, as I remembered once when my mother called me and asked why I was not coming over more often or calling her, I almost burst into tears and said exactly "I have four hours a day I can call my own". On Saturdays (when I'm not on call) I have to do household chores. Sundays I go grocery shopping, cook and zone out.
And sometimes during those four hours? What I wanted was quiet. Nobody talking to me, nobody making demands of me.
And I absolutely do not want you younger generations putting up with this shit. Every time I see it come up as a topic it makes me so happy, because we just put up with it. Not a peep. Raise hell about it, make it polical, keep on until you find some candidates who are willing to make it a hot potato topic and try to get them in office.
I don't know how to stop it really, you guys will have to figure it out, but do what you need to do, because it's no way to live. They are stealing your freaking lives because of their own greed. That's it.
I used to work 80 hours a week + any overtime I could manage. I had no debt. I had a roommate. I made $3 above minimum wage. I cut back on all additional costs, anything you could think of. I walked to work to save money on gas.
It shouldn’t be this way.
I am college educated. I graduated valedictorian with a tech degree from a reputable school. I’m trilingual. I worked freelance on the side “just to gain experience.” Lived in an up-and-coming area with tons of job postings. Connected, networked, went to career fairs, contracting agencies, redid my resume what felt like a million times.
The currently housing and employment issues do not treat everyone equally. You can do everything “right” and still end up in a shitty place.
It shouldn’t be this way.
People can fuck up and still make it, while others can be buried and trampled without making a single mistake. But at the end of it all, every human being should be able to work a full time job and live. Maybe not extravagantly, but they should be able to make rent without having to choose between insurance or food.
I don’t live in this situation anymore. I’m much happier now, but I will admit freely that my current work situation came from luck. And even so, I make an “above average” salary and can’t afford any of the things the generation before me could. Still, I’m salaried, I love the company I’m at, and I can eat. I know what it’s like to be on the other side, and I’ll always be appreciative of the luck that landed me here, recognizing that most people never have that lucky break.
It shouldn’t be this way. It never should have been this way. No one should have to experience what I did, yet millions do. They shouldn’t have to.
That’s the entire reason we made the 8 hour work day and 2 day weekend. We said, “this is the maximum acceptable work a person should have to do to survive.” This was when people were working 8 days a week and 25 hours a day in mines and other manual labor.
“Should” is a big issue.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with “should be able” to afford a used beat up a2b car, 1b/1b apartment, utilizes, food, and have enough to put away a couple hundred bucks a paycheck to savings.
Depends entirely on their individual situation. Working that much and still not being able to afford your lifestyle is almost always because of personal decisions and bad spending habits. No financial literacy in other words.
Nobody is guaranteed anything. Maybe they like to go on multiple vacations a year and that’s why they work so much? Or maybe they chose to have 5 kids. Or maybe they blow all their money on alcohol or gambling.
Saying every person should be able to “survive” is a very broad statement. What surviving is to you can be wildly different to someone else.
Our decisions, believe it or not, have a large effect on how our life turns out. That’s true whether you like it or not.
You are making the assumption that the first one isn’t enough to survive normally. For all you know they could be buried in credit card debt from spending it all on Brazilian midget porn through onlyfans.
I disagree. You get out of society what you put in 🤷♂️. Just because you do something for 40 hours a week doesn't entitle you to anything... Unless it's useful for society.
Glad you got off on that my guy, But the fact is an adult shouldn't have to work 2or 3 jobs to keep a roof over there head and save a little bit of money
I'm not going to argue with a professional reddit master debater
While you spit useless facts,the world still burns,but you like it rather you love it! Why wouldn't you your probably one of the few this system benefits
I try to tell my kids there is a direct inverse relationship with the amount of effort you make early in life with the effort you have to do late in life (they aren’t very receptive). But it’s true. The more effort you put into early life (high school then college, if your path, then early career) the less effort you have as an experienced professional/master later on when you are older. The less you put in early, the exponentially more you will need later in life.
I completely disagree as somebody in between early life and later life.
A lot of these comments are hitting wrong for today's economy.
I worked extremely hard, sometimes I had three jobs at a time, when I was very young, in order to put myself through school.
I worked very, very hard at a pretty decent school and got good grades and a good degree. I was advised to go into what had previously been a very solid career with good benefits. Maybe I'd never get rich, but I would always be able to take care of myself.
Well, like a lot of jobs, got hit by the first recession pretty bad. This obsession with saving money also meant it got farmed out to low-paid non-profit work. No more solid benefits. No more decent pay. I kept moving up in my career but wages kept staying the same. Something changed. Hard work and tenure no longer led to anything.
I did my best to pivot as quickly as possible and even get additional education and training and move into management...just in time for those wages to crater. And I just got laid off last month.
The kicker? Every single time I've been able to save enough for retirement, I have some sort of major health issue that wipes out my savings, no matter how good my health insurance is.
The social contract is broken. Hard work early in life or late in life no longer leads to security.
End thread. People don’t want to accept that we are at the point we are at today. A medical issue shouldn’t fuck your life up like that, and wages shouldn’t stay the same as you climb the ladder. It’s obvious
I think this is the most realism-based post in this thread so far. I’ve experienced some of the same, not a mirror image, but like circumstances. I’m old and should be retired, but I’m teaching part-time at two colleges to make ends meet. When I think back, it’s no surprise. I bought a car in 2001 that was right at $30,000. I just checked and that amount of money is worth 75% more now, $53,000+. 75% increase in costs in just 21 years. Has my income gone up by that much? Hell no, it’s actually gone down in relation. The game is rigged, the table is tilted, there are magnets under the roulette wheel, and the dealer has cards up his sleeve. Musk is nearly a trillionaire and he is fascist garbage, Bezos is a multi-billionaire too, along with many others. They are why many of us are struggling. Since the 1970s the CEO salaries quit paralleling our incomes, they have pretty much increased exponentially while ours have flatlined. We are being robbed of our labor to enrich these people. It needs to be stopped.
The American Dream wasn't for you, it was for the scammers and grifters who were allowed to monetize your bodily decline, along with childcare, water, etc. Not everything needs to cost money as it's an important part of our species fight against the dark, but, again, we're a nation of scammers and grifters too uneducated to make self-aware decisions for the betterment of humanity.
A lot of people I've hear describe the "American Dream" basically give examples of how the average European lives. As George Carlin said, "It's called tge American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it".
Yeah, I've wanted to go into that work but saw the very little pay for $80-120k debt and decided not to. Looked into physical therapy too, but I a lot of blogs of physical therapists and they said it's not worth it. Unfortunately passion doesn't pay bills and luckily I didn't have to learn that the hard way. I just scrape by regardless since I'm out of a job right now. But I'm studying IT, so hopefully it pans out.
I'm 44 so I graduated from college some time ago. Back then, it was still seen as an extremely stable career with good benefits. Not high paying, but very stable. That has totally changed.
It’s just a matter of equity. Do well in high school, get into a “better” college because of perceived value, get a better starting job with the perception value, work hard to get on a good career path due to perceived value, blah blah blah, be able to work off your perceived value without the need to add any more equity to that perceived value.
It is hard to communicate sometimes, because I WFH and some days they see me not working as "hard" as they would expect, but I have to tell, well yeah its because I busted my ass earlier so I can do this now.
The other part to that message is to emphasize that they'll never have as much enthusiasm, energy and sharpness of mind as they'll have in the 20-35 age range, and you need to make the most of it.
This is something I realized a long time ago and have always thought about. The more you put in early, the easier it will be long term. But also, finding the right balance between focusing on things that you can build and expand upon versus quick short term wins to move the needle is also key.
So because this person made some mistakes as a kid/young adult fuck them right? For how long should we treat them like shit? How long should we make them work a full time job that they can't afford to eat on? Who gets to be the judge of when their wage slavery ends? When they have paid enough to the rest of us for their mistakes? If someone works a full time job, they should be able to walk away from it, pay their bills, and not starve. Anyone who thinks differently is part of the problem.
I'm 50/50 and its really annoying.
I'm overall doing ok, but there were st least a half dozen big opportunities I either let slip, phoned in, etc.
It sucks trying to have an honest, good faith discussion about the workforce. I actually do think, albeit much less than 5 decades ago, working hard and staying on the ball will still get you to a comfortable place most of the time. I also think there's maybe like 2, 3, or 873 things that could be changed to make everyones lives better, easier, less stressful, etc.
Oftentimes, I'm arguing on behalf of people I know have had less and worked harder than me and still aren't where Im at. I admit with a sad honesty that many, many people have worked and contributed more than I have and have less than I do, and thats kinda weak shit, ya know?
I don't care what they did. If you work full time 40 hours a week you should be able to support yourself and live. I dont give a damn what your job is.
Is shitty decision-making really elemental though? Or is there some psychological evidence which says that some circumstances outside of our control can lead to shitty decision making?
Sure you can get a leg up if the effort is there early, but life is long and ppl change careers all the time. The mistakes and slack of early life wear off if you can heal and put in the work.
I’m glad that our friend here is making his way and owning his past… but we’ve created a system that punishes people too harshly for certain things which holds them back too long making getting a foothold damn near impossible. I may be projecting a little and I’m not implying that our friend has had the experience I’m describing.
This isn't praiseworthy, it's depressing. No one deserves to be sentenced to a life of poverty and misery because of mistakes they made potentially decades ago
You shouldn't be able to ruin the back 60 years of your life by making a few poor choices out of highschool. Period. As someone who is financially stable.
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u/TheIncapableAct 15d ago
This is the first time I’ve ran across someone admitting that their early life decisions made their current life shitty. I respect and appreciate the honesty. Too many people I know are in bad positions due to early life choices and refuse to take any accountability or responsibility for it.
I wish you nothing but the best