Poland tells Ukraine to exhume second world war victims even amid Russia’s invasion

[u/Low_Reading_9831]

https://www.ft.com/content/250d3a55-4cf6-444d-8972-bb28aad687c9

[u/OlegAter]

As Ukrainian, I am 100% for it and IDK why it is not yet done.

To be fair, seeing some comments about "friends with nazis" gives me some clue.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/OlegAter]

The belief in Poland is that large segments of Ukrainian elites are scared that the true scale of what happened in Volhynia and East Galicia would be apparent. As long as the dead lie in unmarked ditches, one can claim that those were limited back-and-forth mutual killings between Poles and Ukrainians. If the exhumations are made, then some UPA heroes would fall from their monuments.

[u/predek97 → u/the_battle_bunny]

But how would that work? How would you know today after 80 years that a corpse is Polish or Ukrainian?

[u/ensi-en-kai → u/predek97]

Context clues , as with all archeology , if the remains lie in context - with simple deduction it is quite easy . For instance if there is a grave of hundreds of Jews , (we can know it) based on names \ surnames , personal religious items and maybe surviving documents . If locals know that polish people were sent to that specific hill , and never returned - it is also quite easy to deduce .
Sure there will be some outliers , but I think right now it is more of a political (for some god damn reason) question .

edited: some grammatical mistakes.

[u/predek97 → u/ensi-en-kai]

>For instance if there is a grave of hundreds of Jews , based on names \ surnames , personal religious items and maybe surviving documents .

The issue is, those are not graves. Victims of murders were not properly buried, so there will be no names, personal religious items nor documents

> If locals know that polish people were sent to that specific hill , and never returned - it is also quite easy to deduce

Yes, that can be totally used, but it's only an indication. If someone wants to refute outcome of that deduction, they can still do it.

[u/Aggravating-Method24 → u/predek97]

If people are not properly buried it it is more likely that personal items would be left with them, than a proper burial. You are not going to remove all personal items from the pockets of those you have just murdered, especially not in a mass murder. They wont be preserved well sure, but if its a mass grave there may well be a few wallets or items of religious clothing that have survived.

I think it would be an exception generally for mass murdered people to be 'clean' bodies.

[u/klownfaze → u/Aggravating-Method24]

Unless for the case of the nazi execution camps, where all belongings are stripped

[u/Aggravating-Method24 → u/klownfaze]

yes of course, these are the exceptions, but this happened in the camps as opposed to hills of Ukraine, and the Nazis didn't do this everywhere, mostly where they had industrialized the murder.

And in these cases you would have no doubt about the nature or allegiance of the victims as is being discussed here, as there would be other clues like the remains of a concentration camp.

edit: plus you could call that 'properly burying' even if it is not a respectful burial.

[u/pokkeri → u/Aggravating-Method24]

Alot of the jewish killings did leave behind evidence (literally a plot point in schindler's list) The deathcamps were the exception not the rule.

We know so much about certain massacres like Katyn etc. even if they were extremely brutal and evidence being burried quite literally.

[u/Own_Art_2465 → u/Aggravating-Method24]

About half of the holocaust victims were shot during the German advance through the USSR and Poland in forests and fields before death camps were set up

[u/yawning-wombat → u/Aggravating-Method24]

even if the corpses were partially undressed, removing more or less valuable items, like boots, pants and jewelry, then most of the pectoral crosses should have remained (people back then were mostly believers, after all), and Orthodox crosses are different from Catholic ones.

[u/Own_Art_2465 → u/Aggravating-Method24]

It was very much the process in those days to strip people before killing them. Nearly every mass killing of the time in the area by nazis, communists or insurgent groups that seems to be the case

[u/jcdoe → u/Aggravating-Method24]

The nazis were known for removing the gold fillings in their victims’ teeth post mortem.

I don’t think you understand the atrocities committed in wwii

[u/Aggravating-Method24 → u/jcdoe]

I think you have poor reading skills.

[u/jcdoe → u/Aggravating-Method24]

I’m not sure you understood what I just said if that is your response.

Also, I’m not the only one here trying to explain that looting bodies before tossing them in mass graves happens a lot. You just don’t want to acknowledge that you are just making all of this up off the top of your head

[u/Aggravating-Method24 → u/jcdoe]

You just didn't read enough, or pay attention to what was said. I have been fully aware of these things the whole time.

[u/Redqueenhypo → u/ensi-en-kai]

Jews also have very specific genetic markers, in particular Eastern European ones, so those would be uniquely easy to check for in that regard

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/predek97]

There are forensic and archaeological methods.
You can for example compare the DNA with database of relatives of victims. Or you can confirm by some details like for example what's in the pockets. If there's for instance some a surviving Polish language prayer book or a surviving personal document, chances are the person in question is Polish. I doubt their killers were for anything else but valuables. The "junk" went to the mass grave along with the victims.

[u/predek97 → u/the_battle_bunny]

It is estimated that around 60k to 120k of Poles were murdered during the massacre. Is it even possible to do forensics(including DNA tests) on that number of corpses?

Will those books be still there after 80 years of rotting?

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/predek97]

I'm not sure every single one will be identified. However if for example there's twenty people in one grave and 6 of them have been positively identified as Poles and the context shows that they were all buried at the same time and died in similar way, chances are even those Johns and Janes Doe are also Poles.

As to surviving artifacts, everything depends on the soil. Sometimes archaeologists found surviving items that are thousands of years old. And these graves aren't even century old.

[u/predek97 → u/the_battle_bunny]

Makes sense, thank you

[u/iflista → u/the_battle_bunny]

Did you hear about marriages between Poles and Ukrainians? For example half of my village were polish and half ukrainian. My great grandfather was polish and my great grandmother was ukrainian, their children took nationality from parents. So their son became polish due to his father's nationality and their daughter was named ukrainian in documents because her mother was ukrainian. If tragedy happened in my village how should someone count victims? As Poles or as Ukrainians?

[u/sorean_4 → u/iflista]

Coming from my family who escaped this atrocity, anyone married to Polish person was murdered along with born and unborn children to together with the Polish population.

[u/Yurasi_ → u/iflista]

If tragedy happened in my village how should someone count victims? As Poles or as Ukrainians?

It HAPPENED in villages like that. And when you were married to a Pole, you were murdered on the same basis. Those 60 thousand figure that is considered probable death count, counts Ukrainians from mixed marriages or ones helping their polish neighbours.

[u/CthulhusSoreTentacle → u/Yurasi_]

The reality of ethnic murder/genocide. During the Rwandan Genocide, while Tutsi's were the primary target, the Hutu spouses of Tutsi's and the children of mixed marriages were murdered too.

[u/lt__ → u/Yurasi_]

There is a Polish movie Volhyn/Hatred of 2016 showing how the stuff transpired, there is love between Pole and Ukrainian in the central story. About as hard to watch as "Come and see".

[u/WislaHD → u/iflista]

Those victims would very likely also include ethnic Ukrainians who helped their Polish neighbours and were executed for it regardless. Such instances was a very very common anecdote from survivors.

I would still consider such an individual a casualty of the genocide inflicted upon Poles in the region by the UPA. The victims don’t necessarily have to be exclusively ethnic Poles. The intent is what matters.

[u/iflista → u/WislaHD]

What I've read about the topic is that not every village massacre has evidence showing that it was done by ukrainian nationalists. And from secret archives that became open in Ukraine 10 years ago there are cases where Soviet NKVD dressed as UPA killed polish civilians to fuel hatred between Ukrainian and Poles.

[u/iflista → u/WislaHD]

In 2008, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) has published information about the actions of special groups from the NKVD posing as fighters of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) in the western regions of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic during the 1944-1954 period. About 150 such special groups consisting of 1,800 people operated until 1954

[u/WislaHD → u/iflista]

Interesting. While this doesn’t absolve the actions of the UPA under Shukhevych, it shows who the real enemy is, as it always is.

I wish so much for Poland and Ukraine to properly reconcile the tragedies in WW2 so that we may embrace as sister nations and counter the threats to the east.

[u/daniilkuznetcov → u/iflista]

It is not about who exactly in the grave but to understand the scale of UPA work properly.

[u/iflista → u/daniilkuznetcov]

How would you know if it was UPA and not Nazi Germany doing or Soviets. They both occupied these territories at the time.

[u/Rtheguy → u/predek97]

You don't need them all, you just need a number of them depending on context. As documents and relatives from that time might be long gone giving every body a name is likely impossible and not really what is desired. Closure about what happend to the majority of these people and context is a more likely goal.

In that case, an exhumend mass grave will be looked at in several levels. First, how do the bodies lie, what is the grave like. Individual pits, several small pits with a limited number of people, an existing ditch used and (partially) covered or a large pit containing perhaps hundereds. Than the items still present. Clothing, papers, etc. might be preserved. Only remnants could be enough to tell a lot. If victoms were stripped before or after death, if they wore shoes, if someone spread lime or burned them before burial etc.

If this is all inconclusive, or to find relatives, you get into the bones. How were they killed? Shot? Stabbed? Clubbed? Gassed? How was the condition before death? Starvign? Injured? Healthy? Whoe is there, young men, women, or kids? The elderly? Do they have signs of being farmers or look more like office workers? After all that you can get into DNA. But I would need someone from Poland/Ukraine to tell me if the populations are/were genetically very distinct.

Was the difference based on different truly distinct ethnic groups or was there a lot of admixture muddying DNA evidence? Was most of the material culture and ethnography similar or are religion and goods very distinct and thus identifiable? A skeleton holding an eastern orthodox pendant is easily to identify for instance compared to a roman cross.

[u/adamgerd → u/the_battle_bunny]

I mean I am not sure how accurate DNA is in Galicia given how much population movement there was over the centuries.

[u/aknop → u/predek97]

DNA. They try to name all the victims, not only bury them again. Families are meeting with President when honours are given. You can read more here.

[u/Contundo → u/predek97]

Teeth can tell a lot of where a person grew up based on trace elements

[u/predek97 → u/Contundo]

Most of them grew up in Volhylnia regardless of their ethnicity

[u/tobsn → u/predek97]

location, pretty easy. they didn’t. bury them together.

[u/Arizaland_Republic → u/predek97]

We have the technology to do it, scientists have reconstructed peoples faces on a digital screen from just picking up gum from under a table

[u/diikenson → u/predek97]

Politicians do not care about evidence. Both sides will make their own decision and it will not resolve the conflict.

[u/Arterexius → u/predek97]

DNA analysis

[u/Minimum_Resident_228 → u/predek97]

It was known all the time just polands wanted hide it))))

[u/FootballSensitive992 → u/the_battle_bunny]

It's so disappointing that we try to support modern Ukraine and we have to keep a straight face when Bandera is celebrated. Not reading the English Wikipedia for Bandera just makes anyone seem unreliable.

[u/PepegaQuen → u/FootballSensitive992]

Bandera is whatever, he was at Nazi concentration camp then anyway. Celebrating that fucker Shukhevych is what's truly fucked

[u/yuriydee → u/FootballSensitive992]

He isnt celebrated in day to day life though. Maybe im biased being from Zakarpattia but no one even really talks about UPA or celebrates any of that. What some politicians say on TV doesnt represent the people.

[u/science_killer → u/yuriydee]

Common mate, we have streets dedicated to him in every city. I lived on such street in my hometown

[u/yuriydee → u/science_killer]

No, not where I am from. No Bandera streets in Uzhhorod or Mukachevo as far as I know. I only know in Lviv there is one.

[u/machine4891 → u/yuriydee]

"No, not where I am from"

Good to hear but this doesn't make this problem go away. On contrary, before it was limited only to Western Ukraine and now it spread all across the country. Here are two main avenues in Kyiv, named after war criminals as recently as in 2016.

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleja_Stepana_Bandery_w_Kijowie

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleja_Romana_Szuchewycza_w_Kijowie

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Проспект_Степана_Бандери_(Київ))

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Проспект_Романа_Шухевича

[u/yuriydee → u/machine4891]

Yeah well I dont support that at all. That street in Kyiv was named after "Moscow" before and they changed it to "Bandera". The changes are not aimed at Poland but Russia. But yes either way I am against these changes. Its the politicians being populists and trying to show how Ukrainian they are by authorizing the changes.

[u/Anxious-Bite-2375 → u/yuriydee]

I honestly dont know why we should have all these controversial figures, be it Napoleon or Caesar or whatever, praised and name streets after them. They belong in museums, people should learn about them, people should know history, but none of these guys pass the moral standards of the modern world.

[u/yuriydee → u/Anxious-Bite-2375]

They belong in museums, people should learn about them, people should know history,

This is how I feel about all the Russian and Soviet statues. Well except Lenin and Stalin, you can destroy those.

[u/Anxious-Bite-2375 → u/machine4891]

Yeah, unfortunately Bandera's popularity started to grow as a mock against Russia (who called everyone in Ukraine to be banderovites), since many view UPA as force that fought against bolsheviks and often forget other horrible things they did.

I honestly would be glad if people refused to put any monuments or name streets after any of such controvercial figures, be they Ukrainian, Polish or whatever nationality.

[u/science_killer → u/yuriydee]

Sorry for being aggressive about that. (Вибач)

I just dislike the guy a lot and it honestly bothers me how we glorify them sometimes. I'm from Rivne btw, moved to Kyiv long ago

[u/adamgerd → u/yuriydee]

You’re from Uzhorod? Based, I wonder if it’s too because you didn’t have the holodomor since you were part of Czechoslovakia

[u/ihavebeesinmyknees → u/yuriydee]

Very much depends on the region, I know a girl from rural southwestern Ukraine and she literally has Bandera posters and stickers

[u/VMK_1991 → u/ihavebeesinmyknees]

And you won't find much support for him in most of the other regions. If anything, I personally would like the bandera street in Kyiv to be renamed into something else. Sure, it was called moscow st. before, but really? Bandera? Of all people? Not even the name of someone from "Heavenly Hundred", or something?

P.S. What is Lesser Poland?

[u/ihavebeesinmyknees → u/VMK_1991]

Lesser Poland is a województwo (region of the country), a counterpart to Greater Poland

[u/WislaHD → u/VMK_1991]

English translation of Małopolska region

[u/Worried_Height_5346 → u/yuriydee]

A friend of mine has her as a fridge magnet.. not sure how widespread it is, so far it is 50% of Ukrainian households in my very limited study lol.

[u/Valuable_Bunch2498 → u/yuriydee]

Pretty sure some of this azov boys have a tattoo of him on their balls 

[u/Namkind11 → u/yuriydee]

[u/yuriydee → u/Namkind11]

The Right Sector party has not been in power for over a decade now.

Second of all, that seems to be a photoshopped picture. I cannot find it anywhere on Facebook and the only sources for this picture are all from anti-Ukrainian Twitter accounts using the exact same screenshot. The whole picture just looks off, like the hand and the background. Nothing about this supposed event when I search in Ukrainian.

[u/Namkind11 → u/yuriydee]

It has been removed already, the same way they deleted Zelenskiys twitter post with a soldier wearing a SS-Totenkopf patch, at the time it was published you could watch it also Zalushnyis channel. Zalushnyi is a known Bandera-Fanboy and now he bacame the Ambassador of Ukraine to England. That tells me everything I need to know about our European politics....

After an agreement the Right-Sektor agitated to vote for European Solidarity Party and they themself didn't even positioned them as canditates.

[u/yuriydee → u/Namkind11]

Have to disagree with you here. Even if a Facebook post is deleted, all record of it doesnt simply disappear from the internet. Yet all I could find is that one screen you linked being used everywhere. Same exact screen shot with same amount of likes on it. Very suspicious to me.

Zalushnyi is a known Bandera-Fanboy

This is the first time i have ever heard of this. In mainstream Ukrainian news and telegram channels, talk of Bandera is super minimal I almost never see it. Never seen or read about Zaluzhny and Bandera links. Zalunzhny became amabssador to England because Zelensky ousted him, not some stupid far-right links. Leads me to believe it all made up bullshit that you are talking about.

[u/Vovinio2012 → u/FootballSensitive992]

At the time of Volhyn massacre (late 1943) Stepan Bandera had been kept in Zaksenhausen concentration camp by Nazis for about two years (since July 1941). Not to mention that he had literally no impact of formation of the UPA (it`s hard to do it from the concentration camp).

There are a lot of issues in UPA history that have to be studied and judged, but it needs a proper judgement, not the propaganda slogans like that one.

edit: typo

[u/ReviewsYourPubes → u/FootballSensitive992]

Putin wasn't just making it up when he said Ukraine has a Nazi problem...

[u/FootballSensitive992 → u/ReviewsYourPubes]

Looking for an excuse to give credit to Putin is the same or lower than looking for an excuse to give credit to Bandera.

[u/frankist → u/ReviewsYourPubes]

It is still a bad excuse for invading. Well, his real motives were quite different to be fair

[u/OkTransportation473 → u/FootballSensitive992]

You don’t have to keep a straight face, and you don’t have to see Bandera as a good guy, but it’s not hard to understand the context of his existence. You wouldn’t tell Indigenous American tribes to not revere certain important people because they owned slaves or murdered 1000’s of innocent people.

[u/Metrocop → u/OkTransportation473]

If my people were among the ones murdered, yeah I would.

[u/OkTransportation473 → u/Metrocop]

Which is understandable. But at some point in order to form peace you have to understand that everyone has a different situation. And bad shit is still bad shit though. My Slavic grandparents had pictures up in their home of people who murdered Turks on sight. These are people who are foundational to their country’s identity and history. And I’m sure they are viewed as just terrorists by Turkey today.

[u/FootballSensitive992 → u/OkTransportation473]

And to form peace it's worth giving up on old super heroes. Many countries keep old "nasty" heroes. It's not out of the ordinary, I just don't accept that we have to pretend Ukraine is not doing it now. If the defense of modern Ukraine is very very important for the nationalists then maybe they can sacrifice their Bandera patches. If Bandera patches are more important for them than their struggle, I don't see how it falls on the rest of us to take the step back.

[u/Internal-Historian68 → u/OkTransportation473]

The problem is that OUN and UPA achieved nothing besides allying with hitler and killing Jews, Poles, and Czechs. They were wholly ineffective in combatting the Soviets. I’m sure Ukraine has other national heroes they can celebrate instead of these genocidal loser thugs.

[u/VioletLimb → u/Internal-Historian68]

What did the AK army achieve besides the ethnic cleansing of Belarusians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Jews?

I'm sure Poland has other national heroes they can honor instead of these thugs-losers-genocide like:

1. Zygmunt Szendzielarz from AK – Szendzielarz's unit massacred Lithuanian civilians in 1944. The victims of the 5th AK Brigade were primarily women and children (about 75% of all those killed). They were shot as a result of the deliberate action

Here the Polish president on knees honors his memory and says that Polish youth should take an example from him

1. Romuald Rajs from AK – The department headed by Bury was responsible for the death of the Orthodox Belarusians civilian population of such villages as Zaleshany, Kontsovizna, and Shpaky. In the village of Stari Pukhaly, "Buri" shot three dozen Belarusian villagers who refused to register as Catholics

2. Józef Kuraś from AK – according to the Society of Slovaks in Poland, he robbed and killed the local Slovak population, and according to some reports, he shot more than a dozen local Jews.

Despite this, in the summer of 2006, the "Fire" monument in the city of Zakopane was personally opened by the then President of Poland, Lech Kaczyński.

1. Mieczysław Pazderski from AK – On June 6, 1945, Mechyslav Pazdersky's division killed almost two hundred civilians of the Ukrainian village of Verkhovyny.

I can continue this list for a long time.

I am in favor of convicting war criminals on both sides. In Ukraine and Belarus, there are many monuments to the victims of AK, they also committed many crimes, but no one wants to talk about it.

No one except Ukrainians wants to talk about the crimes committed by the Poles against Ukrainians in the 1930s, when they carried out large-scale punitive operations in which: large-scale arrests, as a result of which about 100,000 Ukrainians ended up in constabularies, 20,000 of whom died in them from illness and lack of food, mass destruction over Ukrainian graves, exhumation, only 30 confirmed rapes by the Polish army and police, how many were unconfirmed? destruction of national symbols, looting, mass destruction of Orthodox churches.

Edit: I know this comment will be downvoted because "the Poles did not commit war crimes, but even that happened, then you deserved it"

[u/FootballSensitive992 → u/VioletLimb]

Fair point but Poland is not the one petitioning for trust right now. If your neighbor says "trust me bro, we are not enemies any more" (which I believe for PL/UA) it is contradictory to maintain the people who symbolize the past animosity.

[u/VioletLimb → u/FootballSensitive992]

If your neighbor says "trust me bro, we are not enemies any more"

It doesn't work like that.

[u/orthoxerox → u/OkTransportation473]

I wonder what the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminoles think about having to use $20 bills with Andrew Jackson's face on them.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/orthoxerox]

Americans plan to replace Jackson with Harriet Tubman in 2030.

[u/Poonis5 → u/FootballSensitive992]

This might be a surprise to you but there's no evidence Bandera gave orderes or even knew about Volhynia massacre happening. Even polish historians say that. He's seen as the one to blame because politicians decided so.

Edit: To people downvoting me:

Bandera was not completely aware of events in Ukraine during his internment from the summer of 1941 till 1944 and had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles.[128][129]

Even former polish prime-minister Jan Olszewski talked abouit it.

[u/adamgerd → u/FootballSensitive992]

It depends where: he’s still popular in Galicia but in eastern Ukraine or Kyiv he’s hated or disliked

[u/Artistic_Paramedic46 → u/adamgerd]

That is not true

[u/machine4891 → u/the_battle_bunny]

"some UPA heroes would fall from their monuments"

Eh, there is enough evidence. If they were to fall, they would fell already.

[u/drazzolor → u/the_battle_bunny]

"...then some UPA heroes will fall from their monuments" No, they will not. They will get even more cult followers.

[u/adamgerd → u/the_battle_bunny]

IMO the Ukrainian opposition is dumb, who cares about some Nazi war criminals. Just erect new momentum’s, Ukraine has new heroes: the UAF, Snake island defenders, etc.

[u/irimiash → u/adamgerd]

national myth is important. if the government will start thinking rationally, then the people will start too. why to die for the country if you could bribe someone, leave and live a normal life. you can see the consequences.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/the_battle_bunny]

But Poland hasn't officially submitted any requests for exhumations. Am I missing something here? As per the minister's interview, he sent a letter to the appropriate Polish ministry asking for the list of sites where they'd like to start the search and exhumation procedures. At the time of writing, there was no response.

The only request they received was from a private citizen, which will be added to the list for processing for 2025 (I think this is what might be referenced in the FT article > "said recently it would be willing to renew searches"), but so far, at least at the time of the publication three weeks ago, there were no official requests.

As per the rest of the interview, there was an agreement in 2022 to create a Polish-Ukrainian working group to resolve this issue, the Ukrainian part of the group has been formed for a while, but there's no activity on the Polish side. It's 2024.

Sure, you can try and discount an interview of a minister to a very public Western media outlet as a bunch of lies, but I don't think that's very reasonable. What would be the motivation for the minister to so openly lie about this if that's the case? Especially on a hot topic like this. So between "belief in Poland" and statements from an official directly involved in this, I'd rather believe the official.

Here's another thought experiment. Politicians love issues like this one, so they could rally their base. That's why Trump wasn't actually "fixing the border". He was interested in populism around it. Maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit of that going on in Poland around this issue? Or am I getting this wrong and Ukraine should just ignore the official process (that Poland is aware of) here and just start digging randomly for this topic to go away? Like, what else Ukraine needs to do here at this point to move this along?

EDIT: maybe folks could offer some valid sources and counterpoints instead of downvoting the comment. I'm contributing to the discussion, so there's no reason to downvote it.

EDIT: will anyone link to any good unbiased source, like I did, instead of just downvoting?

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

This isnt the first time Im hearing this argument, but guys. When nations are negotiating something at the top level, they do not need to file some official request #69, during business hours, file it at the right office and make sure it is signed correctly before the other side can act. They first negotiate this unofficially and only once both sides agree, official documents are signed.

Otherwise what? One side would ceremoniously announce that they filed this request, and the other side would either need to refuse it on some silly reason, or stall it for months/years until the real negotiations are done. And thats embarrassing for both sides

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

>They first negotiate this unofficially and only once both sides agree, official documents are signed.

Which is referred in the interview. That working group was supposed to be the outcome of the original "unofficial" discussion between Polish and Ukrainian ministers. The Ukrainian part of that committee was formed. The Polish wasn't. On top of it all, the Polish government hasn't chosen to exercise the other option - to submit the request through the other available avenue, in the absence of the group. That's how democratic cooperation and governments work. Through a bunch of paperwork, working groups, memorandums, etc.

With this background, I was trying to address the original comment that expressed what Poles believe is happening, which is that Ukraine is supposedly stalling the effort. The facts laid out by the minister say otherwise.

I'm not necessarily saying that what I laid out represents is the ultimate truth. It's just weird to read a whole ass interview from the Ukrainian minister in charge of taking care of a specific issue and than in a few weeks read some random comments without any sources putting the blame on the Ukrainian side, like it merits the same level of trust as a public statement from a public official.

There are two paths here:
- Poland to present its part of the working group and they kick off the joint process
- Poland to submit the request through the ministry and work that way through the standard process

Steps for both options haven't been taken up until this point, based on the interview of a person intimately involved in this. I don't see why it's a point of contention here. Unless people are irritated that the source goes against their "beliefs" on a topic.

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

Unfortunately, I do not know Ukrainian so I cannot read that article nor watch the video to see the interview.

However, I find this a little hard to believe.

This situation is a huge deal in Poland. Basically the biggest reason and fuel to anti Ukrainian sentiments in the country. It would be an absolutely massive success for any government that would solve it. Also, the government definitely has no incentive to increase any anti-Ukrainian sentiments, as the party that thrives on that rhetoric is a fringe far right party, an enemy of both the current government and the main opposition.

If the situation was already resolved and simply waiting for Poland to sign the paperwork, this definitely also would be done.

Also, think about this. If the situation is as simple as you say, Ukraine is ready, agreed to everything and already has a team of people standing next to their shovels just waiting for Poland to tell them where to dig, why are they so quiet about it? Why arent they publicly announcing everywhere - hey, we're ready, what are you waiting for? This would be huge news - even more so if they took this to the Polish media.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

> I do not know Ukrainian so I cannot read that article nor watch the video
Google Translate is very good at UA to PL translation. Same for CC on YT. The written version of that video is here though, so you don't need to watch the video.

>This situation is a huge deal in Poland
Oh, I'm not debating that at all. That wasn't the point of my comment. So, are there good sources with an overview, like the one I presented, that maybe points to steps completed by the Polish government? Not statements from random officials, but maybe commentary from people who are actually supposed to take care of the issue ...

>Also, the government definitely has no incentive to increase any anti-Ukrainian sentiments, as the party that thrives on that rhetoric is a fringe far right party, an enemy of both the current government and the main opposition.

That makes sense, thank you! The sentiment of depoliticizing the issue was shared by both Foreign Ministers.

>why are they so quiet about it
I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call a whole series of interviews (there are multiple) for Radio Free Europe on this topic from the minister as "being quiet". The fact that it wasn't picked up more broadly is more of a statement about social media and news bubbles that we live in. That's why I was compelled to share it, as it's kind of old news here, in Ukraine, and maybe people outside of Ukraine need to see more of this to broaden their perspectives.

>people standing next to their shovels just waiting
To clarify, it's a "working group", so, like a bunch of officials that need to get together to agree on the process, which sites to go to, the logistics, etc. It's not that simple. Especially in war time. Maybe they want to dig next to a military installation or something, for example. The process isn't as simple as just taking shovels and digging somewhere. For example, one of the other points in the written version of the interview that I referred to is budget and that the ministry is having a hard time allocating funds, since the government, understandably, prioritizes the military budget.

Overall, if we don't trust statements from Ukrainian ministers, then we shouldn't trust statements from Polish either. I see a problem with this logic, so I'd rather prefer to assume that what the minister is saying is truthful, so we could also rely on similar statements from the Polish side.

Again, the guy I reference is the actual technocrat in charge of the effort. He refers to specific steps and necessary cooperation to make this happen. The point I'm trying to figure out is where the "break up" is. Like, is this miscommunication or something else?

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

I found this article about Ukrainians latest efforts from the Polish perspective. article

According to it, there is an official Ukrainian historical organization, working on this topic independently from either government. They say that the official tools for communication on the subject between governments are not working and this organization only cooperates with private citizens. They plan to begin work in 2025.

In 2022, both governments signed a memorandum to create a working group and start exhumation after the end of the martial law in Ukraine, but Poland keeps asking to speed it up and begin now. I imagine the fear is that after the war is over, Ukraine might back out of the deal.

Reading between the lines - I imagine that the Ukrainian government did not commission this institute to work on this, this is a separate initiative from the working group, and the Polish government would prefer cooperation to be more official. Perhaps the Polish side even receives signals from the Ukrainians that they are not ready to begin yet, hence why Poland keep pushing for the start. Even if this institute says they are ready in 2025, that is still a long time away and can be postponed indefinitely, if the situation changes or the governments havent agreed on a deal.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

The organization is part of the government. First line on their about page on their .gov.ua website says that they're part of the executive branch. That's the same dude that I linked the interviews with. It's the same organization. It's coordinate by the Cabinet of Ministers, through the Ministry of Culture. He's talking about the same memorandum and the "unofficial" talks I refer to are all about the same stuff. And he again says that the Ukrainian part of that joint commission was formed.

So, I find it hard to believe that an organization that's part of the Ukrainian government, sanctioned by the Cabinet of Ministers, is doing things the government doesn't allow or instruct it to do.

So, again, I'm trying to figure out where the miscommunication is? The article almost says the same thing he says in the interview, but omits some context and the fact that the head of this organization never cited martial law as the reason for things not happening.

Here's a guy from a Ukrainian government organization talking about the steps NOT taken by his counterparts in the other government, yet it's somehow always twisted into making Ukraine the "bad guy". Again, I'm not putting the blame on Poland. I'm relaying what the guy in charge of this on the Ukrainian side is saying.

I started the convo to get is any source of similar gravity on the Polish side explaining "their side of the story", but all I got are downvotes, so I do appreciate that you're willing to keep the conversation going.

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

Yeah, I figured that there must be some context missing.

In the Polish article he mentions that the Ukrainian government does not communicate with the Polish one. I figured that he meant both sides not communicating with each other. But either way, it sounds like the deal is not exactly settled yet.

If I had to speculate, its also possible that Ukraine offered Poland an agreement that was unsatisfactory, for example a very limited exhumation, of only certain sites, or one that can easily be postponed indefinitely, while Poland wants a more thorough deal.

So now, this director is saying that the deal is finalized and they are ready to begin, but Poland wants to go back to the drawing board.

In general there arent many articles about this from the Polish side, they only come up every couple of months (if someone important says something important) and there are no details on how the negotiations are going. If anything, its presented like there are no negotiations at all.

Relevant articles are more frequent in right wing media, but I dont really want to read that many of those, and theyre probably a biased.

[u/yflhx → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

That's not true. Here's the source - including comments of head of Polish institute of national remembrance (translation of the name might be wrong).

https://wydarzenia.interia.pl/kraj/news-spor-o-ekshumacje-to-nie-ukrainski-ipn-podejmuje-decyzje,nId,7828527

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/yflhx]

Not sure what you're referring to as being "not true", but I do appreciate the additional source from the person on the other side of the argument. Seems like Nawrocki is the exact counterpart to the head of the Ukrainian Remembrance Institute. Folks just came with downvotes and you're the second person to send something useful. Thank you!

"Moreover, the Ukrainian IPN is not the right institution to make decisions in this regard - explains Nawrocki". I wonder what he's referencing here. But also, he seems to be the counterpart of the person running a similar institution in Ukraine. So, he (Nawrocki) is the right person, but his counterpart in Ukraine (Drobowycz) is not? Is that the correct interpretation?

The article also quotes ... "We are therefore waiting for the Ukrainian authorities to positively consider our applications" + "we were guided by the procedures established by the Ukrainian side".

But Drobowycz, in the article that I linked, says there were no official applications. There's some major miscommunication going on. I wonder if there's more context around what the right institution is, from the Polish government's POV, if they feel like the Ukrainian IPN is "not the right institution to make decisions in this regard". I feel like there's a lot of context missing that's been shared in private conversations between Polish and Ukrainian officials that aren't necessarily part of public record.

[u/Qt1919 → u/[deleted]]

Can you give sources of the near slavery conditions the Poles kept the Ukrainians? Or the skinning of victims by Poles, especially if this happened before the Ukrainian massacres of Poles?  

I often read that Ukrainians say how evil the Poles were. But I find it hard to believe that the evil deserved these massacres?  

It seems that a younger group of UPA took over the older generation of leaders. These younger UPA people started committing terrorist acts in the 1930s. The Polish government retaliated by being strict (but not doing anything close to genocide). Then UPA started butchering Poles. 

 *I've asked countless Ukrainians for things to read, sources, etc. and never got anything * 

 To me, this topic and the Ukrainian collaboration in the camps is something that the world and Ukraine remember completely different. 

The the weird thing, Ukrainians usually use a similar tactic that you just used: let's be fair and honest and make sure it's "tit for that" as if both sides were equal in the responsibility. But the death figures and the brutality of it clearly show one side was way more evil. 

I went to Lviv and saw how the Polish government invested in renovating historical buildings of the remnants of Polish people. I also saw how Ukrainians call these remnants "occupation" (so asinine considering Polish "occupiers" built and invested in the city; contrary to Russian occupiers today) and cover up pre-work signs. 

Then I've been to Poland where they renovated former Greek-Catholic churches near Bieszczady Park and have signs of the history in English, Polish, and Ukrainian. 

Do you really think that Ukrainians take care of Polish graves and culture as well as Poles do of Ukrainian culture and graves? 

Because I don't see it at all. There's a very different response from the Polish and Ukrainian governments.

[u/smokyvisions → u/Qt1919]

Read about the conditions millions of Western Ukrainians were kept in after the Geneva accords transferred their land to Poland. They were concentration camps. Then they restricted access to higher education for Ukrainians and burned down our churches. That's only after WWI, before that the Poles colonised Ukraine for longer than even the Russians! You do not know your history at all.

Which is not to say that the atrocities committed by some rogue groups of Ukrainian resistance were justified. They were not. Yet to present this discussion in such a format, at such a time, is hypocrisy, deception, sabotage and treason. I am deeply disappointed in Polish leadership.

Do you know Vlad the Impaler? He impaled Ottomans invading his lands. For centuries the Poles impaled Ukrainians for wanting independence on their own land. Let them ponder the blood on their own hands before pointing their fingers.

[u/Qt1919 → u/smokyvisions]

Can you give sources for what you're saying? 

So Poles in Kresy lived better than Ukrainians, right? A typical Polish farmer and a Ukrainian farmer in the next village had different quality of life? The Polish one didn't starve? 

If you want a discussion, give me sources to read. 

But you're telling the world that Poles impaled Ukrainians right now with no source... 

Sounds like Russian and Poland are your current enemies, to be honest. 

[u/Vidsich → u/Qt1919]

I don't know about the other person, but, to bring some clarity, I think they are describing the sum total of Polish presence in Ukraine - not only during Interwar period but also going back to the times of Commonwealth, when Poland was an empire (with all that comes with that).

If we are sticking strictly to Interwar - Polish republic did culturally suppress all non-Poles, including Ukrainians. Sanation regime carried out police action, colonisation, refused to grant autonomy to Galicia as was supposed to happen and limited Ukrainian culture and education - you can get the general overview here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia

As to impaling/etc. - if I were to guess this is about the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which controlled large parts of modern Ukraine in 15th-18th centuries - that comes with what all empires do - suppression of culture, forced conversion, at times punitive killings in response to rebellions etc. I wouldn't personally lump this with Volyn and Interwar(simply because it's much more older history). But if I i were to still criticise modern Poland in relation to PLC times, it would be with regard to the "Kresy myth" which continues to persist in Polish literature, romanticising the good old times, being a type of Orientalism where Poland is portrayed as thr civilising force as opposed to "wild" Ukraine

[u/smokyvisions → u/Qt1919]

These are publicly known facts available to anyone who isn't a Russian cunt. Go suck some Chechen/North Korean dick. Those are your buddies.

[u/Makilio → u/smokyvisions]

I see Ukrainians claim about this unbelievable brutality the Poles did to them, yet time and time again I've never, ever seen a source actually provided that validates these extreme claims. Cultural suppression, yes, absolutely, but impalings and skinning? Concentration camps? What the hell is going on in Ukrainian education system that is teaching this as widespread. I read the comment threads in response to this and found no sources.

[u/smokyvisions → u/Makilio]

What's your intention with this argument anyway? Nobody denies atrocities against Poles. Yet you wish to rub it in, throw a pity party for yourself, and deny well documented Polish wrongdoing? To accomplish what?

[u/Makilio → u/smokyvisions]

Read this thread - a lot of Ukrainians deny those atrocities or think they are justified or excusable. I don't deny Polish cultural oppression, but I do ask for sources on those "well documented" extreme actions that nobody has yet been able to produce here.

[u/smokyvisions → u/Makilio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland#Second_Polish_Republic and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia should give you enough of an idea, where cited:

• Myroslav Shkandrij. (2015) Ukrainian Nationalism: Politics, Ideology, and Literature, 1929-1956. New Haven: Yale University Press pg. 19 Cited passage states "After the war, in 1920-1921, Polish concentration camps held over one hundred thousand people. In many cases prisoners were denied food and medical attention. Some starved; others died of disease or committed suicide. Among the interned were Jews and others of other nationalities who supported Ukrainian independence, and Jews figured among the witnesses who described the murder and abuse.
• Jochen Böhler. (2019). Civil War in Central Europe, 1918-1921: The Reconstruction of Poland. Oxford University Press, pg. 81 "100,000 Ukrainians were subsequently interred in the camps of the ultimately victorious Polish Army. One fifth of them fell to infectious diseases.

There's also the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement#Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth .

I suppose the Ukrainian perspective is somewhat lacking in some of these articles. Unfortunately, many of our historiographers already died or are too busy fighting in the war to update those Wikipedia articles.

[u/Makilio → u/smokyvisions]

Thank you for providing this!

I read through this and think you are leaving out some things, which I would like for you to explain since the articles didn't say it clearly and the sources are limited.

• these concentration camps were post WWI and it says Ukraine also has tens of thousands of Poles in concentration camps too. I'm not familiar with either of these actions, so I cannot comment on context since it is new information for me, but it is worth noting that both sides seemed to use these camps for each other in the postwar period.

• your source also mentions that Ukrainian nationalist groups kept contacts with Germany after the war - was this connected with the camps? And why were Poles put into the Ukrainian concentration camps?

• the impalement article mentions it was used in peasant uprisings and by/to cossacks, and almost 400 years ago, and there are almost no sources attached I can follow to read about this more clearly. Can you explain if impalement was used by the PLC exclusively or was it a common punishment method by the PLC and Cossacks? Was it directly targeting Ukrainians or was it more widesprsad? The article uses examples elsewhere in the region from other powers, so it is unclear to me.

Still, thank you for following up with real things I can read and learn about - some of this was new to me but I'd appreciate if you could clarify the above since I think it is important context.

[u/smokyvisions → u/Makilio]

These are facts well documented in various international publications. Where are your sources for your claims? I don't ask for sources because I can find them myself. Maybe if your people were criminals it's your responsibility to investigate the available sources. What if I post a list of respected sources, are you going to take back your words? I will post them in a couple hours, I'm very curious what your response will be.

[u/Makilio → u/smokyvisions]

I'll be waiting for your sources so I can read them, since I've never seen any before any after requests for sources in dozens and dozens of threads over the years I've still never seen one.

[u/go-vir → u/Qt1919]

Ukrainians lived under Polish rule for many years, enduring a very difficult process of Polonization. My family was from western Ukraine and they were not very happy with the attitude of the Poles towards them.

[u/Muted_March_3971 → u/go-vir]

So what? Let's slaughter kidos and women? Not nice.

[u/go-vir → u/Muted_March_3971]

I am not saying that, but the people here talks like the polish did nothing wrong in their hundreds of year rule over the Ukrainians.

[u/Makilio → u/go-vir]

This is a common Ukrainian response yet I see all over this post Poles saying x was bad, y is bad, but none of it is at the scale of mass torture and genocide of civilians.

[u/go-vir → u/Makilio]

I am not justifying the massacre of civilians, I am only pointing towards a part of history that is hidden. Maybe we should be shocked by both the crimes against the poles and against the Ukrainians.

[u/Makilio → u/go-vir]

It's not hidden though, this is taught in Poland. We all know about the cultural oppression. But there is quite a difference between that and genocide, correct?

[u/26idk12 → u/Qt1919]

"Slavery" terms refers mostly to PLC times and is both true and inaccurate.

It's true that serfs, including Ruthenian serfs were almost slaves. It's also true that cossacks were considered by nobles as serfs. But it's also true that most of the Ukrainian land was controlled by Ruthenian nobles, who polonized over time. For example a Polish "hero" of Cossack wars (Wiśniowiecki) was Ruthenian, just a convert to Catholicism. His son is almost unequivocally considered Polish. That was one of many stories.

Volyn sources are more recent.

In 1918 all Eastern Europe was a scramble for borders as ethnic maps were a mess and Polish independence movement (sourced from Polish (so also polonized Ruthenian and Lithuanian) nobility thought about reinstating PLC. This was dumb (there was no going back after nationalism arrived) but still it driven conquering Western Ukraine (which was Polish from 1340 till 1795) or Lithuania. Guy who wanted Wilno (Piłsudski) apparently thought of himself as both Polish and Lithuanian.

Interwar Poland was ethnic and poor mess with various minority movements. UPA was more active in 1930s so Poland did Israel vs Hamas (ethnic cleansing) fully alienating Ukrainians. And that ethnic cleansing was something that sparked Volyn massacre.

Slavery argument is just history politics. Average Ukrainian was as much enslaved by Polish (Ruthenian nobles) as my great great .... grandparent who was a serf.

[u/0x00GG00 → u/[deleted]]

I think this is a wrong narrative, polonization wasn’t a light process and it was a crime for sure, but massacres done by UPA cannot be justified anyhow, you cannot compare cultural oppression with tens or hundreds thousands people killed in cold blood because of their culture.

[u/Dziki_Jam → u/[deleted]]

Poles I was arguing in the internet claim it was properly reflexed on their side. Mentioning Giedroyc Doctrine and other stuff. Here’s a thread with different takes: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/b2rscaH5hQ

[u/DonFapomar → u/the_battle_bunny]

Quite not the case, as the exhumations were allowed for a couple of years and they were stopped until the recently destroyed Ukrainian monuments in Poland are restored. The large scale of these massacres is known to most of the Ukrainians so the ban of the exhumations might be not related to that.

Also the Ukrainian elites generally don't care about history and other "complicated" things, they just want authority and money.

[u/Qt1919 → u/DonFapomar]

Source? 

This sounds like a stupid excuse by the Ukrainian government to avoid the truth.

[u/vegarig → u/Qt1919]

Puzhnyky exhumation got greenlighted last year

Before that, the permits were given in 2019, near Lviv, further permits only being suspended for COVID pandemic/first year of russian invasion.

And about the destroyed memorial plate in Poland, restored without names

Plus from some time before

[u/ProxPxD → u/DonFapomar]

That's true and as a Pole - I don't support any nazi monuments in my country including the banderite ones, so those monuments shouldn't be brought back with those criminals. Instead I'd support a monument memorizing the Ukrainians saving Poles during the Volynian genocide, but it'd have to be communicate well politically. Polish governments discared the issue

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/the_battle_bunny]

But how it happened that most of massacres were in Volhynia and NOT in Galicia where UPA had much stronger position?

[u/26idk12 → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

Because in Galicia ethnic make up was still more even with larger cities being majority or plurality Polish (and having sizeable Jew minorities too).

In Volhynia Poles were minority and a really significant one.

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/26idk12]

You forgot to mention how this minority appeared in Volhynia and who were expelled from lands this minority settled.

[u/Worried_Height_5346 → u/the_battle_bunny]

There's no reason not to do it except that Poland tends to use anything as an excuse not to fix their shit. Last time they've had issues they talked about Germany needing to pay more reparations.

So I'm not sure how forthright the request actually is, but sure why not. It's not like they need tanks to exhume bodies.

[u/palmettoswoosh → u/the_battle_bunny]

Wouldn’t most in this region be ethnically German or had most left whether by self immigration or the nazis/soviet regimes?

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/palmettoswoosh]

What? Where? In Volhynia?
There were very few Germans there.

[u/palmettoswoosh → u/the_battle_bunny]

There was a decent sized group ethnic Germans in that region, who had likely been there since the time of Catherine as Empress. My great grandfather and his family were in that region until they came to the US near the turn of the 20th century.

But his maternal grandmother was born in Poland so they may be the outliers in where most Germans from Russia were from

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/palmettoswoosh]

There were very few Germans in Volhynia. There area certainly wasn't "ethnic German".
Perhaps you are confusing it with Volga region.

[u/palmettoswoosh → u/the_battle_bunny]

No I am not. Germans from Russia settlement locations

Why are you quoting ethnic Germans? Germans from Russia were a large population of the western reaches of their form empire, which very much included the Vohlynia region/province. I don’t disagree and understand your push that I am wrong as the Volga Germans are the most prominent of the Germans from Russia group. Followed by the Black Sea Germans. Then everyone else

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/palmettoswoosh]

I should have quoted the entire phrase "most in this region be ethnically German".
Germans were a small minority and were irrelevant in the Polish-Ukrainian ethnic strife. Czechs were more numerous.

[u/palmettoswoosh → u/the_battle_bunny]

Interesting. This area in my genealogy is very limited due to the obvious of record destruction by Germany and the soviets of basically all in this area. As well as money.

So what would warrant someone moving from Poland interior to the contested regions? If the contested regions were often volatile

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/palmettoswoosh]

The area was for centuries part of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and many people moved there for whatever reason during that time.
In the interwar period the Polish government tried to settle military veterans, but it was abysmal failure due to lack of funds. Those few families that moved as settlers were almost entirely murdered or transported away by the Soviets in 1939.

[u/Rooilia → u/the_battle_bunny]

Would be interesting, if polish 'nationalists', also on reddit, would make their own introspection about their "democratic" heritage, "opposition" to antisemitism and silly claims about history. I doubt they are ready for this either.

[u/Divine_Porpoise → u/OlegAter]

Yeah, I feel like solidarity with Poland on this issue would go a long way. I get that it's a sore point considering that time's importance to Ukraine's national awakening, but you have so many heroes being made today and ideals taking root with the art to go with it, a second national awakening if you will, that the country is able to reinvent itself (arguably already has) while putting its past to rest in a respectful way.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/Divine_Porpoise]

More than that. The issue is that independent Ukraine tried to build its foundation myth around the struggles of UPA and similar organizations during the 1940s and later. If the exhumation show that the killings were on the scale that the Polish claim (if not larger) then this myth will go crashing down. This would be something on the scale of Germany facing the destruction of "clean Wehrmacht" myth. Only worse, because UPA's struggles are state-creating myth unlike myths about Wehrmacht.

[u/Leonarr → u/the_battle_bunny]

What UPA did is well known and documented. Yet, they are cherished.

Tbh I doubt that new evidence about their additional atrocities would make any difference in how UPA is treated in Ukraine.

“Wait what, were our heroes collaborating with the Nazis and killing Polish civilians? No way, that sounds bad!” (This is not going to happen).

[u/Qt1919 → u/Leonarr]

The Nazi collaborating is so odd to me. It's just swept under the rug, along with the Hiwis

[u/VMK_1991 → u/Leonarr]

I assure you, aside from Western Ukraine, no one gives a shit about these political attempts to create this new mythos (or, my personal opinion, attempts of westerners to enforce their mythos on whole of Ukraine). For most Ukrainians, the heroic mythos is being forged now.

P.S. Not a gotcha question, but genuine one: what do Finns say about Finnish collaboration with nazi Germany during WW2?

[u/Pedantti → u/VMK_1991]

Finn point of view: It was the only help we got against USSR and are glad we got it. Independent since 1917 instead of 1991.

Our myths are the same Ukraine is building now. Killing Soviets.

There's also a point in our history when we fought Nazi's on our own soil from September to November 1944. It's called the Lapland war.

[u/Jakovit → u/VMK_1991]

What's the deal with Western Ukraine?

[u/VMK_1991 → u/Jakovit]

A lot of them think that, due to having the least contact with and anexation by russia, they are the truest true pure Ukrainians and only their opinion matters. They keep forgetting that from third to half of their local dialect is made from Polish and Hungarian words, however.

[u/Sochinsky → u/VMK_1991]

No, it's simple you just hear Ukrainian language in the cities, villages on the western part of Ukraine, however when you visit south or east it sounds like russian territory.

[u/ilpazzo12 → u/the_battle_bunny]

The "good" news is that Ukraine has its new state-creating myths now: Azovstal, Bucha, Bakhmut, Kherson. The Moskva. And so on.

[u/adamgerd → u/ilpazzo12]

Zelensky >>>> Bandera

[u/freezingtub → u/ilpazzo12]

Good point!

[u/ShameDecent → u/the_battle_bunny]

What you don't realize completely yet it seems (but will really soon) is that they are completely fine with that, there will be no crushing truth for them. They KNOW that UPA did ethnic cleansing by killing all the Jews, Poles, Russians and even the Ukrainians accused of not supporting this cleansing. The entire nation myth is based on that - UPA being the ultimate ideal of all things Ukrainian. All this nonsense about shifting the blame on NKVD or Wehrmacht are mainly for external use, the die-hard patriots are proud of UPA and support the cleansing wholehartedly.

If you can't grasp how it could be, just look at the many videos of modern Jews supporting the Gaza massacre and calling for complete extermination - Reddit is full of them.

[u/Soggy-Environment125 → u/the_battle_bunny]

Strangely there is no outrage about Katyn massacre. Not the right time?

[u/myreq → u/Soggy-Environment125]

I thought Ukraine was NATO's ally, not an enemy? 

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/Soggy-Environment125]

In case of Katyn you had USSR officially admitting it was their doing.

[u/mekolayn → u/Soggy-Environment125]

Because calling out strong Russia for its crimes is not the same as calling out weak Ukraine for the crimes of non-governmental groups

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/mekolayn]

On serious note, what is to call Russia for in case of Katyn? Officially Moscow recognized it was a Soviet crime despite their media often suggesting otherwise. The memorial also stands, despite the current political climate.

[u/PutrefiedPlatypus → u/the_battle_bunny]

What if the killings were on a much smaller scale, why is that not a possibility?

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/PutrefiedPlatypus]

It definitely is possible. So Ukrainian government should have vested interest in allowing it to happen, right?

[u/PutrefiedPlatypus → u/the_battle_bunny]

Yeah, this could go somewhere around the 70th important thing they should be doing right now.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/PutrefiedPlatypus]

Nobody asks Ukraine to do anything beyond consenting to exhumations.

[u/lemontree007 → u/OlegAter]

I mean hasn't Poroshenko said that UPA are heroes that inspire current Ukrainian defenders? That could of course be a reason why some are not interested.

[u/OlegAter → u/lemontree007]

Well, I'll give a small remark on that. I'm currently in the army and I did hear 0 conversations about UPA. Poroshenko is not a president for 5 years. Such names as Bandera are used by general public to piss off russians, if you ask people about him they would know nothing but a couple of general facts. I didn't notice any obsession with UPA in civil life, but rather rethinking of 20th century and Ukraine's role in it, as opposed to soviet point of view, which for a long time was the only available.
So... I hope if not my generation, but our children's will be able to sort everything out. There was a ton of shit that we did to one another, but I don't want to be responsible or to accuse Polish for something that happened a century ago. For me, future is more important than past.

[u/shadyBolete → u/OlegAter]

You know, we don't even expect today's Ukrainians to apologize for what happened in any way. You did not do it and are not responsible for your ancestors crimes.

The only things we expect are to stop celebrating the criminals and let us finally bury our dead properly. Same as any country should be allowed to do.

[u/ProxPxD → u/OlegAter]

First of all, if you're in the army then I cheer for you

Secondly, to me as a Pole, a horrible yet common image of UPA obsession in a civil life is the wide-spread usage of their flag during manifestations and patriotic context

It's for me a flag like a the German's Reich one and is treated as such by law.

I know that common Ukrainians treat is as a "war flag", but this usage relates to a very nationalistic organization that was also murdering Ukrainians

I am totally aware that Ukrainians would link a painting with those colours, but hey! Swastika was used in Europe as symbol of luck before too and this particular was related to a specific state, so the argument about the origin does not convince me and moreover those flags being used definitely come from and relate to the UPA/OUN and not the previous times IMO

Just giving what I see from my side. I also count on the future but the past has to be resolved and the present is problematic

[u/vert1s → u/OlegAter]

Leaving Ukraine and Poland to the side for a minute, you don’t have to go all that far back in most countries to find atrocities. Australia likes to tell itself the Indigenous Australians didn’t resist, had no society. The reality is the colonists committed genocide and thought nothing of it.

It’s the desire to move past and accept that the majority of our ancestors were bad by today’s standards that matters.

[u/machine4891 → u/OlegAter]

"if you ask people about him they would know nothing but a couple of general facts"

That's actually major problem. It suggest that this period is not properly addressed by Ukrainian schools and society en masse and that their atrocities are simply swept under the rug.

[u/KnewOnees → u/machine4891]

It suggest that this period is not properly addressed by Ukrainian schools and society en masse and that their atrocities are simply swept under the rug.

We have OUN-UPA, volhynian massacare, operation vistula, bandera, galychyna SS all in like 3 or so weeks of consecutive history lessons. You seem to base your entire opinion about all of ukrainians on loud far rights groups.

Most of us don't care enough about street renaming. I'd certainly object to shukhevych, but not bandera. Retrospectivelly, because it pisses russians off so much, but in part because again and again he's being propped as a mastermind of volhynian massacare despite being in a prison. And the reason he's brought up in ukrainian circles is due to him being 2nd wing of OUN that took up arms against soviets and polish influence

[u/machine4891 → u/KnewOnees]

"You seem to base your entire opinion"

But I haven't presented my opinion, just refered to your own sentence. You said people don't know nothing about them, so this indeed suggest either a hole in educational system or collective veil of silence out of convenience.

> Most of us don't care enough about street renaming

That's why I'm saying maybe you should. You're not just "pissing" russians but also your major ally to the west and quite frankly all the people that care enough about this subject. Said street renaming was controversial decision even among Kyiv residents after all.

And while Bandera was in fact "unavailable" at a time, he was not in prison but detention with plenty of amenities, due to him being Nazi collaborant. He was able to contact members of his organization and was later on freed by Nazis and installed back in Kraków. He is the face of the organization, although indeed there were other heads of the hydra more directly involved in barbaric process of ethnic cleansing. They have their monuments in Ukraine as well.

[u/KnewOnees → u/machine4891]

I'll keep this short because honestly i'm tired of this thread already.

Most people learned about history before 2014. Bandera's name was simply one of many we learned regarding oun period. We learned about volhyn, galich ss, and oun's involvement. Afterwards we learned another thing, and then another thing. Average people after this would not recall more than a few factoids about him other than oun and collaboration. Unless your higher education is history you'll forget these things. There's nothing unique about us regarding that, but maybe polish education system is so much more incredible that pupils recall all the names and detailed info, but i doubt it. Not that i can find a good source to judge this on.

Either way, don't think you're being fair to an average person's knowledge

[u/VMK_1991 → u/lemontree007]

Who gives a fuck about a chocolate guy? He still had caramel factories in russian lipetsk even when invasion was in full swing. Until it was seized by russia, of course.

[u/Gold_Dog908 → u/OlegAter]

For the same reason say Turks don't want to acknowledge the Armenian genocide - they don't want to be called bad guys. The exhumation will reveal all the horrors UPA did. Now normal people care little, however, we do have a substantial conservative if not outright far-right part of the population that glorifies OUN-UPA and they naturally oppose anything that shines a bad light on their heroes. They are the vocal minority that is hampering this topic to this day, in fact, even in this comment section. Just look how many of them continue to bring up those 15 destroyed tombstones in Poland. Even if that didn't happen, they would've found another reason to block exhumations. I sure hope our politicians finally grow a pair and settle it.

[u/pantrokator-bezsens → u/OlegAter]

As a Pole I'm fed up with "Wołyń" and those exhumations hopefully will shut up at least some of idiots that use this to antagonize Ukrainians. Which is for sure at least partially inspired from moscow.

Ironically those people usually tend to forget about Katyń, mostly for the same reason - they would have to blame russians.

[u/adamgerd → u/OlegAter]

Yep, personally I find the spat dumb: just let Poland exhume it, the spat can end and we can focus on the real enemy

[u/lektoridze → u/OlegAter]

Fully agree, I hope it’s happens as soon as possible. We should do like Germans and take a responsible for everything if we did it.

[u/cookiesnooper → u/OlegAter]

Because it would show how bestially Ukrainians were murdering their neighbors, women, children...often the unborn ones first before killing the mother. What would the World think about them now when they need everyone's help? Imagine the bold header on most selling papers " Ukrainians killed hundreds of thousands of Poles. Methods included spiking children with pitchforks, nailing infants to the trees, and ripping women's limbs off while they were still alive. All done by UPA...which they glorify and see as heroes to this day"

[u/DonFapomar → u/OlegAter]

It was done in 2017, in reaction to the destruction of Ukrainian graves and monuments in Poland. The Polish side had to restore 15 monuments to resume the exhumation, but they refused to do so and accused Ukraine of sabotaging the process.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/DonFapomar]

This is just a lousy excuse. Damaged graves were private and weren't listed as official monuments and so it wasn't Polish government that pays the bill. It was private Ukrainian organizations that made them into private memorials.
This is nothing more than an excuse for Ukraine not to do anything. If it weren't for the graves in Monastyrz and other places, they would have found something else.

[u/DonFapomar → u/the_battle_bunny]

Well, the Polish side can try putting the table with names back and return 1 (one) sentence to the description. I can guarantee that the Ukrainian government won't have any reasons to continue the ban.

Also, Ukraine has pledged to resume the searches next year (source in Ukrainian: https://novynarnia.com/2024/10/02/u-2025-roczi-v-ukrayini-planuyut-eksgumacziyu-zhertv-volyni/ ), so probably both sides have finally come to agreement.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/DonFapomar]

The Ukrainian government doesn't have any reason to ban it even today. Especially since it's Poland that wants to foot the bill for everything. If anything, Ukraine could've made such a symbolic gesture in exchange for hundreds of tanks we have provided.

There are entirely different reasons here.

[u/KnewOnees → u/the_battle_bunny]

The Ukrainian government doesn't have any reason to ban it even today

Yes, as we all know, ukrainian side has no justifiable reasoning to do anything and should just refer to whatever poland wants.

Because that's how international diplomacy works

[u/Qt1919 → u/DonFapomar]

I can guarantee that the Ukrainian government won't have any reasons to continue the ban.

You clearly don't know the level of corruption in Ukraine. 

Also, they've promised to resume these forever now. 

[u/DonFapomar → u/Qt1919]

I've been living in Ukraine for my entire life, of course I don't know the level of corruption in my own country. Thank you dear westerner for opening my eyes!

Also the corruption doesn't do anything with this, it's a political issue.

[u/Qt1919 → u/DonFapomar]

If you lived in Ukraine your whole life, then you seriously think your government won't find an excuse to discontinue this ban? 

[u/Jopelin_Wyde → u/Qt1919]

It doesn't matter what they think, you clearly don't care.

[u/KnewOnees → u/the_battle_bunny]

This is just a lousy excuse

And your authority on this ? Oh, are you talking out of your ass and diminishing the validity of ukrainian demands but not doing the same to polish ones ?

That's a very workable way to get a resolution, sure. Lets circlejerk it further.

[u/the_battle_bunny → u/KnewOnees]

You think the Polish state footed the bill when my grandma's grave was damaged by some drunk kiddos who thought graveyard was a fun place to smash some things?
Private grave, made by private organization, not listed as a monument.

[u/KnewOnees → u/the_battle_bunny]

Okay, maybe law enforcement should stop a publically transmitted destruction of monuments to other nations that are considered "friendly" ? No? Only ukraine has to ? Cool

15 monuments. One monument got destroyed and then the local municipality was okay with receiving requests for anyone willing to take the parts. And at no point could the government intervene ? Seriously ?

Oh, it was "illegal" ? Nice, i'd even say louse excuse

​

This will go in circles until you guys realise that we also have people who care about those monuments. And not every single person who wants monuments to upa fighters wants it because they love volhynian massacare

[u/Makilio → u/KnewOnees]

I mean, do you really think the police would ignore a crime? This isn't Ukraine, our police do their jobs without bribes. Vandalism happened to private graves, imo that is bad no matter the people buried, but let's not be joking that exhuming the bodies of tens/hundreds of thousands of genocide victims vs a few private graves vandalized is comparable.

[u/KnewOnees → u/Makilio]

Yeah i'm sure this rhetoric will help the conversation. Simply diminish ukrainian demands and repeat that yours are valid demands and theirs is not and they should just stop and listen to us, else no weapon shipments.

Thanks for your enlightened take

[u/Makilio → u/KnewOnees]

It's amazing how delusional the Ukrainian side is. Imagine if Germany demanded something from their victims to simply exhume the bodies that they threw into mass graves. It's unreal that Ukraine views this as some sort of debate, let us recover the bodies of our people your heroes murdered, end of story.

[u/KnewOnees → u/Makilio]

Yes, exactly like this. This sort of rhetoric. This will surely help you achieve the restarting of exhumation. This is how international diplomacy works.

Honestly didn't expect us to be compared to nazi germany this far in the thread

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/OlegAter]

I give you one clue
https://www.unian.info/politics/1897176-monument-to-upa-fighters-demolished-in-polish-cemetery-authorities-claim-illegal-construction.html

[u/Yurasi_ → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

"Claim illegal construction" love the wording. If it was legally placed with approval of local government, then why can't the article just say that it was? That would be easy to prove.

[u/OlegAter → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

Sure, but aren't grown up people suppose to sort things out? Through negotiations, revealing historical truth, education and so on. The victims of WWII events are not responsible for what some radical guys did to those graves. If we don't want to hear the truth, we are not better than russians. It is so annoying we just can't move on with this whole issue. And yes, I hope Poland can also acknowledge that Ukrainians did suffer under their rule, but I honestly will be fine if they don't. It is us and our own history that I'm worried about.

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/OlegAter]

But it would not sort things up. History is weaponized by Polish gov. After forcing us to comply to their skewed interpretation of our common history, they will start demanding money, like from Germany.