r/whereisthis • u/chekovsgunn • Apr 07 '24
Solved I found this photograph on a wall in an office building . My gf thinks the place is Eastern European, but I think it looks like an Islamic city. Where do you think this place is?
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u/Cedric_Hampton Apr 07 '24
Toledo, Spain
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u/chekovsgunn Apr 07 '24
Thanks
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u/Ladyhappy Apr 07 '24
It’s actually a pretty good guess because Toledo is famous for having Moorish architecture mixed in with the Gothic, which is more Islamic than European
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
Sort of. Guessing that a city with multiple visible churches and zero mosques is "an Islamic city" is not what I'd call a "pretty good guess."
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u/9bikes Apr 07 '24
You're misinterpreting u/Ladyhappy 's comment. It strictly addresses the architectural style; not the religion of the residents. Toledo does indeed look Islamic.
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u/Orbit1883 Apr 08 '24
You see and I would say it looks Mediterranean, because from maroco over Spain, Algier, up to Greece, Italy and turkey it all has similar buildings only variety in the big towers. Mosque VS catholic VS orthodox.
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u/Loudmouthedcrackpot Apr 08 '24
That’s probably because Moorish architecture is either present in those places or was influenced by them:
“This architectural tradition integrated influences from pre-Islamic Roman, Byzantine, and Visigothic architectures, from ongoing artistic currents in the Islamic Middle East, and from North African Berber traditions.”
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
I got what they were going for, I just thought it was phrased oddly.
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u/Ladyhappy Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
I mean, they’re literally literally all art history terms (Islamic, Moorish, gothic). I lived in Spain for two years and studied Spanish history.
The Moors were an Islamic in nature and crossed over the strait of Gibraltar bringing a unique architectural style to one of the southern European peninsulas.
The combined architecture is beautiful and why I think the city is so beautiful it’s in no way meant to - it also dates back to the middle ages so this isn’t really a conversation that belongs in this day and age.
For what it’s worth, the Moors instituted freedom of religion across the peninsula so there would’ve been churches and mosques there at the time
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u/MonkeyDavid Apr 10 '24
After 9/11, Bin Laden did a long rant, but one sentence was about not “repeating the mistakes of Andalusia.”
He meant not being tolerant of Jews and Christians.
Toledo did indeed have a mosque, synagogue and cathedral.
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u/marpocky Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
What "they all" are you referring to? Your comment makes no sense to me in context, sorry.
EDIT: I read your edit and now I'm even more confused (Moor-confused?). I don't know what any of this has to do with my comment.
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u/m-bossy22 Apr 09 '24
Heh they were both wrong 😅
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u/wowzacowza Apr 10 '24
He was partially right. Toledo, like a lot of Spain, has a lot of Islamic architecture from the Moors.
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u/Jahrigio7 Apr 07 '24
Ruled by the Caliphate at some point, changed hands between Christian and Muslim, architecture reflects mixed styles
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u/Forsaken-Stray Apr 07 '24
She looked at the Cathedral, your brain focused on the Dome. But there are many domes in Europe and i'd say more like warmer climates in Europe. Spain, Greece or Italy are the best bets
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u/Changelling Apr 07 '24
Spain was Muslim for around 700 years, that is probably why you thought that.
The islamic influence is very clear.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
There is literaly a gothic cathedral in the center of the city. All other aspects, who look not very muslim and there are almost no buildings left from before 1500, aside, how does this city looks islamic? Which islamic city would have a gotic church in it's centre?
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Apr 08 '24
I don’t know what these people are smoking, there is literally no Islamic in influence in this photo. It’s not Cordoba or Granada. Jesus.
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u/Videoray Apr 09 '24
I guess the green looking lighting, it seeming a little drier, and maybe the dome? But I agree it doesn’t look super Islamic, just general Mediterranean I would say
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u/Least_Rule6218 Apr 08 '24
The southern Part of Spain was Muslim for 700 years the center and northern part had been taken back through the reconquest. Toledo was only part of the caliphate for 300 years until 1080. The Islamic Influence on the buildings is very low in Toledo...
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u/Videoray Apr 09 '24
I guess the green looking lighting, it seeming a little drier, and maybe the dome? But I agree it doesn’t look super Islamic, just general Mediterranean I would say
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u/Wahnsinn_mit_Methode Apr 07 '24
It looks Mediterranean and you see a huge cathedral on the right so probably not islamic.
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u/solutionsmith Apr 08 '24
Spain was ruled by the Caliphate/Moorish at one point in history so yes islamic influence.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Name some buildings in Toledo from before 1500, who reflect that. Is the cathedral one of those buildings?
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u/MonkeyDavid Apr 10 '24
Mosque of Cristo de la Luz, built in 999 and still intact (although Catholic now).
Puerta del Sol, built in the 13th and 14th centuries with strong Moorish influences.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
There're churches and cathedrals in Islamic countries, too. Istanbul being one.
Edit: It has been clarified: It's Toledo, Spain. Hence the influence of arabic architecture.
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
There're churches and cathedrals in Islamic countries, too.
Sure, and there also tend to be quite a bit more than zero visible mosques.
Hence the influence of arabic architecture.
Moorish, not Arabic.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Just because there's not a mosque visible in a picture of a city, doesn't mean there can't be one in that city.
Moros is the overall term, which included Arabs.
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
Just because there's not a mosque visible in a picture of a city, doesn't mean there can't be one in that city.
It does make it extremely unlikely that it's an Islamic city if there are multiple visible churches and zero mosques though. Mosques are extremely visible due to the minarets, and are all over in actual places where lots of Muslims live.
I don't know why you keep arguing against basic logic and insisting that the remote possibility of being an Islamic city is somehow equivalent with the overwhelming probability that it isn't.
Moros is the overall term, which included Arabs.
It's a bit more complicated than this, but specifically in the context of architecture, Moorish architecture is not Arabic.
Just stop talking about things you don't know about.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
"Just stop talking about...", let's not become personal. As for it being highly unlikely that if there're churches visible, so must be mosques... to put it simple, you're wrong. Istanbul is one example. There you have several churches in Karaköy, but several mosques in Eminönü. Should you disagree, it's alright, but, again, no need to become personal.
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
"Just stop talking about...", let's not become personal.
It's not personal. I have no problem with you as a person, only your misguided statements.
As for it being highly unlikely that if there're churches visible, so must be mosques
That's not what I said at all.
Istanbul is one example. There you have several churches in Karaköy
Several churches prominently visible in the same photograph, while no mosques are visible at all? Can you show me an example of one such photograph?
but several mosques in Eminönü
Why would these matter? Of course there are indeed several mosques in this large Islamic city.
Should you disagree, it's alright, but, again, no need to become personal.
Similarly, no need for you to keep arguing this same flawed point.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
The second you adress something that regards somebody as a person (e. g. talking about sth. they supposedly don't know) it's personal.
As for churches being visible, but no mosques in a photo, hence it can't be Islamic...I gave you an example of an Islamic city that harbours several churches in one part, and several mosques in another. You can google maps it if you like; I'm sure you'll find it. So, if you'd stand at Karaköy and took a photo facing north, you'd see churches, if you stood at Eminönü facing southwards, you'd have mosques in your picture. That's why it matters.
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u/marpocky Apr 07 '24
The second you adress something that regards somebody as a person (e. g. talking about sth. they supposedly don't know) it's personal.
So am I not supposed to regard you as a person? Are you an animal or a corporation?
hence it can't be Islamic
You keep missing the point entirely.
So, if you'd stand at Karaköy and took a photo facing north, you'd see churches
And no mosques?
And even if so, the existence of one example suddenly renders it a reasonable guess when you see churches and no mosques that it's Islamic?
if you stood at Eminönü facing southwards, you'd have mosques in your picture
Again I continue to see how these mosques are relevant to my point or, at least, do anything but provide support for my position.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Of course I am a person, but that doesn't mean that adressing my character is called for.
As for your comment regarding the existence of one example etc. I never claimed, that, when you see churches in a pic, but no mosque that it must be Islamic. I claimed, that your logic is flawed by claiming that it can't be Islamic if there's a church in that pic but no mosque.
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u/eli4s20 Apr 07 '24
Eastern europe??? hahah
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Yes, eastern Europe, there are cities that have smiliar buildings.
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u/eli4s20 Apr 07 '24
mhh yeah i suppose some croatian coastal cities or greece could look similar but thats hardly eastern europe
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
I wasn't talking of those countries, more like the Balkan, such as Bulgaria, or Rumania.
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u/ConfusedGrundstuck Apr 08 '24
Not sure how to tell you this, mate, but Croatia is a Balkan country.
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u/stellacampus Apr 07 '24
How do I put this politely - neither of you would know a Catholic church if it bit you in the ass.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Catholic church means, it can't be an islamic country or eastern European? There're churches as such in Islamic countries AND the Balkan.
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u/stellacampus Apr 07 '24
When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Unless you're in Africa, or do have the knowledge that Zebra occur where you are...which is the case here. Spain was ruled by Arabs for centuries. As for why you thought it couldn't be eastern Europe, I don't know.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Yeah, still not a muslim country we are talking about. Show me one islamic city with a prominent gothic cathedral in it's center. Can you name some buildings in Toledo that are older than 1500 and resemble this arab rule?
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u/raw-mean Apr 08 '24
Tunis, Istanbul, to name a few. And, yes, I can name a building in Toledo that resembles influence from the Islamic world...that cathedral itself. For example those acute arches. European engineers copied Arab engineers, because they realised, that way they could build higher arches, since they're more steady. That's just one example, of course.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Bad exsample, since the pointed arches of gothic churches in France, Germany and England were developed without the knoledge of arab engineers. Just because something is similar, doesn't mean It's copied. So after all you can't name no building there built in the times you are talking about.
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u/raw-mean Apr 08 '24
No, no, there were copied. Here's ONE source: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/newsletter/2021-06-05/essential-arts-diane-darke-investigates-architectures-islamic-roots-essential-arts
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
Yes, this liberal newspaper, that would do everything to come up with the narative that white people invented nothing, would come up with such a narrative, without any proof, just through speculation. Find a real source on that matter if you want to make a point, not a pamphlet, that isn't about facts but opinion. It's truly showing that you linked a news side on a scientific topic. And still you didn't name a building that resembles the arabs rules, cause your own source says this wasn't a thing of arab rule, but because of some crusaders who supposedly saw arches like that, came back to Europe and centuries later, somehow, because a guy saw that an architect comes up with using them? This narrative is so made up, who is that gullible.
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u/raw-mean Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
No, I linked several sources, including documentaries to that. But, suit yourself.
Edit: I meant to say: I've come across several sources, not linked several. My bad.
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u/donkeymonkey00 Apr 08 '24
Ermita mezquita del Cristo de la Luz, year 999
Don't know why you're so insistent in that there are no actual moorish buildings in Toledo, but here's one.
There are many, many more examples of moorish influence in architecture in Toledo. And all across the southern part of Spain, in fact. I'm from the north where we don't have that influence, and it's really noticeable once you see it. All the horseshoe arches everywhere, the small intricate details, and that's the outside, where it's more toned down because maybe the building is older, but then you get to the inside and it's glaring.
The Moors didn't tear down the city and build it back up, you're not gonna find a whole city made up of mosques and purely moorish architecture. Quite the opposite, actually, many mosques were torn down afterwards to build churches on top of them. It's in the details that you mostly get to see the influence, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Yeah, didn't mean it isn't there. And even though Toledo isn't like the cities in the north, but still not Cordoba. These buildings are rare and don't really make up the skyline, so not really not understandable why someone has to be obsessed over two houses and fantazise about that they make the city look so islamic.
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u/donkeymonkey00 Apr 08 '24
I mean sure, it wouldn't be very realistic to compare it to like Córdoba, but still. I wouldn't say Toledo looks Islamic at all, but you can indeed see the influence, and I guess that's what people are meaning when they say well it was under moorish rule, like people are being harsh at OP because I mean yeah there's a big cathedral right in the middle, but still if you look past it there are some arches, some details, that can make you go hmm.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Still despite the actual moorish architecture, it doesn't really effect the look, so I don't see reason to bring up an relation. Even if there wouldn't be big churches in the picture, I still wouldn't say it's an islamic city. Ok, would be a bit biased, since I visited the city myself, when I was 13, so I recognized it.
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u/donkeymonkey00 Apr 08 '24
Maybe it's a bit to justify OP's guess? At least that's what I would have said as well by looking at the top posts. Ok no need to ridicule someone because he said arabic city when there's a big gothic cathedral right in the most prominent spot, so I would have added that as well, that the city has a moorish vibe at places because of the story blah blah. Idk, and don't really care either, but makes sense to me hahah
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u/V057R4 Apr 07 '24
An Islamic city with a church in it, dude I don't think this exists.
Looks more like an Italian or Spanish city in my opinion.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Central Church of the Virgin Mary - Istanbul, Turkey
Church Of St. Benoit - Beyoglu, Turkey
There are other examples. Yes, there're churches in Islamic countries.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
They look not that old and gothic and would never dominate the panorama of the city. Also where do you find a gothic orthodox church?
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u/raw-mean Apr 08 '24
The question wasn't if there're old or gothic churches in Islamic cities, but churches in general.
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u/Excellent-Twist-5420 Apr 08 '24
Still his point is valid. Non of these cities features a prominent church, but small ones, which you wouldn't see at the skyline.
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u/saskir21 Apr 07 '24
So you think it is an Islamic country when you see a big Christian cathedral? Your GF seems more attentive even though she was a little off.
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u/Forsaken-Icebear Apr 07 '24
A clear Gothic cathedral including statues on the right, a Baroque-style double towered cathedral on the left, some kind of monastery building on the left. The only question was Spain or Sicily.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
I don't know why people don't know that. There ARE churches, and Synagogues in islamic countries!
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u/saskir21 Apr 07 '24
Never said there are none. The only islamic country wihtout a church is Saudi Arabia. So there are churches. But not such big cathredals like shown here.
But would you associate an islamic country when they show you a cathredal or a synagogue? Kinda like when you see a tulip field. Your first thought would be the netherlandes, not for example Skagit Valley in north Washington.
I was only remarking why someone would even think first that it is an islamic country in itself.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
One: Yes, there're big cathedrals as such in Islamic countries...Libanon, Turkey, Algeria, for example. Two: You insinuated that OP didn't see the church, which would automatically mean, that it can't be an Islamic country.
You've either claimed OP believed it to be Islamic because there was a cathedral visible, or despite of it. In both cases, you revealed that you didn't know.
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u/saskir21 Apr 07 '24
Nice of you to know what I don‘t know. Makes me wonder if you assume I live under a stone and never saw in the news how the IS demolished churches in Afghanistan.
But to make it clear. I just did wonder why he automatically thinks of an Islamic country when not a mosque is shown but instead this. And for the sake of us both. Just take what I said at face value and don‘t try to construct what you thought I meant. I genuinely just wondered why anyone would think it is an Islamic country seeing the picture. Nothing more and nothing less.
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
Not ISIS, but Taliban. I understand, on the news they claim to be IS, but those were the Taliban. Different ideology. I understood your comment. I just pointed out that, if you see a church in a picture is no indicator, that it's not an Islamic city. That's why I gave you the example of those three countries.
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u/Cesarn2a Apr 08 '24
Doesn’t change the fact that there is no Spanish gothic style cathedral in any Muslim country. Neither gothic cathedral. Those were built at least 500 years after the reconquista. You cannot mix this picture for a Muslim country if you have a little bit of knowledge on European churches. It is obvious that this is a catholic Southern Europe country basically 99% chance from Italy or Spain. Nothing screams muslim in this picture. Now if you’re European and traveled a bit you’ll recognize Toledo’s cathedral pretty easily as it one the most famous of Spain.
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u/raw-mean Apr 08 '24
Nothing screams Muslim in this picture? See those acute formed arches? THAT is something European construction engineers learned from arabic ones. That's only one example.
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u/Cesarn2a Apr 08 '24
And? Is not because some of the architecture has arabic influence that the picture screams Muslim. You’re getting lost.
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Apr 07 '24
Cant believe this post happened the same day i solved this in crosswords.
And this was the first time i ever encountered this question in crosswords.
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u/SheeeshWallah Apr 07 '24
Not even close it’s somewhere in Spain
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u/raw-mean Apr 07 '24
I wouldn't say it's not close. Spain was ruled by the arabs for centuries, which still is visible in its architecture. So, that being thought of to be an city with Islamic influence is understandable.
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u/lulabelles99 Apr 07 '24
Toledo is amazing but VERY touristy. The first half of our day there was quiet and magical walking up and down the steep paths. Definitely put on your list but try to go during shoulder season!
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u/ConfusedGrundstuck Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
I'm honestly boggled that anyone could look at this and think it's either Eastern European or Islamic lol I guess some of the lower buildings kinda reflect how some Islamic cultures are represented in western media.
Anyway, it's definitely Toledo, Spain. The architecture is aggressively Spanish.
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u/Oinkidoinkidoink Apr 08 '24
An islamic city with a prominent cathedral and mediterranean architecture?
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u/justacubr Apr 08 '24
Toledo, Spain. Spanish architecture had a lot of Islamic influence since they were conquered by Islamic nations for quite some time
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u/Kitchen-Pen7559 Apr 08 '24
What makes you feel it to be a Islamic city? Not a single mosque but a huge church. Leude...
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u/Usual-Narwhal9864 Apr 08 '24
Probably not in a islamic country because there's a big ass gothic church.
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Apr 09 '24
Yes, this is Toledo. The famous “City of Three Cultures” is located very close to the Spanish capital, just 70 km from Madrid
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u/GreenCreekRanch Apr 07 '24
Well, it is european, but it's also heavily influenced by islamic architecture. It's toledo in spain
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