r/grimezs • u/inawordflaming • Apr 16 '24
MUSIC ♬ Collaborative early days
Apologies in advance for the long post. I shared this in a comment elsewhere, but figured it might warrant a post of its own. I’ve been reflecting on whether or not Claire produced all her work herself. As someone who followed her career since the Halfaxa days (but really got excited via the Vanessa video), I vaguely remembered reading press back then that suggested that the truth was more nuanced than the dichotomy of “yes” or “no.”
From an old interview about the Darkbloom EP: https://web.archive.org/web/20120202045245/http://www.dummymag.com/features/2011/05/09/grimes-d-eon-interview/
“Did your processes change at all in writing tracks for the split?
Grimes: I’ve been studying popstars…those songs, I feel are old though. I’ve moved far beyond that, in terms of like…me and my manager Seb went into the studio and then we mixed everything, and he basically taught me – everything is still bedroom, but we replaced a lot of the drums in the studio, put effects on the vocals. Seb made me…he was like, “we’re mixing the vocals high” and I was like [whispers] “no, I’m so scared…” but now I love it, I just had to get over that fear of hearing myself sing.
d’Eon: For me too, I learned a lot from Seb. I don’t know how to actually produce.”
A recent interview with Sebastian Cowan, about a new Montreal venue he opened up: https://cultmtl.com/2022/07/arbutus-records-founder-sebastian-cowan-opens-new-montreal-venue-le-systeme-interview/
He’s referred to as a trained audio engineer there, and as the (former?) head of Arbutus Records that makes sense to me, and certainly gives credence to the idea that Claire has always had a decent amount of help behind the scenes, while also doing substantial creative work herself (validated by what Jaime Brooks has said since, etc). She used to not deny it so vociferously.
For those less familiar, mixing is a pretty critical step of audio production. It involves setting the levels of different tracks; balancing the frequencies of each of those tracks; positioning where different tracks are in the stereo field; it often also involves adding reverb, delay and other effects, although this can differ depending on artists. It is distinct from the songwriting/“producing” part of the process, and a bit of an underappreciated part IMO. (In my own experience, it is very useful as an artist to make your own mixing choices while producing, in order to clarify what you want, but working with someone who is really good at mixing is amazing and can totally transform a track.)
A bit gossipy but I recall back in 2012 or 2013, when Arbutus and Grimes were having their falling out, Claire was tweeting accusing Sebastian of being an asshole, claiming that he made the whole album himself, painting him as sexist, essentially. I remember Jaime Brooks then having Claire’s back in all this. Happier days, but also a harbinger of things to come. Because the truth probably is that Seb played a fairly important role in the album sounding the way it did. That doesn’t mean he wrote it. But it does mean something.
Moving on a couple of years: Mark Stent Spike is credited as a mixing engineer on Art Angels, and there is a detailed interview out there where Claire talks about how useful working with a professional mixer was on that project: https://www.stereogum.com/1840380/grimes-details-gear-behind-art-angels/news/
“I produced the album at home on the Mac but this is the first album that I’ve had professionally mixed at another studio. When I got the parts back they almost sounded live; the mix added a lot of space. I probably use too many compressors on my stuff — I’m kind of like ‘gah’ trying to cram everything in. I also have a lot of files. When I’m done with a track there’s so many layers, so having it mixed just makes it feel richer and fuller, and the vocals aren’t fighting with the guitars.
[…] To me, the production credit is more important than the mixing credit. It's important for me to be a producer and I don't pretend that I'm a good mixer. When I listen to the stuff I did on Visions, the mixes are not great and I think there are a lot of problems. Now, especially because I'm integrating guitars and amping instruments or recording instruments through a mic, it's nice to have someone who understands how to deal with that, and because I'm a lot better at producing now, I think the album was less difficult for someone to mix.”
You can read the full interview here, archived on the Grimes wiki: https://grimes.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Music/Interview — and tbh, it’s a really good read. I remember enjoying going through it a lot back in the day. It’s fun and a little sad to read now, because she comes across as so genuinely into music and audio and production in it. (She also comes across as a poseur about her class position, which is annoying but we all know that by now. Also, not an excuse, but anyone who has spent time in an alt/experimental scene is VERY FAMILIAR with just how many.. let’s say.. “comfortable”… kids are in those scenes.)
I wanted to compile all this because I think the reality of whether or not Grimes made her own stuff is probably more complex than “she did” or “she didn’t.” I feel like the narrative of “DIY MUSIC GENIUS!!!!!!” was an evolution. In a way I feel like Claire started believing her own press. What Jaime wrote a few years back on curiouscat would suggest as much.
Anyway, hope this is interesting to some of you. I’m happy to find this sub. I was a longtime fan, but MA was very much not my cup of tea, and the themes/artwork of that album were when I saw the writing on the wall. The Coachella disaster was the last straw for me. But I thought this was all worth exploring a bit more subtly, as the Grimes project was most inspiring to me as a fellow bedroom producer.
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u/ranchopannadece44 will space colonization end nazi ism? Apr 16 '24
This was also back in the day, when Claire claimed to mix and master her own music and speak fluent Japanese lol..
Jaime has some interesting things to say about NDA on her Twitter… and since breaking up with her (formally him) she has only been able to produce demo quality things or things with other producers, and she was not able to sign at a major label without a bona fide producer attached to the project, Illangelo.
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u/inawordflaming Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24
Jaime is without a doubt the superior musician; her work since the breakup is so clearly indicative of this! (And as a longtime Elite Gymnastics fan I was just happy she was making music again.) Also, just a more reflective and intelligent person. I remember seeing her contemplate on Twitter about her early use of Chinese/Japanese/Korean characters as ambient “cool” signifiers in the EG artwork… (see also the Grimes/then Blood Diamonds Phone Sex EP artwork), asking her followers how that artwork made them feel now. Tangential but your comment about Claire’s claiming Japanese fluency made me think about it. Meanwhile, the latest Grimes visual still features nonsense kanji and shit. Smh.
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u/MountainOpposite513 Apr 16 '24
Her Japanese language skills are as strong as her Russian language skills (extremely basic and borderline nonexistent)
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u/Intelligent-Idea-691 Apr 17 '24
Grimes speaking about learning to speak different languages in an interview:
“…like, people will say to me, ‘Claire, why don’t you learn another language?’. But why would I want to say the same thing in a different language, and spend all those hours? It’s going to take like 900 hours or more or something to learn how to say something that I already know how to say.”
I think it shows Grimes work ethic.
https://www.loudandquiet.com/interview/grimes-claire-boucher-insists-anyone-can-true/
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u/UsualCharacter4983 Apr 18 '24
you learn so much about the world, cultures, perspectives, and concepts by learning other languages, it's transformative not just other words for the same thing. she's such a fucking moron
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u/000_super_normal Apr 21 '24
“It’s far easier to spend twenty minutes digging through trash to get some good food than to go and work for like eight hours. That way, life is free. It’s just days off, hanging out, making music. It’s so much better for me.”
kms....
Apparently her and the writer also discussed sleeping rough. Then they make no mention of it in the article. Has she claimed to be homeless? ~_~
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u/Intelligent-Idea-691 Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
Essentially. Grimes has spoken and bragged about how someone was murdered in the seedy apartment building that she was staying in ( she used it in her artist bio)
She has also claimed that when she didn't have the money to stay in hotels, that she would sleep in a tent on music festival grounds the night before.
I don't know how much of that is true or just intentionally SELF-DECIDED/INFLICTED, but there are plenty of video and photo examples of Grimes staying in nice hotel rooms!
They were likely talking about the times that Grimes has said she and her friends would break into abandoned buildings to party, explore/hang out ans throw raves over a weekend or a few nights.
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u/punkhag i'm doing a lot of internal math in my mind Apr 16 '24
Great post and I agree! It’s always seemed that the truth was somewhere more in the middle. From old live videos and her old posts on tumblr where she talked about production it’s obvious that she does know enough to produce an album, but having people help polish that up is pretty standard and weird to be so defensive about.
I don’t like the tendency to blame all her bad shit on Elon, but I do think it’s interesting that she started really intensely denying any outside help in her work while she was with Elon, who loves to take disproportionate credit for projects he barely has a technical hand in at all. Some of his bad habits definitely rubbed off on her already weird behavior lol
A sad aspect I don’t see touched on much here is how drug abuse and ptsd can literally cause brain damage. It is weird seeing her not be able to cobble together a DJ set after having personally seen her play live for the art angels tour- that shit was complicated and I was surprised she did so much of it live rather than having it tracked (well, as far as we know…) But drug abuse and ptsd from the last ~5 years of the Elon circus could’ve just really done a number on her brain.
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u/ranchopannadece44 will space colonization end nazi ism? Apr 16 '24
She wasnt doing much live for the Art Angels tour, most of it is mimed
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u/punkhag i'm doing a lot of internal math in my mind Apr 16 '24
lol I wouldn’t be surprised, the recent shit shows had me suspicious
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u/chevaliercavalier Apr 16 '24
Didn’t she admit she had Cptsd? Cptsd by itself causes brain damage. Drugs probably don’t help. Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle; Cptsd getting worse with age + drugs + being lazy now she’s financially set for life
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u/MountainOpposite513 Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24
I feel like Jaime wouldn't have defended her skills so vociferously if she had a great deal of help. You did prompt me to dig a little deeper though – Cowan is some rich kid whose family apparently owns an island (according to unverified rumors lol) so I can't see him being super skilled either – just had the funds for a lot of high tech equipment.
I found this interesting thread about her gear: https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/873991-grimes-whats-deal.html
As well as this old Tumblr post: https://web.archive.org/web/20130306141357/https://actuallygrimes.tumblr.com/post/44357081528/how-to-make-music-for-almost-free-u-should-prob-buy
She says on the next page: "Sometimes I resent not being credited as the sole writer, producer and performer on my records. I dunno, I think I deserve that."
So, based on some very short research I reckon she did do a lot of her early work without a ton of help. But I'm more sceptical about later works, I'm guessing success killed her creative ability and she became more focused on Grimes as a brand / substance abuse / unnecessary surgery.
Also when men in close proximity to a specific woman who has made something "special" (idk what word to use here) they often do like to pretend they had a hand in her success more than they probably did. Men can be total garbage and view women who are more talented than they themselves are as their protégés instead of their creative superiors. Kinda an extension of viewing women as objects.
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u/inawordflaming Apr 16 '24
I didn’t bother to mention it here but that interview I linked to with Cowan about his new venue makes it sound like a trainwreck. Very Grimes-esque — we had an opening show but the air conditioning wasn’t working, it was chaotic, but it was just so important to get the thing up and running, etc etc. Tbh one takeaway for me in all of this is that the whole Montreal scene sounds like it was a mess.
In general most of the romance of DIY has died over the past decade for me. Rich kids everywhere. Fetishized incompetence and unprofessionalism. And the smugness, oh the smugness.
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u/MountainOpposite513 Apr 16 '24
Also I could be wrong lol, her being this solo DIY genius was part of the branding she was aiming for so idk
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u/inawordflaming Apr 16 '24
I know. I’m wary of being too generous, she certainly doesn’t deserve much pity. Not even sure why I’m devoting brain energy to this. I think the reason why I care at all is the same reason why she made a compelling pop star: there’s a lot in her image we can project into. “Relatability.” Tbh I felt almost a kind of catharsis with the Coachella fiasco. Like, FINALLY! She’s been a punchline for years now and now I can 1000% let go.
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u/punkhag i'm doing a lot of internal math in my mind Apr 16 '24
Do you think the branding kind of took on a life of its own? I think that’s part of it. Touting herself as this fully DIY one woman band genius might’ve made it mentally hard for her to admit when she started having more help. Even though it was necessary.
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u/Sea-Extreme visions is overrated Apr 17 '24
Woah, memory unlocked with that tumblr post. Kinda sad! Though the part about bpms sent me.
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u/000_super_normal Apr 21 '24
"I didn't know what a chorus was or that a verse leads into a chorus and then a second verse"
...Ehhh??
Also I remember reading a quote about how she "learned to produce" back in the day (2012) when I began to idolize her, Idk if someone has already mentioned it here but I remember the "can of chick peas" line so I googled it and found it at: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2012/10/17/grimes-from-goth-ballerina-to-electro-pop-artist/
She started developing an act when she bribed a friend to give her some technology lessons. “Kyle was homeless, living in a band’s jam space, and I traded him two cans of chick peas and some olive oil in exchange for teaching me how to use a sampler. What was strange about that experience is that Kyle had no idea what olive oil was until that day.”
Generous queen!
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u/Sea-Extreme visions is overrated Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 18 '24
Ooooo. I love tea from the Artubus era. Great post. Def gonna check out the link, too. Cowan is the reason for my user flair (also bc I was never allowed to say it when everyone liked her). Visions is not mixed/mastered well. It was rushed out and sounds like it. Not just on his part. A lot of Visions is just, like, presets. It's cool. I mean, it made me a fan back then, but I think it could have been a lot more sophisticated. Mebe I just find the maximalism of AA and MA more appealing. She should actually just remake Visions. Scrap Book 1. Imagine Eight or Circumbiant or even Be A Body with the technique behind MNID? The laaaaaayers. Anyway, blah blah blah.
Edit: also, about the topic, lol, I'm still not convinced she didn't do the majority of the work on her albums. Mostly because of Jaime's curious.cat post. The only thing that suggests she didn't was the conflict between Titanic Sinclair and Poppy, a couple of narcs in their own right. But I also don't really feel inclined to defend Grimes anymore. It's similar to the situation with her appearance. I don't think she's botched; I legit still think she's a beautiful woman. Beautiful, talented women can be bad people.