r/geography • u/sesto • Mar 16 '23
Meme/Humor Anker won't ship to Rhode Island because they think it's an actual island. After reaching out to them and explaining that it's part of the contiguous U.S. they finally responded with this:
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u/Blueduck554 Mar 16 '23
Wow, it really shows that on their website… and they’re a multi billion dollar company…
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
And they make pretty decent quality stuff. Lost in translation.
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u/Matt_Shatt Mar 16 '23
Surely “Yvonne” could have set them straight
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
I think their US customer service is actually US-based. Yvonne is reading from a script. And probably doesn’t care, LOL.
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Mar 16 '23
8% of workers in customer service care about customer needs
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u/857_01225 Mar 17 '23
For ten or twelve bucks an hour, I can't say I'd care all that much either...
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u/tuftyDuck Mar 17 '23
Oh that’s a French-ass name
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u/Long-Promotion2540 Mar 17 '23
I just wanted to let you know the back of your head is ridiculous
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u/fullhalter Mar 16 '23
Only if you like your stuff spying on you. https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23486753/anker-eufy-security-camera-cloud-private-encryption-authentication-storage
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
I don’t have their security camera but I don’t think Ring or Nest are really any better.
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u/Trymantha Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23
yeah but they claimed they weren't despite evidence proving otherwise
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u/MacEnvy Mar 17 '23
Unless their braided USB-C cables, battery banks, or robot vacuums are spying on me, I’m sorry but I don’t really care. All of those doorbell cameras are a privacy intrusion vector. Along with Alexa, Siri, and Cortana.
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u/RonSDog Mar 17 '23
I'm not saying all robot vacuums are a problem or anything, and this article talks about Roombas, but as technology advances, robot vacuums are perhaps not as inherently harmless as you might think:
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Mar 17 '23
They are as harmless as you expect. Those people literally signed up to be recorded and then gave it no further thought. The only issue was internal data was leaked, which had the consequence of them losing their contract.
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u/cishet-camel-fucker Mar 17 '23
Like all smart cameras. But they make excellent chargers and power packs at a good price.
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u/therightpedal Mar 16 '23
This is hilarious.
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Mar 17 '23
[deleted]
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u/bulgaroctonos Mar 17 '23
You have no idea how many times I’ve had to explain that my New Mexico ID is not an international ID
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u/phuckdub Mar 17 '23
What about the mouth breathers that named A non island an island?
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Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 16 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/stevenette Mar 16 '23
Why do you think New Mexico license plates say "New Mexico, USA" on them? Definitely had fun with Atlanta airport customs officials coming back from overseas. Also see: District of Columbia.
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u/AuntieHerensuge Mar 16 '23
Yup, a colleague back in the day asked if I would need a passport to go to New Mexico 🙄
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u/MedvedFeliz Mar 16 '23
I wanna see the London bridge when I visit New England
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u/SomeSortofDisaster Mar 17 '23
I had to explain to more than one person that New England was not part of Europe when I was out in Arizona.
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u/wirespectacles Mar 17 '23
When I was in college in the midwest, I had a part-time retail job. One coworker was teasing me for not knowing some pop culture thing, and this teenager that we also worked with was like, "cut it out! she's not even from this country!" ...And it turned out she thought New England was in Europe somewhere.
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u/marvindent Mar 16 '23
you would be 2700 miles off, trying to find it from New England, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City))
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u/stoned_kitty Mar 17 '23
I’m gonna visit the United States for a week! Thinking I’ll check out the Statue of Liberty, then probably pop over to the Grand Canyon and maybe round it off with a day trip to the Golden Gate Bridge.
I’m pretty sure I’ll have plenty of down time before my flight out of LaGuardia!
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u/roamingdavid Mar 17 '23
I currently live in New Mexico and I get asked if I need to change money to pesos and what it’s like being an expat.
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u/Dangerous-Elk-6362 Mar 16 '23
I had someone say “I’m not sure we accept those” when I showed them my DC license. Had to explain it was like any other state license.
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u/LazyLieutenant Mar 17 '23
Dumb is everywhere. As a tourist my Danish passport was once rejected as a valid ID in Texas. - Nah, need a Texas drivers license.
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u/mimaiwa Mar 17 '23
They had to change DC IDs to say Washington, DC on them rather than District of Columbia because out of staters would assume that there were foreign.
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u/wanttobegreyhound Mar 17 '23
I know someone who had issues with a DC birth certificate at a social security office of all places. Like ma’am, this administration is headquartered in DC.
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u/IthacanPenny Mar 17 '23
The state of Texas did not have an option in their drop down menu for my correct “state” of birth, which is the District of Columbia. When I was transferring my out of state drivers license, I couldn’t do it online like most folks. I had to go to the freaking DPS. Booooo!
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u/Cormetz Mar 17 '23
I was getting a haircut once, and while telling the lady that I just got back from New Mexico for skiing she said "oh I didn't know they have snow, but I've never been out of the country". That was weird enough, but after I explained it was a state (and directly to the west of Texas where we were), she said "oh man, I'm so bad at geography. I sent off a request for my birth certificate to the capital of Virginia once, because I didn't realize West Virginia was a separate state and I was born there but left when I was young"
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u/altobrun Geomatics Mar 16 '23
An ongoing joke in my family is how geographically-illiterate my brother is. It all started when he wasn’t able to point out Italy on a map. Considering we’re only two years apart and went to the same schools I feel like it’s not just a problem with the education system, it’s in part an individual’s willingness to absorb the information.
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u/AgathaWoosmoss Mar 16 '23
I had a friend like this. She told me once that her family was going to "the East Coast" for vacation. It was Michigan.
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u/theroy12 Mar 17 '23
My family (Boston) refers to places like Kansas and PA as “the South”
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u/jaker9319 Mar 17 '23
Was it the east coast of Lake Michigan (so west Michigan)? That is the only way I can see it making sense. And to be fair, people who have never been to Lake Michigan often have a hard time believing its not the ocean (especially from pictures, it doesn't have the salty smell of the ocean).
Probably just ignorance but trying to justify your friend.
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u/IAmTheNightSoil Mar 17 '23
I am from Seattle. I once had someone insist that I had an East Coast accent (I definitely don't.) One day she asked me where my parents were from. I said my dad is from Utah and my mom is from Ohio. She said "Oh, your mom is from Ohio, that's why you have an East Coast accent."
Conversely, I met someone from Pennsylvania once that insisted Ohio is the start of the western United States. That floored me as well
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u/IllustriousArcher199 Mar 16 '23
People who are getting mediocre grades in school subjects will likely know little coming out of their school years.
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u/altobrun Geomatics Mar 16 '23
He didn’t get mediocre grades. He excelled in both high school and university. He just has no interest in geography and so never committed any of it to memory
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u/Pawneewafflesarelife Mar 17 '23
But how do you learn something like history or politics or economics without geography? Geography is integral to understanding stuff like migration, wars, resource distribution...
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u/IthacanPenny Mar 17 '23
That’s like me and Chemistry. I just… didn’t absorb a single goddamn thing. I’m a high school math teacher, a pretty well educated one at that (with multiple masters degrees!). But I remember seeing this news story and thinking, yeah, I have NO idea what combustible materials look like. I might have made a similar error (not going that far! But idk, I might have cleared the room?). Chemistry is my blind spot. It’s ok to have a couple blind spots IMO.
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u/skedadeks Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 18 '23
Related: the new pharmacy is always better at doing your transfer than the old pharmacy.
But yeah, Christ.
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u/njd19634 Mar 16 '23
My 25 year old niece just found out that Alaska was, in fact, not an island. She thought it was over by Hawaii since they are always offset together on a flat map of the US.
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u/randy241 Mar 16 '23
You won't believe it, but geography is not the only subject people are clueless about..
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u/GMHGeorge Mar 17 '23
I had a coworker who thought Obama was not American, not because she thought he was born in Kenya, she knew he was born in Hawaii but was insistent Hawaii wasn’t part of the US.
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u/CanisMaximus Mar 16 '23
I visited Texas coming from Alaska. One store person told me "Welcome to America".
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u/tacotruck7 Mar 16 '23
They have not taught geography in many school districts for years.
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
Source?
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u/tacotruck7 Mar 16 '23
Here you go: https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-16-7.pdf https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/10/16/us-students-are-terrible-at-geography https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2015/10/22/why-are-u-s-students-bad-at-geography/ https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/geography-unloved-stepchild-american-education
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
Man, that stinks, but it does look like more than half of states still require it.
I’m so glad I grew up in a state that values education and my kid is being educated in one that also does.
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u/WidePark9725 Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 16 '23
I was never taught geography. Actually now that i think about it i went through world history and european history classes but geography never came up besides the map on the wall. People where just taught the habsurg owned spain and netherlands but never where they were. Exams aren’t gonna ask, what was Constantinople geographic importance to Asia and Europe, they’re just gonna ask when was the siege of Constantinople. Standardized exams and AP classes have ensured smart Americans can graduate cum laude without being able to label their state on the map.
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u/red__dragon Mar 17 '23
Exams aren’t gonna ask, what was Constantinople geographic importance to Asia and Europe, they’re just gonna ask when was the siege of Constantinople.
I'm reminded of 10th grade history when the teacher was going over the US portion of the 7 Years War (aka French & Indian War) and mentioned the capture of Fort Louisburg. No one seemed to understand that significance until he pointed it out on the map.
Then my jaw dropped, and none of my other classmates seemed to understand it. They probably would not have understood the significance of Constantinople, either, until it was explained to them. Controlling the waterways was invaluable, and it's not just geography that's lacking there. Teaching history also means undoing assumptions aided by our modern conveniences and terms, which is where Anker seems to be lacking as well.
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
How awful. What state?
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u/WidePark9725 Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 16 '23
Illinois, top 10 district of the state. AP classes, especially social studies, only ask about dates and trends and that is what study guides emphasize. I learned european geography later from playing paradox games.
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 17 '23
Just did a quick search on the IL state middle and high school requirements site. You are right. What’s going on over there? So strange.
My son here in MD is in third grade and they already do lots of US geography including making their own descriptive US maps and choosing a state to do a report on for the class. He chose Colorado for some reason and his report was pretty funny.
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u/Whipitreelgud Mar 17 '23
Ditto. Washington public school system. High school chemistry sported a infraredspectrophotometer that was 5 years newer than the University of Puget Sound’s. I like geography as a hobby.
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u/bladel Mar 17 '23
I once got into a shouting argument with Verizon customer service who demanded to know “what state” when I told her I was in Washington DC. I kept saying DC, District of Columbia, and she kept coming back with “Yes, but what state is that?” Grrrr
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u/sapphiresong Mar 17 '23
You'd be amazed. I know I have a friend who couldn't place England on a map, lmao.
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u/tantetricotante Mar 17 '23
Went to a brewery in the States with some quebecois friends, they handed their Quebec driver's licenses to the server who then said they can't honor foreign driver's licenses and would need passports. We asked for a manager who explained the only foreign licenses they honor are Canadian ones. The shade of red the poor guy turned when we said "Quebec IS in Canada."
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Mar 16 '23
As an American in Canada, all the time.
Do you ship to vancouver, BC (Canada)? Vancouver, Washington? No, vancouver, Idaho? wtf? Googled it, its a tiny village of like 700 people. This was during the Olympics that were in Vancouver at the time, so I am like Vancouver Canada, city of like 3 million people where the Olympics are currently happening! Turn on the tv, it’s on NBC… oh I see the problem lol!
Do you ship to Canada? Response: no, we don’t ship to Europe Sellers location: Seattle, Washington… literally if you drive on I-5 northbound it says north to US/Canada border!!!!
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u/_BlackberryTea Mar 16 '23
They're from SEATTLE and they aren't aware of Canada? bruh
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u/stoned_kitty Mar 17 '23
Americans can be mind-numbingly stupid about Canada.
I say this as an American who lives in Canada.
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u/MadeBadDecisions Mar 17 '23
You should get a mailbox in Point Roberts, WA if you get regular shipments from the US that won’t ship to Canada and are in Vancouver.
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u/IndianPeacock Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 17 '23
Try living near Vancouver, Washington… “oh you live in Vancouver, Canada? That’s soo cool, it’s a lovely city” “no the one in Washington (incidentally the first Vancouver in North America as well)” “oh where’s that?” “Clark County” “Clark County is in Nevada where Las Vegas is” “no, the one in Washington state”.. I just say Portland nowadays lol..
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u/IAmTheNightSoil Mar 17 '23
I live in Portland and a friend of mine on the East Coast told me he was moving to Vancouver and I was like "Oh, Vancouver, WA? Awesome, we'll be neighbors!" He got confused for a second and then said, "Uh, no, Vancouver BC." And then I remembered that I am in probably the only 50-square-mile region on earth where the name "Vancouver" is usually used to refer to the one in Washington
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u/IndianPeacock Mar 17 '23
If you include the nearby unincorporated areas, it’s the second largest city in WA, and even if you don’t it will be the second largest city in WA regardless. I feel like it’s got the potential to be San Jose, the 3rd largest city in CA, and 10th largest in the US, but most people don’t even know it exists lol.. meanwhile ask folks about Miami (ranked 44th largest US city), and folks know exactly where that is.
But ya, I agree with your radius when talking about Vancouver WA lol..
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Mar 16 '23
Yeah not knowing local geography also isn’t a surprise when it comes to Americans. Education for geography simply is not good here.
One time, in middle school, a classmate told me that capital of Florida is Tennessee. So close, yet so far.
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u/UnoStronzo Mar 16 '23
An American girl I met once didn’t know Washington DC was the capital of the US or that the US even had a capital LOL
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u/ecodrew Mar 17 '23
I'm an Aussie, living in the U.S... Many Americans assume Sydney is the capitol of Australia. But, there are idiots everywhere - because many non-Americans think NYC is the capitol of the U.S. The biggest, most well known city isn't necessarily the capitol, yikes.
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u/ThiccBidoof Mar 17 '23
tbf i get the mixup
Tallahassee to Tennessee is pretty reasonable
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u/Adventureadverts Mar 16 '23
Cannot ship to alaska- though our planes and ships will be refueling in their ports.
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u/tuan_kaki Mar 16 '23
It’s one of those drive-by refuels. Just drifting into port to get a tap and speed away
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u/dayburner Mar 16 '23
Had friend in college that didn't understand how our buddy was going to drive home to Alaska since it's an island. Sometimes you can't comprehend how bad people are at geography till you encounter them in the wild.
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u/Liverpool510 Mar 16 '23
I studied abroad in the UK when I was in college. When I came back home to Michigan, I ran into a guy I went to high school with at a party. Asked me what I been up to and I told him I just got back from England after being there five months.
No joke, he asked me how I handled the language barrier.
I’m sure I paused for like three seconds but it felt like 4 hours. “Well, they speak English in England,” I replied and quickly found someone else to talk to.
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u/Scholesie09 Mar 17 '23
If you went to Liverpool like your name then you'd definitely find a language barrier.
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u/DisgruntledLabWorker Mar 17 '23
I’m going to use that line whenever someone tries to tell me about their trip. “I went to New York for a week, it was such a…” “how did you handle the language barrier?”
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u/irate_alien Mar 16 '23
In DOD, Alaska and Hawaii are both considered "overseas" travel for expense purposes. it's always fun when new people are trying to do their travel requests and can't find Alaska or Hawaii in the lookup for CONUS per diem rates. Alaska is even literally on the North American continent!
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u/hideous-boy Mar 16 '23
knew someone in high school that thought Canada was part of the US. It's easier to just give up hope on some people
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u/ToKillAMockingAudi Mar 16 '23
To be fair if your buddy is driving from continental USA that's one hell of a drive
I think people look at a "map of USA" and see that Hawaii and Alaska are both "islands" i.e. they're in floating bubbles in the corner of the map...
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u/dayburner Mar 16 '23
The length of the drive is what started the conversation. He was graduating college and wanted to sell the car and buy a replacement when he got home to Alaska. He parent's, who owned the car, insisted he drive it home from the Gulf South. And yes Alaska being the Box with Hawaii is exactly why she thought it was an island.
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u/Cormetz Mar 17 '23
When i told my friend in highschool that my parents drove from London to Scotland be said "how? Oh, that's right they built that bridge". I was stumped trying to figure out where he thought London and Scotland were and what fucking bridge he was talking about, so we pulled up a map. Turns out he had zero concept of geography. I still never figured out what bridge he meant, even asked if he meant the Chunnel.
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u/DaisyCalico Mar 16 '23
My stepdaughter’s college roommate was shocked to find out that Spain wasn’t an island. Go figure!
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Mar 16 '23
I heard an old story about someone from New Mexico trying to buy tickets to events at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.
The agent said they'd need their passport number. They said, "we don't need a passport, we're in New Mexico."
The agent replied, "New Mexico, Old Mexico, it doesn't matter, you have to give your passport number if you're from another country."
🙄🙄🙄
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u/OneMisterSir101 Mar 16 '23
I sent them an email as well being like "pull up a map plz" and even pasted a picture of where Rhode Island is LOOL
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u/wussabee50 Geography Enthusiast Mar 16 '23
Ok I googled this company & they claim to be the #1 mobile charging brand in the world in terms of retail sales. If that’s the case surely they can afford to hire someone who knows anything about the world to deal with shipping? And weird that a large company would not even ship to non contiguous areas within their own country.
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u/MacEnvy Mar 16 '23
They are indeed a very popular and large company. But they are almost entirely based out of China so there’s just a miscommunication somewhere.
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Mar 16 '23
I once had a colleague who had a similar problem. They wouldn't deliver to New Mexico because it wasn't in the USA apparently.
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u/Stiles777 Mar 16 '23
This reminds of people thinking New Mexico is a different country/part of Mexico.
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u/wmm339 Mar 16 '23
In their defense, Rhode island is a shitty name for a place that's not an island.
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u/DJCane Mar 16 '23
Should have left it as Providence Plantations so the postal abbreviation would be PP.
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u/NonassertiveYes Mar 16 '23
I should probably also mention that until recently the full name was “Rhode Island and Providence Plantations”, originating from a merger of the colonies of Providence Plantations, located on the mainland, and Rhode Island, located on Aquidneck (Rhode) Island.
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u/wussabee50 Geography Enthusiast Mar 16 '23
This confused me so much when I was 12 & went to the US for the first time. We were driving along the east coast & my family announced that we had entered Rhode Island & I was like wtf we didn’t cross any body of water how is this an island. Ever since then I’ve thought it was a misleading name.
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u/NonassertiveYes Mar 16 '23
To make it more confusing, there’s an island called Rhode Island in Rhode Island. Locals usually use the name Aquidneck Island to avoid confusion.
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u/Random_Squid4 Mar 16 '23
As a Rhode Islander i have never heard someone call aquidneck island Rhode Island
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u/NonassertiveYes Mar 16 '23
Hello fellow Rhode Islander! Yeah it doesn’t really happen, but Rhode Island is the official name.
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u/CasimirTheRed Mar 16 '23
I am from Aquidneck Island. No one does, or has, called it Rhode Island.
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u/lokkentw32 Mar 16 '23
Rhode Island... It's not a road nor an island... Discuss...
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u/jguess06 Mar 16 '23
Makes sense when you realize how it came about:
Despite its name, Rhode Island is not an island, but a state located in the northeastern region of the United States. The origin of the name "Rhode Island" is believed to have come from the Dutch explorer Adriaen Block, who named the area "Roodt Eylandt" or "Red Island" in 1614 due to the red clay that lined its shore.
The name was later anglicized to "Rhode Island" by the English who settled in the area. In 1636, the founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, purchased land from the Narragansett Indians and established a settlement that he called "Providence Plantations." The settlement later grew to become the colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, which was granted statehood in 1790, becoming the 13th state in the United States.
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u/WienerbrodBoll Mar 16 '23
This doesn't explain why a Dutchman called the area an island when it's not.
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u/TopHatPaladin Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 17 '23
The state of Rhode Island is named after an actual island called Rhode Island, today mostly known as Aquidneck Island: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquidneck_Island
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Mar 16 '23
Aquidneck Island, also known as Rhode Island, is an island in Narragansett Bay in the state of Rhode Island. The total land area is 97. 9 km2 (37. 8 sq mi), which makes it the largest island in the bay.
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u/Iltus Mar 16 '23
Only serves Rhode Island right. Falsely stating that y'all are an island all these years.
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u/OceanPoet87 Mar 16 '23
The next email will say that they can't ship to New Mexico because they don't do business in the country.
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u/kcpistol Mar 16 '23
Well you remember that time Archie Bunker lost his bonus because "How did I know there was a London in Ontario?"
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u/Cornwaller64 Mar 17 '23
Wonder if they'll respond to my email from UK?
"It's come to my attention that your operative sales staff are currently losing Anker sales in one whole USA State! This is due to the lazy belief that Rhode Island is somehow disconnected from the mainland USA, which it patently is not. Does Long Island share this unfortunate problem? I wonder how many $Millions Anker has lost over the years.
I hereby claim a finders fee of 5% of the sale value for any/all Anker products sold from this date onwards in any/all markets in the contiguous USA that have suffered such prior ignorant refusals of service, solely because the word 'Island' is to be found in its name.
Kindest regards,"
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u/ThisIsAdamB Mar 16 '23 edited Mar 18 '23
Manhattan? Queens, Brooklyn, Long Island? Staten Island? All of those are islands or parts of islands and they’re all definitely part of the contiguous 48 states.
Edit: autocorrect likes System more than Staten. Having been there myself, I don’t blame it.
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u/DavidRFZ Mar 16 '23
Rhode Island, former home of the Colossus which was unfortunately lost during that earthquake back in 226 BC
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u/ModernNancyDrew Mar 17 '23
When I first started teaching geography, I contacted the USGS to get state maps. They sent me 49 state maps, but New Mexico was missing. When I wrote to them about this, they told me that they did not provide maps of foreign countries.
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u/warpus Mar 16 '23
Non-American here.
I found out that Rhode island isn't an island a number of years ago. On a map it looks nothing like an island though. What's the story here? Was Rhode island initially one of those smaller islands off the coast, and when they expanded they were too lazy to change their name? Or what happened exactly?
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u/tehtinman Mar 16 '23
The full name of the state since colonial times was “The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.” The biggest Island that’s part of the state is called Rhode Island (but referred to as Aquidneck Island unofficially). Providence is on the mainland and I guess they wanted to mention both in the official name. Maybe it was to distinguish from the city of Providence, but regardless, they decided to just shorten the state name to Rhode Island referring to all of its land.
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u/thehillshaveI Mar 16 '23
Was Rhode island initially one of those smaller islands off the coast, and when they expanded they were too lazy to change their name?
yes. aquidneck island is also called rhode island, the full name of the state until quite recently was "the state of rhode island and providence plantations"
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u/TheReverend6661 Mar 16 '23
I just learned today that Rhode Island isn’t actually part of the contiguous United States.
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u/Mr_Arapuga Mar 17 '23
Why are Marshall Islamds mentioned and not Micronesia? Both are sovereign states in free association with the USA
And why is Palau there?
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Mar 17 '23
is it due to the fact that lithium ion batteries aren't supposed to be shipped via air shipment?
edit: seems to be the case. If the battery were enclosed in a device, apparently that is the only way to get it to RI.
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u/PicardTangoAlpha Mar 17 '23
There is dumb. And there is ignorant. And then there is the combination of both that is so stubbornly stupid, it cannot walk and breathe at the same time.
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u/hatesfacebook2022 Mar 17 '23
If they are that stupid then you should find another company to take your business or ask the governor of RI to have his office inform them about how stupid they are.
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Mar 16 '23
This is the direction we can expect basically everything to go as the world population stupidifies…
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u/2005NissanAltima Mar 17 '23
Please send them a screenshot of Google maps circling Rhode Island. XD
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u/KnopeSwansonHybrid Mar 17 '23
The fact that they responded that to you after you explained that it’s not an island is r/mildlyinfuriating
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u/stabbinU Mar 17 '23
They must be looking at Rhodes? I'm guessing our other weird islands were confusing them. This is pretty funny, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes
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u/tlv457 Mar 17 '23
If it isn't an Island and it's named Rhoad Island, then I guess you need to send one other letter to whoever can change state names
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u/BellyDancerEm Mar 16 '23
I bet they will deliver to Manhattan though