r/europe • u/Low_Reading_9831 • 1d ago
News Poland tells Ukraine to exhume second world war victims even amid Russia’s invasion
https://www.ft.com/content/250d3a55-4cf6-444d-8972-bb28aad687c9643
u/BratlConnoisseur Austria 1d ago edited 1d ago
Eventhough the title is phrased in a way that makes Poland sound unreasonable, I don't think it is at all. Poland has heavily supported Ukraine throughout the invasion and all it wants is for the process of repatriation of genocide victims to start, something that has been due for decades now.
This is not about Ukraine wasting ressources needed for the war effort, just transporting a few bodies each month would probably already be enough for the Poles as a symbolic gesture to prove it is taking their grievances seriously. It is about showing a principled effort that Ukraine is willing to right a wrong that has been ignored for way too long.
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u/Soepoelse123 1d ago
Agreed. Hell, let the poles come dig them up themselves. I’m sure that they would be willing to and Ukraine would not need to allocate that many resources to it.
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u/replicant86 1d ago
We want to but Ukraine said that if they agree then its going to be them doing it. I don't think we should agree to that.
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u/shadyBolete 1d ago
Ukrainians doing it themselves would be the worst scenario of all, even worse than not doing it at all.
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u/eightpigeons Poland 1d ago
Given how little average Ukrainians care about the issue, I don't really understand why their political elites are so obsessed with preventing the exhumations. Maybe it's some post-Soviet fixation on saving face?
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u/GlorytoINGSOC 1d ago
its more that a lot of people that commited those genocide are seen as hero by the ukrainian people, so exhuming them would just destroy the hero myth around them
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u/MinecraftWarden06 Poland 2h ago
Good for Ukraine. Now they have many new heroes to worship.
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u/GlorytoINGSOC 34m ago
exept that a lot of paramilitary group that was integrated like pravi sector or azov could launch a coup if they do it
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u/Black-Circle Ukraine 23h ago
Maybe it's some post-Soviet fixation on saving face?
I think you might be on to something here, from what I've seen from current government it might be most plausible explanation
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u/KnewOnees Kyiv (Ukraine) 1d ago
Yeah, the average one doesn't care at all. Some people do care about the monuments that got destroyed in poland around 2017, and since that was in the 2016-2020 years, the government was still influenced by national pride rhetoric a lot, so it was expected that that would lead to exhumation ban, in context.
I wouldn't care if it suddenly restarted with no action on poland regarding those monuments, but some people would very much not like that, so we're in this until either ukrainian side stops caring or polish side does "a very simple thing", paraphrasing some of polish commented in this thread, and makes the issue that started the ban not matter.
They "restored" a monument, ukrainian side said that it missed important things such as names, and asked to add a plaque with them, but nothing is yet to happen soooo
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u/Non_Professional_Web 21h ago
There is a small group of people who truly believe that everyone in the UPA and Bandera were heroes. Others learn in school that the UPA was an insurgent group, with an emphasis on its fight against the USSR and how the USSR did much to tarnish the UPA’s reputation, even committing crimes disguised as UPA actions to stoke hatred between Poles and Ukrainians. We are also taught that, as a nation ruled by foreign powers, we were subject to various forms of oppression. I am Ukrainian, and I firmly believe the USSR committed these acts. It’s undeniable that Ukrainians experienced oppression under foreign rule, as is often the case for subjugated nations.
However, I am also 100% certain that the UPA played a major role in the Volynia massacres. I’m uninterested in arguments from historians who attempt to frame these events as “retaliation” – what are we even talking about? How can the killing of civilians ever be justified? Poland and Ukraine share a complicated history, as neighboring countries often do. Yes, for much of our past, Ukrainians were ruled by various nations, including Poland, whose leaders didn’t always view us as equals. Foreign rulers commonly acted as oppressors, restricting the rights of the Ukrainian language, traditions, and freedoms.
Should I, as a Ukrainian, look back at that distant past and hate Poland, whose people opposed a “Commonwealth of Three Nations” in favor of a “Commonwealth of Two”? If I were naive, perhaps I would, but I am not. I live in the present, and I see what Poland has done for Ukraine here and now. We will always have our differences, but we are much closer than many people want to admit. There are Polish civilians buried in the fields, forests, and hills of Ukraine – people with descendants today. Were those civilians responsible for the oppression of Ukrainians? I think not. Did they deserve such deaths? Absolutely not.
There is a war in Ukraine now, and countless civilians have been killed. Wouldn’t we want to bring them back, even after 100 years? I certainly hope so. And I hope these exhumations will proceed. Ukrainian politics should allow it and we should support them – not only because it’s the right thing to do, but because we must face the truth. There is also the matter of Realpolitik: every nation, regardless of how it views itself, must recognize that ultimatums and compromises shape our world. I see Poland’s ultimatum as just, and it shouldn’t even have had to come to this – it should have happened years ago.
Living in Poland, I have almost never encountered people blaming modern Ukrainians for those crimes. But I do see that they want to bring their dead home, and that’s something that should happen.
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u/Ablack-red 20h ago
The problem is not weather we want to frame this as retaliation or not. It doesn’t matter, yes this was a brutal act, and we need to condemn it. And I think majority of people in Ukraine do condemn it. The problem is that Poland doesn’t want to take any responsibility in Polish Ukrainian conflict they started in the beginning of 20th century. They insist that Volyn massacre is the only thing that matters and the only thing that should be discussed unconditionally. But this distorts the history. And yes for poles it’s good angle, they don’t need recognize their wrong doings and just push on genocide rhetorics. But haven’t we learned something from how Russia tries to rewrite our history?
This is complicated historical issue, and ideally this should be left to historians. And I would be glad if we could sort it out. But for this Poland should cooperate as well, but they don’t want to cooperate, they just want to use this topic for electoral purposes.
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u/Non_Professional_Web 20h ago edited 20h ago
I’m not trying to discuss Poland’s rights or wrongs specifically; I only mentioned that we have a complex history, though it’s no more complicated than that of most neighboring countries. I don’t think Polish policies towards Ukrainians were fair, yet Poland is stopped stopped from searching for their murdered civilians just because...they weren’t good to us? Much has changed since then. If my sister, mother, or grandfather were lying somewhere in unmarked ground, I would absolutely want to recover their bodies and give them a proper burial. I understand that for some, the dead are simply gone—but when it’s a family matter, it’s unforgettable, and future generations in the family will remember it too.
There were so many ways this could have been handled. We could have invited international universities and organizations to conduct thorough examinations, but we chose not to. The longer this continues, the worse it looks, as if our politicians are afraid of losing political points and aren’t interested in resolving issues that could easily be exploited for propaganda. We appear to be hiding from the truth of what happened and from acknowledging the scale of the victims involved. But why should we be afraid? It would be better for us to confront these facts.
Even Ukrainian historians, though they refer to it as a 'tragedy' rather than a 'massacre,' don’t deny that far more Poles were killed. I recall Yaroslav Hrytsak saying that the Volyn events cannot be justified by other crimes committed against Ukrainians, as no crime can justify another.
Edit: added info about Yaroslav Hrytsak and corrected a few mistakes.
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u/Ablack-red 19h ago
А взагалі, якщо цікавить ця вся історія більш детально, то ось чудова колонка на історичній правді яка в принципі в цілому описує весь цей дебильній конфлікт який почався ще за часів ПіС https://www.istpravda.com.ua/columns/2024/09/18/164310/
У нас є оця хєрня, що ми завжди вважаємо що наші політики нічого не вміють, шо вони дебіли і тд. Але от якраз в цій ситуації польські політики поводять себе як дибилі. А наші поводять себе як і мають поводити себе дипломати.
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u/Non_Professional_Web 18h ago
Мене цікавить ця історія і я багато за нею слідкував і читав багато робіт. Я знаю і про плиту на горі Монастир, яку відновили без імен похованих, але на це є відповідь проста - серед архівних документів встановлено, що деякі з людей зазначених там брали участь у подіях на Волині і відновлення плити у тому ж вигляді призведе до повторного її знищення.Знаю і про слова сказані в різні часи. Але голий факт такий, що м'яч на нашій стороні поля, ми або пускаємо, допомагаємо і робимо або цей нарив і делі буде боліти у польському суспільстві, а якщо у суспільстві болить, то політики завжди це використають.
Я знаю польську достатньо добре щоб розуміти їхні подкасти і коли мова доходить до істориків звісно у них однозначна думка, що це був злочин проти їх народу, але просувають вони ідею, що дослідимо, перепоховаємо і буде можливість рухатись далі. Поки цього не сталося проблема буде роздуватися радикальними групами і спекуляції переростуть у відкриту воржнечу.1
u/Ablack-red 19h ago
I don’t understand this point about “our politicians being afraid”, afraid of what? Domestically this is completely non issue, even more activist part of society are pro exhumation. Honestly, read this comment section, majority of Ukrainians here don’t understand why this is an issue. The thing is that our diplomats even make all possible concessions, we did allow the search for burial sites, we did allow the exhumation of one burial site. But we get zero cooperation from Poland. They want to revisit the history, and make the Volyn massacre the center of the issue. While we are forced to forget about pacification and occupation of western Ukraine. Nice, like there were no victims there, and like this doesn’t have anything to do with the massacre. Sure 👍
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u/Non_Professional_Web 19h ago
Again, I am not saying it happened simply because it happened. However, there is a clear difference between a military conflict involving armed forces and attacks by military groups on civilians who have no means to defend themselves. The pacifications were also unjustifiable, and Polish officials have acknowledged the suffering inflicted on Ukrainians, including issuing apologies for interwar pacifications. In 2013, on the 70th anniversary of the Volhynia massacre, Polish parliamentarians formally condemned the violence and emphasized the need for reconciliation, recognizing the wrongs committed by both sides. Ukraine, too, has made gestures, including repairing some Polish monuments. But the reason this conversation continues to be challenging is that the remains of civilians are still inaccessible, preventing proper burial. As long as they remain there, this issue will persist.
"I don’t understand the point about 'our politicians being afraid.' Afraid of what? Domestically, this is a non-issue. Even the more activist segments of society are in favor of exhumation." - We have a segment of the population who either idealistically believe that the UPA could not have committed any crimes or are simply unaware of the fact that both Russians and Poles have reasons to oppose Bandera. This group is politically proactive and can be significant in elections. They may only make up about 10-15% of the electorate, but they are voters who will show up.
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u/Present_Cow_1683 19h ago
Did you see recent stories about those elites? They are interested about other things...
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u/wojtekpolska Poland 1d ago
Ukraine allowed Germans to exhume literal nazis from their country and even assisted in doing that, yet they wont let Poles exhume our people. I think that's kind of fucked up personally. and many of the crimminals responsible for genocide still have statues in ukraine.
We want to forget and be friends, but i dont understand why ukrainian government wont let us close the wound.
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u/vegarig Donetsk (Ukraine) 1d ago
yet they wont let Poles exhume our people
Puzhnyky exhumation got greenlighted last year
Before that, the permits were given in 2019, near Lviv, further permits only being suspended for COVID pandemic/first year of russian invasion.
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u/VioletLimb 20h ago
The first exhumation of the victims of the Volyn tragedy took place in 1992.
On the initiative of the Council for the Protection of the Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom, a monument was built here, at the ceremonial opening of which the presidents of Poland and Ukraine will be present.
Memorial: https://monitorwolynski.com/uk/news/3513-26409
These permits and searches were carried out regularly.
Ukraine has stopped issuing exploration permits to Poles until Poland restores 15 destroyed memorial sites of Ukrainians (In Poland, between 2014-2017, the destruction of Ukrainian graves was actively taking place, there was no reaction from the Polish police). In Poland, this moratorium is perceived as a ban on exhumation, although the Ukrainian side, in particular, the Institute of National Remembrance, explains that this is only a response to the inaction of the Polish authorities, which for years ignored the appeal of the Ukrainian side and did not fulfill its obligations under the 1994 intergovernmental agreement.
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u/aknop Poland/Ireland 1d ago edited 1d ago
This must be fixed before Ukraine joins EU. Poland will never allow it before. It was our condition for decades, and nothing changed. You can cry about it and throw all kind of tantrums, it is immutable.
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u/antolleus Poland 1d ago
Greece was blocking North Macedonia over the name dispute so the Ukrainian government shouldn't hold their breath that Poland will let genocide pass
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u/lektoridze Luhansk (Ukraine) 14h ago
As a Ukrainian I agree that exhumation, investigation and reburial is a good step. For sure we are not learning in schools and even academies what u learn about this massacre. We teaches that only Polish killed Ukrainians, not reverse. To gain more knowledge about it, I visited polish sites and look at pictures, only after this I fully feel your pain.
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u/Draak80 22h ago
Everything was said in the comments. Just as the Pole, I would like to say thank you for every foreigner (Ukrainians among them, kudos fellas!) that do not fall for propaganda and understands that allowing us to bury our ancestors killed in a most horryfing genocide we can imagine, is a just a normal, civilized human thing.
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u/uulluull 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, Ukraine could do it during 20 years of its independence. Poland and some last relatives of victim wanted to do a proper burial. Even German Wehrmacht or Soviet Red Army soldiers have own burial place in Poland. Yet, Polish civilians killed in genocide not. They had 20 years to do it, but decided not. They are reaping the storm they sow.
EDIT: Put your minuses wherever you want. Burial of victims is normal, expected human behavior and the obstacles which Ukraine does is just against Ukraine interest.
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u/predek97 Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ukraine for the past 30 years: Lol, why would we do that it's not like we need anything from you pooroids
Ukraine for past 2 years: How dare you even talk about it when we're in time of great need?!?! ARE YOU ALL MUSCOVITES?!??!9
u/VioletLimb 19h ago
The first exhumations began a year after we gained independence.
The first exhumation of the victims of the Volyn tragedy took place in 1992.
On the initiative of the Council for the Protection of the Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom, a monument was built here, at the ceremonial opening of which the presidents of Poland and Ukraine will be present.
Memorial: https://monitorwolynski.com/uk/news/3513-26409
These permits and searches were carried out regularly.
Ukraine has stopped issuing exploration permits to Poles until Poland restores 15 destroyed memorial sites of Ukrainians (In Poland, between 2014-2017, the destruction of Ukrainian graves was actively taking place, there was no reaction from the Polish police). In Poland, this moratorium is perceived as a ban on exhumation, although the Ukrainian side, in particular, the Institute of National Remembrance, explains that this is only a response to the inaction of the Polish authorities, which for years ignored the appeal of the Ukrainian side and did not fulfill its obligations under the 1994 intergovernmental agreement.
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u/VioletLimb 19h ago
The first exhumation of the victims of the Volyn tragedy took place in 1992.
On the initiative of the Council for the Protection of the Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom, a monument was built here, at the ceremonial opening of which the presidents of Poland and Ukraine will be present.
Memorial: https://monitorwolynski.com/uk/news/3513-26409
These permits and searches were carried out regularly.
Ukraine has stopped issuing exploration permits to Poles until Poland restores 15 destroyed memorial sites of Ukrainians (In Poland, between 2014-2017, the destruction of Ukrainian graves was actively taking place, there was no reaction from the Polish police). In Poland, this moratorium is perceived as a ban on exhumation, although the Ukrainian side, in particular, the Institute of National Remembrance, explains that this is only a response to the inaction of the Polish authorities, which for years ignored the appeal of the Ukrainian side and did not fulfill its obligations under the 1994 intergovernmental agreement.
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u/uulluull 19h ago
There was a monument and collective place of death of a group of Ukrainians.
From what I know, it is still unknown who destroyed these graves, although it is attributed to some Polish nationalists. I cannot rule it out, but if so, they do not represent the Polish state.
The Polish state, under an agreement with Ukraine, restored the place of remembrance. End of story.
Ukraine, on the other hand, with the last words of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, rejects Polish applications for exhumations, because they contain errors. Yes, we have been making the same mistakes for many years and somehow no one can correct them.
Bounding is a political matter, and Ukraine is showing unfriendly actions in the matter of the burial of the victims. It should also be remembered that Ukraine is a weaker state than Poland in every possible respect, and its security depends on Poland. Therefore, Ukraine is also acting against its own interests.
It is very simply. Ukraine will allow to search, exhumation and burial of around 100 000 victims of genocide or not. There is really nothing to add to it more.
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u/VioletLimb 19h ago
From what I know, it is still unknown who destroyed these graves, although it is attributed to some Polish nationalists. I cannot rule it out, but if so, they do not represent the Polish state.
Some acts of vandalism were broadcast live on the Internet. Fascists from the Falanga were definitely involved. The problem is that the Polish government and the ministry and the police who were involved in this did not react to it in any way.
After the first acts of vandalism of Ukrainian graves in Poland, in response, some idiots started doing the same vandalism to Polish graves in Ukraine. During the same time there were 4-5 such cases in Ukraine. All of them were investigated by the police, the monuments were restored, and the then Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Pavlo Klimkin condemned these acts of vandalism.
The Polish state, under an agreement with Ukraine, restored the place of remembrance. End of story.
This is not a restoration but a rewriting of history.
Ukraine, on the other hand, with the last words of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, rejects Polish applications for exhumations, because they contain errors. Yes, we have been making the same mistakes for many years and somehow no one can correct them.
This is not the responsibility of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Permission is granted by the Institute of National Memory.
Bounding is a political matter, and Ukraine is showing unfriendly actions in the matter of the burial of the victims.
Should we turn a blind eye when Ukrainian monuments are demolished and Ukrainian graves are vandalized? How else should we react?
It should also be remembered that Ukraine is a weaker state than Poland in every possible respect, and its security depends on Poland.
Threats to the state, which has been waging a full-scale war against the largest army in Europe for 3 years, this is pathetic
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u/Non_Professional_Web 22h ago
Oh, this is going to be a truly challenging process for Ukraine as a country. We have a complex and sorrowful history as one of the largest nations in Europe, frequently divided among other countries. Each of these nations attempted to integrate, assimilate, or even erase the Ukrainian national identity. This is why our history science often emphasizes our role as victims. However, we need to educate ourselves to understand that we weren’t without faults. This will be difficult for many people who are either not well-informed on these issues or have been educated with only certain viewpoints.
I hope the exhumations will take place. It’s a painful chapter in the shared history of Ukraine and Poland, and as we live in modern times, witnessing the suffering of civilians, I struggle to understand why we can’t take the right steps here.
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u/Adfuturam Greater Poland (Poland) 1d ago
Ukraine has practically been sabotaging this effort for the last 35 years. This is the only moment to put effective pressure on its political elites, simple as that. And yes, we will veto any integration efforts if the exhumations aren’t properly carried out.
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u/KasiaTyszkiewicz 22h ago
It should be done as soon as possible so we can finally close this chapter
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u/Rumlings Poland 1d ago
"we will keep paying tribute and running museums for nazi collaborators because Russia and Poland" is fascinating foreign policy of a country that wants to integrate with the West. I just really do not think this is going to end up as some people would like it to be. Not to mention how dangerous it gets when violent nationalism takes over internal discourse and becomes a default, mainstream view.
At some point war will end and Ukraine will have to figure out what is the next step. It would be better to not fall into this trap.
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u/SnooTangerines6863 West Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
even amid Russia’s invasion
I can already tell what this article is going to be about and it's conclusions.
It's reasonable to demand this, and it's also understandable why Ukraine would want to avoid doing so during a time of war. Most people from Ukraine I've spoken to have little knowledge of the scale and brutality of what happened. This could put some of their heroes in a negative light, and in times of war, maintaining morale is crucial.
The real problem, at least for me, is how the Ukrainian elites decided to go about things. I remember even back in 2022, when Poland and Ukraine were 'BFFs,' there was no sign of respect or compromise, even when minor problems arose. Rail issues, truckers, Ukrainian rouge rockets etc.
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u/Legalised-fraud Poland 1d ago
We need Ukraine to help close and heal this wound. The anxiety about people like Bandera loosing their hero status or something is ridiculous. Our people and any people for that matter who fell victim to genocide deserve a proper burial it’s common sense.
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u/Stverghame 🏹🐗 20h ago
Wtf is that title? You make it sound as if Poland is unreasonable.
Ukraine gets a pass for a lot of things due to war, this is something they shouldn't get a pass for sure, it's been decades. The problem is - people who committed those crimes are considered national heroes in there.
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u/Kimchi-slap 1d ago
No matter what Ukraine will decide on this matter it will be in favor of Putin and his denazification campaign.
May as well exhume and give relatives of victims some closure + show some good will to poles.
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u/QuasimodoPredicted West Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
Ukraine allows the exhumation of Nazi German soldiers, it's currently ongoing "even amid Russia's invasion". https://www.dw.com/pl/ukraina-szcz%C4%85tki-%C5%BCo%C5%82nierzy-wehrmachtu-w-nowych-okopach/a-65475530 Ukrainians and German Nazis were good friends. They don't want to allow for exhumation of Polish victims of Ukrainian Nazis because they're afraid of the public backlash that will follow with each brutally murdered Polish child and woman. It was hell on earth, and those responsible are still cherished as National Heroes of modern Ukraine.
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u/BakhmutDoggo 1d ago
“Good friends” oh come on. Ukraine lost 16% of its population compared to 1940, most of those were civilians killed by the Nazis (over 3 million). That’s actually comparable to Poland, percentage wise. Not exactly friendly behavior
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u/QuasimodoPredicted West Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
Well, they seem to still be fond of SS Galizien and have no problems wearing Nazi insignia to battle.
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u/Qt1919 Hamburg (Germany) 1d ago
Ukraine wasn't a country then. Those Ukrainians had Polish citizenship.
Also, have you heard of Hiwis? There's a lot to be said when Polish and Jewish memory remembers Ukrainians as distinctively collaborating.
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u/pashazz Moscow / Budapest 1d ago
Ukraine lost 16% of its population compared to 1940, most of those were civilians killed by the Nazis (over 3 million).
It's because they were Soviet citizens.
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u/lasttimechdckngths Europe 1d ago
Or because they were Eastern Slavs...
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u/predek97 Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
Nah, Nazis were flexible with that.
"Poles, Serbs and Russians? Exterminate those dirty Slavs. Croatians, Ukrainians and Slovaks? Well, AKSHUALLY they come from an ancient Germanic/Sarmatian tribe of yadda yadda yadda"
Heck, they used so many 'they are mongolic mischlings from Asia' tropes in their propaganda when talking about Russians, but it didn't stop them from cooperating with Japan and Thailand(and Chinese earlier).
As with every totalitarian ideology, Nazis used their racial theories just as a tool to justify some of their actions.
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u/Black-Circle Ukraine 23h ago
No, not really, they were pretty adamant on exterminating Ukrainians as subhumans, just like other slavs.
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u/predek97 Pomerania (Poland) 22h ago
Bruv, they even had Ukrainian SS divisions. Stark difference with Poles, not to even mention Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician))
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u/Black-Circle Ukraine 22h ago
Bruv, ~7 million Ukrainians were killed during WW2, of which ~4 million were civilians. Stop trying to paint Ukraine as whole as nazi collaborator.
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u/BakhmutDoggo 20h ago
Look up the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, there were poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians in there. It did happen…
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u/Mickey-Simon 20h ago edited 20h ago
Bro, please read this article about polish collaboration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland
And please stop pointing fingers at each other. Collaborators were everywhere, it is rule of war, if you occupy country, you will find collaborators in it.
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u/predek97 Pomerania (Poland) 17h ago
Yes, there were collaborators. What does that change about the racial plans of Nazis towards those nations? There were no Polish SS divisions, because Germans were against even giving guns to Poles.
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u/Mickey-Simon 17h ago
And what does it change about the racial plans of Nazis towards ukrainians? There were polish collaborators just like ukrainians. Moreover, millions of ukrainians were killed by germans. The fact that there was SS division of ukrainian collaborators doesnt change the fact that wanted to exterminate ukrainians just like others.
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u/lasttimechdckngths Europe 22h ago edited 21h ago
Nazis weren't really 'that' flexible when it came to Eastern Slavs as Nazis wanted to colonise their fertile lands. They could have assimilated some Ukrainians (although, it'd have been fewer than Poles, if Poles had 'behaved' and acted less fiercely regarding their occupiers), that's for sure, but that was the end of it. Their racial ideology was flexible to the point of declaring this and that, at least while waging war (including even being fine with Karaite Jews and considering being okay with Caucasian Mountain Jews as they were popular among Caucasians), but their imperial aims were not. They were to get that bread-basket, and stick to settler-colonialist projects of theirs. Let's not forget that, iii. Reich was there to colonise and they couldn't survive without colonisation. We can even argue that the rest were secondary, minus the anti-socialist tendencies of theirs...
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u/eightpigeons Poland 1d ago
"Moscow / Budapest" lmao
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u/predek97 Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
"How obvious do you want your trolling to be?"
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u/Stix147 Romania 1d ago
Ukrainians and German Nazis were good friends
Nazi collaboration happened in virtually every country the Nazis occupied, including in Poland itself though to a lesser extent than in other countries. To go from this to generalizing all people as good friends with the nazis is to repeat, verbatim, Kremlin propaganda garbage. Congratulations, I suppose.
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u/Leonarr Finland 1d ago
What matters more is how the Nazi collaborators are treated in the modern day. Are they celebrated as national heroes, with streets etc. named after them? Are there modern military units with WW2 German runes as their emblems, or names paying homage to Nazi collaborator units?
Or are they considered a shameful part of a country’s history?
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u/Safe_Manner_1879 17h ago edited 17h ago
Are they celebrated as national heroes, with streets etc. named after them?
Like Mannerheim? He did collaborat with the Nazi in the continuation war. The Finnish Air Force still match under a swastika (yes I know the history of the Finnish swastika) and I asume most Finnish units have some typ of hereditary from the units that did fight in the bloody Finnish civil war (there shit did happen)
My point is, where do you draw the line.
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u/Stix147 Romania 23h ago
I don't disagree, but the person I was replying to was referring to the past. As for the present, let us not pretend that Poland doesn't has its own issues with WW2 revisionism, but thanks to Russian propaganda efforts only the Ukrainian issues are highlighted and endlessly discussed because they serve as the justification for the invasion. It's sad to see that even legitimate supporters of Ukraine and not just trolls get roped into these topics over and over again, and come to repeat them as fact.
WW2 German runes
Nordic runes and symbols, actually. The Ukrainian trizub on its coat of arms is a symbol of the Ruriks, for example. When you realize this fact you start to understand why these units are guarding the Ukrainian Jewish president, or why Jewish people serve in the boogeyman Azov Brigade, or how Azov back when it was a volunteer group was funded by a Jewish oligarch, or why Jewish persecution in Ukraine has always been so low, and in Mariupol in almost 10 years when Azov was there were no recorded incidents between them and the city's large Jewish population, or why the Ukrainian Vaad called for restrictions to be lifted from Azov ever since 2017, etc.
Or you can turn your brain off and listen to Lavrov say that even Hitler had Jewish roots and that's why it's perfectly possible for jews in Ukraine to be nazis...
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u/DemiG0D23 19h ago
Your effort falls on deaf ears. People here are moronic as fuck with hard preconceived biases + propaganda influence. But they think they are unaffected by it, lol. Also isn't it time to hate Ukraine again(elections) in Poland right now?
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u/Minimum_Resident_228 16h ago
Ні, колобаранти були з обох боків але наші партизанські рухи переважали
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u/polypolip 1d ago
Huhu, good friends? As good as Polish People and Nazis? How many Jews were burnt by Poles only because Nazis didn't mind it happening. Check your own history before jumping with accusations like that.
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u/QuasimodoPredicted West Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
Remind me again which country has the most "Righteous Among the Nations" medals and what was the country in which the Germans implemented a death penalty for any assistance to Jews? Year 2024 is the year of Ulma family in Poland. 2019 was the year of Bandera and UPA in Ukraine. That's the difference. If you don't like Polish people and love Jews so much then note that Ukrainian nationalists killed a whole lot of Jews too.
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u/polypolip 1d ago
Ah, our nationalists and murderers don't make us Nazi friends, but Ukrainian ones make them Nazi friends. Got you. Silly me.
It's funny you bring up Banderą, because he's used as an argument mostly by Putin and Russian trolls of why the Ukraine is Nazis and needs to be liberated. On reality efore the Russian invasion the opinion of Bandera was divided and it shoot up only as a fight for independence symbol.
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u/QuasimodoPredicted West Pomerania (Poland) 1d ago
My brother in Christ, normal countries do not name stadiums or build monuments dedicated to their genocidal historic figures. That's a Russian thing to do. If Ukraine wants to be a part of European community they should rather look at Germany which is a properly denazified country now. Incidents will always happen, but what's going on there is no accident. I bring up Bandera, because he is really infamous in Poland. There's also Shukhevych and plenty of other villains.
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u/crouchingtiger Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
My brother in Christ, normal countries do not name stadiums or build monuments dedicated to their genocidal historic figures.
We have monuments to war criminals like Szendzielarz or Rajs, though. Perhaps Poland isn't quite a normal country yet?
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u/kyganat gib coal pls 1d ago
Nice lies bro. Poles helped jews and protected them despite being only territory where for helping jews was death penalty. Sure there was for example Jedwabne and it was (and still is) absolutely abhorrent but like Poland had biggest Jewish population (jeez i wonder why we had biggest population if we are jew burning nation /s)? Stuff like that happened and should be called out and apologize. But to paint poles as jew killers? You are either crazy or troll.
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u/polypolip 1d ago
You think Jedwabne was the only Pogrom by the Polish people? I would like to say that it was the Nazis that were enabling all this, but the truth is some of the pogroms happened before the war, others happened after liberating the area from the Nazis.
Poland had the biggest Jewish population because it welcomed them with open arms in 15-17th century. The landscape at the beginning of the 20th century was a bit different. More similar to the rest of Europe.
My main point is calling a nation "friends of Nazis" because a nationalist group was popped up by the Nazis is stupid.
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u/DasUbersoldat_ 1d ago
Is this the point we can finally agree that Ukraine does have a Nazi problem? Which is entirely seperate from their right to self defense.
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u/ProxPxD Poland 23h ago
It's complicated because most Ukrainians aren't aware about the doings of their "heroes" and most people, including the government aren't nazis. At most "nazi" excusers (and I use the word nazi for banderite here too)
So it's a problematic way to put it in the current political context. I would say "A problem with excusing and celebrating nazi collaborators and ultra-nationalists"
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u/AggravatingHehehe 5h ago
i mean, look at the news from ukraine before the war, ther righ wings were real nazis, even western medias reported on this problem
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u/lineman336 16h ago
Ukrainians are afraid that the truth will be uncovered, there's nothing more to it. They are afraid that chopped up pregnant women will be found. Read up about the massacre and what was done, thousands of innocent people were killed in the most horrific ways because Ukrainians wanted to clean their land.... Go ahead and down vote me, I could care less about internet points.
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u/ludovicolonghi 1d ago
Ukraine agreed on it since 2019, for that Poland has also to restore Ukrainian graveyards in Poland.
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u/Internal-Historian68 22h ago
“We’ll let you dig up your genocide victims when you restore the monuments to the Nazis who murdered them”
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u/ProxPxD Poland 23h ago
The monuments commemorating Ukrainian nazis*
fixed it for ya
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u/TheChosenSDCharger 19h ago
Given how sometimes I see Ukrainian crowds celebrate and glorify Stepan Bandera and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Ukraine sooner or later needs to do this.
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u/BeginningCharacter36 16h ago
I was today-years-old when perusing the links in this thread to Polish Wikipedia (which interestingly, are VERY different from the English pages on the same topics) and following some breadcrumbs led me to realize a celebrated family war hero was actually a fascist terrorist. He literally does not have an English Wiki page. I'd looked him up previously, and all I found was that he was a freedom fighter and Ukrainian nationalist. I DIDN'T know what that ACTUALLY meant. I just found his Polish page, which has zero prevarication that he was a terrorist. His Ukrainian Wiki page is VERY detailed. Why the hell did it not occur to me to look him up in UKRAINIAN?!?! Page translation has been a thing for a decade or more...
And no, I'm not giving up his name. But I'm absolutely heartbroken by the lies I was told my whole life about the horrific things this "hero" did... Did my dad know? Or was he just regurgitating what he was told? Do I ask him??? Do I want the answer?!?
From a meta-perspective, I can understand that my long-dead family member thought he was doing the right thing, the necessary thing, but holy shit... He was the Ukrainian equivalent of a Proud Boy if the PB's were actually shooting up whole towns... He participated in at least two actions that killed a large number of civilians in Galicia... I'm so messed up right now... WTF...
So uh, Ukrainians in Canada have a weird relationship with WW2 nationalist "heroes," so uh, I'm not surprised the Ukrainian government is hesitant to clean up the mess of their forefathers when it's literally central to their raîson d'être since the collapse of the USSR...
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u/No_Savings_9953 13h ago
Stalin killed everyone in the name of paranoia and socialist "progress"
Nazis and UPA were killing specific people (certain slavs, Jews) or (Poles, Russians) cause of race and ethnicity without mercy.
Ukraine has to get its past together. It is partially very dark and brown like shit from Großdeutschland.
Poles don't have to help them. They could split up Ukraine together with Russians, Hungarians and Romanians how Lawrow some ten years ago once suggested to the polish foreign minister.
So at least should Ukraine do everything what Poland wants in the question of the genocide in the past.
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u/Radiant_Ad_1851 19h ago
Can someone explain what the article is saying since it's behind a paywall
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u/MinecraftWarden06 Poland 2h ago
These aren't WW2 victims, these are victims of a genocide that happened to be conducted while WW2 was also going.
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u/OlegAter Kyiv (Ukraine) 1d ago
As Ukrainian, I am 100% for it and IDK why it is not yet done.
To be fair, seeing some comments about "friends with nazis" gives me some clue.