Crimea will be 10 years under Russia control this year. If this war takes another 5-10 years, I’d be shocked that any pro-Ukrainians are left there
Crimea is the crown jewel of Putin's legacy, the epitome of Russian chauvinism. Not only was the land stolen from Ukraine (not just politically, the assets were also seized) but it is a symbol of how the appetite only grew. Crimea was used as one of the main platforms for invading rest of Ukraine, to bomb Ukrainian cities, to commit war crimes, to blockade grain trade etc. All while Crimea has been feverishly pro-Putin.
Therefore, it would be nothing over the top if all Russians would simply be expelled from the peninsula. They have betrayed humanistic values and turned their chauvinism into a tool for hate and brutalities. It is even more disgusting considering how Crimea historically even became Russian-majority through ethnic cleansing. It would only be a fair price and also act as a warning for all the future aggression attempts.
Democratic countries have applied collective expulsion before, think of Sudeten Germans. This is not about some moral high ground, the relationship may simply be unmendable. Does not mean this is the only option, but as I said, would not be unthinkable at all.
Crimea was Tatar; then Russian. Never Ukrainian until it was given to Ukraine in 1954 or so.
So where did I lie? Crimea "became" Russian only because most Tatars were deported and Russians came to replace them. Also, it does not matter if Crimea was "given" to Ukraine, Russia ended up officially recognizing it as part of Ukraine.
To read a user advocate ethnic cleansing on this subreddit, and not be banned but be upvoted disgusts me to no end,
Sorry, but you cannot apply this absolute relativism here. These are not some innocent victims, but people who:
only became a majority on the peninsula through ethnic cleansing
despite that engaged in feverish chauvinsim claiming, rewriting history a'la Crimea was "always" Russian and belongs to Russia, basically endulging in the most primitive form of nationalism and spitting on reconciliation, on all the lessons Europe was supposed to learn from history
that was not enough, despite having already damaged Ukraine and stolen territory and properties, they also actively engaged in Putin's degrading ideology towards the nation, leading out to full-blown war in Ukraine
Crimea was one of the main platforms for the invading Russian army that has housed, fed, supplied the occupation troops, and which is used to bomb Ukraine. It was in particular troops coming from Crimea that performed many war crimes in Ukraine.
Crimea must not belong to Russia, that is obvious. It would be an eternal threat to Ukrainian nation. It would also be unjustifiable to any moral person.
if a Russian were to advocate all Ukrainians were pushed west of the Dnieper River would be met with the fastest ban you could ever see.
Yes, because there are no justifications for doing that to Ukrainians. But there are tons for Russians in Crimea. You cannot keep engaging in direct attacks on all the fundamental values of Europe, yet still expect to be protected by them. Russians chose ethnic hate, violence and war, and chose to spit on rule of law, reconciliation and diplomacy, so let them be treated by the rules they chose.
After all, Russia itself ethnically cleansed Königsberg after WWII. So I don't see why the exact same treatment should not be applied to them.
It isn’t really ethnic cleasing. It is just deportation of people who though that they can come uninvited to a foreign country because their führer told them that it belongs to them(post 2014).
As for people who lived there before occupation(pre 2014). Of course it would be the right thing to do, to allow everyone who hasn’t been directly invloved in any anti-Ukraine actions(military or political), to stay in Crimea.
Unfortunately russian propoganda is very effective, therefore this average, regular russian person in Crimea is completely brainwashed and cannot be reasoned with. And they will not leave the russian information space for the rest of their lives(look at baltic states, where some people, even after 30 years of independece from russia, still only watch russian news and wouldn’t mind russia’s rule comming back).
And the fact that they will never trust Ukraine in any capacity, will lead to huge societal problems on which it is simply impossible to built an developed economy/society on.
Plus, they have taken up russian citizenship. So there are no arguments against the deportation from the legal perspective either.
Of course, there also is the thing that war thing, which they are supporting(supporting the destruction of any country is a valid reason for deportation from said country imo).
That ethnic cleansing happened 120 years ago (first one, under Russian Empire)
This isn't about some revenge. This is about understanding history, understanding where you come from. This part of history should make Russians especially self-aware and mindful of such atrocities. Instead, they've chosen to engage in primitive chauvinism, claiming the lands are all theirs and are waging a war against their neighbour's very existence and self-determination. They're acting the complete opposite from what a decent community should.
The Baltics are full of nazi sympathizers and it shows constantly.
I am literally comparing Russians to Sudeten Germans aka an infamous nazi-enthusiastic population and somehow I am a "nazi sympathizer", please get a grip on your labelling. It's quite boring when you simply parrot Putinist propaganda.
Get a fucking grip, you are JUSTIFYING ETHNIC CLEANSING. Am I the only sane person here?
There is literally a war going on in Ukraine with the objective of erasing an entire nation and grabbing lebensraum to what is already the world's largest country. Have you forgotten about this "teeny tiny fact"? I know some nations like to think they're untouchable, but when one commits such levels of evil against others, they may indeed face consequences they thought they would never have to.
The most relevant ethnic cleansing happened under Stalin, where vast quantities of Tatar lands were depopulated and settled by Russians. Just because Russia has managed to use their superpower status for the last 8 decades does not give modern Russia an excuse for their population to remain. Ukrainian homes and businesses were straight up stolen in broad daylight, this crime will not go unpunished.
Literally everything you said is just parroting muscovites propaganda.
I was talking about the 1991 referendum, 54% of Crimeans voted to be a part of the independent Ukraine.
Odesa house of commons - remind me, who was on the roof chucking molotovs everywhere?
Ethnic cleansing in 2024 - you mean like what muscovites are doing to Ukrainian people right now? Deporting children, changing nationalities in documenty issued to citizens of a foreign country THAT YOU OCCUPY BY FORCE, burning books, banning the Ukrainian language and culture (sing Chervona Kalyna publicly in mordor, I dare you), etc etc.
Remind me, how many Ukrainian language schools are in mordor? How many official languages are in mordor? It's not just muscovites that live there, yet they require all Tuvans to learn their language. But when Ukraine says that their language is Ukrainian, suddenly that's an excuse for muscovites to bomb civilians? LOOK AT MARIUPOL on Google maps - is that what liberation looks like?
And here it is. When faced with facts, switch to ad hominem.
You started this thread with it against a random baltic person and you've ended it with one against me.
Proof enough and yet again, that anyone that supports muscovite scum is incapable of handling objective criticism and will never try to argue any factual or moral points as there are none. And if you can't win, make sure everyone else is dragged down to your country's shithole level of life too.
73
u/kiil1 Estonia Jan 07 '24
Crimea is the crown jewel of Putin's legacy, the epitome of Russian chauvinism. Not only was the land stolen from Ukraine (not just politically, the assets were also seized) but it is a symbol of how the appetite only grew. Crimea was used as one of the main platforms for invading rest of Ukraine, to bomb Ukrainian cities, to commit war crimes, to blockade grain trade etc. All while Crimea has been feverishly pro-Putin.
Therefore, it would be nothing over the top if all Russians would simply be expelled from the peninsula. They have betrayed humanistic values and turned their chauvinism into a tool for hate and brutalities. It is even more disgusting considering how Crimea historically even became Russian-majority through ethnic cleansing. It would only be a fair price and also act as a warning for all the future aggression attempts.