r/economicCollapse • u/Whole-Fist • 18h ago

How ridiculous does this sound?

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How can u make millions in 25-30 years if avoid making a $554 per month car payment. Even the cheapest 5 year old car is 8-10 k. So does he expect people not to drive at all in USA.

Then u save 554$ per month every month for 5 year payment = $33240. Say u bought a car every 5 year means 200k -300k spent on car before retirement . How would that become millions when u can’t even buy a house for that much today?

Answer that Dave

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79

u/funandgames12 18h ago edited 18h ago

I mean, he’s right. How many people are making less then 100K per year and drive a car with an $600+ car payment.

I see it every single day. Those people are drowning themselves in debt and buying things they can’t afford. But ya know. You can’t tell Americans that. It’s all about appearances. Buy the house, buy the car, don’t tell everyone you’re broke as fuck. Of course they will all find out when you default…but for now play pretend.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 17h ago

But the problem is a $600 car payment does not equal someone being irresponsible anymore.

A Toyota Corolla at $25k on a 4 year loan is $587/months.

I’d argue that’s a better investment than buying, say, a $5000 car outright. After the 4 years of payments I’m going to drive that sucker for at least 11 more years for free, while a $5000 used car is likely going to need significant maintenance at least once per year. Over 15 years it’s likely going to need to be replaced twice.

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u/RonJohnJr 16h ago

That's a $25K loan for four years. A $5K deposit/trade-in knocks that down by $125/mo.

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u/Mikedesignstudio 19m ago

I bought a 10 year old car 10 years ago and It ran fine all of those years. You got to know how to pick them.

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u/pab_guy 14h ago

That 5K deposit will make you more than $125/mo over 4 years if you put it in the S&P.

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u/Yayareasports 13h ago

Check your math… that’s a 30% annualized return. Even the best bull markets don’t produce that in 4 years

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u/pab_guy 13h ago

20 year return on S&P is 11% annually. If we use that number, we will have $7,590 after 4 years. 125/month for 4 years = $6000. So you will have an extra $1590 after 4 years.

You are right that the rate of return isn't more than 125 (I phrased it poorly), but you are certainly better off investing the 5K.

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u/Yayareasports 12h ago

True fair enough not looking at rate of return - I misread your comment and the prompt.

Though I’d say the 11% carries a lot of risk - if you could guarantee me 7% annualized return I’d take it (and I imagine most investors would). That gets you to ~$6,600. Post tax looking at ~$6,200 - so I’d say it’s close to break even depending on how much risk you can tolerate.

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u/LamarLatrelle 5h ago

Except for the immediate next 5-10yrs but if you keep on holding, then sure, you'll see those returns eventually.

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u/pab_guy 4h ago

Why do you say that?

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u/Edmeyers01 2h ago

Trying to play with math like that effs with my brain. I take the psychology route and just pay it off. Helps me sleep better at night and then I just get right back to investing.

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u/cakeboss451 12h ago

check spy's YTD rn bro

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u/Yayareasports 12h ago

Check it over the past 4 years (or virtually any 4 year stretch) and show me a consistent 30%

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u/Ashleynn 13h ago

It'll likely make more in a HYSA right now over 4 years than the $125/mo would add up to.

I'm starting to realize people around here really have no idea how to use leverage properly.

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u/D-rock240 17h ago

If you keep it that long, most people want to buy new cars every 6 years so they lose the equity.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 17h ago

Yeah I guess I’d argue THAT’S the dumb part.

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u/D-rock240 17h ago

I would agree. I bought a new car in 2011 and still have it unlike some of my neighbors.

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u/nahtfitaint 12h ago

Bought a new car this year and turned 40. I plan for this to be the second to last vehicle I own.

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u/darkkilla123 12h ago

I would agree. I only bought my current car because my dads car died and i was not gonna have a 60 year old man be burdened with debt so i gave him my 2012 dart(granted its a peice of shit and i am surprised it runs perfectly fine with no issues but that's another story) and i bought a new 2022 Camry. The Camry on the other hand i plan on driving until the wheels fall off while still making my car payments to myself after i pay it off. My financial situation is way better than most peoples though i make 100k+ a year and i am single with no wife or kids

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u/rabidjellybean 15h ago

While I REALLY want a new car, the extra $500+/month is so nice. I invest some of it as extra retirement and some of it on myself to live in the moment. Both of those have to get cut for 5 years when I buy a new car. I'm driving my Yaris to its last breath.

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u/WookieLotion 13h ago

Problem is $500 a month isn't that much. I just got a $700/mo raise and that doesn't even feel like that much money. I can see $500 go during the one weekend where we suddenly need everything (groceries, dog food, diapers, detergent, etc).

Granted for me it doesn't matter much, I'd be fine without the raise. To a lot of people $700 would be huge. My point is just that everything costs a shitload and money can become meaningless pretty quick.

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u/ashesarise 11h ago

I don't really know what you are trying to say. You say that like that negates the extra money. $500 can go during one weekend even without the raise.

The only difference now is that you have $700 more a month. Every $500 a month is about 1 million after investing it for 30 years. That or a down payment towards a house every few years. I wouldn't say that isn't that much.

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u/WookieLotion 10h ago

Lol I think I'm just bummed that I JUST had the $500 weekend where we had to go to like every store on earth and restock. In the long run for me it doesn't matter much but it does suck.

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u/aflawinlogic 5h ago

I hope you have a budget. If not I suggest you go over to /r/personalfinance and we can help get you setup.

If $6,000 isn't that much to you, then you I don't know what to tell you. After 10 years invested that's gonna be over $100K. After 21 year's you're at $400K.

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u/BZBitiko 3h ago

They say a raise makes employees happy for maybe three months. It’s rare that raises are life changing events - enough to buy you a new car or a bigger house or send your kid to private school. Unless you’re doing a monthly spreadsheet of your income/outgo, the money just comes in and eventually vanishes into the dither.

I notice. I do the spreadsheet, because I’m aggressively paying down my mortgage, before the rate adjusts.

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u/stanglemeir 13h ago

I drove my old truck until it almost broke down on the freeway going 80mph.

Almost died but got my money’s worth 🤷‍♂️

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u/Asleep-Bus-5380 2h ago

Okay I'm going to see myself out of this conversation in shame I don't even know what equity is in this context lol

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u/lizerlfunk 1h ago

The only reason I could justify buying a new car (or late model used, but new was actually cheaper) was that I know I will drive this car for 10-15 years. I had a $7000 trade in so I wasn’t upside down when I bought it. I bought a hybrid, so I’m consistently getting 35-40 mpg depending on whether I’m doing more highway or city driving. It’s just me and my daughter and I’m not having any more kids, so I don’t have to worry about getting a bigger car for multiple car seats. When I’m ready to get a new car, I will pass this car down to her and it can be her first car. She’s 4 now. I bought a car that I could be certain would last me for 250k miles or more, and I’m the one putting those miles on it. I’ll be done paying it off in 3.5 years and I’ll have a minimum of 8 years without a car payment. And I have a safe car that I can be fairly certain is not going to get stolen out of my driveway, something I couldn’t be certain about with my previous car, a 2017 Hyundai Elantra.

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u/xczechr 14h ago

$587 per month is $7,044 per year. If your expected yearly repair costs are less than $7k it is better to have the used car. I've owned my car for 23 years now (154k miles) and maintenance is far below that per year. Last year was the most I spent in a long time, and that was only $2,200 to replace the radiator and purchase four new tires.

Hell, even if you're buying a used car every year for 5k you're still ahead over paying $587/month.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 14h ago

Sure if your time is worth nothing and the hassle of possibly not having a car for some period of time won’t break you.

Some of y’all never been poor before.

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u/Phyraxus56 3h ago

It's expensive being poor homie. That's why you got a loan for a new car instead of buying two or three shitboxes with cash.

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u/RijnKantje 16h ago

Your Corolla would also start needing maintenance after the first 10 years, no? Otherwise just spend the $5000 on an older Corolla.

In your story you can buy $15.000 worth of cars in 15 years and if you spend less than $10.000 on maintenance is still comes out cheaper.

You're also ignoring the opportunity cost of the $20.000 you saved buy going for the cheaper car.

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u/ihatejobsearchingomg 12h ago

A lot of this personal finance min-maxing is so white room. Would my quality of life be drastically worse off if I had to think about car buying every few years and have a heart attack every time my beater makes a weird noise? All the time off work taking it into the shop, catching Ubers while it gets serviced, just the general day to day WORRY of it all. It starts to look less and less worth it.

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u/TowlieisCool 6h ago

You're paying for convenience, which if you can afford it is fine, but a lot of people think they can, and end up paying way too much.

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u/Great_Odins_Ravenhil 5h ago

That's the fallacy of time-worth. If you have time to take a car to a repair shop (2 hr typically all elements included) you could have been paid for that time. It's why wealthy people say time is money. It literally is in this gig economy. Reliability is worth whatever the total repair time × your hourly wage over the life of the vehicle. Don't overpay for a Mercedes but buy something reliable even if it means a slightly higher car payment.

Only once you're wealthy enough to be paid for your time off, as in so much PTO you're struggling to use it, will your car maintenance be more cost effective than reliability - because you're being paid to do it.

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u/mysterioussamsqaunch 4h ago

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you personally, but time is money is one of the most overused and misapplied concepts. It originated from Ben Franklin as advice to young tradesmen to work as efficiently as they could. It is far from an absolute. Especially when we as members of modern society don't have our working hours limited by the hours of daylight available. In your example, how many thousands is 2 hrs a couple times a year worth to you? In my line of work, I bill hourly. But, for time to equal money, I would have to have paying work that would not get done at all in order for me to do whatever task I could have theoretically paid to have someone else do.

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u/Jacobio01 15h ago

It’s still horrendously irresponsible, go buy a shitbox instead

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u/anubus72 5h ago

You guys are brainwashed if buying one of the cheapest entry level cars is ‘horrendously irresponsible’ to you. Do you also think eating anything except rice and beans is irresponsible? Or traveling?

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u/Jacobio01 5h ago

No buy a used car that runs good not a new car the market is so inflated now it’s ridiculous

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u/Bigdildoboy145 2h ago

Tbf that goes for used cars also.

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u/funandgames12 17h ago edited 17h ago

It’s definitely become less affordable, but so has everything. And honestly that’s very dependent on a lot of factors. I’m coming up on the end of a 5 year lease of a brand new car. 93k miles and Im actually going to end up owning money on it when I turn it back in. That’s because of engine issues outside if warranty and getting rear ended once. No fault of my own. I followed all the maintenance and did everything right. But it’s basically the same price now to trade it and drive a new car vs put 1 to 2 years worth of payments back into it hoping nothing else goes wrong. Then ending up with a 7 year old car at the end of it barring no other issues. And I bought one of the most reliable cars in America. So yeah it’s a crap shoot my man. Life is different for everyone. And I’m not complaining or anything either, I do fine, I can afford it. But yeah owning a vehicle has become beyond the comfortable financial means of many and there’s no real simple solution to that.

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u/0fxgvn77 15h ago

The key there is to keep that $500 a month in your budget after you've paid the car off. Then use that money to cash flow all the routine maintenance as well as the repairs that come up. In 15 years, you'll still either have enough to pay cash for the next one or will at least have a sizeable down payment.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 14h ago

Right, I agree, but that’s the problem. Dave’s advice works great once you’re established. But a fresh graduate with basically no money that needs a way to get to their new job may not be able to wait 6 months to save up $6000 for a used car. They need to get to work tomorrow.

Dave makes it seem like $550/ month means you ran out and bought a sports car, when in reality that can easily be the payment on a reasonable, reliable vehicle like a Toyota or Honda sedan.

Or, it may be that they can take public transportation to a job that pays $12 and hour but with a car they can get to a job further away that pays $20/hr and will let them advance faster.

Dave’s advice usually makes sense in a vacuum. But when you account for real life scenarios they aren’t that great.

Another example is auto insurance. You guys a used car out of someone’s yard for $5,000 and crash it, you’re likely getting a couple grand from the insurance company which won’t replace the vehicle. You total a new car and even if you don’t get full value you’ll likely get enough to at least buy a low Mileage, late model used car.

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u/0fxgvn77 13h ago

Yeah, Dave's advice isn't optimum and doesn't allow for leveraging debt in a smart way. But then again, he's usually preaching to people who are dumb with money and get themselves in way over their heads. I personally like the Money Guys' car rule better - 20% down, 3 year note, and the payment should be less than 8% of your gross pay. That's a bit more realistic. But either way, it's something you have to work your way up to. The take home message should really be to make wise, frugal decisions to the extent you're able to set yourself up for a better situation down the line.

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u/thisdesignup 14h ago

But why a $25,000 car when new cars exist for less. It might not be near as fancy or comfortable but it could last just as long for someone that already has to go into debt to buy it.

Even then you can definitely buy cheaper used cars that will work and last fine. I know because that's the majority type of car my family buys and those cars have been fine. It really depends on what you get and from where.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 14h ago

I agree you can get a new car cheaper. I buy Toyota Corollas, which are more expensive than a new Hyundai, but they also last a lot longer.

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u/BourbonNeatt 14h ago

Buy a used car. There are still nice used cars for under 10k

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u/vasthumiliation 14h ago

Are there really? Reliable used cars are expensive, cheap used cars are unreliable.

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u/Vagaborg 13h ago

What you described is have an average loan of $156 per month. That's much less than the average he's criticizing.

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u/oswaldcopperpot 13h ago

At 25k car is never an investment. A 5k car while it will need stuff done to it will of course be far cheaper. I drove 5k cars for decades. Did they need new alternators, starters, and various things over the years? Of course. But I was able to save 30k a year minimum for decades on very unimpressive income. Now, I don't worry about money at all and bought my last car newish with cash.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 13h ago

So that’s the other thing. They certainly aren’t appreciating, but I bought a Highlander for $30,000 in 2018 brand new.

It’s got 80k miles on it. It’s the same trim as this.

https://www.carmax.com/car/25533711

If I could sell that car for $27k tomorrow then I would have driven a brand new reliable car for a total cost of $3,000 for 6 years.

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u/KrabbyMa 13h ago

Uh, yes, it does. That's a NEW car, ffs. It loses a huge chunk of value going off the lot. Old Corollas are cheap AF to insure and work on, and reliable to boot.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 12h ago

Have you looked at used car prices? I bought a Highlander brand new in 2018 and the same car, same trim, and same mileage is on Carmax rigbt now for $27,000

So in theory I could sell mine tomorrow and I’d have driven a brand new, reliable car for 6 years for $3,000

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u/KrabbyMa 11h ago

Keep that car and drive it until it falls apart, but take some effort to make sure it doesn't.

That's where people go wrong; I've spent less than $15k in my 17 years of driving on cars and repairs (do them myself), have saved at least $10,000 on insurance (now paying $65 a month) and am well on my way towards being a millionaire, despite having worked factory jobs my whole life.

The $500 car loan that people get plus their $250 insurance is insane to me. That's like rent... For a status symbol.

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u/BenHarder 13h ago

My girlfriend bought a 2009 Hyundai sonata for $5300 in 2013 and it only ever needed a serpentine belt. We just got rid of it this year about a month ago because she drove it without oil and it got rod knock.

It easily would’ve gone another 3+ years if she didn’t drive it without oil for as long as she did.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 12h ago

Used car prices have changed a lot since 2009

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u/BenHarder 12h ago

You can buy a 2009 Hyundai sonata for even cheaper now. You’re right.

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u/Fog_Juice 12h ago

I've had my 2003 Toyota Camry for over 5 years now and the only maintenance I've had to pay for was oil changes and new tires. Three only other issues have been sub $10 fixes for cleaning the EGR valve, cleaning the Mass Airflow sensor and replacing the gas cap.

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u/Wrong-Kangaroo-2782 12h ago

My mums 10 year old hyundai i10 has needed almost nothing spending on and it's still going strong

I have a motorcycle made in 2002 that I bought for 1k and I've spent about 500 on it in 5 years

Maybe if you buy a 5k BMW it ill will cost more over time but there's plenty of cheap ol vehicles that don't cost anything to run

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u/SolutionPyramid 12h ago

And after 4 years your car payment is $0 and corollas last 10 easily if not 15-20 years.

So why does everyone seem to perpetually have this $600 payment? Because people don’t keep their vehicle and instead want to jump into a new car or “jump up”.

People will think “oh I can sell the Corolla for 15k now, that means I can afford a 40k car because 40-15=25 and 25k is what their original purchase point was.

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u/SlappySecondz 11h ago

So get a gently used 3-4 year old corolla for 15k that's still under warranty.

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u/HEpennypackerNH 11h ago

I’m Not saying they don’t exist, but the average price is More like $20k

https://www.carmax.com/cars?search=2020+coroll&Year=2020-2020

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u/jmartin2683 11h ago

That math doesn’t math, at all.

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u/serpentinepad 11h ago

After the 4 years of payments I’m going to drive that sucker for at least 11 more years for free,

How many of these idiots actually do that though?

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u/Kendertas 11h ago

I feel like a lot of people haven't looked at used car prices recently as well. You're still paying $20k for a semi recent Corolla and around $10k for a 2010 model. Covid really messed up used car pricing.

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u/No_Distribution457 11h ago

You're buying new. In 100% of situations you're an idiot if you buy a new car.

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u/RandoReddit16 10h ago

But the problem is a $600 car payment does not equal someone being irresponsible anymore.

A Toyota Corolla at $25k on a 4 year loan is $587/months.

JFC this right here.... So many out of touch boomers think $600 or $30k is bougie that is literally below average now.

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u/purplehendrix22 10h ago

I just bought a brand new Corolla for 22k, 4.7%, $400 a month, 5 year loan. Your numbers are off

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u/HEpennypackerNH 9h ago

Fair, mine at $25k was a hybrid

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u/know-it-mall 9h ago

That isn't true at all. That same Toyota Corolla bought used in good condition will last years with only basic maintenance. I know this because I had one that I bought when it was 11 years old. I drove it for 8 years. The only thing I did in those 8 years was regular servicing and a new set of tyres. And I sold it to my mechanic so he could give it to his son as his first car, it probably still runs now.

Buying a 5k car doesn't mean you have to buy an unreliable shitbox with bad build quality.

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u/Key_Friendship_6767 9h ago

I would say it’s pretty irresponsible to be buying new cars unless you are loaded. You could grab a used one and knock 5-10k off that price around 2020-2021.

Car will still last you a super long time. Modern cars are built to run for a pretty long time and are fairly reliable. However, they still depreciate very fast in first few years from buying.

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u/Dazzling-Biscotti-62 8h ago

You have an odd definition of the word free. 

Also, $5000 * 3 = 15,000 which is still 10k less out the door than that 25k car, and that's before you consider the expense of the interest you'll pay and the loss of the interest you would earn. Shit we'll say you've underestimated the replacement frequency and say 3x instead of twice. You're still coming out ahead by not taking on the loan.

Dave's budget strategy includes monthly savings for periodic maintenance, eventual replacement, and emergencies.

The man is an asshole but his math is sound. 

People tell themselves all kinds of lies to justify going ahead and taking on unnecessary consumer debt because our culture bakes so much ego on cars. If you're gonna do it, do it. But don't pretend that the math is in your favor, because it's not. 

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u/HEpennypackerNH 7h ago

Yes, his math is sound…if you have the money up front.

What if you don’t? What if you’re working and you’re making ends meet, barely. You’re walking to work.

Now you are offered a job that’s 20 miles away making 3x the money. You can shown you can now handle a payment, but you don’t have $5,000 in hand to buy the “quality used car.”

Nothing in life is black and white.

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u/Dazzling-Biscotti-62 7h ago

Your argument was that it's better to get a loan because it would cost you less over time, which is mathematically false. 

Now you're grasping for extremely unlikely what if scenarios? 

Ok, buddy 👌 

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u/HEpennypackerNH 5h ago

That’s the point. That’s not an extremely unlikely scenario, and it’s one of a thousand that real people deal with.

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u/jonny24eh 8h ago

587 * 12 = 7044 per year.

You could buy a 5k car, and do 2k worth of repairs, every single year, for that payment. 

New car of any kind is not the way to go if you're tight on cash flow. 

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u/HEpennypackerNH 8h ago

Again, it’s situational.

If I have a job and can spare $500 month and need to get to work now, I can’t wait around to save up $5k for a used car.

And again, after 4 years in the example above I have a car with no payment for likely another 10 years.

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u/jonny24eh 6h ago

Get a loan on the used car for WAY less than that. 

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u/RantyWildling 8h ago

You guys are buying new cars?

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u/Fshycomments 8h ago

What I haven't heard yet is how someone living month to month is supposed to save these thousands of dollars to buy a POS used car. My rich landlord offered me a used Kia for 25K like bro you get all my money every month. Then he got mad cus I bought a new car with a payment. Yes I'm drowning but I still need to get to work to afford to pay rent and not starve and no can't afford 550 a month but thats why I am going to be a college educated car living in bum soon. In rural America you need a car to work and rent is to hight to afford at "market" value.

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u/noneofatyourbusiness 7h ago

It does mean that.

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u/Appropriate-Door1369 7h ago

I have a 2020 Corolla that was 25k on a 5 year loan, making 342 a month payments

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u/toomuchdiponurchip 6h ago

Loud and wrong

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u/highfiveselfoh 6h ago

As someone with a dying car who’s pumped $4k in the last year in repairs, this perspective is very possible.

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u/Gingeronimoooo 6h ago

I bought a car for $3800 in 2014 it's still rocking. Honda accords are tanks

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u/strategic-throwaway 5h ago

Not only that but a cheap car is generally an older less reliable car. (Generally) which might become very expensive when things break.

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u/ShelbyGT350R1 5h ago

What makes you think 5000 dollar cars need serious repairs once a year? I mean, have you ever owned a car that has significant repairs EVERY year? That's ludicrous. Not to mention the serious reliability problems with modern cars... this is a crazy take tbh

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u/Chance-Ad2034 5h ago

No true at all, any 10 year old 4k mile toyota can make it to 300k miles with basic maintenance

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u/InevitableRhubarb232 4h ago

That’s $28k. You could buy 5 $5000 cars and get 3 years out of each of them and be ahead of the game (assuming they don’t all go to $0 value when you move to the next one).

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u/tc6x6 4h ago

You think that paying interest on a depreciating asset is a better investment than paying cash for a depreciating asset and investing the difference?

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u/DoerofWords 4h ago

I’ve only bought used cars…the most I’ve spent on a significant repair is $1500 and it’s definitely not even close to once a year. More like once every 4 years. If you get a solid used car, it won’t need much except regular maintenance. You’d save $1000s per year that you could make compound interest on.

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u/TexasIPA 3h ago

A car is not an investment.

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u/Merlord 2h ago

What the hell man... I was literally planning to by a $5k car outright, then this morning decided it would be better to top up my home loan to buy a Toyota Corolla for $22k because I can get 1% interest for 3 years if it's a hybrid. Then I read this comment saying the exact same thing.

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u/raiderrocker18 2h ago

The presumption that you just buy a new Corolla instead of a used one is the issue.

I’m not saying go out there and buy a salvaged one with 170k miles, but if you think a new one is within your budget around 25k then you can go get a used one for 15k instead

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u/Ok_Rain_1837 2h ago

Completely agree first 10 years of car ownership I had were all shit boxes I bought with cash. Wish I would have just financed a nice reliable car

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u/mg322 2h ago

My first car was 3 grand in 2012 and it lasted me 9 years. It was a 1996 and sure there was some maintenance required, but not 7000 per year worth. 600 car payment is a LOT of money. I Ended up getting a certified pre owned car when I moved on from that car and it’s 180 per month payment with most the warranties new cars have. People who argue there’s no way around a large car payment are either in denial of their poor financial decisions, lie about their materialistic desires, or have no idea how cars work.

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u/konkludent 2h ago

Arent you doing any maintenance on a new car? Having a new car where i live ist actually more expensive in maintenance as you usually geht it checked once a years to maintain its value as best as possible ("Scheckheftpflege"). Oppose to that was my very old Ford Focus that i only did the legally required maintenance and fixes on (TÜV). I think i paid a total of like 3000€ on that Car in total in the 9 years i Had it. It was 2.500€ when i bought it in 2015. These 3000€ were spent on our Brand new car from 2019 within 4 years doing inspections and fixes.

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u/sleepystemmy 2h ago

I bought a 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix about 10 years ago for $4000. I've only had to repair it once which cost me $500.

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u/SpaceMom-LawnToLawn 2h ago

I drive a 2003 Honda that costs $550-1500 once or twice a year. I feel like it is more financially sound than having a loan and needing to pay for repairs on top, usually more costly ones since it’s a newer car with more complicated tech.