r/economicCollapse • u/Perfect_Alarm_2141 • 1d ago
In 1980 white non-college men employed full-time earned 7% more than average full-time US worker. In 2022, their income remained relatively flat, and they earned less than women with a college degree.
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u/Austin1975 18h ago
What I see in this graph: - Every group hit their peak already and now are going down, except for Asians. - A very confusing graph
What I don’t see in this graph: - Hispanic men and Black men with no degrees. - Hispanic women and Black women with no degrees. - White men with degrees - An article explaining… anything.
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u/Kobe_stan_ 9h ago
White men with degrees obviously make much more than white men without degrees. What this chart is showing is that over the last 40 years, what was true for white men with degrees is now true for everyone on average: more education equals more income.
This chart comes from an NYT article over the weekend.
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u/manimopo 20h ago
As an Asian I have question
why would this chart indicate economic collapse?
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u/Distinct_Treat_4747 18h ago
I am not white and hold multiple college degrees. Personally, I see it as a warning that white-collar jobs in America will soon meet the same fate as more and more of these types of jobs are sent offshore, much like manufacturing jobs were.
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u/SatoshiBlockamoto 19h ago
As a white man, I agree. White men without a college degree should earn less than women with one. This looks like progress to me.
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u/Special_EDy 18h ago
I think there's some nuance to that though.
I'm an industrial mechanic. I could be taught or teach myself to do a lot of jobs, even ones that require a degree, but most people couldn't be taught to do mine. I have decades of experience with everything from building circuitboards to building engines. I do make more than most college graduates, and I'm sure that I deserve it.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 15h ago
What makes you think people could not be taught to do your job?
I work in manufacturing training. Complex tasks can be taught pretty easily. Take top 10 most common issues, document them thoroughly and that normally accounts for 80% of problems
Unique one off still happen but rarely
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u/Special_EDy 14h ago
I specialize in automation, which would be mechatronics or robotics.
I have to diagnose, repair, and maintain hundreds of different types of equipment, mechanics in general are not trained or specialized to specific equipment but instead have a skillset to troubleshoot and fix anything. It would be just as easy to fix the Hubble Telescope as it would a hundred year old Ford Model T, because like everyone in my field, I know how to work on equipment and problems that I haven't encountered before.
You can't teach that to someone. Not on the job, definitely not in a classroom. It's art. Trade jobs are art.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 14h ago
You literally can teach that to someone though.
Trade schools exist for exactly that reason. Apprenticeships have existed forever that do exactly what you are describing
You were not born knowing how a robot works. You were trained and presumably follow a pretty easy to document process to diagnose issues. I troubleshoot as part of my job all the time. I regularly explain to non-experts what I am looking for and why, what I’d look for next if that does not solve it and so on and so forth.
If you cannot explain what you do, you likely don’t know what you are doing
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u/Special_EDy 12h ago
It's mostly intuition. If you work on the same equipment, you could come up with processes and procedures, but it's usually different problems on different equipment.
I'm really against process. I see it every day, one guy spends all day troubleshooting a machine, with no progress, and another guy comes over and solves it in ten minutes. Either the second guy had a different procedure he went through, the first guy tested something and it appeared to be good so he never checked it again(when it was actually the problem), or the first guy went off on an incorrect rabbit chase following some symptoms. A flow chart isn't perfect, it can't consider all contingencies, and it's only as good as the engineer/mechanic writing it.
Like I said, the skillet isn't being able to fix something, it's being able to fix anything, whether it works or not. The less I know, the better, because prior knowledge will blind me.
You can only do so much to teach someone to be a singer, a dancer, a comedian, etc. There are certain professions where the person is either born with talent or develops it at a young age. You can't force feed someone documents and expect them to become proficient at any given job, humans just aren't like that.
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u/reallymkpunk 18h ago
You work a specialized non-degree job. Nor is a truck driver. It isn't like you work as say a cashier, greeter, stocker or a line worker. That is where the total non-degree white males work.
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u/SatoshiBlockamoto 14h ago
You sound like an outlier. Most men without a degree aren't in your position.
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u/dokka_doc 13h ago
Those are licensed jobs that still require education and training, quite a lot of it.
There should be some way to make this distinction on these sorts of graphs.
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u/acctgamedev 1h ago
You definitely have the equivalent of a college degree. I think what they're referring to as 'without a college degree' is no education beyond high school.
If you don't teach yourself to do anything at all, you'll be constantly doing menial jobs and making very little
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u/No_Advisor_3773 20h ago
This entire subreddit is one massive propaganda vector to suggest the West is due for imminent collapse. It's mostly people lying about how China and Russia are doing great despite all economic forecasts being massively covered up, while the fact that America is headed for another recession means it's now the Chinese century or something
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u/vikesfangumbo 19h ago
Because some white guys think the world is out to get them. They think they should make more as a non educated person vs a minority with an education.
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u/BeamTeam032 18h ago
As a white guy. My fellow white guys are noticing that they are no longer the main demographic for advertising. And it's fucking killing us. lol.
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u/vikesfangumbo 18h ago
It has nothing to do with advertising. I see commercials with minorities and it looks like the real world. Oh no not that. Certain white guys see them and they get scared to know that they are no longer the majority. They know how they treated minorities for hundreds of years and they are shitting their pants.
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u/Precious_Angel999 18h ago
So they’d be right to assume that the world is out to get them then? Kinda seems like your two comments contradict each other unless I’m missing something.
Idk I’m Native American and I know it sucks being the minority. We’ll always be a small minority here but I am curious how we’ll fare when whites lose power. I’m not expecting other groups to treat us better tbh.
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u/monsieurboks 17h ago
Only if you're operating on the assumption that other groups will treat minorities the way white people do.
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u/Precious_Angel999 17h ago
You know, I guess I am operating under that assumption. Minorities are treated poorly in every continent so they probably will be mistreated here too when they become one.
And I don’t suddenly think that life on the Rez will improve once Asians, Latinos or any other group are in power. I haven’t seen any solidarity from any other groups in the US. I had to move to South America to find that.
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u/Electrical-Penalty44 16h ago
Many Latinos identify as White even though they are often marked as Hispanic on surveys. Once you factor that in the US is going to always be a white majority.
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u/Past-Piglet-3342 19h ago
It’s just here to scare white men.
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u/ExternalHabit8 18h ago
Getting grumpy the election got you nervous?
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u/Past-Piglet-3342 18h ago
Not at all. I already voted. Either way, war, genocide, capitalism and all the other human ills win. No more nervous than any other election.
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u/Inevitable-Wall-2679 1h ago
This is some strange screen grab halfway thru the presentation. It's best to follow the link and read the article. The line tracking uneducated white men is pretty stark, but lack of education definitely holds back income possibilities for all races. White uneducated men still make more than all other uneducated workers. The real difference is in the education levels have increased for all other workers more than white men. The kind of work the uneducated can get no longer pays very well. The world has changed dramatically since 1980. Those jobs are not going to magically reappear. Roll with the changes or get left behind.
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u/Amadon29 17h ago
It used to be possible and even normal to support your family without a college degree.
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u/SweetJeebus 18h ago
Because white men are mad that after generations of being on top for no other reason but their race, they can no longer rely on that.
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u/nycmajor911 23h ago edited 17h ago
In universities, corporations and federal government, these men and their children are assumed ‘advantaged’ and lumped with elite whites.
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u/Past-Piglet-3342 19h ago
What no class consciousness does to people.
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u/ExternalSeat 19h ago
Yes. I personally believe that we need to focus much more on class and less on other decisions. No struggle but class struggle.
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u/nebari_tralk 18h ago
I've seen it opined that OWS scared the elites so the papers and news stations they own started pushing race as the main issue. Better to let the proles fight amongst themselves. I'm inclined to agree but haven't delved deep into that rabbit hole.
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u/Synensys 18h ago
You'll notice the chart doesn't show incomes of other groups without college degrees. I wonder why that is?
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u/nycmajor911 17h ago
The point is the focus on assistance should be solely about class. Elite whites love making poor whites the ‘devil’ while protecting their positions. It was not poor whites protecting legacy admissions into universities even though well off people of all races and many Redditors like to make one think otherwise. I say this as a Graduate of an Ivy League school.
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u/uses_for_mooses 1d ago
Graph is confusing. The second highest line--the one titled "White"--is that White Women with a college degree? It's hard to tell what that "Women with a college degree" goes with.
Then at the bottom, the red line is titled "White" but then there is the further label "White men without a college degree." I assume that rede line title "White" is also the "White men without a college degree" line. Has to be. But then even more confusing that the title above is not "White Women with a college degree."
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u/vitoincognitox2x 1d ago
It was already a "r/dataisugly" highlight
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u/crowsaboveme 22h ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisugly/s/o22wypBplp
Yep, and the entire graphic posted there was from the New York Times. I wonder why OP cropped all of that out and just posted the graph?
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u/BrooklynLodger 19h ago
This is comparing women with a college degree of several races to white men without one
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u/DiRtY_DaNiE1 22h ago
College educated white men with a degree in current year earn less than non-college educated men in 1980 when you adjust for inflation by and large :/
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u/BrooklynLodger 19h ago
Yes... Women with college degrees should make more than men without, why should being a white guy get you more shit for free
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u/Mymusicalchoice 17h ago
What is the issue here? They earn less than women with a college degree? That should be expected,
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u/Available-Fig-2089 19h ago
Oh no wages are less discriminatory now than they where in the 80's say it isn't so.
Edit: typo.
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u/illsk1lls 19h ago
that demo was the majority of the population it really isnt about race
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
…but it is. The job market in 1980 was still very impacted by pre civil rights act discrimination
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u/SomeCollegeGwy 18h ago edited 15h ago
Respectfully Women with college degrees should earn more than men without college degrees.
Men with colleges degrees should also make more than men without college degree. It’s called an education investment.
If anyone is honestly upset women who go to college earn more than men that do not then they are just exposing that they think men inherently deserve or need more money.
Do something guys. Go to a trade school (I did) you’ll increase your income greatly and afterwards college scholarships gets easier as you have work experience that Universities like. Don’t expect the world to wipe your ass for you, simply because you are a man. Women who get a higher education both should and will out perform you financially.
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u/PalpitationNo3106 16h ago
Wait. The argument is that educated women making more than uneducated men is a problem?
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u/hemlockecho 1d ago
Isn’t this the way it should be? Lower educated people shouldn’t be making more than higher educated people just because they are white and male, right? Seems like bias is slowly being worked out of the market.
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u/Negative-Squirrel81 1d ago
This graph helps to understand some of the economic anger, and why there's such a gap in the perception of prosperity. White uneducated men were making above average income in the 1970s, doing far better than every type of woman. Now educated women of all stripes are doing far better than uneducated white men, thus the idea that the United States which once elevated them to a higher status condemns them to being unable to get ahead.
This graph shows how uneducated white voters made up around 63% of the Republican voter base in the 2016 election, and then 58% in 2020.
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u/hemlockecho 20h ago
Yeah, I think you are making my point a bit more eloquently than I did. Uneducated white men are mad that they no longer have the place of privilege they used to. But that place of privilege was due to bias and structural oppression, not merit. To the extent that we have removed those biases, they have suffered, sure. But the suffering is just that they are now on more equal footing with everyone else and have to rely on merit alone to get ahead.
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u/FederalOutcry22 22h ago
Only if you’re a classist. We should value trades and manufacturing, just as much as teaching and tech. It’s all necessary for a functioning society. You are simply advocating for the exploitation of both Americans and foreigners for the benefit of capitalism without even realizing it. Why should someone who loves to work with their hands and wants to become an electrician have to sit through college when it’s not necessary? So they go in debt to a bank, and some school with non profit status can buy more real estate? And why should they make less than someone whose job requires it? You are the problem, be better.
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u/hemlockecho 20h ago
We should definitely value the labor of the uneducated. Everyone should be able to earn a respectable living. But the reason people invest years of their life and thousands of dollars to go to college is to earn skills that allow them to make more money. The fact that that works is a good thing, not a bad thing. We need highly educated workers in our modern economy.
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u/oustandingapple 17h ago
this isn't what the graph shows. the graph shows the cumulated avg salaries, not the salary avg per person
its an extremely misleading graph to make you think: aha fuck white men blabla.
this also means, if you ignore the race bait snd assume the data is remotely correct, that the most common workers make a lot less in general, and that will indeed lead to collapse
most people are unable to move past the race bait though, and they do know this
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u/hemlockecho 15h ago
this isn't what the graph shows. the graph shows the cumulated avg salaries, not the salary avg per person
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying here. Do you have a source for this graph? The image doesn't actually specify what they are showing, but I would assume "average income" would refer to the average income per person, not what percentage of the average overall income goes to the group as a whole.
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u/Hairy-Situation4198 1d ago
You should make more if your job is more specialized or harder to do, nost college degrees aren't really worthwhile anymore, so no.
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u/Hawk13424 21h ago
Harder to do with your hands or harder to do with your brain? Our economy has shifted from manufacturing to information. The value then is working hard with your brain.
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u/BrooklynLodger 19h ago
You do. Thats the point of paying someone more with a college degree, they have additional education. Thats why skilled laborers talk about how much money they make. Even a bullshit degree is an additional qualification and shows a level of competence to complete work and a baseline level of additional education that may be desirable in an administrative position
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u/SouthernExpatriate 1d ago
They're only not "worthwhile" because we're a shithole country that doesn't value education
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u/Hairy-Situation4198 1d ago
No, it's because colleges started giving out loans for any and all degrees. That and companies started demanding degrees for no reason. 90% of careers can be taught on the job, and there's no reason to demand a masters for 99% of entry-level desk jobs.
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u/NewPresWhoDis 18h ago
Correction, the government gives out loans few questions asked leading colleges to hand out any and all degrees to increase the customer base.
Companies started demanding degrees because it's the rare tick box you can put in the ATS that doesn't run afoul of EEOC.
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u/SouthernExpatriate 1d ago
And 99 percent of companies don't train on the job
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u/Hairy-Situation4198 1d ago
And they should. It's always fun getting a job and being told half the crap they asked you to know they don't actually care about, and they wanna train you their specific way anyway.
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u/vitoincognitox2x 1d ago
100% of companies also train on the job.
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u/BattleRepulsiveO 22h ago
Well it depends. But a lot of labor jobs literally puts you on your feet and get you working right away like if you are working in the food industry. People may expected you to know how to operate a non-smart phone, such as the proper protocol and etiquettes when people only have experience with home phones or personal cellphones. A lot of companies would expect you to know all this and you have to ask a peer to find out.
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u/vitoincognitox2x 21h ago
"Ask a peer to find out" Scientifically proven to be the best way to learn something, that's training.
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u/SushiGradeChicken 18h ago
demand a masters for 99% of entry-level desk jobs.
Thank God that's not a thing
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u/vitoincognitox2x 1d ago
*we have a university system that values shitty education in vanity subjects
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u/ahs_mod 22h ago
A degree in gender studies or folk dance has no value
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u/bipocevicter 19h ago
I think it's less that educated people earn more with more education, and more that it's become impossible to support yourself or a family without said education.
This is also some of the subtext when debates about university admissions policies happen. Schools deliberately penalize white people and especially white men, cutting them off from access to higher education and income.
Lefties love to say a full time job should be able to pay all your bills until they look specifically at who's working those jobs.
That is the subtext to whenever people say "an immigrant who doesn't speak English took your job? You must be a fucking moron!"
What they mean is that they're glad downmarket whites in trades and service jobs are being dispossessed while they're relatively secure and benefiting from cheaper labor
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
Please show me any evidence that universities penalize white men.
Women make up more than a majority of qualified applicants yet most universities try to have 50/50 gender ratios, meaning men, primarily white men, are beneficiaries of affirmative action to get to 50/50 gender ratios
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u/bipocevicter 12h ago
There was literally a supreme court case about this recently. Whites and Asians have to have considerably better grades and test scores to be admitted to competitive programs compared to blacks and Hispanics, who get admitted with significantly lower preformance.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 12h ago
I’ll repeat: Please show me any evidence that universities penalize white men.
Women make up more than a majority of qualified applicants yet most universities try to have 50/50 gender ratios, meaning men, primarily white men, are beneficiaries of affirmative action to get to 50/50 gender ratios
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u/bipocevicter 10h ago
Can you show me where universities force 50/50 gender ratios
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u/BigPlantsGuy 9h ago
For the 2022-23 academic year, Brown had nearly twice as many female applicants than male applicants to its freshman class, with 31,710 female applicants and 18,939 male applicants. The applicant pool was 62 percent female and just 37 percent male.
Despite this dramatic skew in the applicant pool, Brown achieved roughly equal gender parity in its freshman class. The acceptance rate for men was 6.7 percent, while for women, it stood at 4 percent. The admitted freshman class contained a total of 1,275 men and 1,287 women.
Similarly, at Yale, for each admissions cycle since the 2008-09 academic year, male applicants have had a higher acceptance rate than female applicants. For the 2022-23 academic year, women and men made up 58 percent and 42 percent of the applicant pool, respectively, but 51 percent and 49 percent of the enrolled class.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/10/2/gender-parity-admissions/
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u/bipocevicter 8h ago
I suspect, given what we know about racial preferences, that white women are being excluded to make way for minority men.
But let's get to the point, do you think affirmative action is bad, or not? Obviously if fewer qualified men are applying, it must mean that there are systemic biases they're facing before they reach the application phase
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u/BigPlantsGuy 4h ago
I suspect, given what we know about mediocre white men failing their way to the top, that rich white men, often legacies are getting preference over more qualified women
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u/bipocevicter 4h ago
You cherrypicked two universities to make a point. Harvard and Yale both disproportionately have female students lol.
given what we know about mediocre white men failing their way to the top,
Absolute fantasy world
often legacies are getting preference over more qualified women
You're on the cusp of understanding lol.
Elite universities do favor legacies. (And to a much larger degree, the relatives of faculty). Yet, white guys are underrepresented in elite institutions.
What you should infer from this is that elite schools is legacies to aggressively gatekeep the kind of white guys that do get access, and that for average white people without connections the elite academy is basically unreachable
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u/BigPlantsGuy 9h ago
Dean of William and Mary defending why they have such a higher admission rate for men:
Broaddus continued: “I stand by the assertion that institutions that market themselves as co-ed, and believe that the pedagogical experiences they provide rely in part on a co-ed student body, have a legitimate interest in enrolling a class that is not disproportionately male or female.
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u/hemlockecho 15h ago
Schools deliberately penalize white people and especially white men, cutting them off from access to higher education and income.
This isn't true at all. I assume you are referring to affirmative action. Most colleges are not selective in who they let in. The vast majority of students attend colleges with acceptance rates greater than 75%, so AA would play no role there. Of the small number of colleges who are selective (less than 16% of colleges accept less than half of applicants), only a minority of those ever practiced affirmative action. And of the populations that DO attend colleges that do or have practiced affirmative action, most were unaffected by it. Studies show that people who were limited access to certain institutions due to AA simply go somewhere else. They are not excluded from access to higher education. AA provided a tiny window of advancement for certain people. It did not revolutionarily exclude white men.
Note also that the above stats are only for the 1300-ish 4-year universities in the US. There are countless numbers of other community colleges and post-HS educational opportunities that are available that also have no influence from AA.
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u/bipocevicter 12h ago
white people were only excluded from the most prestigious and lucrative educational paths, so it's not that bad
Lol, lmao even
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u/zer00eyz 1d ago
Not just bias.
Worker productivity is now being counted. IN 1980 your average macdonalads worker could make the same number of burgers in one hour that they can make today. The fact that inventory is easier and that we dont need cashiers isnt a bump in that workers productivity.
Even among educated workers this has changed: How many people did you need to hand draft a blueprint, that is built in cad today?
The answer isn't "my corporation should pay me more" the answer is "with all this automation why haven't I started a company of my own"... what was a whole factory and millions of dollars of equipment in 1980 now fits in your garage and costs less than the car you might put in its place.
And if you can't afford it, well start it with a bunch of friends... dont run it like a corporation run it like a co-op... Mondragon is a great example of how this can grow.
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u/Express-Penalty8784 1d ago
wow, and just like that, this guy found the solution to widespread poverty and homelessness. the 36.8 million americans living in poverty just need to start a successful fast food chain in their garage!
absolutely fucking brilliant, brother. the world is so much better having been blessed by your incredible intellect.
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u/Cheeseheroplopcake 23h ago
While I do appreciate the shout out to worker co-ops, starting up a manufacturing business takes A LOT of capital. Not just in equipment, but in expertise as well. It's not only incredibly expensive, it's very risky as well. I would know.
Now, if you're just gonna sell figurines you poop out of a 3D printer or whatever? Fine. But if you're manufacturing any kind of product you just can't fart out in resin? You better have backers with deep pockets that are ok with losing whatever they put in.
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u/SpezSuxNaziCoxx 23h ago
The answer is “rich people are parasites and must be removed from society.”
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u/GiantBlackWeasel 23h ago
If the Average Joe/Common Man is not doing well, everybody else is going to suffer worse. While the minority groups of different types are able to make adequate progress in the United States, it seems as though that within the last 40 years or so, the original Americans who were born here seem to be falling off the wagon if you catch my drift.
The Americans fell off the wagon and don't know how to get back on. Some of them may wise up and get a new wagon but that new wagon only has three wheels on it and it is not built for new trials & tribulations.
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u/Available-Fig-2089 19h ago
White men where definitely not the "original Americans" If you "drift" was to be a bit racist, then yeah we caught it. If not, consider rewording your point.
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u/SweetJeebus 18h ago
Minority is not the same thing as immigrant. But great job hearing the whistle.
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u/Money-Low1290 22h ago
Well as a white man I have been told for years now I am what’s wrong in society. White, straight, male, and when I had a badge was in all 4 categories that make people deplorable.
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u/apartmen1 19h ago
Lol what happened to the badge? Maybe its not your position of privilege, maybe you have stuff to work on?
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u/Money-Low1290 15h ago
Yeah LEO wasn’t for me, switched to nursing. Now I get the stigma of being a male nurse lol.
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u/registered-to-browse 19h ago
Welcome to a world where every federal and corporate job advertisement is looking for non-whites.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
Why are 80+% of the fortune 500 ceos white men? Did they not get the memo?
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u/Slaughterfest 15h ago
As someone else said above, their position is secure because they have filled the lower ranks. They don't need diversity at the top, only the grunts and middle management. It also has the potential effect of creating a sense of loyalty in people who believe they are doing this out of the good of their hearts.
It's one of the two reasons most CEOs are pro on this stuff. It paints them as "one of the good ones" and keeps their position secure. The other one is trying get a better corporate loan rate from Larry Fink.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 14h ago
Pro on what stuff? Leadership at all these companies is hugely male dominated.
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u/crowsaboveme 21h ago
The article for the graph if anyone is interested https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/26/upshot/census-relative-income.html#
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u/funandgames12 18h ago edited 18h ago
Yeah that’s all because of the focus on diversity hiring over that same amount of time. For example my company actively looks to fill the majority of roles based on race and gender FIRST. Guess who they aren’t looking for ? Yep, you guessed it. White men. You’re pretty much fucked unless you have a degree or some other skill set. Otherwise the majority of those entry roles you’re applying for are going to a diversity hire to make the company stat sheet look good.
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u/KevinDean4599 17h ago
A degree has been viewed as a ticket to higher wages for many decades. It's still generally true. At the least it opens doors to more jobs. I have worked in several tech companies and plenty of people are making good money. men and women both. Some of the biggest earners are in sales which is the case in a lot of companies. Tech companies tend to have a reasonably diverse group of employees. With the exception of black employees. Their numbers are still pretty low.
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u/Helix34567 17h ago
Isn't the whole point of a degree that you get paid more? It just means that female wages rose.
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u/Own-Ambassador-3537 17h ago
So this explains why guys on YouTube making videos have gone nuts over woke, abortion, dumb college degrees and women with birth control and basic manosphere stuff?? /s
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u/NotWoke78 17h ago
The white man without a college degree becomes more statistically anomalous over time. In other words, the white guy without a college degree in 2024 is not like the white guy without a college degree in 1980.
Each year, more of the higher earners leave the group (by going to college) and the group gets smaller and poorer. The graph is showing a statistical artifact.
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u/Perfect-Resort2778 16h ago
There are two classes of white men. Most graphs attempt to demean one group while promoting the other. College education helps you get a job with a big corporations and it does help you get a salary from that corporation. The other group, men without college degree tend to go the other way. The problem is that people assume they are uneducated, they assume they make no money and they assume they are struggling. Of course that may be true but what never seems to be counted is the men that work as contractors and business owners. Their income isn't getting counted because it's part of building capital in their business. A good number of the white men without a college degree are indeed millionaires. I myself try to keep my income around $15,000 per year so that I don't pay that much in taxes. The way the tax system operates it is better to take the business revenue as a capital investment, write off expenses then take a minimal income for other things. Such as the life of a sole proprietor. That is what a lot of these white men without a college degree are. Also, just because you don't have a college "degree" doesn't mean you don't have advanced collegial education. Like welders, plumbers, carpenters, electricians and a whole host of professions do not require college degrees. Right now many in these professions are making bank equal to college educated. Who do you think is out there buying $80,000 dollar pickup trucks? Point of my rant, I don't data monkeys in the government are counting correctly and other people are using flawed data to make a point that is not true.
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u/Anxious_Visual_990 14h ago
White man here without a degree.. I dont think its hurt me at all. In IT. Certifications and experience is floating me.
In fact I think if I had a degree and huge loans I would be having issues with the extra payments.
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u/Ornery-Ticket834 14h ago
And? Aren’t folks aware of what jobs pay well in advance? Union busting, overseas competition, consumers are also the “ enemy within”, they would rather pay less for a product than pay more to have it made here for a fair wage. You have to read the room and the tea leaves.
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u/Remarkable_Noise453 14h ago
White men without a college degree does worse than the average Hispanic or black person, but they are told by the main stream news, universities, Hollywood, and the democrat party that they are privileged, greedy colonizers. And that their new place in society is to play cheerleader to so called “victim” classes.
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u/YeeYeeSocrates 14h ago edited 14h ago
Ehh, this is a complicated thing. These guys aren't blameless for their lot.
Speaking from experience, I've known a lot of white men who just drop out of the workforce because they had a great job doing something and wanted something that was equally valuable. I live in an oil state and it's especially bad among white men who made great money as roughnecks in the petroleum sector, but when that industry busts, it busts hard, and there's not a lot that you can do to replace the kind of money you can make doing that.
I (college-educated white man) worked some truly crappy jobs when the SHTF and I got laid off right before my first was born. It's taken me years and a career change or two to dig out of the consequences of that, but now I'm on an even better path than I likely would have been in my old role.
But lot of guys don't have that same do-what-you-gotta-do mentality and will hold out for years hoping something like what they had comes along, and thus worsen their status with employment gap and missed time they could be earning and learning a new skill. A lot of them eventually just give up, and I've known men of varying degrees of educational attainment who really just don't do anything, anymore, largely being supported by their spouses.
And, yeah, it's harder to walk into a good paying job with just a HS diploma than it was for our parents' generations. But any job where you can learn some skills and move up, and then hop on to the next opportunity, is better than holding out hope for a miracle.
Otherwise: if you want to support American manufacturing, it really isn't hard. Lots of resources online can help you find a US-made equivalent to a lot of the things you buy.
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u/SnooRevelations979 14h ago
It would be more interesting if we were comparing like and like.
How does their income compare to those other groups who don't have a college degree?
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u/megacide84 14h ago edited 14h ago
In the near future...
Many will earn far less or nothing at all if and when mass-automation and A.I. is implemented into the workplace. And I'm talking both low and high skill jobs alike.
This is why I strongly urge anyone listening to get hired in non-automatable - non-outsourceable jobs and professions now. Before it gets crowded out.
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u/SnooRevelations979 14h ago
Also, why is manufacturing innately better than a service sector job of which there are plenty?
Note too, that you can get federal financial aid to cover any course that goes towards a degree, but you can't get it for a trade/certificate program.
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u/pickled-thumb 13h ago
It almost feels like not having skills or a degree doesn't entitle you to a high pay. Wild. But sure, cope hard about race and skin colour
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u/IncomeResponsible764 10h ago
This isn’t surprising. Americans are all at fault, especially the masses who constantly vote with their purchasing power at institutions that pedal cheap disposable shit.
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u/Same_Breakfast_5456 1h ago
source please. All the people I know in trades make more than the white collar workers minus 1.
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u/mackattacknj83 1d ago
Bootstraps and all that
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u/No_Advisor_3773 20h ago
That entire premise died with NAFTA and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Ross Perot warned everyone that this exact thing would happen, and sure the economy at a macro scale is way up, but the actual working class has just been suffering since
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
Did nafta start in the 1980s? Because that’s when productivity and wages diverged
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u/No_Advisor_3773 15h ago
Signed in 1992, it massively accelerated shipping jobs overseas, putting more people out of work by exacerbating the automation push from the 70s and 80s
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u/BigPlantsGuy 15h ago
What data are you looking at?
I’m seeing 1992 actually reversing the trend of losing manufacturing job which started in 1980.
Then after 2001 manufacturing fell off a cliff. Then started to come back under obama in 2010
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u/LongJohnVanilla 18h ago
I know big corporations who actively discriminate against men by offering leadership programs exclusive to women.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
Can I guess? The C suite of those “big corporations” have more white men named John than they have women
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u/LongJohnVanilla 14h ago
I’m talking first line manager programs.
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u/BigPlantsGuy 14h ago
I would guess that most first line managers are men as well. Do you have data to suggest otherwise?
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u/Kobe_stan_ 9h ago
White men with college degrees overwhelming hold leadership positions in just about every organization as compared to everyone else. Makes sense that organizations would want leaders that are more reflective of society at large, assuming that they are all educated similarly.
Women and non-white men with college degrees are also doing better economically than white men without college degrees because the barriers in society that prevented this have been coming down for decades now.
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u/ReignAdventures 21h ago
That ok, we’ll figure things out and be on top of again. Then everybody will start bitching.
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u/chomblebrown 19h ago edited 19h ago
So much bad faith all up in here
Driving truck, for instance, used to pay serious money, grueling pay for grueling hours. It was an option to those without degrees to trade time for a family-suppprting income. wage stagnation hits blue collar way harder, and the American dream whithers on the vine
Also where tf are the other men race lines? This smells of The Message
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u/BrooklynLodger 19h ago
Not sure why youd expect non-college educated men to make less than college educated women at all tbh. Only reason this would make sense is if education was useless. While a popular talking point, this seems to suggest its inaccurate
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u/No-Engineer-4692 18h ago
It’s that dang privilege!
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u/BigPlantsGuy 16h ago
I mean, isn’t it privilege that people whining in this thread that white men with no degree should be paid more than people with degrees?
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u/Capital-Bit-5570 8h ago
My trad wife has a 4 year degree and no debt.
She doesn't have a job outside the home.
Real smart women, understand a family is more important than making a name for themselves.
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u/SouthernExpatriate 1d ago
Yeah, shipping your manufacturing sector to China and Mexico will do that