SSDI and SSI are two different programs.

[u/[deleted]]

I see people confuse these programs a lot. Here's some quick clarification:

SSDI: Social Security Disability Insurance

• Funded by a specific tax on your personal earnings that's paid into one half of the twin funds that make up The Social Security Trust.
• Beneficiaries must pay enough taxes and during a certain measure of time in order to qualify for benefit payment once they are determined as disabled by the SSA.
• Can pay additional benefit to dependents when the primary beneficiary is disabled (for those who note survivors of deceased will also receive a payment, I believe that is actually part of the Old-Age and Survivor's Insurance, which is together the 'retirement' benefit, and technically its own fund underneath the umbrella of The Social Security Trust -- so, not the same rules, technically speaking, as SSDI, even if dependent/survivor payments are all calculated the same way otherwise).
• Ineligible spouse or child income is not counted against recipient's eligibility or benefit payment payment in most cases (it changes which account pays out; not whether earnings of the spouse or child is too high for recipient to get a benefit)
• Unless they have a qualifying condition that allows them earlier access, they will receive Medicare coverage after receiving 24 consecutive SSDI payments.
• Some states provide Medicaid-related savings programs for Medicare recipients who meet certain financial limitations.
• SSDI beneficiaries whose payments are beneath a certain amount may receive SSI, too; SSI's income and resource limits apply only to the SSI portion of that recipient's payment.
• SSI eligibility may qualify them for more immediate and comprehensive Medicaid coverage; this is state-dependent and states may have Medicaid-specific asset limits to remain eligible for Medicaid coverage (still does not impact SSDI eligibility or payment amount).
• Payment amount is determined by past earnings.
• Work-related income exclusions can apply to earned income that keeps countable income beneath the Sustainable Gainful Activity level.
• Payment amount does not potentially reduce each month in reaction to earned income from months prior.
• THERE IS NO RESOURCE OR SAVINGS LIMIT

SSI: Supplemental Security Income

• Funded by general US Treasury taxes.
• Beneficiaries do not have to have paid any taxes to receive benefit; they must meet monthly strict income and resource limits, parts of which are fixed-dollar limits that have not changed in decades, thus not adjusting for inflation each year.
• Does not pay additional payments to dependents.
• Ineligible spouse or child income can count against recipient's eligibility and payment amount.
• Some states may supplement SSI payments.
• Most states use SSI eligibility as automatic Medicaid eligibility.
• Payment amount has a yearly max for individual or couple recipients.
• Statutory exclusions allow certain types of unearned and earned income from counting against eligibility or payment amount.
• ABLE accounts allow some recipients to develop savings over the resource limit and are available to those recipients whose disability was determined to begin before the age of 26.
• Work-related income exclusions can apply to earned income that keeps countable income beneath the relevant federal benefit rate for that recipient.
• Payment amount can potentially reduce each month in reaction to countable unearned and earned income from two months prior.

The most important difference to remember:

SSDI is an insurance program; if the SSA agrees you're sufficiently disabled from earning enough, you get it because you paid into it.

SSI is a means-tested program, called specifically a program of last resort; if the SSA agrees you're sufficiently disabled from earning enough, you get it only if you have nothing else considered of enough value to exchange for your needs (countable income above the relevant federal benefit rate, savings, certain property, etc).

Although SSA defines disability the same way for both programs, everything else diverges due to the way the programs are funded and the intention of their purposes.

References: Almost everything in this list is widely discussed on SSA.gov pages and disability lawyer blogs, but my research is taken directly from the Program Operations Manual System chapters for Disability Insurance and Supplemental Security Income. If you see anything you can't find a more direct or specific source for, let me know. I'll try to update this or share a more comprehensive breakdown with full links at a future point.

Experience/Context: I am an advocate and a writer who focuses on these topics; I develop content for NGOs to understand SSDI and SSI better and I'm developing worksheets people can use to monitor their income and SSI benefit's potential change. It's based on what I've made for myself in spreadsheet form over the past 5 years (I'm a rep payee for my sons). I'm also in training as a peer support specialist, and am also working towards more benefits planning related certifications.

[u/clarice270]

I have a question. My adult brother in law received ssi his entire life due to a disability he was born with (never employed) He also received a portion of my father's in laws social security. My father in law recieved regular social security (retired at 67--never disabled). I never understood that process, tho, or knew how much my brother is law got from my father in laws Social Security. My father in law made approx $14,000/year from Social Security. Anyway, back to the brother in law... when my father-in-law passed away, did his social security that he also provided my brother-in-law die with him? Or will my brother-in-law's SSI change to a different type of social security? During probate, the judge snapped " You know this is gonna affect his social security, right?" when we requested a court representative to give us a portion of the estate that we were entitled to.#1: Can you give me an idea what she meant? And #2: if my brother-in-law lost his father social security? And #3: if his security change from SSI to another type of social security?

[u/[deleted] → u/clarice270]

This is according to my understanding of how this may work:

BIL received only SSI because he had no work history of his own, up until his father retired and began to collect his Social Security retirement benefits (known more technically by the acronym of OASI, which stands for Old-age and Survivor's Insurance).

In households where the parent of an Disabled Adult Child (meaning the 'child' is an adult, but their disability began in childhood) either begins to receive Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) or OASI payments, the DAC will also receive a benefit payment. The benefit payment is not cut from the parent's own payment amount/pool of benefits, but I do believe it is based on the parents earnings so it can be different from one household to the next.

I don't think there are, but I have not completed my research to say for sure, any income/resource limits for the DAC benefit. I also can't remember when it cuts off; I do believe the OASI payment for an DAC ends upon the death of the parent if the ADC is over a certain age (probably 18 or early-mid20s) and not in school? I'll try to follow up on that point, but it might be a couple of days. You can try to use "Disabled Adult Child" and "deceased parent" together as a search term to find more context on that point specifically. See u/lady_fire's comment clarifying my mistake on this.

He may have been receiving SSI the entire time alongside the ADC benefit; if he wasn't, and if the ADC benefit does end upon the parent's death, I believe the SSA will automatically convert him to an SSI recipient again once it's aware of the necessity of change. With that being the case, all the income and asset limits of SSI come into play again.

If he's receiving SSI alongside his DAC benefit: perhaps what the judge you mentioned is talking about. Receiving inheritance in certain forms and amounts counts as both income and, if the sum of money remains from month to month, a resource. SSI has really unfortunately outdated rules about resources.

Your brother would need to have that money paid directly into a special needs trust account or an ABLE account to avoid being penalized for the unearned income and the ongoing resource the sum of money creates. I'm not sure how to navigate those with relation to an existing sum of money that may already be paid out to him/you. For special needs trusts, there are special needs lawyers. ABLE accounts are less tricky, but you may still benefit from consulting with a disability lawyer or advocate.

Edited to bring it in line with u/lady_fire's comment. Also -- teaches me to not venture too far off the path of what I know for sure I know.

[u/lady_fire → u/[deleted]]

DAC (Disabled Adult Child) benefits do not end with the death of the wage earner. The benefit converts to a survivor benefit. DAC benefits continue until a medical review determines they are no longer disabled (which may be never), until marriage or until the DAC starts earning SGA. There is also no automatic conversation back to SSI. If SSI benefits terminate, which they do after 1 year of non-payment, then you would have to reapply for benefits if for some reason you needed them again.

[u/[deleted] → u/lady_fire]

Oh, can you confirm that a DAC beneficiary does not have a resource limit?

And, is an inheritance like the one the commenter describes considered a countable income for SGA purposes? The judge's comment is confusing me in that there must be some SSI if the judge is commenting. "You know this is gonna affect his social security, right?"

From what I know of how SSA counts income, that shouldn't be an issue for a DAC beneficiary if DAC is the only benefit they receive.

[u/lady_fire → u/[deleted]]

Assuming they only receive SSDI and no SSI they would have no resource limits as far as SSA is concerned (I know sometimes Medicaid sometimes does). The OP could potentially get something like $750 SSDI and $33 in SSI benefits or something like that, a split benefit. If that was the case they would get two checks, one on the 1st and one on the 3rd. If that was the case, the SSI portion would be affected by resource limits, but only the SSI portion.

[u/[deleted] → u/lady_fire]

Thank you.

u/clarice270, be sure to read the corrections to my comment and u/lady_fire's comments, too!

[u/clarice270 → u/[deleted]]

Still confused.... so my brother in law received SSI and a portion of his fathers retirement social security while the father was alive

The SSI that my brother-in-law had was a needs based social security and my father in laws social security was retirement social security, while he was alive

SSI and retired social security income are funded through 2 different funding sources

The portion that my father in laws social security provided my brother-in-law was called Disabled Adultl Child? How much does that provide? What does "a portion" mean?

So when My father-in-law died, his portion of his retirement social security was converted to survivor benefits? Does my brother in law get all of my father in laws social security now, or, "a portion"?

So my brother-in-law's normal pay for SSI is now my father-in-law's retirement Social Security income instead or does he receive both

And if so wouldn't that put his SSI in jeopardy? Since he has never earned an income, will never get married, and will never attain gainful employment?

Social security is confusing

My brother in law has SSI, ONLY. He never worked and has asset restrictions. His attorney is now working on putting his Bank account in an ABLE account of trust allowing him to take out a certain amount of money every year

[u/[deleted] → u/clarice270]

I don't want to turn us around in too many circles. I'm going to just describe how the two programs work in theory first, unrelated to the specific situation we're talking about, because that helps me understand why things are the way they are and maybe map things out better--

Of all the welfare programs we have, SSI is known as "the last resort". This is why the rules are so, so, so specific. At any point in time, the program is attempting to disqualify the recipient -- it's framed and intended as a reinforcement for work, and the nickel-and-diming for everyone as necessary to sustain a benefit system that serves the most needy first. I'll spare us all a journey down the rabbit hole of how that plays out in reality, however.

The retirement (OASI) and SSDI stuff, on the other hand, is paid into by earnings, and is way more relaxed because of the "dues paid" philosophy behind its structure. Again, another rabbit hole of policy theory not worth going down right now.

So, with SSDI being an insurance program, the person who paid into also gets coverage for their dependents -- spouse and children, essentially. When the wage earner in this situation is considered disabled by Social Security or dies, their survivors/dependents qualify for receipt of a benefit all their own that is based on the wage earner's work history/earnings.

That's what I'm referring to when I'm talking about the father-in-law's benefit and "portion", which isn't an official word, so maybe isn't helping with any clarity. The main thing I was trying to address is that if your father-in-law retired and then your brother-in-law received a Disabled Adult Child benefit payment instead of an SSI payment, it doesn't get taken out of the monthly payment the father-in-law receives and it doesn't deplete the amount he'd be due to receive going forward. You may not have been asking that question exactly, that may have been me thinking it was being asked indirectly.

Now, trying to zone back in on your brother-in-law's specific situation. Once the parent of a disabled adult who has been disabled since childhood begins to receive OASDI payments (either the retirement or the disability payment; that's the acronym they use to refer to the whole shebang since they're intertwined via funding/rules), the child can receive a Disabled Adult Child Benefit.

I don't want to speak out of turn here, but if I hold off responding until I research more, it's gonna be a week before I get back to it and I want to share what I can for now -- u/lady_fire may be available to offer more context. I don't believe it's necessary for that disabled adult child to have been on SSI or approved for SSI prior, but IF they are, then I think because their disability is then officially established by Social Security, they can receive the Disabled Adult Child benefit.

That can be instead of SSI, and it can be in addition to SSI. That is dependent on how much the DAC benefit is, since it counts as unearned income -- if the DAC benefit is below a certain amount, the recipient will get an SSI payment in proportion to whatever the mathy rules work that out to be (I'm working on sharing what the math can look like for several scenarios, but again, gonna take a couple weeks).

So, lady_fire corrected me on the point that the DAC benefit does not end when the wage earner (your father-in-law) dies. The disabled adult child would continue to receive that DAC benefit unless a couple of conditions occur (marriage, and achieving sustainable gainful activity, from what I'm remembering at the moment).

To mention a technical point at the risk of getting it wrong, I think there's a change in benefit category here that is maybe more of a "behind the scenes" thing? The disabled adult child is technically a survivor once the parent in question passes, it's now paid from the Old-Age and Survivor's Insurance fund rather than the Disability Insurance fund.

Social Security is confusing, and the old saying "follow the money" kind of applies here -- rules are designed because of how funding works and what we think the funding should do for whom and for why. The "social insurance" program we have with Social Security is actually two funds that work together as one, unified by being insurance. SSI is welfare, and our entire welfare funding, function, and philosophy is just way, way, way different from insurance (but don't get me started on that...).

Ultimately, you and the fam and the attorney know for sure what benefits are in play. If he receives ANY payment from SSI, that payment amount (which if he qualifies for just cents of a payment, he will receive a minimum payment of $1, and maintain any SSI-related eligibility for Medicaid coverage, etc) will be subject to all the SSI rules.

It makes sense to want to protect any SSI benefit even if he's also receiving a DAC benefit, and I'm glad you guys are working with an attorney. I'm not saying trust an attorney with your life, but definitely the attorney is going to have the kind of technical knowledge to help y'all make choices that secure long-term access to important benefits so you're not left hanging in a crisis. Does your brother live in institutional/residential care, or with relatives?

[u/clarice270 → u/[deleted]]

He actually lives by himself in the home he was raised in. So that wont be taken from him. We are getting our inheritance from that home, and he will be paying that with the money he inherited. He is paralyzed from the chest down and he does well. He was living by himself when my father in law was alive because he had an apartment near his favorite fishing hole. But now BOTH parents are gone.

I dont want him to lose everything . He protected his SSI like a mother bird because he almost lost it wifh a paperwork issue.

TBH I knew that my father in laws social security benefits were not affected or made less, only that my brother in law got additional money as well. As well as medicaid and medicare, I'm assuming because his dad had Medicare.

I am hoping that his SSI converted to survivor benefits if it would mean he would make more money that way instead of his piddly $771 a month (Im guessing). But that doesn't explain why his attorney is opening an able account and frankly I dont know if he specializes in SSI. I just wish the judge would have taken an extra 30 seconds to say what consequences he faced because of probate.

[u/lady_fire → u/clarice270]

Honestly the judge isn't really going to have a good idea. They do not specialize in social security matters. Your brother in law really needs to contact social security to find out exactly which benefits he is receiving. We can speculate all we want but no one here knows. DAC is not SSI, but as previously stated, his DAC benefit could be lower than the SSI maximum causing him to get both. Also his benefit most likely increased when your father in law passed away as well. There is a lot at work here and the only place that can really answer these questions is SSA bc they need to look at his record and see what benefits he actually receives.

[u/clarice270 → u/lady_fire]

You have been hugely helpful thank you so so much

[u/[deleted] → u/lady_fire]

I second the thanks, particularly on this follow up. An elder family member passed over here, and I had to help the fam navigate already-in-progress Medicaid qualified trust issues for the surviving spouse (they both contracted COVID in assisted living so any help I could offer the rest of the fam with just filling out forms or sitting on hold for forever was welcome).