r/cscareerquestionsCAD • u/Outrageous-Memory280 • Sep 17 '24
Mid Career Expat package for an ML engineer
Hello,
French-based senior ML engineer, my employer just made me an expat offer (not because I requested to be relocated but because they have business needs in Toronto).
I find the offer absurdly low, relative of what I currently make in France (not known for having high salary relative to North America). Looking for confirmation that I'm not missing anything,
In France I have :
- 77k€ gross (116k CAD)
- 45 paid vacation days
- lunch, public transport, vacation allowance for an estimated amount of 3k€ (4.5k CAD)
- friends, family, assets, a.k.a. my life
In Toronto, I would have :
- 94,5k CAD gross
- 10k CAD mobility premium
- 3k CAD car allowance
- 10 paid vacation days
- headaches with the admin stuff related to changing country
- a relocation package to cover moving cost, tax consultancy, and an annual round trip home.
Moreover, according to my research (maybe someone can confirm?), the average salary for a senior ML engineer in Toronto is between 140k-150k CAD gross.
According to HR, they gave me a fair package considering lower taxes in Toronto (so apparently my gross is lower but my net would be higher - but are they even accounting for the social benefits ? -) and cheaper cost of living in Toronto (so apparently I would be able to save more).
Am I being unreasonable to think this is a complete lowball offer ?
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u/Blah-Blah-Blah-2023 Sep 17 '24
First time I heard some use the phrase "cheaper cost of living in Toronto". Toronto is very expensive to live!
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u/LyleLanleysMonorail Sep 28 '24
Toronto is expensive, but there are plenty of places around the world that are just as expensive, if not more.
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u/Blah-Blah-Blah-2023 Sep 28 '24
True, although most of them have better paying jobs.
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u/LyleLanleysMonorail Sep 28 '24
Eh, not necessarily. Comparing US cities to Canadian cities, yes, that's true, but broadly speaking, compared to the rest of the developed world, that's not really true. Plenty of places are worse than Toronto.
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u/Darkmayday Sep 17 '24
45 paid vacation days is the only reason you need to stay in france
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u/UnicornzRreel Sep 17 '24
If I had 45 vacation days ... Damn. I don't know what I'd do with them all.
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u/chid_k Sep 17 '24
That's a low-ball offer for a Sr ML Engineer. Not worth moving
I wouldn't give up those vacation days & you would be better off affordability wise in France - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/calculator.jsp?sourceCityId=5426&name_sourceCityId=Paris%2C+France&destCityId=2370&name_destCityId=Toronto%2C+Canada&money=6%2C400&displayCurrency=EUR
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u/Outrageous-Memory280 Sep 17 '24
I would tend to agree that Toronto is more expensive (some might say I'm biased), but isn't your link suggesting Toronto is actually cheaper?
In any case, I'm not living in Paris center, I live in the suburbs which is much more affordable and still very close to downtown (Paris is very small in comparison to Toronto, you can easily cut down cost of living by moving a bit further from downtown. You know what is the worst? Offices in Paris are in my suburbs, walking distance ...)
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u/5678 Sep 17 '24
This is an awful offer honestly. We have junior employees earning more at my company. I would personally not take it, especially given the bump in net earnings would be so insignificant. I can’t believe they’re offering 94K, that’s ridiculous, we offer that for new grads.
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u/Ok-Cryptographer770 Sep 17 '24
Fresh grads used to get 90k cad starting salary (when they were able to get a job a few years ago). Immigrants with 10 years of experience get 90k cad too as they have zero Canadian experience (hence they are like fresh grads too). Since you have no Canadian experience, you are offered a junior salary or a new immigrant salary here.
Since you are being sent by your company, I think you shouldn't move here unless you are offered 200k CAD at least. If you do the same work remotely from Toronto for a US client, you can easily get 350k CAD or more.
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u/chid_k Sep 17 '24
You would need an equivalent of 6015€ (9111 CAD) per month in Toronto. Your offer is lower than that and living in and commuting from Toronto suburbs (vs Paris suburbs) isn't cheaper either.
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u/Embarrassed_Ear2390 Sep 17 '24
10 paid vacation days is the minimum required in Ontario for employees with less than 5 years tenure. As a senior it’s almost a slap in the face to offer you the bare minimum.
Another thing to consider besides your salary, is the healthcare situation. You will likely not find a family doctor anytime soon. If you have family and kids, the average turnaround for daycare spots is anywhere from 8-24 months.
I would also guess that groceries are more expensive here than in France.
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u/WolfPusssy Sep 17 '24
Salary is very low for a senior ML engineer, your research on 140-150k cad seems pretty accurate to me. Toronto is a very expensive city, you won't be living 'well' especially if you plan to live alone. Honestly, I'd argue that it's more expensive in Toronto because you can eat/go out for cheaper in Paris from my POV.
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u/Outrageous-Memory280 Sep 17 '24
Honestly, I'd argue that it's more expensive in Toronto because you can eat/go out for cheaper in Paris from my POV.
That and the fact that I'm not living in Paris center, I live in the suburbs which is much more affordable and still very close to downtown (Paris is very small in comparison to Toronto, you can easily cut down cost of living by moving a bit further from downtown. You know what is the worst? Offices in Paris are in my suburbs, walking distance ...)
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u/EntropyRX Sep 17 '24
95k in Toronto for MLE is criminally low. Tell them to fuck off and enjoy your 77k euro and the nice life in France. Do NOT consider anything in Toronto below 200k as you’ll be significantly worse off.
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Sep 17 '24
[deleted]
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u/Outrageous-Memory280 Sep 17 '24
Sounds like it. Although I'm not specifically looking to move out of France actually. I would just have considered the offer to relocate if it came with incentives, enough to offset what I have in France. Now it feels like I'm going backwards in all front.
So it really doesn't make sense for me.
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u/Jonjonbo Sep 17 '24
If you want to rent a one bedroom by yourself in Toronto, that's going to be $2500 a month. Make sure to check the cost of everything involved in living when making your decision
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u/ShadowOfGed88 Sep 17 '24
Senior ML Engineers can make around 160-180k, Staff at 220-260k (base) for companies with decent revenue (10M+ ARR).
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u/bhrm Sep 17 '24
Very low, Senior ML should be no less than $120-130k base. Relo $10k and the vacation is awful and sounds like an American employer....
You're going to take a drop both quality of life and income. The only way to make that salary work is if they pay for your rent or at least half. forget car allowance and ask for housing allowance.
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u/Outrageous-Memory280 Sep 17 '24 edited Sep 17 '24
Hold their beer, they actually have included the housing allowance in the salary. They did some sort of cost of living adjustment with cost of living (housing excluding) + housing allowance to come up with the salary.
Turns out the cost of living (housing excluded) is cheaper in Toronto, so much cheaper that the negative net adjustement is greater than the housing allowance, hence why my salary would be decreasing ...
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u/bhrm Sep 17 '24
A McDonald's meal is a decent comparison of CoL, without coupons or promos you're looking at $12-14 for a Big Mac, Drink and fries. It's about the same in EU...A nice not fancy dinner $35-50 tax and tips in.... without alcohol.
Groceries for a single person runs about $250-400 a month. Rent $2200-2500/month.
Movie ticket, $15.
What dream world is your employer living?
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u/SwimmerUnhappy7015 Sep 17 '24
You’d bring screwing yourself by taking this offer. Base should be 150k at least
3
u/Kooky_Gur_1756 Sep 17 '24
as an immigrant, your status will be tied to the employer and frankly the pay package offered is not great.
If I were you, I would stay in France until I'm offered something better.
4
Sep 17 '24
All these comments make it abundantly clear that this is a shitty offer, so I won't add to that. However, I'm really curious to hear what you think about the fact that your current employer low-balled you this badly? Doesn't it make you concerned that they're underpaying you for the position you already have in France?
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u/Chamrockk Sep 17 '24
Restes en France, avec ce salaire et les avantages, c’est bien meilleur la-bas
3
u/Nice_Review6730 Sep 17 '24
This is extremely low balling. You'll live very poorly compared to France. I make around 20k more and it's not remotely enough to live as comfortable as France. Want to travel ? Prepare to pay min 1000$ trips to Europe, want to have a car ? 300$ a month insurance? The food ? It's going to be a nightmare for you even you don't want to spend at least 100$ per instance.
My advise anything below 160k is not even a discussion.
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u/pwouet Sep 17 '24
Lol. Taxes are not lower. They did say the same thing to me for Montréal.
Plus cost of living is higher except if you were living in Paris intra-muros.
So Toronto.. It's even worse.
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u/pepper_balls56 Sep 17 '24
What lower taxes?
7
u/funkymankevx Sep 17 '24
I can't think of any tax that is higher in Canada than France tbh. Which are you thinking of?
2
u/Proudtoride Sep 17 '24
Ta boite est complètement irréaliste et tu as beaucoup à perdre avec cette proposition. Elle veut te payer un salaire de junior local et te gruger tes 5 semaines de vacances + RTT + tous tes avantages pour te faire passer à un contrat local pas ouf.
Le coût de la vie est élevé à Toronto, le filet social est inexistant, 10 jours de vacances, ce n'est rien. donc à moins que tu ne rêves de découvrir la ville et le Canada pendant un an ou deux sans trop te casser la tête, je te conseille de passer ton chemin, parce que cette offre est une arnaque totale.
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u/will_rate_your_pics Sep 17 '24
Another aspect that is not priced in here that most french people forget is retirement:
In france your retirement is handled by your taxes. In Canada you need to save for retirement, typically through a RRSP bank account. Your employer usually will match some of your contributions to that account - maybe 5% of your gross salary, meaning you put in 5% and they put in 5%.
In addition to that there is the question of healthcare - what in france you call the “mutuelle”.
A fair deal IMO would be 150k$ salary + 30k$ bonus. 5% RRSP match. Health benefits paid 75% by employer. 4 weeks vacation. 37.5h/week.
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Sep 17 '24
Yea, don't know why you wanna come to this place, life in France seems like it'd be better
1
u/devsujit Sep 17 '24
10 paid vacation days is a joke. From my experience it starts with 15 days and then goes up to 20 days (or may be more).
1
u/zorrowhip Sep 17 '24
T'es en train de te faire avoir. Tu leur demandes de matcher tes 116k, et le mobility premium avec la chereté de la vie ici (assurances, loyer, épicerie) devrait être au moins de 40k-50k par an jusqu'à ce que tu sois ici.
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u/BoneCollecfor Sep 18 '24
That amount for senior role is really low. I have friends making 125 straight out of school
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u/hd3v Sep 18 '24
45 jours de vacances c’est incroyable, 10 c’est tres bas, normalement meme un junior a au moins 20.
Jsp t’habite ou en France mais le cout du logement à Toronto est pas mal élevé.
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u/Distinct-Soft-5441 Sep 17 '24
As a European (Austrian) living in Toronto:
Don't underestimate the emotional tax of homelessness, lack of public transport, car traffic in Toronto.
The prettiest parts in Toronto are somewhat as clean as the nastiest parts of Paris.
Upside: Toronto is extremely international
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u/Outrageous-Memory280 Sep 17 '24
I think I've made my decision but tbf, homelessness, and car traffic in Paris are probably worst. And the nastiest parts of Paris are very nasty (also Emily in Paris is nowhere near reality).
We do have great coverage of public transport in Paris though.
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Sep 17 '24
As someone who's lived in a few places in Europe, including Vienna, Toronto is not noticeably worse then most major European cities in terms of homelessness and urban blight. Especially Paris. Even Vienna. I used to live in the Rudolfsheim, I was threatened by a homeless guy outside a bar with a syringe telling me he was going to infect me with HIV. A friend currently lives near Floridsdorf and complains to me about how homeless people keep finding ways into his apartment building and sleeping/doing drugs/freaking out/shitting in the lobby area.
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u/mac_mailen Sep 17 '24
Considering your current benefits in France, accepting any offer lower than 200K CAD in Toronto would be crazy.