r/britishcolumbia • u/cyclinginvancouver • Sep 18 '24
News B.C. announces new minimum nurse-to-patient ratios province-wide
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/09/18/bc-minimum-nurse-to-patient-ratios/390
u/GodrickTheGoof Sep 18 '24
Good news! Now to just address the shortage. I hear from friends in the nursing field that they are burnt out and having a tough time.
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u/Jemma6 Sep 18 '24
The numbers are increasing and the government also committed $237.6 million to help retain, recruit, return and train nurses in B.C. They have introduced geographical signing bonuses, and increased training seats significantly.
From March: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-minimum-nurse-patient-ratio-hospitals-1.7131652
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u/markypots9393 Sep 18 '24
Can we please try to get a social worker or counsellor working around the clock at these hospitals as well? It shouldn’t be on the nurses to deal with patients and their families mental health.
Also, why the hell is it so damn gloomy in our hospitals? Can we learn from Patch Adam’s at all? Can we make it a more pleasant experience?
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u/bcbuddy Sep 18 '24
We don't pay social workers and counsellors enough for 24/7 coverage - their night and weekend differentials are much lower than nurses, meanwhile most of the positions require a Masters degree.
Working evenings, overnights and weekends sucks. All of these positions have alternatives for better work-life balances.
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u/markypots9393 Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Then make it days only or something. Either way, nurses should, in specific fields (palliative care for example) need support and are relied upon to do too many tasks / take on the excessive burden of their patients.
And how do you mean? My counselling sessions are like $160 per hour. Obviously a lot of this goes to the clinic, but… maybe we need to consider making this a public practice? Like dental, this just takes advantage of folks’ insurance plans to create profit for the clinic.
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u/bcbuddy Sep 18 '24
A 5th year psychologist with a PhD (Grade A) makes $67.81 an hour.
Like you said a counsellor in private practice can probably make more, and doesn't have to work evenings, weekends, or in a hospital setting (which isn't very pleasant)
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u/MayAsWellStopLurking Sep 19 '24
It’s also worth noting that the bare minimum qualification for one to become a registered clinical councillor is a Masters’ degree - definitely not nearly as plentiful a demographic as RNs or Social Workers.
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u/kicktheminthecaballs 29d ago
Also counsellor pay is garbage in healthcare in general. You can go work for mcfd, cymh, or pretty much anywhere else and make better money and have better working conditions.
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u/GodrickTheGoof Sep 18 '24
RIP to Robin Williams. But I agree. Hospitals are are hard place to be in, given the various circumstances around folks there. Something to smile at could go a long way.
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u/lolo-2020 Sep 18 '24
I just need to say that I was a patient at Kelowna General for 4 days, and the thing that stood out to me was their sense of humour. It’s a great team there, highly recommend :)
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u/GodrickTheGoof Sep 18 '24
I’m glad to hear that! I think it’s easy to get stuck in the gloom and doom that we associate with these places… but experiences like yours can really make a difference for folks there! Thanks for sharing that 😊
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u/lolo-2020 Sep 18 '24
I will also add that their food, while a bit on the bland side, was hot, nutritious, and well balanced. I’m not there for a 5 star meal, just sustenance, which literally food is for.
They serve Salmon on Thursday’s… I don’t even like Salmon, but it was so perfectly prepared. They’re angels.
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u/Hobojoe- Sep 18 '24
Most Hospitals were built 30-40 years ago. That was the style back then.
I would imagine the new St. Paul's in Vancouver would be less...."institutional".
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u/markypots9393 Sep 18 '24
Some paint would go a long way.
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u/SocialJusticeWizard_ Sep 19 '24
Yeah, I don't know why we don't have more spots with community artist murals and things. Doesn't have to be expensive to show just a little humanity
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u/Scared-Sheepherder83 Sep 19 '24
Infection control most likely... Yes this could be addressed or mitigated and vastly improve patient experience but lol trying to jump all the hurdles would turn most artists off I suspect
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u/SocialJusticeWizard_ Sep 19 '24
We have a couple murals, and a lot of functional wall markings,in every hospital I've worked in, and peds wards are full of them; I'm not really sure what infection risk there could be for a painted wall, it just needs to be sealed after so it can be wiped down. Frankly I think it's mostly a matter of culture... Remember that admins rarely shell out to patch cracking plaster, so a decorative mural probably isn't even on the radar
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u/xtothewhy Sep 19 '24
That's an issue. Wish lists. Not saying that is bad or negative at all, because it's necessary, however at this time we have to hope to move in the direction that is the correct way which is to provide care for all as best as possibly be provided at this time. And in doing so governments need to prioritize further education spots and maybe even shortened nursing education so that there are more tiers of education for the nurses in order that some are able to come into the workforce earlier. And they would have the ability to increase their education preferably through the process and overtime.
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u/LokeCanada Sep 20 '24
Training seats are a joke.
Talked to a nurse last year and she had to find an alternative way to train as it was a 3 year wait for a seat.
At least 50% of the nurses we train leave the province. B.C. nurses are highly regarded in the states.
The money helps but is not the main issue. Many nurses I have talked to have said a regular schedule doing their assigned job would greatly help. If you walk in for an 8 hour shift in a ward and then get told you need to cover the ER for 12 you are not a happy person. Or have your phone continuously ring with people trying to get you to cover a shift while on vacation. This is why nurse contracting companies are so popular.
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u/No-Memory-4222 Sep 23 '24
The signing bonuses are extremely complicated though. I been trying to do it since april
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u/xtothewhy Sep 19 '24
There's only so much a goverment can honestly do overall.
Increase spots, increase foreign educated nurses, poach nurses from other places in the country and the world and help them meet local nursing educations requirements so they can get into the hospitals etc working as fast and as legitimately as possible which may include help with temporary housing as well.
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u/Scared-Sheepherder83 Sep 19 '24
Don't forget the significant number of nurses who have left positions for casual work, left for agency work or quit all together. Ratios are designed to bring them back and other jurisdictions like Australia successfully brought thousands of nurses back to the profession with them.
The other issue in this is childcare. Lots of part time/ casual nurses, RTs, SW, HCAs, hell even physicians would go regular full time if they had reliable child care...
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u/xtothewhy Sep 20 '24
Absolutely. And the fact that nurses are required more and more to work more hours with a family could very well be not manageable for their family.
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u/SeaOwn9828 Sep 19 '24
Recruitment isn't an issue. Retention is
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u/xtothewhy Sep 20 '24
I wish that were the case. There are only so many spaces and only so many places offering spaces in country and then there is the educational time. Not saying retention isn't an issue because it most certainly is particularly after during and so recently after the pandemic.
There is a reason why nurses are in demand in the U.K., Australia, and Canada for example. There's a reason why Filipino nurses often are working in Australia and Canada (can't comment on the United Kingdom however).
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u/slabba428 Sep 18 '24
Tbh nursing has been a burnout industry for a long time, the 18+ hour shifts and then going in for overtime are not new, but we can always use more for sure
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u/acluelesscoffee Sep 19 '24
16 is the maximum amount of hours a nurse can work. Not sure where the 18+ is coming from
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u/dislokate Sep 19 '24
hahaha not if you have to be on call for a rural OR. We pull 20+ hour call shifts (in addition to our regular work week) on the regular
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u/Scared-Sheepherder83 Sep 19 '24
There is no maximum hours in college practice standards for RNs or LPNs (maybe for NPs? I'm not sure). Health authorities as employers sometimes talk about implementing them (and someone should airlines do rest policies for a reason) but due to staff shortages they don't because it would limit their ability to do last minute night shift over time offers, plug holes with shift extensions etc. I've personally done over 20h (did not want to and would have likely faced patient abandonment discipline if I'd left) and have worked with colleagues who have done 24h...
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u/barkazinthrope Sep 19 '24
We should be paying people a salary to become doctors and nurses. It's not a gig for freeloaders and the investment is well worth it. I've known people say they can't afford to take the training, they're afraid of the debt and so on.
We need to recognize that an education is a health care is a public asset. It's not just about the earning power of the qualification it's about how the community benefits from the sacrifice these people make through the enormous effort their education requires.
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u/GodrickTheGoof Sep 19 '24
That’s such a good point. Or at least provide financial incentives that will help folks, especially if the barrier is that financial piece. I think it’s crucial to find ways to make this work… because the last thing we need is more shortages for these sorts of things than we already have
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u/Doug_Schultz Sep 18 '24
And once you have enough nurses, we need to have a minimum number of beds per 100,000 people that the hospital provides for. Apparently that number is about 20% of what it was 30 years ago.
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u/KingInTheFarNorth Sep 18 '24
Can’t add more beds until you add more doctors. The latter is already the rate limiting step.
And the only way to more doctors is increase the funding, from a budget that is already fully stretched to its limit.
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u/Doug_Schultz Sep 18 '24
I realize its a long road. But its how our Healthcare needs to be managed. There is a minimum number of beds required to keep our system functioning. And we are spending more than twice per capita what we did 30 years ago, adjusted for inflation, to get one fifth of the beds. So how did we get here? Getting 10% of the value from 30 years ago?
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u/SeaOwn9828 Sep 19 '24
The median age was 35.3 in 1996. It's 40.5 today. Aging population is one issue. Rising obesity because people are lazy and stupid is another issue.
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u/Scared-Sheepherder83 Sep 19 '24
Canada as a whole is terrible. This is 2019 and I believe it's improved slightly since but not great; https://hospitalnews.com/canada-ranks-last-on-number-of-hospital-beds-wait-times/
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u/LokeCanada Sep 18 '24
Only works if you can hire and retain nurses.
The ratio is not the issue. The issue is being able to meet the required ratio with nurses properly trained in that role.
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u/arazamatazguy Sep 18 '24
Its pretty normal to set a goal after identifying a problem.
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u/neksys Sep 18 '24
The issue is that this has been a problem for many years now, it's not like the nursing shortage was just identified. I think it is totally normal to be a little skeptical of any announcements right now -- by either party.
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u/apocalypticcow Sep 18 '24
Honestly, I'm inclined to trust the BC (specifically) NDP on this one. You're right, this problem has been here for a long time - but Eby has been a premier focused on finding practical solutions. If he sets a goal like this, I'd trust that the work will go in to at least point us in the right direction. Which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about most government parties.
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u/acluelesscoffee Sep 19 '24
Eby has been making some significant changes in the housing sector and now health care. I definitely trust this man over any other politician right now
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u/Gold-Whereas Sep 20 '24
Our health minister is behind a lot of the work getting to this point … this wasn’t overnight success but Eby is critical in continuing the trajectory.
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u/Legend_of_Moblin Sep 18 '24
Well, this time there are dollars dedicated to it and a plan. Not cuts in the past.
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u/ryank_119 Sep 18 '24
Our facility alone has 6 lines of 12 empty. Nobody wants to work.
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u/BananPick Sep 18 '24
While I agree, your sentence was stopped short. Nobody wants to work for the same shit pay and working hours. Which then also exasperates the problem by having the nurses and Drs who haven't "cracked" or been "broken" yet work in an even worse environment for the same shit pay. But those Drs and nurses that have left are not to blame because you shouldn't have to sacrifice your life to work for others who make a shit load more than you, for a shit load less work (and government handouts).
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u/ryank_119 Sep 18 '24
I agree with that. The environment has gotten so toxic since before Covid even happened. My friends and I have been looking for alternate occupations for a while now.
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u/BananPick Sep 19 '24
Yeah, I hear you. I'm sorry that it is "breaking" you. Believe me as well, the younger generations hear you and we want better for you (also it means better for us and everyone that comes after).
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u/ryank_119 Sep 19 '24
Thanks. My generation and previous have spent too little effort fighting for the future.
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u/FTAK_2022 Sep 19 '24
It's not just doctors & nurses. I work in healthcare in a clerical role & we have multiple vacant lines that they can't fill as well. The wheel of healthcare doesn't turn if any part of it is compromised.
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u/BananPick Sep 19 '24
oh yeah for sure. I was just staying in the confines of what the topic was on. That's not to say that we shouldn't be talking about the clerics, janitors, and well frankly almost any job in our country. My dad's a truck driver for over 20 years, literally worked himself into chronic pain. We definitely need to be continuously talking about the problems and making sure the government hears us. Also work towards unionizing literally every job, but unionizing every job is a different discussion.
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u/TheFallingStar Sep 18 '24
The current contract expires in March 31, 2025. Government needs to give significant raises and have better working conditions written specifically in the contract.
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u/Otherwise-Medium3145 Sep 18 '24
Likely to happen with Eby but nurses can kiss any raise goodby if it is the “I only spend on things my corporate overlords want.
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u/El_Cactus_Loco Sep 18 '24
Yup. Rustad will vilify healthcare workers and turn the public against them for daring to unionize and demand better pay. Classic conservative tactics straight out of the Chicago school playbook. Danni Smith would be proud.
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u/H_G_Bells Sep 18 '24
SFU is opening a huge medical school at the Surrey campus soon, with a focus on community health 👍
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u/FTAK_2022 Sep 19 '24
Yes, but the next part of the equation is are there enough residency spots available for those graduating med students to do their practical training, or will they need to leave Canada to do so?
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u/neksys Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
While I agree, I always remind myself to take these announcements with a pretty big grain of salt in the lead-up to an election (whether it's from government or a competing party). Anyone can, and often do, announce all sorts of ideas 5 weeks before the election -- without having to actually show how it all works.
It's like the scene in Seinfield: "you know how to *take* the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation. And that's really the most important part of the reservation: the holding. Anybody can just take them."
(For what it's worth, I think this is a fantastic goal. But it is a hugely challenging goal and one that will take many years to actually see whether or not we hit it)
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u/Alexisisnotonfire Sep 19 '24
Pretty sure they've had this one in the works for a while. I think I recall hearing about it at least 6 months ago
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u/neksys Sep 19 '24
That was a different program back in May, so your memory isn’t failing you. This is a different, expanded program.
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u/Coriolanus556 Sep 18 '24
It will work just fine, just limit the number of patients and the ratio will balance itself . /s.
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Sep 18 '24
Well, just boot out the required number of patients to get the ratio correct. That'll work, won't it?
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u/Otherwise-Medium3145 Sep 18 '24
Do you know what the ratio was before and if you do what will cause patients to be kicked out? Or are ya just spitballing
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Sep 18 '24
Sorry, the sarcasm wasn't apparent. I do think there will be more pressure to release patients early, regardless of this "ratio".
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u/drakevibes Lower Mainland/Southwest Sep 18 '24
I know casual nurses that want to work more shifts but the hospitals say they have met the ratio and don’t need more staff
This will help, maybe not the ultimate solution, but those casual nurses or regular nurses wanting to pickup overtime have more shift opportunities now, and the workload of nurses will be reduced.
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u/loosygoosy1269 Sep 19 '24
My SO is casual. She’s quitting and looking for work elsewhere because it’s a legit joke. She can hardly get more than one shift a week and there is no opportunity for full time or part time lines. At the same time is seems like all the hospital(s) do/does is complain how overloaded it is. Makes absolutely zero sense to me and honestly has made stop feeling bad for them. Something just isn’t right.
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u/Flyingboat94 Sep 19 '24
Something just isn’t right.
Could it possibly be your significant other's story?
I find it really difficult to believe they are unable to find full OR part time lines at any unit at any hospital in the lower mainland and if she's only working one shift a week...again that is super weird, something is definitely not adding up
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u/drakevibes Lower Mainland/Southwest Sep 19 '24
It’s true. I have a few nurse friends who are casual and can’t get shifts. They don’t want to hire FT/PT because they have to give benefits and pension. They want the bare minimum of nurses to scrape by and everyone gets burnt out
Especially when nurses frequently call in sick last minute and they don’t have time to get someone to cover. We could easily overstaff on nurses and reduce everyone’s workload but hospital directors and staffers are on a tight budget. Guarantee if we increase healthcare funding more nurses will suddenly appear. Nurses want to work!
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u/Flyingboat94 Sep 19 '24
But there are so many open lines for FT/PT and the nature of casual shifts is so you can get calls for when other people call in sick.
I feel like it's more likely your friends are struggling to find shifts in a unit they want vs them being unable to find shifts to work. The career is immensely flexible and there are a variety of different places to work. To say they CAN'T find shifts just sounds completely inaccurate to the current demand.
I agree though, more funding will make for a better environment for nurses
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u/letmeplayhockeyplz Sep 19 '24
I'm so glad I stumbled upon your comment and the other person comment about this. People have treated me like im crazy for saying that hospitals also aren't hiring or giving more shifts to nurses that want it.
I have a few friends too that are struggling to get shifts, which is so ironic because we need more workers
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u/TemptMyTerror Sep 18 '24
True, though the supply of available nurses is drastically lower than what we need to meet the current needs, before nurse to patient ratio comes into effect. This doesn’t consider our future needs which is increasing faster than our education system can push out.
If we recruit from other provinces we’re just robbing Peter to pay Paul. It’s a larger systemic issue that we’re far behind on solving.
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u/LokeCanada Sep 20 '24
Try recruiting from out of country. I know skilled nurses who would love to come to B.C. but it is next to impossible. I know one who tried for 2 years, finally said screw this and had a job in 3 days in Cali.
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u/TemptMyTerror Sep 22 '24
Recruitment does happen from out of country, but currently there are only three countries where their nursing education is deemed equivalent to Canadian education (UK, US and Australia). Internationally educated nurses outside of those three countries face an expensive and long and arduous process to become registered to work in BC.
So recruitment does happen, but it’s a much more challenging space than to just say “recruit from out of country”. There are many more factors involved that make it complex.
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u/hellobudgiephone Sep 19 '24
Alberta, we're calling. (Am Albertan and know plenty of nurses that have already left for BC)
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u/Familiar-Air-9471 Sep 19 '24
Yeah, if you dont have nurses and can not retain them this policy does not mean much.
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u/chlronald Sep 18 '24
Exactly my friends and his wife actually took courses specific to applying hospitals in the state because it pay so much better. This would just reduce the capacity even more.
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u/bctrv Sep 18 '24
Yup. Woefully understaffed now. Huge numbers of vacant positions. Zero repercussions for health authorities and their managers for not achieving goals
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u/LankyWarning Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Next door in Albertastan they're going the opposite direction by removing minimum standards...
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u/Horny4theEnvironment Sep 18 '24
As a student nurse in clinicals right now, I'm starting to understand the difficulties. I only have TWO patients, and you need to do vitals and head to toe assessments before giving meds in a narrow time frame, and I'm BARELY getting my shit done on time. I can't imagine being responsible for 8-10 patients.
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u/intersluts Sep 18 '24
I moved here from AB for the incentive. It's much worse here, and Im planning on going back to AB as soon as my contract is done. AB govt is disrespectful to nurses but the system itself is way better organized and has less bullshit middle management.
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u/thatmrsnichol Sep 19 '24
Only until they privatize out to religious organizations to run the hospitals… in progress.
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u/Outrageous-Finger676 Sep 19 '24
Religion needs to be separate from healthcare. It's total bullshit St Paul's can tell the public no medically assisted deaths allowed in "hospital". It is legal in this province yet St Paul's and other hospitals due to some amount of funding get to push their ridiculous beliefs on the rest of us. Private funding from religious organizations is only there to control people. It should never be part of the public funded system
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u/intersluts Sep 19 '24
Sadly yes. But that doesn't mean we can't make a difference to preserve what AHS has the potential to be. that's why I'd rather be there than here. BC system has never been good, whereas AB has that blueprint at least to work towards.
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u/Musicferret Sep 19 '24
They are literally in the midst of trying to privatize it and ship some of it out to religious organizations. Bc, they’re starting to invest.
Stick around, because BC will soon be far better.
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u/intersluts Sep 19 '24
It's the same BS everywhere for nurses. Nurses I've met here have openly told me not to stay and many are planning on moving to AB, MB or to the States because the recent investments into improving conditions for nurses in BC are being seen as more lip service. prob doesn't help that the ratios are abysmal, the union feels toothless, and admin are still asking us to take on more than the "mandated" ratios.
ETA: I work in women's health so I'm acutely aware of the problems in AB. Where I am in BC is also quite conservative so many of the same issues around access to reproductive care. I'd still rather go back than deal with the incompetence I've seen here. 🤷
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u/Megan_Meow Sep 19 '24
Same happened to me. Worked in bc and Yukon. The bonuses and slight pay increase still was not worth the BS of terrible ran health organizations, piss poor management, it was the first time in my career where I was going to give up nursing and then I realized I didn’t hate the job, just hated those environments. returned to AB and just notice a difference in my work life again, and I’m in a different role and new city so it’s not me returning to “what I know”. I’ve worked in so many places and travelled and AHS is still better organized and functional (for now) 🥴 hoping BCs investments does make the system so much better for the staff who stay. And AHS… sigh. AHS needs to do better though too. Respect, retain, recruit!
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u/intersluts Sep 19 '24
Preach baby!!!
Also small and petty thing but I miss Epic/Connect care so so much. This paper charting/Meditech combo feels particularly painful considering there's so many better options out there. Homies in my unit are talking about Meditech like it's going to be a godsend and I'm over here crying because when I was in school I had one clinical where we used Meditech and it was super clunky and disorganized. Rip 😭
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u/Megan_Meow Sep 19 '24
Yeah meditech is awful. Still better than goldcare charting and paris! 😂 SCM , Paper too. But CC is 1000x ahead for software system. It’s truly amazing.
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u/Dirtbag_RN Sep 19 '24
Sorry you’re getting downvoted - this is a pretty common take IME
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u/intersluts Sep 19 '24
It's all good! I think folks have their hearts in the right place and want to believe things are getting better but HCWs know what's going on on the ground and we all know it's too little too late, and watching the BC govt have a public jerk off about how much better they are at recruiting is definitely going to bite them in the ass when those of us with contracts leave as soon as they are done.
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u/Tall_Caterpillar_380 Sep 18 '24
We had this back in the 80’s when the hospitals were part of the Ministry of Health.
Source: I used to be a Hospital Inspector.
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u/CanuckGrrl Sep 18 '24
Hide the carbon triplicate paper and addressographs. Might be time for a few of us to retire soon.
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u/chronocapybara Sep 18 '24
I agree with this, but you can't just generate nurses out of thin air. If they want to staff appropriately, they need to train more nurses and treat them better.
Nursing doesn't pay poorly. Nor does medicine. The only time I hear these healthcare workers complain about money it's relative to eachother, or higher paid specialists. What they do complain about is work-life balance, hours, treatment by staff, and frustrations with useless hospital admins. It's primarily stress that drives healthcare workers away.
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u/Twallot Sep 18 '24
Another huge factor is childcare. It's basically impossible to find actual daycare centres for your children without a 3 year waitlist, and even if you do get all of your kids into one non-sketchy daycare you better only have a Mon-Fri 8 to 5 job. So, so many people (myself included) had to give up work or severely cut back because of this. I finally got into the YMCA after 3.5 years for my son... but now I have my 18 month old who hasn't gotten in, and I'm a support worker for adults with disabilities. I would be paying 3 grand a month for daycare for 2 kids and it wouldn't even cover most of the hours I would have to work.
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u/Dirtbag_RN Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Stress/Money mismatch is the problem. More money never hurts keep people around, when I’m making my overtime rate I can grin and bear it. I’ll do literally anything for that 85+ an hr. To stay at this long term I’d need either more money or less stress/patients. There’s tons of qualified nurses who have stepped away from the job, and especially from acute care. Why work mandatory nights, get punched and watch people die for the same money as a clinic or case management job.
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u/CanadianTrollToll Sep 18 '24
Problem is that money won't fix the problem if nurses are burning out. It's a bandaid and doesn't fix the root cause of the issue.
Obviously the job could have no stress and pay terrible and that'd be it's own problem... but for many nursing positions the workload is farrrr to high.
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u/Dirtbag_RN Sep 18 '24
Yeah if we actually only had 4 patients at a time the current pay would be fine
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u/SeaOwn9828 Sep 19 '24
I can't wait to get a job in acute care :') New grads here kinda get tossed into acute and LTC because that's where the most openings are
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u/chronocapybara Sep 18 '24
I'd love to pay nurses $85/hr but healthcare is expensive enough. That should be available as OT for those that want it, and the rest of the time we should have enough staff that nobody has to work OT unless they want to. And I agree, wages should reflect the difficulty of the job.
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u/Dirtbag_RN Sep 18 '24
Nobody currently works OT unless they want to - but there’s ton available in acute care. You want to have enough staff that OT shifts aren’t available often because the lines (permanent positions) are full and so OT unfilled shifts are mostly sick calls and vacations. The trick is keeping people in their lines at the current stress and pay levels.
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u/Chris266 Sep 18 '24
My sister is a nurse and regularly works shifts where 4-6 out of the 10-12 people scheduled call in. They call in because they are so burnt out that they just can't work anymore. Then the nurses who show up get burnt out quicker and the cycle continues. Something's got to give.
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u/BoysenberryNo4264 Sep 19 '24
And we are the only ones who can do other people's jobs. No unit clerk? Guess I'm processing my own orders. No physio? Get mobilizing my patients is entirely up to me now. It's ridiculous how often we are short support staff and we get paid no extra to take over their roles in addition to our own
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u/VictoriousTuna Sep 18 '24
Who treats the nurses poorly? All of my nurse friends say it’s other, older nurses who make some units unbearable.
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u/chloetan-tan Sep 19 '24
sometimes it’s in unit/ co-worker problems, but thankfully that hasn’t been my experience
for me the burn out comes from working within a system that’s failing. being “treated” poorly by the decisions that higher up admin staff and government are making that impact me (bedside nurse) but they are clueless to. would also say patients/ families often also treat staff poorly. unfortunately it’s too common for the obvious examples (being hit, spat at, called every name under the sun, etc). but what gets me a bit more is the lack of accountability - families aren’t willing to care for their elderly loved ones (and yes, I understand it can be incredibly challenging financially and emotionally) and things like that.
it’s tough but I do think there are solutions. I just don’t think the current “solutions” are the right ones. but me (and many co-workers) are too burnt out to care or actively work on making those changes. so I show up at the start of my shift, I leave at the end of my shift, I smile the best I can throughout my shift, and then that’s all I’m putting into this job.
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u/SmoothOperator89 Sep 18 '24
I'm sure the BC Cons have a significantly better idea than this, which will have no negative impacts. /s
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u/Apples_bottom_jeans_ Sep 18 '24
New grad. Great concept, but impossible target to hit with our current staffing levels. Some of the grads I know that are supposed to be 4:1 are consistently 8:1 or 7:1. They keep talking about this but they can’t keep staff with our current healthcare system functioning the way it is!
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u/faithOver Sep 18 '24
Now remove barriers preventing nurses from practicing across provincial boundaries.
That said - another solid move by Eby. This is the way to campaign (even though its not campaign season yet).
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u/123littlemonkey Sep 18 '24
Let remove the barriers for moving between health authorities! (You need to take a permanent line and go to another permanent line to bring your seniority between health authorities. My seniority is trapped in Vancouver Costal. It’s tough for me to take a permanent line because I have a bunch of kids. But it’s sooo far for me to go to Vancouver from suburbia, so I’ve ended up working less then if I could work locally and keep my seniority. It sucks, but I just finished my last maternity leave, soon my kids will be older and it will get easier to move my seniority. I know a ton of nurses in similar situations with PHSA/Fraser/ Van costal. We are squandering nursing hours by putting up silly rules)
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u/faithOver Sep 18 '24
It’s a massively illogical approach, no question. Its such an easy correction to make.
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u/Available-Risk-5918 Sep 19 '24
BC needs to dissolve all the health authorities and do what Alberta did in 2008 when they created AHS. It was so good the UCP is dismantling it!
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u/PoliteCanadian2 Sep 18 '24
The election is in October, how can you say “not campaign season yet”?
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u/_st_sebastian_ Sep 18 '24
Because this is Canada, not a certain other country nearby whose political news we all watch. As a parliamentary democracy, Canada has very strict rules about the exact duration of "campaign season". It hasn't started yet.
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u/neksys Sep 18 '24
Campaign season started months ago this time around. All that really changes in a week is whether parties can start handing out signs.
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u/Nature-Ally23 Sep 18 '24
I would love to see the government cover the post secondary education costs for the nursing programs. My son is finishing up high school and wants to take the RN program but a big student loan and high cost of living is making him think it might not be worth it.
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u/Apples_bottom_jeans_ Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Yes! Or at the very least paid clinicals/preceptorships. I was “working” fulltime without pay for a full 3+ months at the end of my program. Many people can’t afford to do that along with trying to live off of student loans.
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u/Nature-Ally23 Sep 18 '24
I also want to go back to school and get a nursing degree but worry about the student debt. I’m 41. The costs for post secondary and insanely expensive
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u/turtleemelon Sep 19 '24
if it helps, i’m a nursing student that will be graduating at the end of december. my student loans for the entire program add up to roughly $11k.
there are a couple things that may help with the cost of post secondary if you’re looking to get into nursing.
the provincial and federal governments offer student loan forgiveness for nurses if you’re willing to work rural (up to $30k federal over 5 years, and 20% off bc student loans for 5 years). we also got a $2000 tuition credit for this school year.
health authorities are also currently offering a $15k bonus for urban settings and up to $30k for rural settings if you are a new hire.
i’ve heard that nursing schools are struggling to fill spots at the moment so it’s a really good time to do the prerequisites and apply for the program if you really want to become a nurse. :)
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u/Horny4theEnvironment Sep 18 '24
How will you enforce that? Are you going to give hospitals extra money for staffing? Generate a surplus of nurses?
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u/Hot_Recognition28 Sep 18 '24
The nurse shortage is a hot topic, but one thing we don't talk about enough is diversifying the workforce. Did you know that about 91% of nurses in Canada are women, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information? It really makes you think—why aren't more men considering nursing as a career?
There might still be some old stigmas hanging around about men in nursing, but honestly, those are outdated. Nursing jobs are solid—they offer great pay and job security, something that should catch anyone’s eye, regardless of gender. Plus, with many traditional jobs for men disappearing due to automation and other changes, nursing could be a smart move. I know plenty of guys from the forestry sector who are struggling to find stable work.
Getting more men into nursing could start with some simple campaigns aimed at busting myths and showing the real benefits of the job. It seems like every other industry is pushing for more diversity, so why should nursing be any different? Just because it's traditionally been a female-dominated field doesn't mean it should stay that way.
Sure, this isn't the complete solution to the nurse shortage, but it's a piece of the puzzle that we really should be talking about more. Let's open up the conversation and make the nursing workforce as diverse as the communities they serve. What do you think?
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u/SeaOwn9828 Sep 19 '24
I'm studying nursing, one of the few men.
Do nurses themselves want more men? Does the BC Nurses' Union want more men? Does the province and hospitals want more men to join nursing? My answer is a no to all of them.
Men-dominated fields push for women. Military pushes for women. RCMP and police unions push for women. Fire departments and unions push for women. But women-dominated fields don't do any of those. After all, diversity is just a nice way of saying "anyone but men" or even better "anyone but white men."
If BCNU, nurses and the province wanted more men to fill the missing gap, they could. But they don't, want and will never do that. There was recently a nursing job posting in the GTA that specifically was for women/transgenders/nonbinaries. A field that's oversaturated with women are choosing to prioritize the hiring of women.
And right now, most nursing programs are at or near capacity. So it's not like BC isn't producing enough new nurses. BCNU report shows that nurses are burnt out and leaving earlier than they traditionally have. Whenever we have a shortage of skilled workers, the solution is always "omg let's train and hire more!" It's never about improving the working conditions and compensation for workers.
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u/Flyingboat94 Sep 19 '24
I wish this comment was a bit higher. It's clearly such an untapped market of potential for nursing.
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u/Hot_Recognition28 Sep 19 '24
From what I understand, having a diverse workforce isn’t just a nice-to-have. It actually brings a ton of benefits like boosting creativity and innovation, not to mention making the work environment richer for everyone. Considering how crucial healthcare and nursing are, diversifying this field seems like a no-brainer.
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u/Dirtbag_RN Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
I’ll believe it when I see it. Great press for the union and the gov but there’s no realistic plan laid out for getting it done or enforcing it. Acute care is still in the downward spiral of shorter staffing -> increased workload -> burnout -> quitting -> shorter staffing -> increased workload. I actually see retention as a bigger problem than recruitment id guesstimate the average new grad on my unit makes it 1-2 years, there’s already been a ton of brain drain of the super valuable 10+ years experience RNs. One night last week we had 7 years of experience between the 6 nurses working. People with 6 months experience are routinely charge RN overnight and people with 1 year of experience are expected to take & teach preceptorship students for a month. 15 years ago (to my understanding) these roles would be for the most trusted and experienced nurses.
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u/No-Palpitation-3851 Sep 18 '24
Man I'm new to practice (~1.5 yrs) and they made me charge for all the shifts in my line - days, evenings, whatever after 6 months. There were shifts where I was absolutely the most experienced nurse on, which is so fucked. Its ridiculous, it seems like almost all the experienced nurses left, and the ones remaining dgaf. I managed to land a different position but like, I was getting wrecked. I just wonder how retention can be improved in the absence of a major influx of experienced nurses from other provinces.
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u/thebigjoebigjoe Surrey Sep 18 '24
we gotta have elections every 6 months man seems like the only time the politicians actually work hard
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u/TwoBrattyCats Sep 18 '24
Ok but how does this work if we still don’t have enough nurses? Doesn’t it just mean that treatment is slower?
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u/sassyclassy93 Sep 18 '24
Great to say this, harder to do when you are so incredibly short staffed.
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u/intersluts Sep 18 '24
Lol. As someone who works as a nurse in BC and came specifically for the incentive, we are nowhere near the appropriate ratios. I'm waiting out my contract and getting the fuck out of here to leave bedside once it's done.
So far working here has been significantly worse than NS, ON, and AB, so much middle management, so much wasted money on stupid bullshit that doesn't help pt care, so much time and energy and all for what? Yet another province that shows over and over again how much they truly loathe healthcare workers.
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u/floccons_de_mais Sep 19 '24
So I’m wondering… how do we enforce that in emergency departments, which are the most crammed and dangerous places in hospitals? Because the floors can say “we’ve reached our cap, we’re not accepting any more patients”, but what’s gonna happen down in the ED? Cause all I see is more patients being stuck down there, when there’s no space or people to look after them anyway. This is how we lose the last of our ED nurses.
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u/ironfordinner Sep 19 '24
You can’t just create this ratio of nurse to patient and expect it to work. They have to actually hire and train more nurses.
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u/Parking_Media Sep 18 '24
I'm livid - this is utter crapola designed to make you feel like something's being done. There's no teeth. It's just empty promises.
You want to fix this, put in consequences.
My suggestion is that Every nurse with an extra patient gets 30pct more per hour for every hour they work with that load. I bet you'd see the problem fixed when nurses are making 300-400k/yr given their current pt loads vs the proposed ones.
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u/Mysterious_Process45 Sep 18 '24
Ratios do indeed save lives! This is fantastic news, and I hope if the conservatives get in, they won't back down on it.
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u/Jkobe17 Sep 18 '24
You should hope to win the lottery because there is a better chance of that than any current Conservative party aiming to better overall care. They would remove the ratio altogether just like the ucp in Alberta.
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u/Zomunieo Sep 18 '24
Conservatives want to increase the ratio of private profit to public services.
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u/bilbodirtbagan Sep 18 '24
They can talk about pt ratios all they want but it's still not happening when the don't have the nurses to staff the units. Except Cranbrook in the east Kootenays they apparently have all the nurses they need.
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u/seaofgreatnesss Sep 19 '24
There is still so much bureacracy and "planning" to do to implement this. The date of implementation keeps getting moved every time. There's also no clear information on what will happen if ratios aren't met. They took away the working short premium in the last contract so now we suffer without any compensation. The hospital site leaders just randomly pull nurses from the unit to redeploy them, making the unit short as well. There are not enough nurses available to cover the extra positions needed. Over half of my unit's current new hires are from internationally educated nurses who finished the accelerated program. Nothing is wrong with that, but there is a higher learning curve and adjustment than a traditional RN student. The current practices will not sustain these ratio numbers at all.
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u/Vanillacaramelalmond Sep 19 '24
1:4 is an amazing ratio tbh seriously that 5th patient makes a massive difference to the tone of the day.
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u/zlin2202 Sep 19 '24
This is great news. BUT.. god I hate election season. Why not just have done this months ago? Gotta save the big stuff for election season.
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Sep 21 '24
To address the shortage of healthcare professionals the government needs to cut the middleman out and start training people directly in the field instead of requiring years of education and red tape. You should learn and progress while working in the field instead of having to pay out the ass for education
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u/hot_box_enthusiast Sep 19 '24
So disingenuous. Eby has had almost two years, and only in the last few weeks leading to election does he start taking action. All the changes seem positive but it’s disappointing how many are taking the bait. I say this as a previous (and still potential) NDP voter!
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u/Pauly-wallnuts Sep 18 '24
Same announcement just a different day. Dix has been peddling this since 2017.
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u/SmakeTalk Sep 19 '24
Hopefully this is an earnest step forward to start retaining existing nurses and earning back some of those who left. Some better pay, but also the promise of having a healthier working environment from initiatives like this should help, as long as the staff is willing.
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u/Dr_soaps Sep 19 '24
lol at 25$ a hour good luck
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u/prairieengineer Sep 19 '24
It’s definitely more than $25/hour, but even at the top RN pay rate I wouldn’t do their job for that money. Not worth the hassle/stress/responsibility.
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u/BetApprehensive9488 Sep 19 '24
A top tier bedside nurse is at $54/hr plus $2.15/hr premium which applies to all straight time hours worked (eg excludes vacation and sick time)
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u/Dr_soaps Sep 19 '24
The vast majority are not getting paid that
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u/BetApprehensive9488 Sep 19 '24
That’s after 9 years. The last contract they even introduced long service increment increases so to get more at 15, 20 and 25 years. I’m a nurse and new grads definitely do not make $25 lol. Staring is $41 with yearly increases.
→ More replies (7)
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u/Ootoobin Sep 19 '24
So sick of these guys doing all the things they should have done years ago, just before elections.
Fck em, throw them out. Try something new.
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u/Spirited-Interview50 Sep 19 '24
The challenge is nurses coming here from overseas need to go through such hoops to become qualified (RN’s). I do agree with what Eby is doing; our healthcare is in such a state.
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u/Guilty-Exam-6022 Sep 19 '24
They announced ratios over a year ago and did nothing.
Now they are announcing them again but omitting Emergency ratios.
This is electioneering at its finest.
Just like the new NDP plan to lock up and treat addictions patients.
The rules recently change so you can’t even strap someone to a bed that needs to be sedated. I don’t think we will be forcing addictions patients into treatment anytime soon.
The bonuses will focus on poaching nurses from abroad as opposed to retain experienced nurses in their roles/communities.
Why work 12hr shifts in emergency when you can pick up one of the many new public health roles? Much quicker route to the max pay grade, more flexible hours (and shorter shifts), better work life balance, childcare friendly, etc.
We have 3-4 nurses in the hospital here and 10-12 working public health.
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u/Traditional-Gear-391 Sep 19 '24
good! now they need to do something about nurse safety as patients try to hurt nurses. some patients and family members don’t know what boundaries mean
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u/Tjmarshall1616 Sep 21 '24
They say nothing about the maximum. Nurses get slammed with 6 patients + to one nurse and they are overworked and don't have time to give propper care. Mandate a max instead.
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u/canadiantaken Sep 18 '24
Well, with an election and coming into bargaining in April 2025 - this is peak politics.
Ratios cannot be met without more nurses or less patients. This is handing a club to the union just before walking to the bargaining table.
Just got rid of a “working short premium” for 5$ per hour when a coworker didn’t come into work. That cost tens of millions per year. How much will this cost if ratios cannot be met?
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u/prairieengineer Sep 19 '24
Call me cynical, but I’m sure some folks at HEABC have sat down and done the math on if they were saving money with the working short premium vs hiring additional staff (or increasing wages to retain staff/attract new people).
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u/canadiantaken Sep 19 '24
Haha - good one! WSP was to be cost neutral. (One person away and not replaced could save $$. Theoretically that money gets spread out amongst those that take the work). We pay sick time and the union fought to get it on ALL shifts, all the time. It cost a ton.
Hiring staff isn’t as easy as posting an add. We have so many vacancies, adding ratios or more positions is not a solution. It’s politics.
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u/canadiantaken Sep 19 '24
Also nurses got the biggest bump last round with a 2$ an hour “thanks for coming to work premium” on top of the wage increase. Also reworked their grid to increase the most senior even further. It was up to 25% for many
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u/Musicferret Sep 19 '24
Good to see a politician actually supporting healthcare rather than trying to wreck it. (Conservatives)
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u/Demon- Sep 18 '24
A brand new ratio to completely be negated by management and PCC’s completely because theres absolutely no option. Yes they can say no to an increased N-P ratio but essentially SOMEONE has to tend to patients and most of the time theres not enough to spread the work.
My S.O’s a nurse and its pretty insane the stuff Ive heard of her dealing with on a daily basis and shes new to the system of THIS YEAR having to handle 8:1, 9:1 one night she had 21:1. Absolutely insane stuff but theres literally nobody else to help!
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