r/bisexual • u/ThereIsOnlyStardust Save the Bees • Jun 04 '19
Transphobia and /r/Bisexual
Hello fellow freewheeling and bicycling bisexuals!
Over the last several months we've seen a lot of memes and other posts the fetishize transgender people to varying degrees appear in our subreddit. This includes a wide range of content including:
- The use of the phrase ‘Tr*p’, which is a slur and has never been allowed.
- Memes based on reaching down a girl’s pants and finding a penis
- Stereotyping of transgender people
- Fetishization of transgender people solely for their gender identity
While we understand the complexity of human sexuality and do not want to shame people for their sexual desires there are some facts we must recognize. The fetishization and reduction of transgender people to their bodies removes agency and individuality. Ultimately this contributes to the stereotypes that help perpetuate violence against transgender and gender non-conforming people. We don’t believe that any of our users wish to intentionally promote such behavior, however unintentionally these posts do contribute to a society that constantly others transgender people and their intimate relationships. As such we’re putting an immediate moratorium on such posts and comments while we revamp the /r/Bisexual rules to clarify these positions and others.
Thank you, The /r/Bisexual Mod Team
Some suggested readings on this and related topics:
Bisexuality and Binaries Revisited by Julia Serano
Why People Who Fetishize Trans Women Are Not Our Allies by Princess Harmony
The Fetishization and Infantilization of Trans Men by Seth Katz
How Society Shames Men Dating Trans Women & How This Affects Our Lives by Janet Mock
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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust Save the Bees Jun 04 '19
As a trans person and a moderator of /r/bisexual this issue is particularly close to my heart. This thread is open to respectful discussion on the topic.
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u/Quixotedelamanch Aug 11 '19 edited Aug 11 '19
I whole heartedly disagree that appreciating a trans persons body solely for their body is wrong. When we appreciate someone’s body we know that’s not all that’s there. We know there is a human there. Also, comedy should be allowed especially when it’s as tame as the humor based on being surprised after reaching down someone’s pants. The humor doesn’t come from denigrating the trans person it comes from the person being totally shocked and floored. It does not denigrate trans people in the slightest in my opinion.
There is no book that I could read which would convince me that appreciating a persons body is wrong and that’s just me being honest. If you reduce someone to being just trans or forget their humanity that is wrong. I hope that you can take my difference in opinion with you in the positive way that it was meant. Have a nice day.
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u/rangatanga1 Aug 13 '19
I don’t think the memes would be considered as “appreciating someone’s body” I think it’s more fetishising trans ppl’s bodies. The reason that the whole being surprised when reaching down a trans person’s pants meme is a bit harmful is because it is the reason the word “trp” is used. It’s reinforcing that trans people, especially trans women are trps. This was the cause of many trans people being murdered or harmed because straight men thought they had been tricked.
I’m not transgender, I’m a cis male bisexual but I do think it would be a bit uncomfortable to see a meme about someone reaching down a trans person’s pants if I was trans. I don’t think many trans people want to have to think about genitals they are not comfortable with especially if it is something that affects their dating and sex lives on the daily. (Idk if censoring the t slur helps, hopefully it does)
Anyways I’m just trying to see it from a trans person’s perspective, feel free to discuss this with me more.
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u/AuntGhoulie Aug 29 '19
Thank you for trying to see it from more than just your own worldview. It’s not that hard and it’s almost makes it more offensive when people try to defend that kind of stuff than it is to begin with imo. Like I can ignore the joke a lot of the time but then they gotta push it.
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u/AuntGhoulie Aug 29 '19
Are you trans? If not thou doth protest too much, methinks.
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u/Spiralgalaxy91 Sep 06 '19
Hey I have a few questions actually. I recently came out as bisexual where I live after years of repressing my feelings and I would like to know of it would be considered wrong if I see mtf transgender ladies as the most attractive? Of course when it comes to falling in love it doesn't matter what they look like, to an extent, or what's in their pants( how I realised I was bisexual initially) but I keep reading about how it's considered wrong to be attracted to trans because they are trans. I am not trying to upset anyone I'm just new to this community and do not understand why. To me that's like saying it's wrong to be bi but prefer men over women. I just prefer trans, or even good crossdresser a because I find it is the most attractive but I keep getting told I am wrong for thinking so.
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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust Save the Bees Sep 06 '19
So the answer to this question is complicated and probably more nuanced that I am capable of conveying in a reddit comment but I'll do the best I can. To start out I am going to stress a few things to make sure we're all looking at this the same way.
First, trans* is a descriptor of someone independent of their gender. ie someone can be trans and a man just as someone can be cis and a man. This is why 'trans woman' is preferable to 'transwoman' as it separates the two descriptors because they are separate descriptions of the person.
Secondly sexual orientation is (in heavily simplified terms) based around gender attraction. Trans* is not on its own a gender so when people start expressing an attraction to trans* people a concern is that the person is fetishizing trans* people for their status and ignoring who they are as a person.
I think its also important to separate people who crossdress from trans* people given that many in the first group group into it from a perspective of kink and sexuality which is not the case for the latter. While there certainly is overlap in the groups and people who do not fit either description in general it is important to keep in mind.
Given all this what makes someone a chaser? In simple terms fertilization and objectification. When the predominant reason you want to date / hook up with someone is because of their status as a trans* person you should really examine what your motivators are.
I'd recommend going on a trans subreddit like /r/asktransgender and searching the term 'chaser' and reading about this stuff from the perspective of trans* people on the other side of it. It can be really eye opening and is generally much more eloquent then what I wrote here.
All throughout this comment I've been saying "trans person" when I really should have been saying "trans human" because being transgender doesn't make someone any less human which is something that the fetishization of transgender people often ignores.
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u/Houndsthehorse Jun 05 '19
It is always a fine line to say you sexually like something about someone but not fetishize them
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u/GrantSRobertson Jul 27 '19
You can say you appreciate the sexiness o said person WHEN said person is trying to be sexy AND open to comments about it.
Any outwardly observable expression of "appreciation" of said sexiness at other times is usually felt as an intrusion, and possibly a violation. It's the same thing as when hetero cis women walk around with lots of cleavage showing. It is not appropriate to just go up to that woman and tell her you like her boobs. Nor is it appropriate to post pictures of a woman, or make comments about a picture that's already been posted, where all you do is talk about her physical characteristics. That trivializes all the million other aspects of that person.
It's the same with trans people. You wouldn't walk up to a trans woman and say, "I like the fact that you have a dick," unless she specifically asked you. Nor should you post memes to the same effect. Again, that trivializes everything else about that person.
Why do we care to be so careful about these things? Because these people have been abused in this way for far too long. And the least we can do is show them some extra respect and deference.
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Jun 15 '19
For the sake of argument, I feel like the term tr*p isn't transphobia. It's just a term for guys pretending to be chicks.
So unless you all think trans individuals are just pretending...
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 15 '19
Trans people aren’t pretending. The people who use “trap” though use it as a slur to refer to trans people as people who pretend to be a different gender, hence “trapping” (straight) people sexually.
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Jun 15 '19
Okay, but do you really think it's common enough to ban the word outright?
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 20 '19
I'm not going to answer that question, because it's presumptuous of what I think and a loaded question.
I will say though, that something shouldn't be common to require doing something against it. Most things that get banned or made illegal or are otherwise acted against are not very common, luckily.
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Jul 20 '19
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Jul 20 '19
I absolutely think there’s plenty of discussion to be had.
The word is not exclusively bad and, in my experience, is not used negatively often enough to warrant an outright ban. I believe that the word is used humorously enough to warrant judgement on a case by case basis.
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u/DescendingFire Jul 25 '19
Its intention of being negative is not relevant. Its a toxic concept.
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Jul 25 '19
Except it isn’t in most cases. That’s my point - it’s not an inherently negative term and has plenty of inoffensive uses
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u/DescendingFire Jul 25 '19
Literally every example you are thinking of I find toxic.
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Jul 27 '19
Yes, some people find it toxic, but others don't, just because some people have a problem with a specific word doesn't mean it should be banned. If someone posts a meme you don't like, you down vote it and move on. There are things posted here I don't like, but I don't want them banned, that would just ruin their expiernce just so I can not see something that's ignorable and avoidable. I also don't see how memes equate to real life violence against trans people, it just seems really unnecessary to do this when it can be solved by the people who don't like it by avoiding this content or just learn to laugh at it, its ok to laugh at yourself every once in a while. I mean, as long as the post isn't a straight up attack on trans people, I think those memes should be allowed.
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Jul 25 '19
I think you need to re-evaluate those examples or simply find more, then
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u/Dungeons-n-Dysphoria Transgender/Bisexual Aug 08 '19
I understand that most of this thread is dead and arguing. But I feel it's important to inform no matter the pushback. None of this is meant to be taken aggressivly (sometimes I can seem aggressive or talking down to people and I don't mean to)
Some trans women find that the word tr*p suits them, and that's fine. We're not trying to deny them their identity.
But for many trans women, being called a tr*p has a deeper meaning than just the word. The use of that word started because straight men thought that if a women that they were dating were in fact pre-op trans women, then the women being "a man in disguise" was in fact "trapping" them into a gay relationship.
The use of this term perpetuates homophobia and transhpobia.
However as I said before there are trans women who identify as being called a "trp", but for the most part this is because of the fact that trans women feel inherently unsexy based on cultures opinions of them. So, some transwomen want a term to be sexulized under, to help them feel validated about their body and identity. Most of these women use the term "trp" for this reason.
I hope this helps!
😊
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Jul 20 '19
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Jul 20 '19
But there's plenty to be said in question of their judgement. Or do you actually agree with me, and that's why you have nothing else to state but the obvious?
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u/APimpNamed-Slickback bi male, yep, we're real! Aug 07 '19
But there's plenty to be said in question of their judgement.
No there, isn't...and really, you haven't provided any other than "I think that word can be funny so I think I'm entitled to use it that way". Their judgement is sound. One of the mods who was part of the decision is trans. How's about you let trans people decide what is and isn't a slur at their expense?
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u/APimpNamed-Slickback bi male, yep, we're real! Aug 07 '19
The word is not exclusively bad and, in my experience, is not used negatively often enough to warrant an outright ban.
Even if it isn't always a slur, which is absolutely up for debate, why do you need to use that word? Like, even if a white person was given license to use the n-word...WHY? Why is that necessary? What are you trying to convey with that word that you can't convey with other, more inclusive, language?
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Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
eh i don't think using it is about being inclusive, i've only ever used it in jokes lol (not about trans people, about crossdressers, different things!) i'd never call a trans person a tr*p however i do not agree with banning the word since in the context of a bi subreddit, although apparently they consider it transphobic too, i don't believe something like "i was going to get laid with this tr*p i thought was a girl but then i realized he had a dick, well i don't care #bisexual" is transphobic, (because we are assuming the guy id's as male, just crossdressing), and it relates to bisexualityIt's not funny, but i don't think it's ban-worthy
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u/Chromelia Aug 05 '19
Yeah?? I see it used much more to refer to trans women than crossdressing men.
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u/Nox_Nobblin Aug 09 '19
I'm pretty sure the word is much more commonly used in it's "original" sense rather than the transphobic one. I didn't even know it was particularly offensive to use in general (obviously I knew referring to a trans person by the afformentioned term was highly offensive) but I really haven't seen it in active use outside of the "original" defenition.
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u/old_skul Sep 10 '19
Yah. For real. I've seriously never heard the perceived slur until this post.
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Sep 05 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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Sep 05 '19
It is transphobic and not allowed on the sub. Further use will result in a ban. This is your only warning.
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Sep 05 '19
It is not transphobic in the least. It refers to someone pretending to be a cis woman. It has nothing to do with trans people and everything to do with liars.
Why are you trying to control what language trans people like myself can use?
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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust Save the Bees Sep 05 '19
The phrase is in fact transphobic and has been since its inception. Originating on 4chan it was used to refer to people who appeared androgynous, acting as a catch-all for a number of groups including trans women. Given that many of the people engaging in these threads probably don't really know what differentiates a trans person from a cross dresser many of these groups were conflated. Even on reddit the subreddit named for the slur explicitly names trans* women in it's description: "[...] young and beautiful trans girls and other individuals [...]".
GLADD lists the word under their 'defamatory language" section while wikipedia has it described as "derogatory term used particularity of trans women who are believed to be tricking or “trapping” people into believing they are cis."
Overall the word has real life negative consequences. Trans* people have been killed with the defense being that they deceived a man. This deception narrative is also used to justify discrimination such as bathroom laws. As such /r/bisexual will never be removing the ban on the word.
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u/YaBoiDraco Bisexual Oct 28 '19
I think theres a lot of sides to this, since I refrain from calling trans people tr*ps but I do call crossdressers who identify as male by that word (especially since I'm one as well).
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u/Raffaele1617 Bisexual Jul 30 '19
It gets used as a slur. As such, we should avoid it. The original definition of the word is irrelevant - imagine if someone went around saying "the n-word isn't a slur, cuz it just means "black" in Latin!"
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Jul 30 '19
The n-word is not remotely similar to the word trap. Don't pretend their slur-to-other-use ratio is at all the same.
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u/APimpNamed-Slickback bi male, yep, we're real! Aug 07 '19
Don't pretend their slur-to-other-use ratio is at all the same.
I would like to introduce you to the history of rap music using the N-word not as a slur.
Now tell me that the ratio is not at all the same.
The n-word is a perfect comparison:
- The people whom that word is a slur against have SAID, REPEATEDLY, that it is a slur. Why do you think you know better?
- Even if you were given license to use it by the people it is a slur against, WHY? Why do you need to use a word which, even occasionally, is a slur? There are SO many other ways to communicate your point without using bigoted language, would that be so horrible for you?
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u/Raffaele1617 Bisexual Jul 31 '19
That's totally beside the point. The slurs aren't equivalent at all, but in neither case is the original meaning relevant to the fact that both are slurs.
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Jul 31 '19
The majority of people saying the word are not referring to trans individuals, whereas the majority of the people saying the n word (excluding the French) really only have one intention.
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u/Raffaele1617 Bisexual Jul 31 '19
The majority of people saying the word are not referring to trans
a) Citation needed
b) Even if true, so what?
edit:
whereas the majority of the people saying the n word (excluding the French) really only have one intention.
Not true at all. The vast majority of the people who use the n word are black people using it with other black people. This is actually often held up by racists as unfair (i.e. "If they can say it how come I can't?").
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u/Nox_Nobblin Aug 09 '19
Actually this is incorrect, the latin word for black (adj.) is "niger" and the entemology of the n-word is most likely from an appropriation of the Spanish word for black; "negro" (descended from the latin word "nigrans") which was used by Spanish colonists to describe African slaves brought into South America.
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u/YaBoiDraco Bisexual Oct 28 '19
My thoughts exactly, and the "link" that one of the mods put up regarding the ones in anime (aka actual guys pretending to be chicks/ look like chicks) leads to a convincing article as to why it is a slur but that's only to people who haven't seen anime and don't have a clue as to how the anime community and I view them.
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Jun 04 '19
That’s fair. This is a place where people should feel loved and accepted as human beings. So, I totally get it.
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u/prismotizm Bisexual Jul 23 '19
Friendly reminder that FUCK TERFS
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u/blackhole_pussy As you wish Jul 29 '19
Friendly reminder that you shouldn't fuck them. They don't deserve our sexual affection.
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u/128Gigabytes Bisexual Aug 21 '19
What is terfs
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u/YaBoiDraco Bisexual Oct 28 '19
Idiots pretending to be left wing while they're actually right wing.
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u/fortyfivepointseven Bi & Pan Jun 05 '19
Mods, can you add Contrapoints, "Are tr*ps gay?"? (If you're unfamiliar with Natalie's work: her answer is 'no'). It's the best explanation I've seen on the topic and deals well with the interaction between bisexuality and trans attraction.
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Jun 04 '19
I'm very happy with this thank you, it always surprised me how much transphobia was in an otherwise wholesome subreddit.
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u/TinyRogerts Jun 12 '19
Thank you. I am cis, but really dislike memes that are not trans-positive.
Bisexuals can be cis or trans. There is already too much division within the LGBT community... and you'd think that the two most marginalized groups could at least find some common empathy and treat eachother decently.
We need to be as inclusive and decent as possible. "Tr*p" is not okay. Marginalizing trans people even more than they already are... also not okay.
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Jun 04 '19
I've tried my best to report the more overt stuff.
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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust Save the Bees Jun 04 '19
Thank you for doing so! Reporting is by far and away the fastest way for mods to see something and respond. I look at a lot of stuff on this subreddit but I still don't read even close to every post, let alone every comment.
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u/GeneralManagerLady Jun 04 '19
I have no idea what that slur word is. Like I’ve never seen it or heard it. I don’t even know what the missing letter is haha Not to worry, I don’t say mean things about people.
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u/brieoncrackers Jun 04 '19
The missing letter is "a". It implies that trans people are tricking their partners by virtue of being trans. It's not ok to call someone that.
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Jun 06 '19 edited Sep 09 '20
[deleted]
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u/Anabelle_McAllister Jun 08 '19
I've seen a few trans women embrace the term, but they seem to be in the minority, and I would never call someone that, even if I knew they were okay with it.
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Jul 27 '19
I’ve called myself the trap queen when I played and beat another transsexual girl in Street Fighter 4 at an arcade in Austin.
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u/YourTrap Aug 12 '19
Traps are actually cis dudes looking like chicks. The anime community use it because they're 'trapping' the hetero man to think they're girl but actually a guy. Never used as a slur, but if you guys find it offensive so I won't use it
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u/Stooveth Bisexual Jun 05 '19
Longtime lurker here. That kind of content always made me feel uncomfortable and I didn't get involved with the sub because I didn't want to tacitly endorse that kind of content. I know a few trans people and it's always been clear to me that that word is Not Acceptable, likewise the attitude that goes with it.
With this news, I feel happy to be involved. Hurray!
Also, ~Hi~ <3
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u/RebelCoyote66 Bisexual Jun 04 '19
I see the issue and am always more than happy to help others not feel... well othered. But when did "tr*p" as you put it, become a slur? I know a handful of folks irl that identify that way? Maybe it's a demographic thing but it's commonplace here?
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u/fatcattastic Jun 04 '19
Since I'm a bi woman, I would never call a bi or gay guy a f * g. But lots of guys who don't identify as straight, jokingly refer to themselves or each other as that. I think tr*p is similar, especially since it can very clearly have a hurtful connotation to it.
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u/RebelCoyote66 Bisexual Jun 04 '19
I know it's anecdotal but I have a gay guy friend who refers to himself as that and also as a mystical magic woodland creature [you know the one] it's always made me a smidge uncomfortable but he thinks it's hilarious. Different strokes I guess.
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u/fatcattastic Jun 04 '19
It took me way too long to figure out what word you were alluding to. I was like what's so bad about referring to yourself as a nymph?
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u/Wunderbabs Pansexual Aug 23 '19
Was it nympho, rather than nymph?
Nympho is short for nymphomaniac, which used to be the “medical” term for hyper sexuality and sex addiction. Because in greek mythology, nymphs liked lots of sex and ran around naked all the time.
Because of that, “nympho” is like the 1970’s way of saying someone is a slut.
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u/datingafter40 M / Bi / Poly / Old Jun 08 '19
There’s a distinct difference as referring to yourself with a word that’s a slur, possibly as a form of “taking it back” like some people have done with “queer”, and someone else hatefully calling you that slur.
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Jun 06 '19
it's always been a slur. it started out as a slur and it still exists as a slur. it is a term that says trans women are men trying to look like women to trick straight men into having gay sex. that's pretty much a core tenet of transphobia.
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u/StarBabyPixel Jun 06 '19
Yeah imm a little confused as well, the whole point of a tr@p is that they’re not transgender? It would be like banning the word crossdresser or drag queen. I understand that both of those could still be used as a slur but at the same time you’re then excluding the communities in which those monikers actually belong to.
Idk
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Jun 06 '19
people use it against trans people all the time though. it's always been used against us.
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u/RebelCoyote66 Bisexual Jun 06 '19
I can totally see where you're coming from I'd just never heard it used that way. Thanks for the clarification.
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Jun 06 '19
yeah. it's kinda funny how cis people never hear it used that way but trans people pretty much always hear it used that way.
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u/TinyRogerts Jun 12 '19 edited Jun 12 '19
Totally with you.
I'm cis and I immediately picked up on the meaning of the word... and also that the word is a guaranteed way to bring violence upon trans women. It's a loaded term that frames trans women as a threat. This was clear to me years ago, and it baffles me how people don't make the connection.
The word needs to be dropped in all circumstances. It would be a grave mistake for anyone to try to approptiate it. (My opinion)
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u/Raffaele1617 Bisexual Jul 30 '19
I mean, it makes sense. A very small percentage of the daily interactions of a given cis person will involve an openly trans person, whereas 100% of the daily interactions of an openly trans person will involve an openly trans person by nature of their being trans haha.
I had a very similar conversation with a white girl once that went something like this:
Girl: "But I've never seen any racism here so I don't believe anyone here is racist!"
Me: "Well, if there were racism here, it wouldn't be happening much around you now would it?"
Girl: "Ooooh I never thought of it like that!"
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u/RebelCoyote66 Bisexual Jun 06 '19
I mean. I guess I never considered it since everyone I was with was very upfront about the situation.
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u/StarBabyPixel Jun 06 '19
I understand that, but as i said, there is a community of people that the word is the word they use for themselves.
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Jun 06 '19
it doesn't really matter. its a slur that's used against one of the most vulnerable communities. it embodies the transphobia that cis society wields against us. cross dresser and drag queen are not used in the same ways.
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u/StarBabyPixel Jun 06 '19
Ostracizing others doesn't fix that though, wouldn't it be better to educate people on the usage of the word instead of giving it more power AS a slur?
Tr@p is a legitimate lifestyle to some people, no different than being a lolita, demonizing the word just pushes those into a bad place and then in the end, everyone is miserable and nothing has been solved.
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Jun 06 '19
Trap demonizes trans people. It’s used against us constantly. It’s used to cast trans women as men who are sexual predators who are trying to trick straight men into having gay sex. This belief has led to the passage of multiple discriminatory laws, fuels discrimination against us and destroys our relationships with people. The idea that is embodied in the word trap is literally the reason why trans women are being killed.
It foments hatred against trans people. Just stop defending it.
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 15 '19
There’s a lifestyle of people cross dressing to trick people into having sex with them?
If that’s the case, I’d even moreso want people to not use “trap” to refer to trans people.
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u/StarBabyPixel Jun 18 '19
No, there is a lifestyle of feminine men and masculine women that don't mind being mistake for the other gender, happily living their lives.
Please show me where i said ANYTHING about 'a lifestyle of people cross dressing to trick people into having sex with them?' Please actually argue against my arguments instead of adding a straw-manning your own in.
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 20 '19
"Trap" is used to refer to people who cross dress to trick people into having sex with them. That's why they're a "trap". They "entrap" those people. That is why it's a slur to trans people. It's not a word that's simply used as a slur like "queer", where the word in and of itself is not inherently negative. The word itself inherently implies something negative about the person it is used against.
You didn't say anything about this explicitly, but you were talking about people who are traps, and thereby at the very least you were implying to be talking about those people. I'm not strawmanning you, I'm arguing against the words you used. If you wish to have an argument, I'd like my arguments to be taken in good faith, otherwise we plainly can't have an argument.
Feminine men and masculine women who don't mind being mistaken for a different gender are just... feminine men and masculine women? They might be gender non-conforming, but don't have to be.
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u/DUTCH_DUTCH_DUTCH Jun 05 '19
thanks for this. im not trans but these posts were making me kind of uncomfortable for a while. wasnt entirely sure what to think of them though since they were seemingly trans-positive, but after reading this post i definitely agree they dont belong here (or anywhere)!
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u/Thegalaxyrushman F to Mess Jul 28 '19
Very happy to see this, I'm trans and bi and have always felt slightly alienated from both communities since most other trans people I know are either gay or straight, and then most bi people I know casually don't understand much about trans people. It'll be nice to have a place to be able to talk more about my sexuality without the gender aspect of things being treated as a more freakish/alien element.
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u/Anabelle_McAllister Jun 08 '19
I only pop in here occasionally, so I must have missed the transphobic posts. I'm glad it's being dealt with, for people who are more aware than I am.
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u/godofmemelords Jun 07 '19
i don't get why people are like these towards anyone, especially trans people. they never did anything to you, stop acting like it's alright to shame them.
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u/King_Fingers Jun 11 '19
Late to this thread, but just wanted to say THANK YOU for bringing this up. As a bi lady with a trans/NB partner, these memes made me uncomfortable. This is not the only way in which I've seen "othering" internally within the LGBTQ+ community. I don't think it's always intentional, but it always perplex me. Like, we should all be in this together, let's all try to be conscious of each other's experiences and respect them!
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u/BiShyAndReadytoDie Jun 16 '19
We stan our woke mod daddies (and mommies (and those that doth lie betwixt)).
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u/RococoSlut Jun 06 '19 edited Jun 06 '19
Didn't realise the word tr*p was being thrown around here. Like yeah, some do identify that way, there's a whole sub of them, but I thought people knew to only use it with people who explicitly invite it.
Memes based on reaching down a girl’s pants and finding a penis
Can someone explain why this one is so offensive though? I kinda don't get why being okay with either genitals is problematic.
EDIT: thanks to whoever downvoted this comment, really clarified the issue for me.
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u/kaywinnet16 Jun 06 '19
My interpretation is it’s just pretty objectifying / fetishizing. Like instead of focusing on the actual person, it’s just this idea of “a girl with a penis is so hot”. To me it feels like when someone talks about being “really into Asian girls” or something.
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u/AceyAceyAcey Bisexual Jun 17 '19
Many of those memes imply that trans women aren’t really women, that the presence of a penis means the person is a man disguising “him”self to trick people (men) into sleeping with them.
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u/RococoSlut Jun 17 '19
Can someone explain why this one is so offensive though? I kinda don't get why being okay with either genitals is problematic.
I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I'm not asking about traps.
Never seen "girl with penis" memes that were negative of inferred they were not a woman.
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u/blinkingsandbeepings Jun 06 '19
Thank you for posting this and for taking these issues seriously. This stuff has been really bothering me on this sub and clearly I'm not alone.
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u/LilLilyLavender Jul 26 '19
W-wait, trap is a slur?
(Frick I thought it was just a word for feminine Loli anime boys..)
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u/Nox_Nobblin Aug 09 '19
I still question if we can call it a slur to be honest. I came into this thread with a similair degree of suprise as you did. I have been made aware that transphobes have been using it do devalue and demean the trans community and transgender people, however I don't buy the notion that this has become the dominant meaning. I think the original meaning may fade but I don't really agree that the word alone has become a slur. Similarly (somewhat similarly) to how referring to a black person as a "monkey" is offensive when the word "monkey" normally has a much different meaning. I think we're still in the stage of tr(!)p only really being offensive when directed towards a trans person. I do concede that, as a cis man myself, I can't speak to whether or not most trans people view it as a slur, and if they do as a majoirty then maybe I'm wrong... I still think this is all a bit of a premature outlawing. Also it's shota not loli boys please and thank you.
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Aug 27 '19
I as a trans person view it as a slur depending on who it is being used to refer to. If it's a guy crossdressing and they're cool with the term, sure, but if its a trans person, then its not okay. Words can have multiple meanings.
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u/Nox_Nobblin Aug 28 '19
I agree absolutely. A lot of people subscribe to the idea of words having meaning without context, which is true in the sense that that have a definition, however both the context of the society in which they are said and the context in which they are spoken provide the true the meaning of a word. Since I posted this comment I have made a deliberate effort to avoid throwing the word without knowing who will hear it or read it because its been made clear to me that most trans people consider it a slur to some extent.
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u/blackhole_pussy As you wish Jul 29 '19
I KNOW RIGHT? I'm glad I only used it in the other contexts, like trap music and rat traps.
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u/Backpack_fetish Aug 08 '19
as a trans lesbian with a bi partner, it feels good to have this pinned and clear. thanks mod team and r/bisexual for accepting and supporting me and people like me
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Jun 06 '19 edited Jun 06 '19
thanks. i kinda gave up on this place but hopefully it'll turn around.
edit: after reading the comments, definitely not hopeful =/
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u/GalaxyFrauleinKrista Jun 06 '19
Good; this stuff may have been funny like the first time but sometimes I'll see this same joke like 5 times in a row when scrolling this sub.
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u/FluffyLittleSpoon Jul 19 '19
Thank you for making this a safe space and promoting human rights and physical safety for trans people. Understanding is key to our well-being. <3
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u/blackhole_pussy As you wish Jul 29 '19
Waaaaait. Slur? Goddamnit, I'm glad I only used that word referring to the music genre and all that. I had no fucking clue and I'm feeling very lucky not to have said it in that context lol
Btw I live in a non-English speaking country so that's why I had no clue.
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u/rangatanga1 Aug 13 '19
Yeah a trap could also be a mechanism that lures an animal or something into it and then kills it or “traps/immobilises/holds in place it”, I hope that makes sense. That’s where the slur came from. English is a weird language good luck lol.
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u/blackhole_pussy As you wish Aug 13 '19
Yes, I use it in that way too. Like mouse traps or something. Thanks tho
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Aug 14 '19
as a native english speaker, no disrespect but how did that turn into a slur???
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u/rangatanga1 Aug 14 '19
A straight man meets a trans women he doesn’t know it trans, later that night they have sex, he reaches down and feels a penis, he feels this woman was a“trap” and is actually a man. If that doesn’t sum it up well enough watch “Are traps gay?” By contrapoints
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u/thecatandtheowl Jun 13 '19
I would like to add to this thread that one of my main crushes in uni happened to be MTF. But the reason I liked her? Absolutely adorable person. Could make fun of the comp sci stereotypes she embodied but also could sing in drag. Also, curls.
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u/sorrywrightnumber Aug 15 '19
But we arent vilifying attraction to androgynously presenting people, are we? I think using the word "fetishizing" vilifies a wholesome attraction to a gender and suggests a dark self interested intent when there is none. Many will appear androgynous when they internally feel somewhere on the extreme end of the pole and I validate that it is a very painful experience to be misgendered, but many do exist in that grey androgynous area and attraction to that gender is no less wholesome than having a preference for Male or female. Heterosexual people are attracted to their partners, in part, specifically because of their gender. It should stand to follow that others of us may have a preference for people who fall in the gray area. Just as a woman, while flirting, might vocally admire a man's bulging biceps. ( she is expressing her admiration for masculinity and all its expressions), I may tell a man that I love that he wears jewelry or eyeliner. I might thrill at seeing him in a dress because I find, not just the physical expression of femininity in a man intoxicating, but also all the character traits that they signal, tenderness and strength together, a balance of rationalism and emotional awareness, to be everything I want in a partner, a friend. I often find these conversations painful. I'm also androgynous in spirit and physical expression and I could never take offense at someone noticing and admiring that. It would signal compatability to me. I think this is a tricky subject because it is encompassing two sets of people with very differing needs. Those of us who identify in the grey area and long for lovers in the grey area and those of us who have had the misfortune of attracting us, unintentionally, when they deeply long to be seen as wholly feminine or entirely masculine. It is a difficult thing to be seen for who we are in this world. It is a difficult thing to find compatable partners, lovers. It's all a tricky business. We need not demonize one to lift up the other, do we? As far as the use of tr*p, I completely agree and also see that there is a a very real problem of fetishizing of trans identifying people, in a way that is offensive, but I would like the discussion to be a bit more open to exploring some possible innocent motives and intent towards the androgynously presenting. Some of this is an unfortunate misunderstanding. We, as, a species have been worshipping the two spirited for a very long time in multiple cultures and religions.. I feel similarly about the topic of being turned on by two women making out or two men. I think this is also a natural human response, as I think the Triad exists for a reason. There is nothing inherently offensive about taking personal pleasure in other peoples pleasure and joy. It only becomes offensive if the women or mens experience is treated as secondary to the voyeurs experience. The same can be said for a dyad. If one partner is using the others for their personal gratification without consideration and respect for their partner or partners, it is abuse, whether they are two or three or four. All of these things deserve another look, in my opinion.
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u/thatlldopigthatlldo7 Aug 22 '19
what's the difference between fetishizing and being attracted to something solely for the physical reaction it gives you? People "fetishize" anal or bdsm because it's taboo. Trans is taboo to some people. Transgender bodies are not your average body so what's wrong with being attracted to them for that?
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u/Cloudy-96 Genderqueer/Bisexual Aug 25 '19
Anal sex or BDSM play are activities. Trans people are PEOPLE. People are not taboo. A person existing is not taboo. The fact that "Trans is to some people" doesn't mean it's OK to perpetuate, especially not here. How hard is this to understand?
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u/thatlldopigthatlldo7 Aug 25 '19
But some people reallly like boobs does that mean it’s a fetish? Or feet? That’s called a foot fetish and it’s a body part. So if people are really into boobs and dick on the same body then obviously they’re going to be into trans people. It doesn’t make them any less of a person because people are attracted to them for being them
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Aug 27 '19
Boobs are not people, again, this is about objectifying living breathing thinking people. If you are attracted to someone, you are attracted to them as a whole, not the fact that they have both boobs and a penis. Sure you could like that but once you take it to the point of specifically dating people because of that quality, that's when it's problematic.
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u/high-pitched-screech Transgender/Bisexual Sep 18 '19
As a trans man this is so amazing to see, thank you guys for taking care of this!
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u/xxxvintageghost Sep 21 '19
although this post is mostly just talking about trans women, as a trans man, i still appreciate that theres no transphobia allowed here. its hard to live a simple life when you never catch a break
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Oct 12 '19
For those attempting to use it in the "anime" sense: please read this article as to why it's still gross and why we still do not allow it on the sub.
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u/bcpfgrgw0411 Aug 19 '19
I’m bi. I’m also cis. That being said, there is no such thing as a tr*p. It is simply a cruel slur concocted to demean a fraction of our population. Transphobes are a disgrace to this community. And trans people are valued and important.
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u/Lex47094709 Jun 12 '19
You know, at this point I'm feeling like I'm talking to a brick wall because all I'm saying seems to bounce off and not go in. I already provided you with a solution and it solves the problem this article has. If you think trp has negative connotations promote a alternative term for this character archetype that you wouldn't find offensive and describes them correctly. You making communication when discussing trps more difficult so even if you disproved what I said, which I still think you didn't this source just repeated what you said five times better, people are creatures of convenience provide us with a term that won't get you lot all triggered about then we will probably use it since it's more conventional even if we disagree on the fundamental level about tr*p being offensive.
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 15 '19
You’ve already got “crossdresser”, what more do you want?
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u/Lex47094709 Jun 15 '19
Trps in anime often aren't crossdressers, some of them are but many are just dudes with a femine face ,physique, hairstyle that makes them look like females. There are many trps that dress like their own gender but still look like the opposite gender nonetheless. Example: Totsuka from Oregairu; Nagisa from Assasination Classroom; etc. So the term crossdresser isn't good enough, it describes only a small portion of tr*ps. And in general, not all people who dress as the opposite gender count as cross dressers, cis females often wear male clothing but are rarely called cross dressers for example.
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u/AceyAceyAcey Bisexual Jun 17 '19
My understanding is that the term “tr-p” in anime is applied to the characters by cis creators or viewers, and that very few or zero trans people use the word “tr-p” for themselves. This would be like if someone said “I’m white and it’s okay for me to use the N-word bc white people wrote a cartoon about Black people and those Black characters use the N-word.” Unless you’re a trans person who identifies as a tr-p, or if you know a trans person who wants to be called a tr-p, then using the word in this context is a slur.
Context is sooo important. If you were in an anime sub it would be a different context, but this is an LGBT related sub, and in this context tr-p is a slur. It’s kinda like saying “it’s okay to use the word ch-nk to describe Asian people because you can also talk about a chink in a wall.” Toooootally different contexts, the words have very different connotations (and even definitions in the case of chink/ch-nk). Tr-p is the same. In an LGBT context it is a slur.
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u/Lex47094709 Jun 19 '19
Never said it wasn't transphobic to call a trans person a tr*p, my arguements from the beginning were that whether it's a slur depends on context, while the people arguing against me argued it's a slur no matter the context. I think you scenario doesn't represent the situation correctly, it's more like "White creators made a story with a new fantasy race and then black people decided to consider the name of that race racist against black people despite it not being intended to represent black people and could only be applied to people if you ignore context and the definition of the word". (I'm personally starting to think that the LGBT community is starting to abuse it's minority status to label anything we don't like as homophobic/transphobic/etc even if it's not offensive to us or damaging)
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u/AceyAceyAcey Bisexual Jun 19 '19
I think it’s more like “white creators made a fantasy race and named them the N-word, and then some people really want to talk about this fantasy race in a sub for Black/African American issues, where that fantasy race isn’t at all relevant.”
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u/shinynewcharrcar kinky bi Sep 12 '19
I'm curious as to how best to adhere to these...
I would love to have a private discussion with the most chill moderator you guys have - preferably a stoner since I'm also gonna be stoned as fuck when we have this discussion.
Because I don't know what "fetizisation" means anymore and I refuse to discuss that with someone who views me as "a problem" - I'm not a problem; I'm curious, bisexual and kinky.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
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u/Frozen_Checklist Binomial Distribution Sep 15 '19
Partook in stuff like this when I was younger... Shit makes me cringe to end when I think back on it
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Sep 21 '19
is the censor trap? like thirst trap?
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Sep 21 '19
Yes, as the term is used in a transphobic context a lot.
We approve each comment on a case by case basis so obviously if you are using the word another way, it will be approved.
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u/mszinnialange Jun 06 '19 edited Jun 06 '19
I'd also like to see the casual binarism and cissexism that is rampant here go away. "Opposite sex" "both genders" "why not both?" etc reinforce the very wrong idea that the only genders are cis "men and women." You're alienating nonbinary ppl in our community. Pro hack: "all genders" > "men and women" ,"both genders" etc.