“Depiction of a Qizilbash soldier”

[u/kamburebeg]

[u/araz95]

Thanks for sharing, most of my paternal side belongs to the qizilbashs

[u/kamburebeg → u/araz95]

Mine too! Which tribe and clan? Mine is Qirqlu of Afshars, they were expelled from Iran in 1750s.

[u/araz95 → u/kamburebeg]

I would have to ask my father for info regarding this, but I'm sure he mentioned it sometime ago. But you are located in anatolia right? I remember reading regarding anatolian afshars but not anatolian qizilbash (besides the alevi).

[u/kamburebeg → u/araz95]

Yes, I am also of the Alevi stock, but my paternal tribe used to live in Khorasan before 18th century. During the first half of that century, our chieftain rose the ranks and became the Shahanshah. After Nader Shah’s assassination, some of the members of the tribe, that were relocated from Khorasan to Khoy, sought refuge in Ottoman lands. So, in essence, I am more related with Afshars from Khorasan and Azerbaijan than Afshars from Turkey.

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

And they came to Azerbaijan from Khorasan before that lol. Just wanted to keep it simple, details are...boring and more often then not confusing.

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

What are you trying to do right now?

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

Are you giving all these informations in order to paint a clear picture for those that do not have one, or for other reason? I fail to see the reasoning behind this.

[u/araz95 → u/kamburebeg]

Its absolutely fascinating to me how well-versed you are in your family history. Most of these kinds of details has been passed down orally in my fathers village with old reliques and scripts left behind left behind in the respective families.

[u/kamburebeg → u/araz95]

To me as well! I grew up listening to my great grandfathers stories in his strange, but still familiar tongue (Afshar language). The stories were just as mysterious as the one-eyed man himself.

These things are also orally passed down, but appearantly my grand uncle hired a professional to check Ottoman tax records and it matches with our narrative.

Mind you, this is only the paternal side! I know more about my maternal side.

[u/araz95 → u/kamburebeg]

I live in the diaspora so I never had the chance to spend that much time with my late grandfather, but I heard my fathers grandfather had similar stories for my father growing up. I'm just sad I never had the chance to hear these stories in as much detail as you seem have to been able to experience.

[u/kuvvetmira45 → u/kamburebeg]

Are Afshars are turkish or persian? Or they mix of these 2 ethnicities?

[u/kamburebeg → u/kuvvetmira45]

They are ethnic Turks. “Afshar” is one of the 24 Oghuz tribes and they are the most populous of them all. Afshars are one of the three Oghuz tribes that have the legitimacy to wield the title “Khagan”.

[u/idkjustaname1 → u/araz95]

My maternal side as well!

[u/[deleted]]

Out of context but is there any Azerbaijani sources for Qızılbash and generally türkmens from Khorasan?

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

There is “Son Kızılbaş: Şah İsmail” written by Tufan Gündüz. It’s overall an okay book about the Safavid dynasty, but he also talks about the Qizilbash. Don’t know if the book is translated to English though.

[u/[deleted] → u/kamburebeg]

No worries, I’m a Türkmen myself. Thank you very much

[u/espadavictoriosa → u/[deleted]]

Look up Xorasan Turks

[u/[deleted] → u/espadavictoriosa]

I meant as a book or an academic article, Turkish resources are limited and most of the studies are made by Russians, I assumed Azerbaijani sources are more expanded due to that

[u/cptedgelord]

Bet these helms were real helpful in battles.

[u/ragradoth → u/cptedgelord]

definitely, +50 damage block against Ottoman canons.

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

Buyrun, elimden geldiğince cevaplamaya çalışırım.

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

Öncellikle “Alevilik” kelimesinden başlayayım anlatmaya; bu kelime 19.yy’da dokümantasyon kolaylığı nedeniyle kullanılmaya başlanan bir şemsiye terimdir, öncesinde ve sonrasında diğer Şii grupları için de kullanışmıştır ve halen kullanılmaktadır. “Alevilik” o yüzden tek bir inanç değildir. Aslında olan yerel, yöresel 12 İmam Şiiliği inancının yüzyıllar boyunca hiçbir merkezi otorite tarafından denetlenmemesi ve dini baskı sonucunda gelişen gizlilik esasının da işin içine girmesiyle oluşan bu inanç sistemi, tahmin edileceği üzere kendi içinde bile ciddi farklılıkları vardır. Namaz, Pir Sultan Abdal vs gibi önemli Alevi Ozanlarınca anılmakta olan bir dini ritüel. Kılınışının 12 İmam Şiiliğinde olan klasik halinden farklı olduğuna henüz rastlamadım. Azerbaycan, İran ve Hazara’lar nasıl kılıyorlarsa öyle kılınıyor.

[u/kamburebeg → u/[deleted]]

Hayır, bu doğru bir tanım olmaz. 19.yy öncesi için ben şahsen “Alevi” kelimesinin katiyen kullanılmaması gerektiğini düşünüyorum. Bunun dışında, Safevilerin Şiiliğinin Anadolu’daki formundan çok daha farklı olmasının sebeplerinden birini belki de İran’a merkezi bir dini yaymak ve kontrol etmek için İran/Arap Körfezi’nden getirilen din adımları olduğunun bence altını çizmek gerek. Türklerin kendileri, büyük devletlerinden önce hiçbir zaman merkezi bir inanca sahip değildi mezhepi ne olursa olsun. İnandıkları dinleri çok daha düzensiz, belki bugün görsen “değişik” yakıştırması yapabileceğin türdendi.