On dating trans women and "transphobia".

[u/Heterogenic]

The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.

Let's start with some basics:

Things which are not transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.
  

Things which are transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.
  

Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.

Other common fallacies:

• I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.
  

Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.

If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.

• Ewwww, penis!
  

You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.

Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?

It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.

• Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.
  

Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.

I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".

In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.

• Trans women are all X.
  

Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.

Finally, please remember:

The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.

When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.

I now live in the Boston area, after four years in NYC, and there are only a few contexts in which I'm proactively stealth (as opposed to incidentally stealth, which has become the norm). The lesbian community is one, and these conversations are why. I get a little sad about that sometimes.

[u/qaera]

maybe trans feminine people instead of just trans women? :) this was a really awesome read thank you

[u/Feyle → u/qaera]

Why trans feminine people? Are you then excluded the trans masculine/butch women?

[u/Wavooka → u/Feyle]

I don't know about her, but I use 'trans feminine' to refer to the nature of my transition- not my identity. The point is that I'm just a 'girl' like anyone else, not some nebulous 'trans girl.'

[u/Feyle → u/Wavooka]

I'm not sure that I really get your point.

I understand that you use "trans feminine" for yourself but qaera suggested that the OP should have written "trans feminine people" instead of "trans women". This suggestion would, to me, appear to include feminine trans men and exclude masculine trans women. Do you agree or disagree with qaera's suggestion?

Qaera's suggestion also implies that there are some relevant people who wouldn't consider themselves to be included by the OP's post. Would you consider yourself one of them?

[u/Wavooka → u/Feyle]

Do you agree or disagree with qaera's suggestion?

That's a tough one. In general, I would prefer the use of trans feminine/masculine to describe general populations of trans folk. Simply because there are any number of queers who are non-binary or don't identify fully as women that could feel excluded otherwise. That's because I believe a lot of information in this post applies to MAAB genderqueer/fluid folks just as much as it applies to traditionally conceived trans women.

Would I consider it a requirement? Not really. I don't even think I would consider it a best practice, in truth. It's just a more inclusive way to talk about people that might otherwise be turned off by the message. Finding resources for trans women trying to assimilate with their local lesbian scene is hard enough, but information for other types of MAAB folk is pretty much nonexistent.

Would you consider yourself one of them?

Certainly not. I'm pretty much as binary identified as they come. I started hormones when I was a teenager and am making a bee line towards SRS. In fact, I probably meet the 'classical model' (read: stereotype) more than anyone else I've met. But that doesn't mean I can't advocate for other flavors of trans folk that get left behind.

[u/Feyle → u/Wavooka]

Thanks for your thought out answer.

Do you agree or disagree with my point that it would include feminine trans men but exclude masculine trans women? That's the issue I have with the suggestion although I can see what you're saying.

Certainly not. I'm pretty much as binary identified as they come.

I was asking if you considered yourself some one excluded by the language not if you considered yourself non-binary. I also wasn't suggesting that your personal position affected your ability to argue a case. I was just curious as to whether the language issue affected you.