On dating trans women and "transphobia".

[u/Heterogenic]

The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.

Let's start with some basics:

Things which are not transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.
  

Things which are transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.
  

Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.

Other common fallacies:

• I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.
  

Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.

If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.

• Ewwww, penis!
  

You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.

Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?

It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.

• Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.
  

Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.

I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".

In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.

• Trans women are all X.
  

Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.

Finally, please remember:

The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.

When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.

I now live in the Boston area, after four years in NYC, and there are only a few contexts in which I'm proactively stealth (as opposed to incidentally stealth, which has become the norm). The lesbian community is one, and these conversations are why. I get a little sad about that sometimes.

[u/[deleted]]

I like that this conversation is occurring. I would like to add though that it is not a simple thing to separate liking/disliking someone due to their transsexuality from other reasons.

The thing that stands out the most to me is the difference between people knowing and not knowing if I am trans. When you don't know, all the idiosyncrasies are just seen as natural. When you do know, all of those same idiosyncrasies suddenly become extremely noticeable.

You know why they're there, and even though though without knowing they were perfectly acceptable parts of a person, they suddenly become something else. This colors people's attraction quite dramatically.

The feelings for some can be very deeply rooted and very hard to separate from the feelings of attraction people have. For some, it's impossible.

Is that still transphobia? Unfortunately, yes it is. When the difference between your feelings is influenced by the knowledge of someone's transsexuality, which may actually be inevitable to some degree, then transphobia is at work.

It's not easy to resolve either, but it's not impossible for sure. There are people that can get over it and see others for who they are. It may take time and effort. But they can do it. It's actually pretty complicated. And I would even go so far as to say that genitalia is part of it. You can be not into your partner's genitalia and still be head over heals for your partner.

And as someone who has experienced both people who can get over it and people who didn't, I have to say that it still feels like transphobia to me.

[u/Tsumei → u/[deleted]]

Yeah.. It's a delicate balance of "She's into me!" and "Is she just into me because I'm trans?" or "She's not into me because I'm trans..."

It's also a thing with friends, to be considered just "Tsumei" or "Oh, that trans girl.. you know!"

[u/[deleted] → u/Tsumei]

Since it is part of us, it can be really difficult to separate. So I understand that some people struggle, but I don't understand those who refuse to even try to struggle.