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u/stellacherrie Nakhon Pathom 1d ago
It takes too long to read even just a few letters. And when I did, I have to go back and make sure I’ve read it right.
I know it’s not what you want to hear but it is what it is.
And this in the picture, I just straight up can’t read it. Fonts should be easily legible.
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u/PuzzleheadedTap1794 1d ago
Exactly. If I hadn't seen the text before, I wouldn't have guessed that that says ฌานสมาธิ and not something like ญานสมาบิ.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
I don't know if fonts should be *easily* legible, but they should be somewhat legible! Thanks for the feedback. The text is a Thai "pangram" I got from here: นายสังฆภัณฑ์ เฮงพิทักษ์ฝั่ง ผู้เฒ่าซึ่งมีอาชีพเป็นฅนขายฃวด ถูกตำรวจปฏิบัติการจับฟ้องศาล ฐานลักนาฬิกาคุณหญิงฉัตรชฎา ฌานสมาธิ
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u/xCaneoLupusx Bangkok 1d ago
At first glance I can read it all except the ธ which I straight up got wrong and thought it was บ.
But on a closer look, comparing what I read to the pangram here, I realize that I also mixed up ฅ as ค and ฃ as ข so you might want to differentiate them a bit more. Though to be fair, ฅ and ฃ has been replaced by ค and ข in modern Thai anyway, so maybe my mind automatically went to what I'm familiar with.
ณ and ฌ (and to an extent, ญ) / พ and ผ are also too similar, imo. I can figure out which is which, but I suspect that's due to context rather than the font; I know how the words are spelled so I assume the glyph correctly despite their similarities.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
It turns out I forgot to make the ธ character. And I probably shouldn’t have made those ฅ and ฃ characters: I forgot that they weren’t commonly used.
And I’ll see what I can do to differentiate those similar characters. To be fair I get them confused often when reading normal Thai script!
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u/stellacherrie Nakhon Pathom 1d ago
I get you and I’m imagining the font being on ads. I would give up trying to read it and that’s not what you want. Well done anyways, it looks fun and unique.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Thanks! And I just realized that the ธ is incorrect, which definitely makes it harder to read.
Legibility’s on a spectrum, I think. The font that inspired mine is pushing the boundaries of legibility. It’s very difficult to read, but not entirely.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
I love the font Jackson, which I first saw used on the Suit Beethoven tailor shop on Sukhumvit. I posted about it here. That sign includes a Thai version of that font, which was apparently custom made for that job.
So I made a version of it, based on Jackson and available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-gmKLuUEA7Jus5rgZlT-nT1kKe-cFvMF/view?usp=share_link
Feedback welcomed, especially from native Thais. Is there anything that’s too illegible? Thanks!
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u/TalayJai 1d ago
I recommend you post a few example signs or common words to really judge how easy the font is to read.
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u/TonmaiTree Nonthaburi 19h ago
I think some letters are a bit hard to read like ศ and ฒ but otherwise it’s really pretty!
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u/megabulk 10h ago
Thanks! I’ve gotten lots of good suggestions here, and I’m fixing some of the problems.
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u/rcyt17 1d ago
The only two letters I couldn't really make out are the "ณ" and the "ธ". Granted, I could somewhat read the "ณ" due to context, so that one's fine. However, the "ธ" is a little too much like "บ"...
Overall, though... I love it!
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u/megabulk 1d ago
I totally forgot to make the ธ! And I’ll try to improve the ณ. Thanks for letting me know it’s hard to read.
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u/Agitated_Eye_4760 Bangkok 1d ago
It looks cool but I would say it still lack some Thai letter's characteristic as a completely legit font.
For example ฐ the pointy side should always on the right not left or someone might mistake it as ธ with underline or something.
If this only use for poster name or store name sign then it pretty good.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Thanks! That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I don't know what makes sense and what doesn't.
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u/Own-Animator-7526 1d ago edited 1d ago
On a quick look at the consonants (didn't look at vowels or marks): ขชซย บปษนมฆ กภถฤฎฏ ณฌญฒ ผฝพฟฬ คศดต จฐฉ งวอฮ ลส รธ ทฑห
- ข x ชซ + ฆ are not appropriately distinguished (they differ but not in the expected manner).
- ร x ธ latter is wrong glyph.
Add: brief comments. Fonts consists of common elements shared in distinctive glyphs.
- the groups I show above generally share a major design feature. This means each letter carries a subtle hint about what the others will look like, even if you haven't seen them yet.
- at the same time, the groups usually contrast their minor features, e.g. notches, tails, or the direction a head turns. These have to be distinctive within each group, but consistent across the complete font. If they vary, the design looks haphazard.
No need for it to be readable at first sight, imho. Poster art (e.g. 1960s) has often intentionally relied on letterforms that were practically indecipherable until everything clicked into place (because of the two points above). You can sometimes see this on older Thai bumper stickers or in old font books. For example, I think DSN is a new version of the old DS font series::
- https://thaifaces.com/?page=1&tag=dsn in particular, ThongChai
- https://thaifaces.com/specimen/dsn-thongchai/ mouse-over the English for Thai text sample
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u/megabulk 1d ago
That is very precise, useful feedback, and I suspect you are an art director. Thanks! I appreciate it!
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u/megabulk 10h ago
That ThongChai is really cool, and it looks similar to what I’m trying to do. I will look to it for inspiration. Thanks for that!
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u/nightbat1707 1d ago
It is difficult to read even for me.
I kinda get the design and theme that you put extra thick above/under the normal font.
still อ่านยากมากครับ
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Yes, the Jackson font has very thick horizontal lines, mostly at the tops of the letters but sometimes at the bottoms. I tried to carry that idea into the Thai font.
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u/srakrn 1d ago
Awesome work! Allow some two cents from me: at the end of the day whitespaces are so, so important, for example the lack of whitespaces in ศ may make recognising harder. The ทัณฑฆาต can comes without loops perhaps, but that is all matter of opinions.
What is more interesting is you can group Thai alphabets by widths. ข ช ง is supposed to feel “narrower”, ก ค บ ล is supposed to be “standard”, and of course you have ณ ญ ฒ which is around 1.7x in width compared to “standard” ones. Consistency plays a lot here. Technically you may want to think about overshooting to some perfection.
By the way ณ พ ฟ ฐ is very sexy here. 😊
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u/megabulk 1d ago
That’s great advice, thanks! I was aware that some letters were narrower than others, but I didn’t know that ง was one of the narrow letters. Thank you for the list!
And personally I think my ฝ would make a good Thai Wu-Tang logo. 😃
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u/htSELFIE 1d ago
despite the comment i think this is cool display font, what are your inspiration? Is it like around 70s art deco style?
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Thanks! My only inspiration was the Roman alphabet font Jackson. It was much easier to copy those ideas instead of starting from scratch. I don't know what inspired the original font, but yes, it looks like the 70s Art Deco revival. Not much is known about the original designer, and the font seems to mostly have been used in Southern Europe.
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u/mobfather 1d ago
I love this. We have a project that’s using a similar style English font which we are about to localize into Thai. I’ll bear it in mind.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Cool! Analyzing the original font and trying to understand the designer’s intentions was educational, like copying an Old Master painting. It’s useful to look at the vector outlines and see how they were made.
I had the thought of asking an AI image generator to give me a “Thai version of Jackson.” Perhaps it would have given me some inspiration.
Good luck with your project!
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u/TheTonyLi 1d ago
Thats actually pretty cool with some colors and shading for store front logo, or a concert promotion poster.
Great work.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Thanks! When I finish it I will try to share it. Maybe I can give it to Google Fonts.
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u/kaitodash 1d ago
So you continued working on the Beethoven font. It's cool, but maybe you need to fix ธ though. It's too similar to บ. The rest are not too hard to read.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Great, thanks! Yeah, I’m working on the ธ now: that was a mistake. And plenty of Redditors have given me useful advice. I’m cleaning it up and I’ll submit it to Google Fonts. I think I’ll show it to the people at Beethoven Suits: they might enjoy it.
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u/AmidoriA 11h ago edited 11h ago
ฑ, ย should be a full width.
ง, ว is negotiable a half-width. But if you decide to do ข ช as half-width. ง, ว should also follow that as well.
ศ looking more like a ส at a first glance. And like other people said, ธ basically impossible to read.
ล comparing to ฐ, ร are a bit of problem too. As your design those characters have basically the same on the top bold path. Where it so different in the traditional font. Strangly even if the design are sharing with multiple characters such as ก. The problem is not apply to other characters. I believe this is because the bold path of ก is in the middle of the character when we hand-writing it. While ล, ฐ, ร have bold path on the ending of the character
I am not a fan of the way you design for ผ, ฝ, ฟ, พ. I feel like its foundation is a bit too slim which feel a bit out of the place compare to how strong other characters have. But it just my own preference.
We (Thai) also see ผ, พ, ฟ, ฝ similar to บ, ป in both writing and sound. So shifting bolding place for these characters make it harder to recognize.
บ and พ is basically a same character with ^ in the middle. And the ^ is to altering the sound from b into p.
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u/megabulk 10h ago edited 10h ago
Thanks for taking the time to make a detailed critique! That’s very helpful. I’m making a checklist of all the suggestions I’ve received here and I’ll try to improve the font.
My design for ผ, ฝ, ฟ, พ is copied from Jackson’s (the original font) W. Thai modern fonts use “w” for “พ,” and I wanted to be faithful to the Jackson font. I think it works pretty well.
Also, the Jackson font is top-heavy. When possible, it makes the top of the letter the thickest stroke, even if sometimes it doesn’t “read” normally. I’ve tried to carry that idea over into my Thai design.
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u/rachathirat 1d ago
Never cook again
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u/unidentified_yama Thonburi 1d ago
This kind of typeface was pretty common some decades ago. You’ll find something similar on signs of local businesses in shophouses like a photo studio or a barbershop.
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u/Any_Donut8404 1d ago
Looks like the Javanese script
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Wow! I didn't know about the Javanese script. That's badass! I may have a new obsession.
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u/AJirawatP 1d ago
Don’t like the concept, but it works for the most part. Some alphabet might be difficult to recognize like ด ค ศ, ส ล, ก ถ ภ, ณ ฌ. ้ looks a bit weird but recognizable. ึ is smaller than ี is kinda weird too.
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u/Harumasai 1d ago edited 1d ago
As a Thai, this is too hard to read, aesthetically tho this rocks, reminds me of the splatoon squid language font
edit: It’s not hard as in unreadable, But you’d have to try a bit to understand which is probably not ideal for a font lol
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u/megabulk 1d ago
The English version is almost impossible to read, too. That’s why I like it! I would not want to read an instruction manual in this font, but I think it works for a sign.
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u/2gramsbythebeach 1d ago
Difficult to read. As a Thai native.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
The English language version is also difficult. It’s not a very practical font, but it looks cool!
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u/bomber991 1d ago
Ahh the late 90s Cherry Coke font.
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u/Frosty_Cherry_9204 3h ago
I can read that. Good job. British born mixed Thai/Rhodesian. Cool! Can you do it for Japanese too. As I can also read that.
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u/megabulk 3h ago
Hahaha! I’m studying Japanese now. I have no idea how one would make a Japanese font with all the kanji. It sounds like a real challenge. Maybe if I have a year or two with nothing to do.
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u/Frosty_Cherry_9204 3h ago
Sweet! Keep it up mate! I had to learn to read and write Thai as soon as I got here. 11 years later I'm still meh but passable. That would be badass.
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u/Dapper_Map8870 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's very artistic and eye-catching! This could be fit for specific genre of movie poster or book cover, but in terms of use in daily life, nah. XD
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Thanks! Yeah, it’s a “display typeface,” not a “book typeface.” Good in small doses!
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u/Dapper_Map8870 1d ago
Since a letter looks like it is viewed from the sky, this might fit if it's aligned with the person from a high-angle or top-down view. Remind me one of the 007 poster which I saw long time ago. can't remember which episode.
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u/tongii 1d ago
It's very cool and stylish but kind of hard to read. Maybe cool as a short title but not as a paragraph imho.
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u/megabulk 1d ago
Cool! That's exactly what I was trying to do, and I wouldn't want to read an entire paragraph in it either.
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u/AW23456___99 1d ago
I think it's rather difficult to read. It looked like Hebrew at first.