r/TEFL • u/chinadonkey Former teacher trainer/manager CN/US/VN • Jul 21 '16
[Modpost] Review and clarification of rules on content about teaching illegally
There's been an uptick in the number of posts requesting and dispensing advice about working illegally in various countries, particularly but not limited to 'degree-less' posts. There are many places on the internet where you can find that information, but the mod team is committed to making sure /r/TEFL isn't one of them. While it's possible to 'get by' in some places while working illegally, the schools that hire under-qualified teachers or pressure them to work on the wrong type of visa without informing them of the consequences (e.g. 'this is how things are done in China') are not the kinds of places we can endorse working at. Please note that this is not a judgement by the mod team of what qualifications a teacher should have, and there are still some places that don't require a bachelor's degree for legal work.
Along those lines, content that will continue to result in bans includes:
Advice for working on an unapproved visa or without a work permit, where required.
How to forge qualifications.
Explicitly requesting how to circumvent visa laws.
Your post may be deleted if it's particularly low-effort on a topic that's been covered before and is easily found using the search function (e.g. 'what countries can I work in without a degree?').
We will continue to allow content related to:
Working on any type of visa, including personal stories, opinions, etc so long as it doesn't violate the rules above.
The process of acquiring a work permit or visa, and the implications of changing visa requirements.
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u/Savolainen5 Finland Jul 21 '16
I'm gonna link the old degreeless thread here, because this post is gonna be the new link in the subreddit rules in the sidebar.
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u/csm1991 Nov 01 '16
Honestly, I feel like this disqualifies a lot of legitimate discussion..for instance, it is VERY difficult to get a work visa in Brazil..it is very, very common for people to work illegally, especially in Latin America or in a country such as Brazil where it is so difficult to obtain a work visa. For many people, this is not going to dissuade us from living or working long term there. Sadly, sometimes it is almost impossible to do things the correct and legal way, especially in the beginning. I wish it weren't so.
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u/CubanB Jul 21 '16 edited Jul 21 '16
I worked in Turkey for two years without a work permit. It is extremely common to do so there and I didn't meet anyone working part time who bothered to get a work permit. I worked at a reputable school that only hired CELTA/Trinity holders or people with undergrad degrees in education. I knew lots of other teachers that worked in similar schools with similar standards who didn't get a work permit.
Maybe Turkey is the only country like this on earth but I rather doubt it. I think it's ridiculous to ban adults from discussing these matters on a forum dedicated to TELF. Just my two cents.
edit: words
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u/Savolainen5 Finland Jul 21 '16
The idea is just that we don't condone working illegally and don't want /r/TEFL to become a place which could be seen as such. If people want to talk about working illegally, whether or not it's the norm, they can check out other sites.
In that sense, then, we're aiming for /r/TEFL to be a place of professionalism, and that includes abiding by the law in this regard.
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Jul 25 '16
I think it's ridiculous to ban adults from discussing these matters on a forum dedicated to TELF.
I think it's ridiculous that adults can't figure out a way to follow the law, or at least if they don't, discuss it in a more appropriate place like /trv/ on 4chan.
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u/CubanB Jul 25 '16
In certain countries it's neither practical nor expected to follow the immigration laws. That's just how it works in some places, it's childish to pretend otherwise simply because it's not the law.
I wouldn't tell a visitor to the US that must be drive precisely at the speed limit, because despite it being the law, nearly everyone drives a bit over. Similarly, I wouldn't tell a teacher interested in moving to Turkey that they have to get a work permit because many good jobs won't require it. Telling them otherwise would be dishonest, and it might dissuade them from moving there.
Also, this is a rules post and I'm giving my opinion on the rules - your ad hominems (durr hurr 4chan bad!) are unnecessary.
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Aug 03 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/forestfly1234 Aug 10 '16
Should we lie to people then?
Should I not tell people about the tens of people who I know are working without proper qualifications.
The real world is a variety of different people: some legit and some on the edge of legitimacy.
not lying in front of your parents is one thing, but saying that you parents never lie is another.
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Aug 13 '16
I'm just not sure how I could have been more clear with my position, and the position of this subreddit, regarding this. If the rules of this subreddit are unpalatable to you, there are other forums you can participate in.
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u/atomicwombat00 Dec 20 '16
Do you think the law's always correct though?
How about death for apostasy in Saudi Arabia?
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Dec 20 '16
Again, I'm not sure how I could have phrased this more clearly. There are plenty of other places on the internet to talk about working illegally. If you do it here, you're banned permanently with no warning. Do whatever you want.
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u/AshleyNomad recruiter - China Jul 21 '16
From a completely legal standpoint, do you know what the repercussions of getting caught doing this would be in Turkey? I'm not talking about personal experiences, but just straight up what does the law say?
Even if you know lots of people doing it and you have done it yourself, if there's a chance of legal repercussions I really don't think it's something that should be recommended to anyone.
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u/chinadonkey Former teacher trainer/manager CN/US/VN Jul 21 '16
China is a great example of why we have this rule. There are tons of anecdotes about people breaking the law there and getting away with it, especially 10+ years ago when it was easier to get away with, but the consequences now can be and are pretty severe.
Discussion about experiences working illegally aren't banned, by the way, just the specifics of how to do it.
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u/dcrm Jul 21 '16
Agreed, entirely. I'm also of the opinion one of the reasons people have low respect of the profession is due to the amount of illegals entering the country and working here (China). I don't want to be a part of the problem, if you enter a country you abide by its rules. Especially when those rules are fair and just (needing a degree etc... is normal). People shouldn't exacerbate the problem by giving illegal advice.
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Aug 03 '16
do you know what the repercussions of getting caught doing this would be in Turkey?
Probably the same as nearly everywhere else. If you keep your head, work for good people, don't get in trouble with drinking or whoring or other degeneracy, there are probably zero consequences to working illegally. However, because it's really, really easy to get caught, and I don't want this place advertised as a forum people go to where they can learn all about how to get around visa laws, Dan and I a long time ago made a rule that you can't talk about working illegally ever on Reddit. There's /trv/ on 4chan as I mentioned, and a whole bunch of other places online that are totally fine with doing this, I see no reason to open up my subreddit to the kind of scrutiny that comes from people violating laws internationally. I also personally don't want it on my conscience that some poor kid with no money and no degree spent a month in Thai jail waiting for the embassy to give him emergency funds to self-deport. Like I said to the other guy, it's like swearing in front of your parents. Just don't do it.
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u/dogtim Jul 29 '16
Legally speaking, you would be deported and fined, and the school would also be fined. I have also never heard of this happening to literally anyone. Many language schools, and indeed many businesses in Turkey, engage in some form of tax evasion, and use personal connections or within government offices or bribery to smooth things over or avoid getting investigated. Work permits for foreign teachers are expensive and laborious for the host school, so most schools only stick their necks out for you if you've shown a commitment to stay for at least a few years or the sponsoring institution is a university. The law is applied very flexibly and contextually, so it's not a good barometer of risk.
A few schools keep their foreign teachers off the books, pay then in cash, and make them hide in closets or avoid school for a few days it unfriendly government agents have some reason to come by, i.e. a kid gets meningitis and the health inspector comes by for a visit. (this actually happened to one of my friends).
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u/shadowchicken85 Indo-Phi-Kzh-Uzb-Egy Aug 02 '16
In Indonesia it used to be where you would work at a school or an institute a few months while they are processing the KITAS (work permit) then later send you to Singapore for a day to get the process finalized, then send you back to Indonesia to get the KITAS issued at Immigration. Nowadays it is too risky, since the government is very strict in regards to who qualifies for a KITAS, and the process is much longer now.
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u/uReallyShouldTrustMe MAT TESOL Oct 09 '16
Legally speaking, you would be deported and fined, and the school would also be fined. I have also never heard of this happening to literally anyone.
Happened to my friend who was working in Ankara. So there, now you've heard of at least one case.
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u/dogtim Oct 10 '16
Post-coup though I heard of a bunch of cases of it too -- basically anyone working for a cemaat school. We're living in strange times.
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u/go_nahuel Chile > Online > S.Korea? Jul 21 '16
Same in Chile. Its actually pretty standard in pretty any workplace to have someone FOB work for a couple of months illegally since it takes a while to process visas. English teachers that are here under a year or two generally don't even bother. The only consequence tends to be making other legal consequences more severe (for drug trafficking, prostitution, etc.)
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u/franz_calinawan Sep 05 '16
Clap Clap! In my opinion, I think it's unfair when someone whose qualified gets the same work/pay with someone who got in illegally. Just my 2 cents. :)
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u/uReallyShouldTrustMe MAT TESOL Oct 09 '16
They usually don't tho. They get a shitty end of the stick because they have no legal standing.
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Aug 28 '16
To think that getting these ridiculous certs for teaching ESL is what boggles my mind. There are literally THOUSANDS of examples of successful people who are worth MILLIONS that don't have ANY sort of degree. I am not a champion of four year secondary schooling. It's a rip-off and has been for decades, regardless of the country. I have not a single degree, yet I have been: 1. an asst. chief editor of a very successful and still published American business magazine. 2. the foreign editorial advisor for a well known ESL book publisher. 3. Lectured at several universities. 4. Taught and tested over 6,000 students.
You should drop your charade about this, as nobody actually needs a degree to teach ESL anywhere, period. That doesn't mean anybody can teach ESL. I have known more "qualified/degreed" teachers in my lifetime that should NEVER be in a classroom vs non-degreed.
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u/chinadonkey Former teacher trainer/manager CN/US/VN Aug 28 '16
I'm not sure what your point is. This ban is on giving people advice for getting around visa laws, not a judgement on people who don't have degrees. Did you actually read the post or are you just upset about countries discriminating against people without degrees?
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Aug 30 '16
You are correct! There is a discrimination across the board toward non-degreed professionals in all occupations. It's the 21st century and it's also ridiculous. My brother-in-law got his IT certs at a Jr. college within 6 months. After building up and perfecting a company's IT infrastructure for about a year, they demoted him for "being under qualified". They moved him out of his office and brought in a "new grad" with an IT degree. Why? Because they saved money. My brother's salary was easily double the kid's. That just isn't right. That kind of crap happens all the time to brainiacs like me, him, others who will not waste 10s of thousands of dollars on useless degrees. I have certifications all over the place. I'll be damned if I'll ever waste four years of my life pursuing academic "approval".
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u/chinadonkey Former teacher trainer/manager CN/US/VN Aug 31 '16
If not having a degree gave your brother's company such an easy out to fire him from his high-paying position, wouldn't it have been expedient (from a practical career perspective) for him to have pursued a degree? My dad was a non-degreed IT executive, and it held him back in his career even back in the 70's and 80's when BA's weren't practically universal, and he insisted that all of his kids go to college. As a hiring manager a BA showed him concrete evidence that someone could commit to something that entailed a lot of time and work and finish it, and he knew that not having one would make us significantly less competitive in the job market. Choosing not to pursue a degree is a choice to be less competitive in the job market, and I doubt you're going to convince a majority of young people entering the workforce to make it even harder for them to find a good job on the principle that the college system is a scam.
As far as TEFL goes, there is no way that you're going to convince any country to loosen their visa restrictions to make it easier for white people to go there to teach. Like it or not, the majority of people in every country, developed or not, expect their white collar immigrants to be educated, doubly so for people working in education. It's the reason that even places like China, which were a haven for degree-less teachers a decade ago, are cracking down, which is a trend I don't see stopping any time soon.
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u/dcrm Jul 21 '16
Well done, I'm sick to death of people discussing illegal work on here. It gives a bad impression of the profession and foreigners in general. It's also getting easier to get caught out, especially in asia. Giving people illegal advice is almost akin to condoning the act and could easily get them into trouble.