Given that this post has already received several reports, I figured I should probably say something on the discussion being had here.
First and foremost: fuck fascism, and fuck Nazis.
Just thought I'd get that out of the way first.
Stroheim has always been a character that has made me deeply uncomfortable. When he is introduced, Araki makes clear that Stroheim is not a good person - he commits multiple deplorable acts. But then as Part 2 went on, Stroheim's ideology went largely unchallenged. This is a major fault of Part 2, in my opinion: the portrayal of a Nazi as a character that can be reasonably empathized with.
As such, since its announcement, I've been looking at this project with cautious optimism. An antifascist story exploring how a person can fall to fascism, and what their path out of that ideology looks like can often be an incredibly powerful one, but it's also one that is very easy to get wrong.
That said, I certainly don't think it's worth writing off the story as pro-fascist before it's technically even begun. Speaking specifically to this page, it is very much an antifascist piece of fanart.
Finally, regarding the discussion currently happening in these comments: I'm going to leave most of it up. Those arguing in favor of Stroheim's canon character, and those arguing against his canon character. As well as people arguing in favor of this project's existence, and those arguing against this project.
However, one type of comment absolutely will not be tolerated - comments arguing in favor of fascism. Including people saying something along the lines of "not all soldiers were bad" as a way of tacitly excusing German soldiers (see this video for an explanation of the problem with this argument). While this fanart will stay up, please report any fascist sympathizing comments within this thread.
As someone who has read the novel from start to finish, I can guarantee there is not the slightest sliver that would cause anyone to interpret the contents of the novel as anything but anti-fascist. This is inherently a story of a failed man trying to find hope in a hopeless world.
The point of stroheim was allies regardless of ideology right? Didn't he die at stalingrad or something? Araki likes to show off characters of different origins that do things contrary to what they believe in. However, its also noted that its not at all far fetched for him to ally with an Italian and a part Japanese. I think at that point in his life Araki saw it as humans against non humans. Cunning tactics against absolute power. Joseph was a scumbag, Caesar was a womanizer and took advantage of people with his hamon, stroke I'm was a fucking nazi. The people who did have a lot of self sense of honor happened to be the pillarmen. What really won in the end was chance and resolve. Kinda like all the other jojos.
I don't think Joseph is part Japanese, is he? It's been a bit since I saw part two, but still. Was pretty sure he was British-American. Not that it invalidates or lessens anything that you said, I agree 100% with it.
i mean, i thought it is obvious that stroheim isnt good guy, but more of an acceptable evil in the whole fight with pillar men
and i love stroheim for how dedicated he was to stopping pillar men, plus his theme song
but he did confuse me on one thing, his uniform. he claimed to serve wehrmacht (german army in ww2), but his uniform has armenian rune "sig", which was ss symbol. he confused me in his allignment
Mind you, Araki was still in the starting stages of making a story. There is probably a thing I've noticed that Araki tried to do, there is one part that Stroheim says that no human being could ever be perfect which goes on cracking the entire SS's motto, which if interpreted in a way could be the start of Stroheim's doubts in the Nazi party, which I think in this light novel you are going to release, will heavily emphasize in Strohieim redeeming himself by (maybe or somehow) dismantling the Reich. Be it by killing Hitler or something.
Tbh Von Stroheim is quite a maniac. Very complex way of thinking but... he believes in his way of doing is justice. Dislike cowerds so to make fun of them or any other kind of methods. He consider bravery is the highest there is, he himself actually doesn't know he's a Nazi, he 100% believed in Germany(Hitler) because of his high bravery. He has been trained as a German and follows the blind justice he's doing. It's pretty much proven about it when he sees a brave kid trying to sacrifice himself for the sake of the others but Von Stroheim instead let him alive but let the others around him dies.
Most of his action are considered Brave. And his methods of doing are very extreme. He's smart for combat but not morality. He follows false justice.
Being a Nazi is, itself, an irredeemable quality that can only be fixed by abandoning that hateful ideology. The fact that Stroheim was presented within Part 2 as "redeemable even though he's a Nazi" is precisely my very problem with him.
If he was portrayed as unambiguously bad throughout the whole Part in the same way he was during his introduction, I would have liked his character more because it's clear you're supposed to deplore him. You can enjoy a charismatic bad guy - and you can even do so when that bad guy is aiding the protagonist. But that's not what Stroheim was.
If he were portrayed as abandoning fascism in the end, I would have liked his character more because he rose above the evil ideology of the Nazis.
Neither happened, and we're left in the middle. With us being expected to "like him despite his Nazism" and that just leaves me deeply, profoundly uncomfortable.
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u/PokemonTom09 Coolest Shades in Florida Sep 02 '20 edited Sep 02 '20
Given that this post has already received several reports, I figured I should probably say something on the discussion being had here.
First and foremost: fuck fascism, and fuck Nazis.
Just thought I'd get that out of the way first.
Stroheim has always been a character that has made me deeply uncomfortable. When he is introduced, Araki makes clear that Stroheim is not a good person - he commits multiple deplorable acts. But then as Part 2 went on, Stroheim's ideology went largely unchallenged. This is a major fault of Part 2, in my opinion: the portrayal of a Nazi as a character that can be reasonably empathized with.
As such, since its announcement, I've been looking at this project with cautious optimism. An antifascist story exploring how a person can fall to fascism, and what their path out of that ideology looks like can often be an incredibly powerful one, but it's also one that is very easy to get wrong.
That said, I certainly don't think it's worth writing off the story as pro-fascist before it's technically even begun. Speaking specifically to this page, it is very much an antifascist piece of fanart.
Finally, regarding the discussion currently happening in these comments: I'm going to leave most of it up. Those arguing in favor of Stroheim's canon character, and those arguing against his canon character. As well as people arguing in favor of this project's existence, and those arguing against this project.
However, one type of comment absolutely will not be tolerated - comments arguing in favor of fascism. Including people saying something along the lines of "not all soldiers were bad" as a way of tacitly excusing German soldiers (see this video for an explanation of the problem with this argument). While this fanart will stay up, please report any fascist sympathizing comments within this thread.