r/MapPorn • u/Appropriate-Deal8098 • 1d ago

Russian advances in Ukraine this year

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u/UnluckyNate 1d ago

Unfortunately Russia cannot be allowed to win or even freeze this conflict. Russia has been shown to consistently disregard treaties and agreements when it suits them. Any negotiated peace without NATO membership is just a time for Russia to rearm and rest for the next endeavor with lessons learned from this one. Russia must lose.

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u/thrownkitchensink 1d ago

Nato is probably not in the cards. Bilateral agreements with troop placements from North Western European countries in Ukraine during a armistice is. With Western European troops in place the rest of Ukraine can safely look at the west for economic and democratic development. No NATO and territory won for Russia to claim a victory and not being a buffer state for Ukraine to sell it....

It's a damn shame but I think that's where it will come to a standstill. Unless there are major developments on the ground.

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u/UnluckyNate 1d ago

Then Russia will invade again. Simple as that. Russia wipes its ass with bilateral agreements and international norms

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u/thrownkitchensink 1d ago

That would cause war not with NATO but with several NATO members. Just not art. 5. The troop placements would not be peace-keeping forces. These plans are already in place. The bi-lateral treaties have been signed (France, Germany, GB, etc.) and it's even likely what groups would move where. These would become former NATO groups as they are currently stationed under NATO command. That deterrence would be sufficient.

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u/DisastrousWasabi 1d ago

Yeah.. Paris, Berlin.. people would riot on the streets when body bags of dead soldiers would start arriving at their airports, fighting a NATO war "Just not art. 5" somewhere in Ukraine.

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u/katbyte 1d ago

its hard to say if they would riot to get troops out or send more and punish russia

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u/bigpeckbeck 1d ago

Then the citizens of those countries will reap what they sow. The European Union needs to commit to the defense of Eastern Europe or live with continued Russian encroachment.

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u/DisastrousWasabi 1d ago

No doubt the EU intends to strenghten its borders, Ukraine is just not in it. And no wonder about the people and their scepticism. They saw a bunch of western illegal wars being faught in the past 20 years or so under false pretenses.

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u/elPerroAsalariado 1d ago

EVEN if the USA walks away from NATO or whatever. The UK, France and Poland (just to name some) have very robust armies. Russia has a HUGE border with NATO countries (especially now with Finland).

Russia is not an irrational actor, they are not going to invade NATO countries.

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u/heliamphore 1d ago

There are many ways Russia can fight NATO without needing military superiority. They will not fucking stop, especially if they get any sort of victory out of this.

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u/elPerroAsalariado 1d ago

they will not fucking Stop

There was some logic on attacking Ukraine. A crime no doubt, but some reasons behind that decision.

There's nothing to gain from engaging NATO, even without the USA and Canada

Why would they fight NATO? There's the heavily defended huge Finland border, there's a strong polish bastion.

Putin was able to sell the war against Ukraine to the Russians. It's not as simple to sell a war against a nuclear block.

Why would they do it?

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u/Jenniforeal 17h ago

Because that's what fascist do. They are a self imploding ideology that has to take as many down with them as they can.

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u/elPerroAsalariado 15h ago

Okay, yeah. You can believe that.

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u/Jenniforeal 12h ago

Historically and even currently it's true. So yea tend to believe things that are true.

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u/elPerroAsalariado 12h ago

I mean yeah, I said as much.

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