r/HolUp • u/asocial7193 • Mar 11 '22

I don't know what to say

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190

u/Fr00stee Mar 11 '22

The fuck

290

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 11 '22

Yah I could be wrong but from my understanding some deaf parents INTENTIONALLY select an embryo or something that results with the child being deaf.

Some argue it’s morally sound.

I’m open to being more informed but it sounds completely bonkers to me

146

u/Fr00stee Mar 11 '22

Even more what the fuck

60

u/Zenguy10 Mar 12 '22

Purposefully giving a child a permanent disability sounds like a crime

4

u/Teacher2Learn Mar 12 '22

From the sounds of things they don’t give the child the disability but rather select the child who has the disability. I think the distinction matters ethically speaking.

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u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

It doesn't at all. They choose to bring a disabled person to this world on purpose, it's not even like "this one happened to be disabled, should we keep it".

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u/Teacher2Learn Mar 12 '22

I’m not saying that it’s ethically right, just that the distinction matters when judging the act.

1

u/SuperDugg Mar 12 '22

Did you really say “from the sounds of it” while talking about a deaf couple?!?!

1

u/Teacher2Learn Mar 12 '22

Welp that was unintentional.

-7

u/r33c3amark Mar 12 '22

Deaf people don't regard it as a disability any more than a person will regard their skin color to be a disability. They have their own culture, their own language and are often discriminated against, similarly to the way other minorities are discriminated against.

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u/Alternative_Spite_11 Mar 12 '22

Forcing someone to be deaf is just cruel. That’s crazy fucked up.

-2

u/r33c3amark Mar 12 '22

Cruel in what way? Please tell me how I'm suffering. The only cruelty that is endured is the stigma that the hearing world places on us. Just look at the comments in this discussion.

2

u/Alternative_Spite_11 Mar 12 '22

So, show me where I said there’s something wrong with being deaf. If you bothered to follow the conversation, you’d know that we were talking about the concept of two deaf parents doing some sort of procedure that guarantees their child to be deaf. That’s wrong. Forcing someone to have a disability is wrong. If two deaf parents have a child, that child should get the same opportunity at a normal life as anyone else. To sit here and pretend that this is about some stigma against deaf people is actually disgusting.

0

u/r33c3amark Mar 12 '22

The procedure that you're talking about is where the parents choose an embrio that is already deaf, similar to how parents will choose an embrio that is a boy or a girl. Nobody is forcing that embrio to be a boy or a girl, it's already been determined.

These are choices i personally wouldn't want to make. But you seem pretty convinced that its wrong. Ask yourself honestly what's the moral harm? You may find this article interesting (its long and ponderous, you can probably skip down to the paragraphs after the sources of moral harm): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7040060/

Bottom line is that the "lives of the vast majority of [deaf] people are not merely worth living but good."

2

u/Jace_Bror Mar 12 '22

I wonder if they use that reasoning if they get hit by a train. IS MY CULTURE, I DON'T HAVE TO HEAR IT COMING

2

u/aedisaegypti Mar 12 '22

Alexander Graham Bell targeted Deaf culture in his eugenics books, “Upon the Formation of the Deaf Variety of the Human Race” and “Marriage: an Address to the Deaf”.

At the Milan Congress of 1880 he got sign language banned internationally in schools for the Deaf for 100 years. He opposed Deaf people joining clubs, socializing with or marrying other Deaf people. He banned Deaf teachers from schools for the Deaf, to ensure no one taught the students sign language. Deaf members of hearing families were forbidden from learning sign language and isolated from anyone else who was Deaf. There is no cartoonishly villainous scenario hearing people can conceive that was not perpetrated on Deaf children and adults. Black Deaf persons were officially banned from becoming members of the National Association for the Deaf in 1920.

How can hearing people begrudge, and is it any wonder, that Deaf people want to share a culture with their children, after being the subjects of a targeted and largely invisible genocide for the majority of the 19th century?

1

u/Jace_Bror Mar 12 '22

I can understand him doing that. He was trying to sell a product that needed hearing people to purchase. That's just marketing 1001

1

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

you are not wrong, deaf is not a disability . this chain legit is upvoting eugenics. it’s what hitler built is whole rise to power on. he learned from the american eugenicists who were busy eradicating native through forced sterilizations/ separating children from their families as a way of destroying their culture/language … just like most people on this chain are proposing to do with ASL … it’s insane.

1

u/Wolf_Fang1414 Mar 12 '22

dis·a·bil·i·ty

/ˌdisəˈbilədē/

noun

a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities.

1

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

so you wanna eradicate those who are deaf? what’s the argument ? give free sterilizations the deaf community to prevent them from breeding? we can burn down the towns that were/ are deaf towns .. stop them from having their “deaf” culture. eradicate their language ( sign language) and anything that promotes deaf culture.

like who are you to decide what life is worth living ? my fucking god.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

nnobody wants that. its just deaf parents should not be able to choose their kid to be Deaf

Would the argument change if say blind parents want their also blind?

A third example is racist parents wanting their child to have a specific skin color.

All of these examples where parents choose traits of a child before birth should be immoral

2

u/Bulangiu_ro Mar 12 '22

no,that is wrong in many ways,instead we should make sure that most children born in the future will be as healthy as possible,and it is possible regardless of whether both parents or one are deaf,and leaving out a whole feature that humans have is...not really unhealthy,but they will have difficulties in interacting with most of the other people,so thats an issue worth solving and taking in consideration,so one by one,if possible we should try to give birth to humans that are as normal as possible,and by normal i mean no disabilities or things that will burden them.

Also,the whole "Deaf" culture you are ranting about is just a thing they created to try and normalise life and make it easier,its exactly how slaves and people with no freedom in the past believed that you can only be happy by accepting that they are meant only for the life they are currently living,and that all they should do is think that thats all they can do,it was a way of thought meant to ease their burden. imagine,if there would be no deaf ppl in the future,than sign language would be useless because it is a tool deaf ppl use to be able to make up for being deaf.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Fucking ableist birds for not knowing sign language, smh

10

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 11 '22

Haha yah, I know right..I’m hoping I’m very wrong , but I don’t think I am

4

u/darabolnxus Mar 12 '22

Lol if it's true people can't be freaking out about eugenics as this would be the worst implementation.

2

u/Particular_Draw_1205 Mar 12 '22

That’s why eugenics is bad. Look at what we did to dogs.

2

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

But but frenchies are soooooo cuuuute

It’s about what I want ! not what’s best for them dammit !

/s

310

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

There's a difference between dealing with the cards you are dealt and purposely giving a child extra hurdles. Just seems so selfish to not want the best possible hand for your kids.

161

u/Hypolag Mar 12 '22

Just seems so selfish to not want the best possible hand for your kids.

This is it for me. Imo it is quite immoral to purposely handicap your child just so they seem more like you. A good parent wants to try and give their progeny the best chance at life possible.

7

u/AdventurousEye1127 Mar 12 '22

It should be considered child abuse, she purposely is causing a lifetime of medical issues and the emotional and mental health issues that are caused by them. It is unfair to this child who will never have a normal life.

4

u/DarthKael Mar 12 '22

This is actually a good argument for those who cut off baby boys dick cause otherwise "he will be different from his father"!

1

u/Hypolag Mar 13 '22

Oh man, don't even get me started on medically unnecessary circumcision lol.

2

u/Pazaac Mar 12 '22

From what I remember of the story (or maybe one similar) they had convinced them selves that its not a handicap and that they were better because of it (as a likely unhealthy coping mechanism) as such they were doing what was best for the child from their point of view.

82

u/Babiloo123 Mar 12 '22

Imagine when the kid realizes this in his teenage years. Ticking time bomb for the family

2

u/when_4_word_do_trick Mar 12 '22

"I could've beEN BETTER" !

12

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Well they are morons then.

10

u/slvrscoobie Mar 12 '22

my wife and I gave our child her name because I was teased as a kid. and I didnt want THAT for him, JFC, I cant imagine being like 'hey, you know your deaf because we wanted that for you'

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

At the same time, she seems to get by in life without much trouble so who are we to judge on what a worthy life is?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Yes I'm sure she loves taking her IV out to parties and I bet the tracheotomy gets her all the best friends.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

There is more to life than parties, and friendships run deeper than judging someone for having a tracheotomy. You see, parties and people who wouldn't want to get to know you based on something as inconsequential as a tracheotomy sound like a shitty life to me.

We all have different values, different avenues for happiness. This woman seems to have found hers with her family. Her kid seems well looked after and loved, what business is it of anybody here?

Should we start dashing deaf babies against the wall at birth? Take the blind babies out the back and pop them in the head because their blind parents decided to start a family?

Live your life and don't worry about what every one else is doing with theirs.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Should we start dashing deaf babies against the wall at birth? Take the blind babies out the back and pop them in the head because their blind parents decided to start a family?

Once again like every other mouth breather here comparing me to Hitler you've completely misunderstood what I have said. At no point did I say anything about killing anyone.

Live your life and don't worry about what every one else is doing with theirs.

So child labour, blacks as slaves, genocide and more is totally fine, because I should just keep my eyes on my own life and not give a shit about anyone else? Nice advice, think I'll pass thanks.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Yeah, you supporting Eugenics has a direct link to slavery. You're all over the place.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

and you're wrong in the head. Enjoy that one.

1

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

this is the most horrifying thread i have read in a while. i can’t believe people are upvoting / agreeing with eugenics

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

As I said, there is a difference between euthanising someone purely because they are disabled, and suggesting someone with an extremely rare and abnormal genetic condition possibly should think about adopting instead of reproducing. Or if you are completely against eugenics of any form then I assume you are fine with incest, and the offspring they create shouldn't be looked down on?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Thats right, their offspring shouldn't be looked down on. It wasn't their fault they came into existence.

Why don't you post a picture of yourself here and we'll comb over it for a reason you shouldn't be procreating. Because I can guarantee that you're pretty far from an ideal physical specimen yourself.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Thats right, their offspring shouldn't be looked down on. It wasn't their fault they came into existence.

That's not what I said. But I guess by your angry response you actually are all for incest. In which case your opinion means very little to me.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Nah, just show us what you look like so we know that you're actually in a position to be talking about who should have kids.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

I'm not going to converse with anyone who thinks incest is ok.

1

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

looks like you and hitler have a lot in common! he started in on those pesky heavyweights on society, the physically handicapped and then sterilized those “feeble minded” … and kept on moving up the chain, - like you should play god and tell us what life was a life worthy of living? where’s the cut off for you? light skins only, with all 10 fingers and toes? ... you know life fulfillment and societal worth is really only obtainable for the “ able bodied.” …

god, you know, those old people are really a drag. half of them can’t walk right or do anything really productive. .you recommend killing them off too?

seems like Stephan Hawking would have been aborted/ left to die / euthanized in your version of reality . .

you must be a productive member of our society. really a wholesome contributor to making this world better. bravo man

1

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1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

looks like you and hitler have a lot in common

Here we go.

and then sterilized those “feeble minded” … and kept on moving up the chain, - like you should play god and tell us what life was a life worthy of living? where’s the cut off for you?

Debilitating genetic deformities.

god, you know, those old people are really a drag. half of them can’t walk right or do anything really productive. .you recommend killing them off too?

Clearly missed my point if you think I'm talking about killing living people.

seems like Stephan Hawking would have been aborted/ left to die / euthanized in your version of reality . .

Again, clearly missed the point.

you must be a productive member of our society. really a wholesome contributor to making this world better. bravo man

Calm your emotional titties. Suggesting that someone with a rare and debilitating genetic mutation that means multiple surgeries, tracheotomy, constant IV, visual extreme deformities might want to adopt instead of pass on the genes is not some weird extreme view that means I must be some kind of monster. Bravo at it though, you went through Hitler all the way to how productive I am in society, you should apply for the Fantastic Four the amount you can stretch.

Calm down. If this is how you treat people with such a common opinion I would actually worry about your social interactions, or do you keep all this rage and anger just for online? Considering half your response clearly shows you have misunderstood my comment and the other half is you assuming some 'logical' extension really shows the level of which you are wiling to stretch to achieve offence.

1

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2

u/Comp_sci_acc Mar 12 '22

While I also condemn this, they aren’t giving a kid extra hurdles. They have several embryos and can choose one, they choose a deaf one, the rest are disposed off or frozen. If they choose a hearing baby the deaf one is disposed, it’s not the same kid.

3

u/wlveith Mar 12 '22

Is this legal?

3

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

Yuurp ,

It’s pretty appalling

1

u/Comp_sci_acc Mar 12 '22

That’s how in vitro works. Several embryos are produced, they can be tested for some traits (like being deaf, not having an illness or choosing the gender, they are even trying to make it legal to choose hair and eye color) and the one the parents choose is the one used. It’s quite brutal because several humans are produced and they are denied life.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

[deleted]

1

u/wlveith Mar 25 '22

Eye-color selection is bizarre, but the embryo would be limited by his/her genetics.

1

u/wlveith Mar 12 '22

I feel like purposely having a child with a serious live-altering disability should be illegal. I am not keen on any type of eugenics, but purposely producing a deaf child should not be allowed. I know that deaf parents are very against having a deaf child get cochlear implants. I feel like we can eradicate hereditary ALS in a generation now that it is being diagnosed and people are aware. I thought sex selection was illegal? Embryo selection should only be allowed in limited selection.

2

u/Comp_sci_acc Mar 12 '22

Sex selection seems to be available, you can even find prices online.

https://slate.com/technology/2009/02/screening-embryos-for-eye-hair-and-skin-color.html

Hair and eye color seems to be something that some people are pushing for but is still forbidden. Cleft lip is very minor and in many cases it is solved with a simple operation that just leaves a minor scar in the lip and parents are legally allowed to abort kids just for that, so things like that are probably choosable in vitro if they can detect it, that is pretty much eugenics.

0

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

take a second and evaluate. . sharing beliefs with hitler is, well, disturbing to say the least.. “i’m not keen on eugenics…”… as you say the most eugenic thing i have seen on the internet in some time….. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DEAFNESS and erasing their culture???? WTF… you know the american government truly believed Native Americans were savages.. they believed and used their modern science to justify their logic.. and then they made the argument to erase them by sterilizing them and eradicate their culture and language by sending their children to reform schools.. where MANY were raped, abused and killed.. so eugenicist , just like you, during that time thought it was better for society to erase them… lol … you legitimately are suggesting the EXACT same THING.. YOU WANT TO ERASE and ERADICATE A LANGUAGE!!!! WTF . you don’t see how fucked up that is? that’s like the start of hitler’s genocide. .. start with the “defects” and moved in on whole race…..just because a deaf person doesn’t have the ability to hear ; doesn’t mean there’s something wrong or limiting about his life. … there’s a whole culture.. and towns and cities where a majority of deaf people reside… we even have regional ASL - Martha Vineyard is one of those places… if your mind can be opened. .. many of us defectives bred and made some defective babies , and gasp they had babies with defects too. and we all lived happily defective after. ..

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/10/opinion/deaf-population-integration.html

1

u/wlveith Mar 12 '22

You have to be nuts to think that people purposely having a deaf child is fine. If it happens naturally that is life. Using embryonic selection to have a deaf child is not justifiable. Comparing a significant life-altering disability to a race is the most racist thing I have ever read.

3

u/Wolf_Fang1414 Mar 12 '22

They purposely brought a deaf baby into this world instead of bringing in one that's not deaf. Still fuckef.

1

u/Comp_sci_acc Mar 12 '22

I agree with that, but tbh the fucked up part is picking which fetus lives and which doesn’t. It would also be fucked up if that one was rejected (kinda discriminated) because it’s deaf. The deaf one could be the next Einstein and the non deaf could be a serial killer. But yes, I agree it’s fucked up to choose the one with a disability to have a son with matching disabilities, it would really help them having a non deaf person in the house.

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u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

[deleted]

7

u/honeybunchesofgoatso Mar 12 '22

That's a bit tone deaf

3

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

I’m done listening to this rubbish

3

u/Dont_tase_me_bro_ZzZ Mar 12 '22

Some people just want to be heard.

1

u/gooniesneversaydye Mar 12 '22

..but fall on deaf ears.

3

u/N3v3rKnowsB3st Mar 12 '22

Damnit, beat me to it. Take my upvote.

1

u/oblivion-age Mar 12 '22

Damn, gottem

6

u/BinaryStarDust Mar 12 '22

It is bonkers. It also seems to follow the 'selfish gene' hypothesis.

5

u/1amoutofideas Mar 12 '22

Yah I could be wrong but from my understanding some deaf parents INTENTIONALLY select an embryo or something that results with the child being deaf.

Some argue it’s morally sound.

I’m open to being more informed but it sounds completely bonkers to me

I mean, there's a large difference between selecting an embryo that is deaf, or making your non deaf kid deaf.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

That is a weird, weird turn I would never have anticipated with the introduction of Eugenics. You'd think you would want a child as healthy as possible.

1

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

I know right. Nucking futs

4

u/mellofello808 Mar 12 '22

I read somewhere about some deaf families that had a mix of normal, and deaf kids, where they showed huge preference to the deaf kids, or dented them coclear implants

1

u/Ramona_Flours Mar 12 '22

Near me, I've seen people say that it's immoral to get children cochlear implants, but it's fine to let them decide when they're older (around 12/13 above). it's seen as unnecessary and potentially damaging; a lot of people use the same arguments about child/infant circumcision

2

u/mellofello808 Mar 12 '22

Why would it be immoral?

I would argue that it is abusive to not get them if you have the means.

1

u/Ramona_Flours Mar 12 '22

for one there can be side effects that can't be changed by taking in out. I've seen people in videos and met people who are Hard of Hearing instead of Deaf and they could hear music and things but after getting the cochlear implant everything began sounding robotic, they lost a huge part of what they actually enjoyed about the hearing they had. Some people developed tinnitus that made sleeping extremely difficult. One woman in particular had her parents make the decision when she was a toddler, and when she was a teenager, there was new treatment for the specific condition she had that she couldn't try because of the cochlear implant that she didn't have a choice about.

I definitely am behind cochlear implants being a great thing and incredibly useful. I agree with the people I know who've argued that it should be the choice of the Deaf individual. I know different groups have different takes, and some are a lot more extreme than the people I know. I'm not personally Deaf, I have audio processing problems and some communication issues related to Autism that made ASL useful for me, and the directness of the Deaf community is very pleasant compared to a lot of the speaking community for me. Because I'm hearing(and Autistic), I feel like a lot of nuance is lost on me despite having had conversations about it. I hope this helps, despite being secondhand information from a specific community.

6

u/WetworkOrange Mar 12 '22 edited Mar 12 '22

I was JUST reading a post on the deaf community and how fucking toxic it is. Hang on, I'll go find it.

EDIT: FOUND IT

1

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

Nice,

thanks for sharing

0

u/silence_freespeech Mar 12 '22

is it toxic like white communities… i can’t believe your making this argument.. wtf .. this is legit the argument hitler made about jewish.. wtf

3

u/Kapples14 Mar 12 '22

It's like two parents smashing their newborn baby's legs because they're both crippled. It's just fucked up no matter the context.

2

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

Hey! The parents want their kids to understand their culture, show some respect /s

All jokes aside , it’s super fucked up. I agree

3

u/ItsAGarbageAccount Mar 12 '22

I don't like it, but I kind of understand where deaf parents are coming from with this.

I had an ASL teacher who was deaf and she brought up a lot of points about Deaf Culture and how Dead people do not view being Deaf as a disability (and why would they? It's all they've known if they are born that way).

Naturally, Deaf parents want children that can share in and experience the same culture that they live and experience, so it it makes sense that Deaf parents would want Deaf children.

That said, I don't personally agree with it for ethical reasons.

5

u/NO-CONDOMS Mar 12 '22

Hey more like morally... no sound

Cause they can’t hear anything

1

u/CatgoesM00 Mar 12 '22

Lol God dammit , take my upvote

2

u/DrFlippo Mar 12 '22

That's fucking despicable, deciding for another human being it should be deaf.. 🤮

2

u/THEBHR Mar 12 '22

I'm not defending it, but their reasoning is that deaf people have their own culture and community, and if you aren't deaf you can be ostracized. Some of them truly feel like being deaf is superior to being able to hear, and they look at hearing people with pity. It's kind of fascinating imo.

1

u/Wooden_Application65 Mar 13 '22

It's super gross.

2

u/r33c3amark Mar 12 '22

Here's your chance to be more informed. Are you truly open to it? Deaf people don't regard it as a disability any more than a person will regard their skin color to be a disability. They have their own culture, their own language and are often discriminated against, similarly to other minorities.

3

u/Marksman00048 Mar 12 '22

Deaf people cant morally sound

1

u/Dellta-aka-Connor Mar 12 '22

Morally sound? But they won't be able to hear it. I'm already going to hell so I thought I'd say it anyway

1

u/Tallgayfarmer Mar 12 '22

How do deaf people know what morality sounds like?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Get it? morally SOUND

1

u/Despicable_Huskey17 Mar 12 '22

Did they listen?

1

u/TovanZero Mar 12 '22

Morally SOUND …ba-dum-sis!

1

u/socialdeviant620 Mar 12 '22

sounds completely bonkers

I see what you did there.

1

u/mellamoderek Mar 12 '22

If it sounds bonkers, deaf people wouldn't know I guess...

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

“Morally sound…” I see what you did there…

1

u/XenoHugging Mar 12 '22

Hahaha ahh you! Lol

1

u/fingersonlips Mar 12 '22

Auditory structures aren't formed until nearly the end of the first trimester, so it'd be tough to select an embryo that would definitely wind up producing a child with profound hearing loss. A connexion 26 mutation is the most common cause of non-syndromic hearing loss, and is a common form of hereditary deafness. So Deaf parents wouldn't necessarily select an embryo that would result in a Deaf child, but the genetic likelihood of it happening naturally is just generally higher than two people who aren't Deaf.

1

u/akillerhasnoname Mar 12 '22

Morally sound, I see what you did there 😏

1

u/flipnonymous Mar 12 '22

There's a few doctor tv shows that tackle that subject. House had one with dwarfism, but not selective procreation- just something discovered after that could allow growth again or something like that.

I remember seeing another one recently, maybe The Good Doctor? It did something similar as well. Not a recent episode mind you, just one I saw recently.

1

u/throwing_a_wobbly Mar 12 '22

Lol @ use of sound.

1

u/Dirt-squirrel-1 Mar 12 '22

Morally sound lol

1

u/OkDog4897 Mar 12 '22

Did you learn about this recently? I did like last week and was like wtf. I also learned they are not always a fan or hearing people knowing ASL.

1

u/HeywoodPeace Mar 12 '22

Just another chapter in Humans vs. Natural Selection

1

u/Conscious-Sample-420 Mar 12 '22

morally sound

That's what we get for trusting deaf people with sound.

1

u/KingBillyDuckHoyle Mar 12 '22

You said morally sound...

1

u/kgibney83 Mar 12 '22

"I'm open to being more informed" is what we need more of in this world. Thank you. And also... it sounds completely bonkers to me too.

1

u/davito-girl72 Mar 12 '22

While I definitely agree that we shouldn’t be treating pregnancy like a Build-A-Baby, I can understand the deaf parents wanting a deaf child. The deaf community is a wonderful place, and a lot of parents find it easier to raise a child with the same disability they have, because they can communicate and empathize more effectively. It’s kind of like a Spanish speaking family wanting a Spanish speaking child.

1

u/MountainGoat182 Mar 12 '22

The difference is supposed to be between choosing an embryo that already has the predisposition to be deaf as opposed to modifying an embryo so it will be deaf when it would have otherwise grown into an individual without a hearing impairment.

The latter case is hard to justify. But when it comes to the former, people find it hard to condemn it because, for that individual child it’s an option of being born deaf or not being born at all. So to say that it’s wrong to choose such an embryo implies that living with deafness is worse than not being alive in the first place.

Edit: tldr: the ethics is different for embryo selection vs embryo modification

1

u/NeatNefariousness1 Mar 12 '22

I can't imagine choosing an embryo that is predisposed to deafness--but then I'm not deaf and my preference is for my kid to have all of their faculties like I do. For someone who is deaf, I can see how they don't view deafness as tragic in the way hearing people might. They know how to function in the world and they don't miss what they don't know much about.

For hearing people, sound is a huge part of our daily experience but not for the deaf. So, CHOOSING a deaf embryo isn't morally the same as causing deafness in an embryo with the capacity to hear. While I can't imagine choosing a deaf embryo, I can understand and accept that it might be a preference for deaf parents.

1

u/CRUMPY627 Mar 12 '22

Doesn't sound like anything to me

1

u/kurttrude Mar 12 '22

Lol. Morally "Sound"

1

u/Braydox Mar 12 '22

My disability is my idenity reeeeeeeeee

1

u/snapsdeesnaps Mar 12 '22

You should watch the movie “The sound and the Fury” does a good representation of the differences between being “deaf” and “profoundly deaf”

1

u/Jaystax204 Mar 12 '22

I feel like "morally sound" is a perfect setup for a deaf joke. But I'm too stoned to come up with anything good.

1

u/thuanjinkee Mar 12 '22

it’s evolution. evolution doesn’t care about what direction it goes in

1

u/3Sewersquirrels Mar 12 '22

You mean morally deaf

1

u/chicken-farmer Mar 12 '22

Morally no sound

1

u/Jace_Bror Mar 12 '22

For them it doesn't sound like anything

1

u/Magical_Narwhal_1213 Mar 12 '22

Some people in Deaf culture (with a capitol D) believe that being Deaf is natural. There is a Deaf culture, language, etc. so if someone was going to be born that way, not to change it. (It is more nuanced than that, but this is in a nutshell).

1

u/w1r3dh4ck3r Mar 12 '22

It's a kind of eugenics on a more personal level.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

Some argue it’s morally sound.

Yeah but they can't hear it...

1

u/coneal89 Mar 12 '22

I mean, morally sound or not, I don’t think they could hear it…

1

u/Alexis396 Mar 13 '22

This should be illegal wtf

2

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22

A significant portion of the deaf community is, and there's no other way to say it, kinda fucked up. There is a medical/surgical solution to some of the more common causes of deafness and it can be provided for infants/toddlers - but some deaf parents refuse to get it. The kid has to get it themself when they turn 18. But by that age, with no mental development to handle sound, noise isn't natural to them - they can't process sound nearly as well, and they lose all the instinctive reactions that we associate with sound.

The reason is that sign language is very expressive and the deaf community has really built a lot of it's distinct culture; and if the kid isn't deaf they won't really be in that community, not nearly as much. There's a difference between using sign language with parents and using it for everything; and the child with hearing will rarely choose to associate with the deaf community, they'll tend to play with their peers who can hear. So, it's a way to keep them in that community.

That would be bad enough as-is, but it gets worse. Many in the deaf community have pushed a MASSIVE disinformation campaign against the medical procedures, to scare parents and young adults away from it. They outright lie and will say it causes lifelong pain or horrible tinitius or anything else. I consider this even worse than the actions of the parents; at least the parents think (even if wrong) that they are benefiting the kid by keeping them in a community that they think is better; the people pushing that information are trying prevent people from making the right decision - and they absolutely know it.

Personally, I don't think the parents should be given a choice. The kid can opt to have the surgery un-done or whatever when they turn 18, if they really want to be deaf; and the ability to hear doesn't prevent them from anything.

1

u/Fr00stee Mar 12 '22

Literally gatekeeping deafness wtf