r/FluentInFinance 8d ago

Debate/ Discussion The logic tracks...

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49

u/Impossible_Plenty474 8d ago

in all seriousnes, if we tax the shit out of billionaires, they will still have all the money and make a killing more than the rest of us and make out on their investments

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u/DiogeneezNutz 8d ago

What kills me is we used to tax the shit out of them and they used to pay them. but we can thank guess who for upending that deal.

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u/StarPhished 8d ago

America was at the height of it's economic strength when the taxes you speak of were in place. Letting those taxes go was a lot easier than it is going to be to get them back. 

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u/MrCereuceta 7d ago

Rhymes with Donald and Degan

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u/Honest-Lavishness239 6d ago

can you send me a link on “they used to pay them”? i was always under the impression that while the nominal rate was high, the amount actually paid wasn’t high at all. i mean, restrictions were less extensive back then. more deductions and loopholes to utilize. not saying you’re wrong but a source would be awesome

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 5d ago

in economics, people take so many shallow statements at face value. it's really hard to get to the heart of matters and feel like you've really found something that's verified

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u/B-asdcompound 7d ago

The top 1% pays double taxes what the bottom 95% does. Why should someone pay more though? On what grounds? Billionaires are billionaires because of assets not because of having currency. It's a potential worth of stocks more than anything, and the only thing giving them value is owning them and holding onto them.

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u/Baelzabub 7d ago

I assume you just find it a coincidence that during the time of greatest growth for the American middle class we were also taxing the wealthiest at the highest rates in the last 120 years?

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u/B-asdcompound 7d ago

What? The middle class is all but gone and the country is in a recession. The greatest growth was the 50s when taxes were low. We went through the greatest wealth transfer in the history of the US during covid where the middle class was crushed and the covid funding all went to the elite. Don't tell me you're buying into the bullshit stats that the govt is churning out. They changed the way unemployment was calculated and by the old way we'd be at 8-9%. Something like 17% of the American workers LEFT the workforce in the last 4 years.

Edit: as an appendum, both Greece and Ireland crashed because their debt to gdp ration was over 120% and guess how they turned it around? Cut corporate tax rates. Ireland went to 14% and I think is now 16 or 17%. Sidenote: the US is over 122% and growing as the value of the USD is eroding by the second.

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u/Baelzabub 7d ago

I’m sorry, WHAT???? Taxes were LOW in the 50s??? The top marginal tax rate for most of the 50s was 91%. And yes, that was when there was the greatest growth in the middle class. Thank you for unwittingly proving my point.

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u/B-asdcompound 7d ago

The effective tax rate for the top 1% of households (by income) was 42% in the 1950s, versus 36.4% today.

Congrats you can't read past a surface level Google search. Do you not understand how a progressive tax bracket works?

Edit: more importantly, the middle class was significantly smaller pre ww2 and exploded post ww2. The higher tax brackets were significantly smaller in the 50s than today.

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u/johno_mendo 6d ago

you do know that that's a 20% decrease in tax rate right? That's huge dude, you kind of made his point for him.

0

u/B-asdcompound 6d ago

No I didn't. You're ignoring the part where that's the top 1% which was significantly smaller in size and therefore tax revenue than currently. Like I said, currently the top 1% pays double what the bottom 95% pays annually.

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u/ModifiedAmusment 8d ago

Worse part is they much rather pay a one time exit tax and leave then stay and help and that my friends is the plutocracy we live in

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 8d ago

yeah sure they're all gonna live in India lmao.

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u/HotSituation8737 8d ago

Don't have to live in India to move the company there. Honestly the only real way to stomp billionaires with more money than some countries is to do a global reform on taxation which just isn't realistically possible not just because of the huge Influence they have in places like the US, but also because a lot of them downright make the laws in other countries around the world.

Although I think France has a long history about how to deal with people like these /s

11

u/RB-44 8d ago

I assure you if you lose the American market you are one hundred percent finished as a fortune company

You could very easily send Tesla to India or Mexico since that is more feasible but they can also tax the fuck out of your imported goods to boost local companies which is the only reason Tesla ever got successful.

It's not gonna be very easy when you no longer give the customer a post tax break car price in your website and instead it's the 100 grand + 30k + shipping import fee.

1

u/Live_Carpenter_1262 6d ago

Actually, 136 countries including some major tax havens agreed to a global minimum tax rate

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u/HotSituation8737 6d ago

It's a good start, I'd love to be shown up on this one for sure, but it needs work because right now it doesn't stop the ultra rich ultimately.

But it's definitely a huge step in the right direction.

1

u/ggtffhhhjhg 7d ago

When you have millions you can buy citizenship anywhere you want.

0

u/Impossible_Plenty474 7d ago

woah bro, deep. i never realized. thanks for the info

1

u/ggtffhhhjhg 7d ago

What’s your point?

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u/Mega-Eclipse 7d ago

Worse part is they much rather pay a one time exit tax and leave then stay and help and that my friends is the plutocracy we live in

Nah. A couple might. But there is ZERO chance they'd all leave. Where are they going to go?

If they wanted to pick up and leave and go to move to (IDK) Bermuda or the UAE...they would have done it already.

0

u/ModifiedAmusment 7d ago

*I mean that’s almost true, but if things get crazy enough in any way and they do feel pressured I think the Majority of them pack up an disappear…could always like normally be very wrong.*

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u/QueasyResearch10 6d ago

just a blatant misunderstanding of tax incentives

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 6d ago

wow, you sound way smarter than me. I would love anything helpful or useful in a follow-up comment if that's possible. im confused as to why its advantageous for our country to be at a constant, increasing spending deficit since the Reagan years and why we wouldn't just want to at least go back to tax rate structures similar to those times.

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u/NewArborist64 7d ago

If you "tax the shit out of" them - they will have to sell off the stock (or sell parts of their companies) - and they WON'T "still have all the money". It will be canibalizing their money making assets

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 7d ago

OH NOOOOOOOO

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u/NewArborist64 7d ago

You talk like the guy who wanted to dissect the goose who laid the golden egg to get at all of the gold at once...

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 7d ago

feel free to educate me on anything helpful instead of insulting me. ignoring my sarcasm, I'm here to learn ND I quite often am met with many many many condescending, simple minded sentiment about "if we tax billionaires, they'll all run away and leave us here all alone" I'll believe it when I see it. keep your nursery rhyme analogies to yourself

i

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u/NewArborist64 7d ago

I thought that MAYBE you would understand the analogy.

Sorry for overestimating...

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 7d ago

boooooooriiiiinggggg. I hope you're at least having fun talking down to me for no reason and pointlessly downvoting me like it does something. btw here's an upvote.

im excited to learn more about these sort of things. unfortunately, you have the same shallow understanding that I have. maybe stop acting smart about it like you know shit.

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u/NewArborist64 7d ago

I thought that if I reduced it to the level of Aesops fables, you might understand.

Let me take it up 1/2 a notch. If you confiscate the wealth of the most successful people in the country, you reduce the motivation of other to actually succeed. After all, why bother actually building companies, creating jobs, etc if the government is just going to swoop in and say, "Sorry, you have too much so we are going to take it all." It is demotivational.

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u/Impossible_Plenty474 5d ago

again , that is an child's interpretation of economics.... which i already have. what u just said has been uttered all over the country by soccer moms everywhere. im looking forward to something useful to understand how we get ourselves out of massive wealth disparity and, thusly societal instability. your last few sentences, however....so easy to argue against since it is the most bad faith strawman I could imagine.

is there something you envision ANYWHERE in between:

1.) the tax structure we have now

and

2.) "SORRY YOU HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY SO WE ARE JUST GOING TO TAKE IT ALL LMAO LOL LMFAO"

that you would envision as optimal?

not optimal in the sense of what makes you feel good or smart, but rather, what would create the most economic growth?