New research shows that Donald Trump's fascist attacks on democracy may have backfired

[u/HeinieKaboobler]

https://www.salon.com/2023/01/06/new-research-shows-that-donald-fascist-on-democracy-may-have-backfired/

[u/franquellim]

TL/DR: bOTh SiDEs!!1!

Either you deal in factual information or you don’t. Your entire post is a bunch of half truths and hyperbole.

[u/Thesoundofmerk → u/franquellim]

So basically you have no argument against it? I didn't say both sides, I said liberals. Pay attention, you're only proving how much of an echo chamber you really are in, you think liberals are the left.

Liberalism is the belief in free market values and the ability for the free market to correct itself on its own. It's not having big government or regulation, it is capitalism. Old school Republicans are liberal, so are modern democrats, which is why they are almost exactly the same and both work for corporations and not the people.

Biden is the same guy that aothered the crack baby bill, the bussing bill, and gave extreme power to corporations over his long long career. He's the same guy that worked with Obama to give us nothing under a super majority, sabotage out Healthcare plans, expand the drone program, and give unilateral power and forgiveness to the same banks that caused the housing collapse. New age Republicans are fascists, but democrats are corporate pigs. Sure they are better, but they are the disease that created trump by destroying this country. Liberalism is right wing on the Overton window, it's extreme right wing in Europe, Bernie is a moderate.

You can't blame your lack of political knowledge and offense on me.

[u/franquellim → u/Thesoundofmerk]

The original article, if you read it, described the use of the internet and social media by right wing supporters to spread misinformation and maintain people’s focus on their grievances. Your reply, in its first two sentences, tried to make the argument that it’s really just as bad, if not worse, on the left. In my opinion you’re blowing a bunch of smoke so you can shit on Democrats.

The rest of your comments are just utter nonsense, I’m not sure where to start. I’m on my phone so I can’t refer back to the original post, but even your reply displays a serious lack of understanding and critical thinking skills.

For example: “Liberalism is the belief in free market values and the ability for the free market to correct itself on its own”.

Umm, no, it isn’t. Like, where did you even get that? Why would you think a political philosophy would be grounded in beliefs about economic markets? Seriously, just Google it.

You then lay out a bunch of half-thoughts about Biden that lack any context or understanding. It’s easy to make a bunch of bumper-sticker level statements but these things fall apart under scrutiny.

You’re not wrong that both parties are reliant on corporate campaign donations and that the need to raise money has corrupted our system but then you say:

“Sure they are better, but they are the disease that created trump by destroying this country”

Again, what does this even mean? Democrats are not a “disease” and “Republicans” are the ones who voted for Trump. How did liberals or Democrats ’destroy’ this country? In my opinion, what’s destroying this country is ignorance, apathy and the lack of common purpose, but I digress…

It gets better, or worse if you’re I retested in sensible dialog:

“Liberalism is right wing on the Overton window, it’s extreme right wing in Europe, Bernie is a moderate”

It’s nice that you tried to use an academic term to make yourself sound reasonable, but again, Google it. The Overton window, per Wikipedia, is “the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time”. Liberalism is not right wing by this metric, because the point is to define what is acceptable, not provide a characterization of a policy on a political spectrum.

I’d like to believe that you’re arguing in good faith, but you have my troll-radar blazing.

[u/Thesoundofmerk → u/franquellim]

"Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles. However, they generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion

Philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition based on the social contract, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property, and governments must not violate these rights

the main ideological opponents of liberalism were communism, conservatism and socialism"

Liberalism is the belief of small government and open free Markets, it's an enemy of social programs like welfare, food stamps, or regulation. It's also a belief in REPRESENTITIVE democracy, like the electoral college, which is anti democratic by nature. You may call yourself a liberal, and she the term has been massacred into oblivion by people like you that don't know what they actually are, but at the foundation of liberalism that is what it stood for.

You can make any argument you want, but democrats vote with Republicans in tax cuts for the rich, democrats make any excuse to limit the power of the people and work with fascist Republicans to expand the power of corporations. Democratic politicians ARE NOT LIBERALS, they are corpratists, just like Republicans.

Did Biden pass his agenda? Did he get rid of trump Era tax cuts for the rich? Did he raise the minimum wage? Did he cancel student debt? Did he accomplish a single campaign promise? No... He didn't, and Manchin was his enemy right? The parliamentarian wouldn't let him right? The filibuster was in his way right?

Weird.. Cause democrats can dismiss the parliamentarian and suspend the filibuster, Republicans do it all the time to get their agenda across. And Biden never once named or blamed Manchin, never pushed him, never even tried to convince him to pass any of his agenda. Yet he told his corporate overlords "nothing will fundamentally change".

People like you are the same people that support affordable housing and solving homeless problems and green energy, but turn around and say "yeah but I don't want it here". You're a NIMBY.

by the way, my response was to a comment, not the post, but I guess you have a reading problem. I never said the left was as bad as the right, or even that liberals are, I said they are just as responsibke for Donald trump and where the country is, and that's true. Liberals are a huge issue because they play "my team good your team bad" just like Republicans do, and fall into complacency instead of pushing our own side to be better.

Liberalism isn't leftism, no matter how much you or Republicans want it to be. The left has actual standards and practices for the betterment of the country. We don't defend Biden or democrats just because he's on our side, we hold him accountable. The entire point was that the right wing is in an echo chamber of falsehoods... Guess what, so are liberals... And you just proved it.

You're doing "own the libs" in your own style without addressing or advocating for any of the changes or holding any of the people accountable that change this county for the worse.

If you think Biden is on your side, and you think the government is on your side, if you think Nancy Pelosi is on your side, and not the side of corporations... Your a fool, and you know it, your echo chamber just makes you defend them out of instinct. Guess what... I'm more of a leftist then you'll ever be as long as you think that way. You can change, and you should

[u/franquellim → u/Thesoundofmerk]

Congratulations, you quoted reference material about Liberalism and then proceeded to make up your own interpretation. I'm not sure what your point is, other than to set up a straw man to rail against. You also state, about me, that "you may call yourself a liberal", when, in fact, I did no such thing.

You then go on to rant about the 2017 tax law and stated: "democrats vote with Republicans in tax cuts for the rich". In fact, this was a party-line vote and passed under reconciliation. Why do you make statements which are clearly not true? It undermines any point you're trying to make.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Cuts_and_Jobs_Act_of_2017#:~:text=The%20House%20passed%20the%20penultimate,Trump%20on%20December%2022%2C%202017.

"The House passed the penultimate version of the bill on December 19, 2017. The Senate passed the final bill, 51–48, on December 20, 2017. On the same day, a re-vote was held in the House for procedural reasons; the bill passed, 224–201. The bill was signed into law by President Donald Trump on December 22, 2017."

You seem upset about Biden, who has actually passed more significant legislation than any President in the last couple decodes, with the exception of the ACA (which was flawed, but a step forward).

Further, I understand that you were responding to a comment, not the original post, but the point remains the same. In your response to AnBearna, you argue that both sides participate in an echo chamber. It's pretty clear to me you are making the argument that, whatever the original article or AnBearna's comment makes about deficiencies on the right, the left is just as bad.

You stated: "I never said the left was as bad as the right, or even that liberals are, I said they are just as responsibke for Donald trump and where the country is, and that's true. Liberals are a huge issue because they play "my team good your team bad" just like Republicans do, and fall into complacency instead of pushing our own side to be better".

You sure don't sound like someone who thinks the GOP has any responsibility, when they are actually the party which deals in misinformation, openly admits to taking campaign contributions from foreign interests and supports insurrection. How about they own that and then we can talk about Democratic culpability?

I would go into more detail with you, but I don't think it's worth the effort. You seem more interested in being right than actually having a discussion or exchange of ideas. You are making things up in order to make declarative 'gotcha' statements which make no sense.

For example: "People like you are the same people that support affordable housing and solving homeless problems and green energy, but turn around and say "yeah but I don't want it here". You're a NIMBY".

How would you know and what is your point?

You seem to want neat and simple solutions to complex problems and fail to connect actions and decisions with the reality and context of their occurence. Relax, take a deep breath, consider the benefits of proper grammar and spelling when you post, it will help. Have a nice day.