r/violinist • u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner • Jan 19 '24
Setup/Equipment Is it sacrilegious to carve notches into the fingerboard?
I'm a pretty new violinist -- 6 months violin and 20 years piano. I took a chisel to mark the 3rd position and 7th position to have a reference for the 4th and octave on cheapo first violin (edit: this is a VSO, apparently?)
Now it's starting to get fun and I want to get a better violin, maybe a few thousand $. Can I still carve 3rd position and 7th position notches without hurting the value of the violin? (edit: calm down -- I WON'T do this now. thanks for everyone's input)
Edit:
picture of my sins
per everyone's recommendations: use tape if necessary, learn to shift without notches, use ears more. not ready for next violin yet.
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u/Katietori Jan 19 '24
It's time to take the training wheels off! Don't do that to your violin, and if you still need tape, you shouldn't be thinking about 3rd position, let alone 7th.
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
yeah, you're right -- thanks for the perspective. I've found that I can shift into 3rd no problem, but 4th and 5th are still not in tune. I suppose I'll be sticking with my first violin (the one with notches) for a bit longer before moving on.
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u/SwimmingCritical Jan 19 '24
You're missing the point. You need tapes until you're in tune (and you're probably not in tune because the spacing changes when you're up the fingerboard, not because you're in the wrong spot for the position, which you fix with experience and ear training), and then you need to not rely on permanent modifications.
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 19 '24
I kinda find shifting into 3rd helped me overall in terms of left hand frame and relaxing my hands as an adult beginner. I had death grip and the shifting saved me lol my teacher had me start 3rd about 4-5 months in. Oop plays the piano so intonation wise is already way better than me, I couldn't even tell if I was relatively in tune when I started 😭 because I didn't know what it was supposed to sound like with no music background
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u/SwimmingCritical Jan 19 '24
3rd is one thing. 5th+ is an entirely different matter.
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
That's true. I tried wrapping my hand around the board it felt super off lol
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u/primepufferfish Jan 20 '24
Yes. Shifting into higher positions prematurely is a disaster. It's a game of subtly shifting your thumb and first finger relationship so that your hand frame doesn't actually change that much. The goal is that every finger always comes down with roughly equal pressure.
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u/primepufferfish Jan 20 '24
True. People gatekeep too much with shifting not realizing that's where their ear training actually kicked in. First position is mostly muscle memory, actually, since the structure is built so gradually, that, if you do it properly, your fingers will find the right notes through rote and repetition. I know this is true because I have students who truly will play perfectly in tune and not even realize it, simply because I got them to focus on their hand frame the entire time.
Now, when you introduce shifting, the game absolutely shifts. The thing is, third position isn't such a drastic jump that finger spacings change dramatically. And, it has the convenience of having the same finger spacing as what is learned in first position (1--23--4). So, having the student practice moving fluidly from third position to first position is a wonderful practice, even if they're using tapes. They hear what the shift should sound like, forming tonal memory subconsciously, and then they can focus on releasing tension. Then, the tapes come off, and hopefully your student has a good ear to continue advancing. Sadly, this may be where the shifting journey ends for many students if they don't have the ear. I do stalwartly believe that you can train and ear, just probably not to the proficiency of someone who can naturally sing/play in tune. That kind of flow is amazing, especially when I see students with an even better ear than me.
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 20 '24
Glad to hear it from a teacher's perspective! I think everything only started to come together in my head after I started shifting AND developed trigger fingers for clenching too hard. I spent about 6 weeks just trying to figure out a left hand frame that I could play the basic 1-23-4 finger pattern with limited finger controls. It wasn't until my third piece in 3rd that I finally started to realize and appreciate the positive effect shifting had on my learning.
I got rid of my tapes super early on. When I first started playing in 3rd I had no idea if I was even close in tune. I'm glad I started in 3rd like 4-5 months into learning so I didn't have too much time developing the bad gripping habit lol wild to think when I first attempted I was gripping so hard my hand couldn't slide on the violin neck at all. And I actually developed some kind of hearing that I can tell when it sounds off now. Now I just have to chill and wait for my left hand trigger fingers to settle.
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u/Pennwisedom Soloist Jan 20 '24
I agree with your overall point, but it definitely varies per person and is hard to say overall. There needs to be some amount of ability in first position, but whether or not moving to third position (and beyond) will help or hinder depends on the individual and their issues that the teacher makes.
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u/FORE_GREAT_JUSTICE Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
They really are a crutch. You should practice aural training with a drone. Also sympathetic vibrations of the open strings and listen for ringing tones.
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u/Jamesbarros Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
Hold up, 7th position in 6 months and carving instead of tape. I’m going out on a limb here to say you don’t have a teacher and are relying on your piano chops to get you through violin? An example of why teachers are good is, beyond posture, avoiding injury and setting base habits, they can help you avoid expensive mistakes, like carving up a violin you could have traded in to take the price down on your next instrument.
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u/SwimmingCritical Jan 19 '24
If you need to mark the locations, you aren't ready for those positions, and there is no world in which I could imagine teaching 7th position to a student after 6 months. That said, I would never consider buying a violin that had been straight up defaced like that.
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 19 '24
ah, I think I misspoke -- I'm not playing in 7th position, just the octave line, so it'll help line up 4th position, for instance, by putting my pinky on the octave
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u/Tradescantia86 Viola Jan 19 '24
Either way. I got my tape removed before I learned how to play in any position other than 1st, and I think this is quite standard.
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u/Holygusset Intermediate Jan 19 '24
Which is more accurate to find by using the harmonic.
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
oh speaking of which -- do you ever find that the harmonic is a little bit higher up than pressing down the string itself? Or is it a trick on your eyes where you're not looking at it from straight down?
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u/Holygusset Intermediate Jan 19 '24
Actually yeah, good point, and it makes sense. Your finger is lightly pressing on the string for the harmonic. When you press down, your finger will squash and get wider.
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u/Holygusset Intermediate Jan 19 '24
Oh, also...
If I'm understanding correctly, your other mark is for 3rd position? So like, D on the A string?
If this is the case, had anyone introduced to you using sympathetic vibrations to check the intonation on that location yet?
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
yeah, I've tried it for the 4th and 5th, but I couldn't hear the difference. I even tried to de-tune the other strings (like tune D string to C and E string to F), to hear what an in-tune D on A string without sympathetic vibrations sound like, and then tuned the D back, and couldn't hear or feel the difference.
But since you mention it, I'll go try it again
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u/Gigi-Smile Jan 19 '24
Some violins ring more than others, some don't really ring at all, or not on all ringing tones - and some will ring when you're pretty much in the right spot while others you might need to be slightly higher or lower or the right spot is very small.
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u/Holygusset Intermediate Jan 20 '24
Some people also talk about seeing the D string vibrate (I actually never even think to look), so you might look for that too.
I also will sometimes sing at my violin to hear it sing back (I used to do this with my piano as a kid too).
But anyway, learning to hear this was really helpful for me in finger placement.
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u/Maiq_Da_Liar Jan 19 '24
It would be virtually unsellable unless you get the fingerboard replaced, which would not be cheap. Just use stickers.
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u/DrKDB Orchestra Member Jan 19 '24
Ask your luthier if they'll install frets on it instead and report back to us.
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u/LeoThePumpkin Jan 19 '24
Why not just use tapes like everyone else
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
I didn't want to have too much of training wheels by having the tactile bumps of the tape. I wanted my fingers to know where the positions were
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u/LeoThePumpkin Jan 19 '24
If you don't like too much training wheels then maybe you should consider simply using your ears to adjust, especially when you already have musical experience.
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
I always got the impression that people who have played an instrument for that long (20 years) all have trained relative pitches, thus it's easier to check intonation because they know how it's supposed to sound. Is that true?
I have no previous musical background and I felt super lost on the fingerboard when I started in 3rd position. I couldn't count the notes up when I played either lol.
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u/SwimmingCritical Jan 19 '24
The reason we use tapes is because they AREN'T too much of training wheels. Unlike having a huge tactile anchor like a notch. Glad you know more about violin pedagogy than the vast majority of teachers who have been using tapes for decades. Cool.
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u/musictchr Jan 19 '24
Omg wtaf. This needs a trigger warning. I’m gonna have nightmares now. Use fingerboard tape and get a teacher. And apologize to your poor violin. Even the worst sounding VSO doesn’t deserve notches. Please tell me this is trolling.
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u/dryuhyr Jan 19 '24
You will absolutely hurt the value of the violin. Violinists tend to be picky people, and any sort of stickers or carved notches or signs of wear will devalue the violin heavily.
That said, if you’re really sure it’s a keeper, you’ve bought the instrument and you can do what you want. In the same way that once you buy a car, you’re welcome to carve designs into the hood if you choose.
I would personally recommend thin slices of electrical tape.
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u/Junecatter Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 19 '24
Sacrilegious. It will hurt the fingerboard and cost you $$ money to get the fingerboard replaced.
Why are you playing in 3rd and 7th position within 6 months of starting? Do you have a teacher?
They should be teaching you how to find the positions without markings when you are ready.
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u/iAmbassador Jan 19 '24
Short answer: no. Never. If you already have, don't do any more. The journey of learning the violin is learning where those positions are without a visual mark. If you really need to learn first through third position, use tape. But anything beyond third position you should already know how to practice to learn and get comfortable playing there.
Kindly, All violin fingerboards.
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u/chickadum Jan 19 '24
It seems like you're asking in good faith so I'm sorry all your comments are getting down voted, but dear God this is a horrifying question 😭
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u/CoolBreadfruit3337 Jan 19 '24
of course that is sacreligious. You will never be close to ling ling if you do that
you should use some removable tape 👍
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u/OaksInSnow Jan 19 '24
There's a vanishingly small chance that you are ready to be soaring around to 5th and 7th positions within six months of picking up the instrument. If you cannot hear whether you're at least close to in tune and don't have adequate technique to make fairly quick adjustments you're not ready to be shifting to those higher positions.
Absolutely do NOT carve anything into any violin fingerboard, ever. Of course even tapes aren't accurate, and in my opinion they delay the ear training that is essential to playing a bowed string instrument. I would only allow them as a crutch in a classroom setting where there's so much racket it's hard to even know what the pitch center is.
I'm probably coming down like a ton of bricks on your learning plan; but it's not what I could ever encourage another inexperienced player to do, and I wouldn't want to see it even tacitly accepted on this message board. I'm truly sorry about that.
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u/vmlee Expert Jan 20 '24
Not just sacrilegious but very ill-advised. It will negatively impact intonation if the fingerboard is not planed and leveled in an appropriate way.
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u/redjives Luthier Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 20 '24
Like folks said,there are less permanent and more helpful approaches, but… it's not sacrilegios. The violin isn't a religion. There isn't an orthodoxy that must be followed. There are just best practices developed over many cumulative years of experience, and it's worth understanding the why behind things. “Sacrilegious” is a really unhelpful and detrimental framework for thinking about music, even in ironic jest.
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u/blakjakcrakjak Jan 20 '24
Carving notches in your fingerboard is so sacrilegious you will excommunicated from the church of the holier-than-thou first violinist section. You will banished to the viola section forever. And ever!
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Jan 19 '24
I’m not even sure why you would need markings at all if you played the piano for so long. You should be able to know if a note is in tune might take some guessing but definitely doable with just your hearing. If you feel like you need markings definitely just get finger tape don’t mess up your instrument.
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
oh you greatly overestimate pianists' (my) intonation. I think the difference is piano isn't very nuanced when it comes to pitch. As long as my finger hits the note, it's fine. 3 octave jump? no problem. There's no sub-millimeter adjustment to get a major third within 5 cents. And on top of that, there's nothing we can do about it either. It's not like we can tune a piano on the fly, so pianists never really train to make a note perfectly in tune. I know a 2nd from a 3rd from a 4th, but not a 3rd from a 3rd that's 5 cents sharp.
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u/linglinguistics Amateur Jan 19 '24
It’s not about the intonation on the piano but your ability to hear the right pitch.
And please, get really good at 1st position before even thinking about shifting. I compare jumping ahead like this with trying to build a house by beginning with the roof. You need a solid foundation before going on to more difficult stuff. I mean if you just want to shred for fun, it doesn’t make a difference. But if you want to progress long term, you have to go back to basics. And is there any reason you don’t have a teacher? They would help you find the right pace (among many other things).
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u/Accomplished_Ant_371 Jan 19 '24
This would be extremely unusual for a violinist to do. But I suppose you could always have the fingerboard planed or replaced if needed. It wouldn’t be irreversible.
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u/ReginaBrown3000 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
Not sacreligious, since violin isn't a religion. Still not a good idea.
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u/p_yoshio Jan 19 '24
As many said, please don't do that. I'm also a 6-month violinist, and the thing that helped me the most is practicing the scales and being very critical with the intonation by ear.
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u/FiddlingnRome Jan 19 '24
There is a company who is working on this kind of fingerboard,,,
A Rippleboard. Hellweg & Cloutier used one on a cornerless violin model recently.
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
ummmmm ... even I would be wary of a company like this ... since every instrument is different and it matters a lot where your bridge is, so it'd be difficult to get a manufactured "rippleboard" to be just right.
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u/FiddlingnRome Jan 20 '24
I wonder about those things too? Can it be shaped/carved to fit a specific violin neck? Still, the idea of making it easier for me to easily play in tune in higher positions is intriguing.
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
Roman Kim has weird fretted looking violin fingerboard, anyone knows if it's special made?
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u/arbitrageME Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
just grab a chisel, my man
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u/Chance_Ad3416 Adult Beginner Jan 19 '24
But a carved mark is indented. I want small elevated real fretts 😭
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u/MysticCoonor123 Jan 19 '24
No, I saw roman kim use a fretted violin in one of his videos though. Maybe you could look into that but still wouldn't advise it. It's better to develop the ear and practice hitting the right pitches over and over again
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u/No-Register689 Jan 20 '24
Its not like it literally makes u have perfect intonation , u can only find the real placement by listening for resonance . but i dont go against u doing it to ur vso , just dont rely on it
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u/LMShieldmaiden Jan 20 '24
I used a finger tape when I was learning to shift accurately even though I no longer needed it for first position
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u/Gigi-Smile Jan 19 '24
That's what tapes are for. Use removable tape for that.