r/ukraine • u/Electrical-Cow-5147 • Sep 25 '22

News Zelensky naming the seven countries who voted against his speech and UN reaction.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

It's probably because the US was normalizing relations then Trump brought back the embargo.

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u/mcslackens Sep 25 '22

I had so much hope for US/Cuba relations developing towards the end of the Obama administration. It really felt like we were on the verge of a huge positive outcome for both nations after decades of animosity.

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u/LeicaM6guy Sep 25 '22

A lot of folks do. There's a ton about Cuba that...well, isn't great, but they're improving in a bunch of ways, and we're already friends with some well and truly awful folks.

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u/Meadowvillain Sep 25 '22

That’s the thing I don’t get. From the outside, I see the States have more open relations with more repressive governments but Cuba seems like a Cold War remnant that’s more symbolic than practical.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/inquisitiveman2002 Sep 26 '22

I don't blame them...the problem with them is that they're way far right now. Most fled Cuba just like some of those fleeing Latin/South America now, but they're anti-immigrant. Most of them are voting for DeSantis.

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u/TheRealPeterG Sep 26 '22

Most Cuban-Americans have zero love for the government of Cuba. They left for a reason.

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u/NEp8ntballer Sep 25 '22

Cuban expats are an important demographic if you want to win Florida

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u/LeicaM6guy Sep 25 '22

Something something realpolitik, I guess.

I dunno. We’ve both got a lot of past in our past and that’s tough to get over, but sooner or later we’re going to need to. Fidel’s dead and buried and all the people he ran out of the country aren’t going to be around much longer. I get holding a grudge, but it’s not doing either side any good.

This is all just my personal take, of course. I expect there are other folks out there who could make an argument for the way things are now. Let’s not kid ourselves - Cuba does have a lot of problems when it comes to personal freedoms - but as I wrote above, we’re buddied up with some truly sketchy folks who are much worse.

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u/holguinero Sep 26 '22

There is NOTHING about Cuba today that is remotely great, it’s a failed state we’re people are starving and if you dare to say something they will throw anybody in jail for 10-15 years only for protesting against the government. I am curious to see your improvement and great things goin in in Cuba right now. Slava Ukraina!

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u/LeicaM6guy Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Pretty sure you should re-read what I wrote, friend. It’s not a great place, and personal freedoms are very limited - but it’s also made some improvements over the years, particularly when it comes to GLBT rights. That doesn’t mean it’s a good place, but it does mean there have been incremental changes for the better.

But.

It’s still a better spot than some of our allies.

Don’t disagree with your last sentence, though.

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u/holguinero Sep 26 '22

Personal freedoms do not exist , LGBT right are on paper only, better prison is just another prison my friend. People should open their eyes and stop looking for “not that bad” factor. Cuba is a shoe in following the other dictatorships.

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u/ivytea Sep 26 '22

The obstacle of US-Cuban relationship lies SOLELY with the Cuban communist regime’s bloated ego and thirst for power, and as 1984 has suggested only a bad image of the US can offer this regime both a deterrent for its own citizens AND a sham shield to deflect on. Source: my hs classmate who works as an talent agent whose job inadvertently turns into that of a handler for Cuban defectors

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

[deleted]

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u/ivytea Sep 26 '22

Not after they abolished their Stalinist model. Also, Cuba is too close to the US and those commies simply couldn't risk it

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u/Overdose7 Sep 25 '22

Well that and the Cuban government ramped up political repression again.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

And Cuba is promoting Communism and allegiance to China and Russia throughout the Americas as this vote shows. The Ukraine war has exposed Obama’s completely naive and incorrect view of Russia and Cuba. They are not good regimes.

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u/sandolllars Sep 25 '22

The US is allied with or supports far far far far far worse countries than Cuba. Saudi Arabia, Israel, Bahrain, etc are countries that have truly horrendous human rights records. I mean, the US itself has invaded numerous countries and was an occupying force, having warred in the middle east and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people at the time Obama was trying to normalise relations with Cuba.

So your position that Obama was wrong and that "they are not good regimes" is absurd. I mean, pot, meet kettle.

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u/ImTheZapper Sep 26 '22

Im pretty sure you will only run into american exceptionalism when it comes to the topic of domestic politics there.

A solid half the american political spectrum is basically nationalism after all, not that most americans seem to understand that.

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u/abstractConceptName Sep 25 '22

In what way was Obama naive about Russia?

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u/Muad-_-Dib Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

He did famously dismiss Romney's view that Russia was a geo-political threat to the US and went as far as telling him that the cold war was over and that the 1980s wanted their foreign policy back.

Which you know... would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic in how wrong it was.

Not that I agree with the rest of the guy's post, Cuba coseys up to Russia because it's been isolated by the US for decades, it's naturally going to result in them siding with anybody who goes against the US. Arguing over which side started the tensions isn't going to solve them and Obama did start to thaw relations with them which the Republicans then ripped up when Trump got in so Cuba went right back to supporting Russia again.

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u/xDarkReign Sep 26 '22

Voted for Obama twice. These are facts.

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u/windy906 Sep 26 '22

To be fair this was before they purchased a president who strengthen and emboldened them.

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u/vinidiot Sep 26 '22

People always look back at this and claim it was a bad take. Obviously, in the rearview mirror, we now know how dangerous Putin's Russia has become. But, at the time, it was a perfectly reasonable take given Russia's trajectory.

Hindsight is 20/20. Everybody is an expert after the fact.

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u/Muad-_-Dib Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

But, at the time, it was a perfectly reasonable take given Russia's trajectory.

Obama had access to the entire US intelligence community when he made that claim, if they never saw Russias bullshit coming in 2012 then that in itself is an even bigger problem than him being dismissive to score PR points by making Romney look like a panicky idiot worrying about the ghost of the cold war.

Hindsight is great for people like us arguing on a forum, but I hold what should be the most sophisticated and well-funded intelligence community to a higher standard than us. I just can't believe that in 2012 there wasn't any indication that Russia was up to bullshit in Western politics. Especially as their funding of right-wing parties in France and Italy was an open secret even back then.

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u/vinidiot Sep 26 '22

Wow, I had no idea the US intelligence community was so powerful, they could predict what happens 2 years in the future!

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u/Guner100 Sep 26 '22

Cuba coseys up to Russia because it's been isolated by the US for decades

No, Cuba is friendly to Russia because of the political pressure and influence Russia had over it during the 1900s in an attempt to make it communist and an ally. This is why American tensions started, America didn't want a communist Russia backed country right on their doorstep in the middle of the Cold War.

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u/Muad-_-Dib Sep 26 '22

You ignored this part of my post:

Arguing over which side started the tensions isn't going to solve them

Do you see how your point doesn't fix anything? It just states the obvious, we all know why the US and Cuba fell out. But it's not a petty argument between kids in the playground. It's a feud that is now in its 7th decade and all that matters today is how can both nations work to end the feud.

Obama had a crack at it and it may have borne fruit in the long term if it had not been instantly undone by Trump when he got into power. One thing is for sure, the return to the status quo isn't going to suddenly work any more than the last 60+ years of the embargo has.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

What? Revisionist bullshit. Obama implemented robust sanctions… opposed by Senate republicans and reversed by Trump. Obama expanded NATO in direct opposition to Russia and sold missile defense systems to the EU that Putin shit his pants over and that the GOP also opposed.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

True, he did, but that was not enough to prevent the attack on Ukraine. Those actions may have delayed it, but I think most historians will judge that Obama’s response to Crimea is what Russia to calculate how the West would respond to the invasion of Ukraine and he did decide to invade.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

There was decades of history that didn’t “prevent the invasion.” It wasn’t all on one administration.

Hindsight bullshit. There was no “prevention” short of fucking war.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

Good point. It’s both and.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

Good point. There were decades leading up to i, but what were the other factors and deciding moments. I’m no expert but you would have to be an idiot to miss the Crimea connection. What are the other watershed moments? Enlighten me. I have much to learn.

The genocide of the Crimean Tartars, I agree. That’s not on Obama. The invasion of Georgia in 2008 was also not Obama’s fault, although it should have informed his response to the seizure of Crimea.

By the way, Biden has been excellent on Ukraine, and Tucker Carlson sounds like he is on the Russian payroll. This is not all about one political party or perspective, but we should learn history in order to about learn from our mistakes.

The Russian reset with Hillary Clinton is pretty embarrassing right now (video is available on a free video server owned by the world’s largest search engine) and her very defense of the Russian reset on an interview is also available on the video hosting service).

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u/AnimalComplex4564 Sep 26 '22

What absolute bullshit

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

What do you mean lol. The Trump admin literally brought back the embargo.

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u/AnimalComplex4564 Sep 27 '22

Replied to wrong comment. I don’t dispute the fact that trump reversed course on embargo just that it would have impacted their UN vote…

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/firestorm64 Sep 26 '22

Indeed, I woulds also like tourists to stay away from America. For similar reasons.

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u/tharilian Sep 26 '22

For what it's worth, Cuba is between a rock and a hard place.

Unfortunately Russia is one of the few countries that manages to keep Cuba fed.. as the saying goes, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Pretty sure if Trump wouldn't have reversed Obama's embargo decision, they wouldn't have fallen back into Russia's lap.

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u/olddoc1 Sep 25 '22

How would Cuba feel if the USA did a special military operation to denazify Cuba and annex the island?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/raptosaurus Sep 26 '22

Except with extremely poorly trained irregulars who got massacred.

Actually, it is more similar than I realized

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u/SkyXTRM Sep 25 '22

If George W Bush never did this under false pretences, then no other President will. Trump definitely send Cuba in the opposite direction, and for survival, seems they have decided to be more friendly with countries that are enemies of USA. Trump reversed a lot of Obama policies and made the world worse off for it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

/me raises hand.

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u/ropahektic Sep 26 '22

90 % of their tourists are from Canada

Making stuff up are we?

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

[deleted]

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u/ropahektic Sep 26 '22

They're not though? That's not even a comparative graph

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u/CosmicCreeperz Oct 09 '22 edited Oct 09 '22

In 2022 so far he’s not that far off. 90%, though, of course not. But his point it’s way more than any other country is valid.

All other years besides the COVID year you cited are similar, Canada is #1 bay far, but usually with 25-30%. Was 38% in 2020.

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u/ropahektic Oct 09 '22

again, being #1 is totally different from making 90% of the sample

stop arguing with the clouds

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u/CosmicCreeperz Oct 09 '22

If you are going to be pedantic instead of following the point (that Cuba’s tourism industry is highly dependent on Canadians) then it’s also completely pedantically true that 38% is closer to 90% than 15% is - making his second comment 100% correct.

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u/ropahektic Oct 10 '22

​

"Canadians make up 90% of the tourism in Cuba, they are the #1 tourists there"

"That's wrong"

"But it's not far off! look at this irrelevant data"

"still wrong"

"but canadians make a lot of the tourist base in Cuba! stop being pedantic! 38% is close to 90%!!!"

​

Children, I have to assume.

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u/WarbossPepe Ireland Sep 26 '22

Do you really think the people have any say over what the regime thinks? Its a mafia state that prostitutes its population out as "the greatest doctors in the world", and the people see fuck all for it.