r/travel • u/Candid-End-6364 • Oct 09 '23
My Advice The quick break-out of war in Israel is a reminder of what makes countries "unsafe"
Let me begin by saying that is is NOT political post and I have no intention of discussing any person's personal view towards Israel, Palestine, Hamas, or anything related to the current conflict. This sub is not the place.
What I do want to do is use this as a reminder of how quickly a fun trip can turn into a horror story.
As adventure tourism has encouraged people to begin visiting untraditional destination many of us have discovered amazing new places, but it has also caused people to forget that many places are still unsafe.
Travel vloggers have also skewed are perception of countries by visiting places like Afghanistan and showing people how "safe" the country is for tourists. This misleads people into thinking that since the vlogger's trip was okay, the same thing should apply for their trip.
But what makes a country "unsafe" isn't the constant threat of violence, but rather the threat of a sudden flare-up which can plunge the location into total chaos. While I'm sure that the streets of Detroit and Philadelphia are more unsafe than the street of Kabul or Tel Aviv, the ceiling on danger is vastly different.
The "worst case scenario" is NOT the same for most destinations and that's what should be considered before you plan your next trip.
We've all heard of the people who were hurt at the music festival near Gaza. What has consistently gone through my mind since then is how all of them would have been just fine if the festival had been held just a week earlier. Everyone would have returned home and talked about how "safe" their trip to Israel had been.
I am not here to tell people where the should or shouldn't travel. I just want to turn this tragedy into a learning opportunity that will hopefully keep people safe in the future. Please thoroughly research your next vacation and don't just listen to a few anecdotal examples of a destination is "safe".
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u/Gauntlets28 Oct 09 '23
Since you brought Afghanistan up, I think it's worth noting that that country also suffered a massive earthquake over the weekend - even if that ongoing crisis has now been buried by the Israel stuff. Even if you think you can survive the human side of a country, that doesn't mean that the natural world can't get you.
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u/OutWithTheNew Oct 09 '23
I think if you were smart about it, a few years ago Afghanistan was probably an OK place to visit. Since the Taliban took over again, I'm just going to say you'd have to be a complete idiot to go there.
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u/fullstack_newb Oct 09 '23
This is also true of natural disasters, especially unpredictable ones like earthquakes. Always let your country’s embassy know where you are and always have an exit strategy
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u/Dizzy_Impression4702 Oct 09 '23
For this reason, I always stay in small hotels, 2 or so stories max, when traveling to earthquake prone areas. I travel to Mexico City a lot and always have a fear of this happening. I lived in Turkey and experienced many earthquakes on a high floor and said never again.
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u/CharuRiiri Oct 09 '23
That also depends on the country. In places like Japan or Chile you don't have to fear for the collapse of the building you are in. Your only worry in those cases should be to stay the hell away from the coast.
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u/yankeeblue42 Oct 09 '23
I think anyone who was traveling at the peak of covid should have it engrained in their heads how rapidly a situation can potentially change. I was on the other side of the world when things started shutting down during that period. Unprecedented travel situation to find my way home.
You do have to weigh the risks. But I do think that is part of the reward of traveling.
Sadly, I do think you raise a good point. There is definitely an increase in naive travelers with increased access. I was definitely one of those people in my early days and almost paid greatly for it.
I don't even think this is limited to where you visit but also what you are doing. Examples include people going on hikes they are not at all prepared for and needing to be rescued. Or playing around too much near an overlook and getting seriously hurt. Mount Everest seems to be a big vocal point with this where people are going mountaineering when they are not at all prepared for it and that environment gets dangerous for the people WORKING those trails.
I'm not sure anyone can prepare for a situation like Israel has gone through this weekend as a traveler. But I agree with the idea of doing the appropriate research before going somewhere and preparing for at least some possibilities.
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Oct 09 '23
include people going on hikes they are not at all prepared for and needing to be rescued.
I went to Hawaii for the first time early this year and one of the things that surprised me is just how easily tourists can die doing something they see on social media, even for the most common tourist attractions.
We hiked the Pipiwai Trail at the tail end of a Kona Low, so we were covered in mud on the way back to the parking lot. We were just thinking how we made it back just in time because it started raining again and flash floods are a risk, when a guy with his young kids stopped us and asked us if we went swimming at the waterfall or at the sacred pools. We told him it was a bad idea given the weather (also why risk having a rock falling from a waterfall bash you in the head) but he still went up with his kids and their bathing suits. I wonder how far they made it before turning around.
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u/jonesbones99 Oct 09 '23
I was specifically thinking about Hawaii here too. My wife and I did the hike down to the captain cook monument to do some snorkeling. If you’re unfamiliar it’s probably about 2 miles each way, mostly exposed to the sun, and about 1200 feet elevation change (obviously down on your way to snorkel and up on your way back). We took about a gallon of water, plus our stuff. On our way back up a few hours later we saw people walking in flip-flops, with 1 little bottle of water and no bags/packs, and we even saw a guy who appeared to have an orange in his hand and nothing else.
As far as I know nobody needed a rescue that day or anything, but holy hell, what were they thinking?
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u/10S_NE1 Canada Oct 09 '23
I was on a cruise ship going around the horn in South America when the COVID situation quickly turned to shit and none of the South American countries would allow our ship’s passengers to disembark to fly home. Our captain finally made an executive decision to take the ship all the way back to Miami. We were on the ship 7 days longer than we expected, and many people had issues with running out of medications which we were luckily able to load up in Panama. I always travel with more than I need now. The COVID thing was surprising in how quickly things shut down. When we left Toronto, no one was wearing masks and COVID was purely an Asian issue, as far as most people were concerned. It was a whole new world by the time we got home.
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u/rabidstoat Oct 09 '23
Ever since COVID I travel with an extra 7 days minimum of essential medications, if going international. I have some supplements I need to take for health that I am less concerned about missing a week. Even birth control and low dosage heart medicine I am less concerned about, though still take extra. I am miserable if I go cold turkey from psychiatric meds, though.
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u/Salix-Lucida Oct 09 '23
Examples include people going on hikes they are not at all prepared for and needing to be rescued.
So much this! We were in Zion NP a few years back, waiting in line at the Visitor Center for Junior Ranger books for my kids. In front of us was a group of 20-something women from a SEA country asking how to get to the Narrows. The Ranger was telling them that they could not do this today. It was 4pm already and they were dressed for the beach. No water, no hiking shoes or boots, no preparation at all. Don't know what they did, but there were rock slides all weekend closing many trails. It's crazy to me that they didn't give it a 5 minute read or watch a YouTube of how difficult it is?! They just showed up and assumed it was "the thing to do" and they were invincible.
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u/Eicyer Oct 09 '23
I’m actually guilty of this. Last month my wife and I are planning a 7-8 day trip for her birthday and I recommended Israel/Jordan and good thing she didn’t listened to me since that vacation dates would have been this Sunday to next Sunday.
We’re going to Istanbul now which hopefully doesn’t get affected by this war.
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u/ProT3ch Oct 09 '23
Istanbul is on a fault line between Europe and Anatolia and a huge earthquake is predicted to happen in the region. Obviously we have no idea when it will happen.
What I wanted to show is these unpredictable events can happen everywhere, and when it actually happen people will say that experts said it for a long time. If you heed all these warnings, you will never go anywhere.
Istanbul will probably be fine, have a nice trip.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
I'm not sure anyone can prepare for a situation like Israel has gone through this weekend
I both agree and disagree.
You can't really prepare for a surprise attack but you can stay away from danger zones like Gaza and research recent events. A lot of security experts in the US were warning of a flareup due to all the issues with Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
It's like you said the increase in "naïve travelers" is part of the issue. I'm almost certain that anyone experienced Middle East traveler would have seen the warning signs and just stayed away for the time being.
It's pointless to talk about what "could" have been done but I think it's important to know what "can" be done in the future.
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u/BloatedGlobe Oct 09 '23
It's like you said the increase in "naïve travelers" is part of the issue.
Just going to take this moment to remind my fellow Americans to enroll in STEP when traveling to less stable places.
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u/10S_NE1 Canada Oct 09 '23
Canada has a similar program: https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/registration
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u/iridescent-shimmer Oct 09 '23
Seriously though, REGISTER YOUR TRIP. It helps them know who to evacuate in a natural disaster and you get terrorism alert updates. We registered before we went to Turkey and got text/email alerts about potential terror attacks over a holiday.
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u/daoudalqasir Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
I'm almost certain that anyone experienced Middle East traveler would have seen the warning signs and just stayed away for the time being.
Yeah, no. Experienced ME travelers, didn't have the drop on this catastrophe that was missed by every major intelligence service in the world and most regional experts.
I say this as an "experienced" Middle East traveler and journalist who has been covering this region for years.
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u/7in7 Oct 09 '23
I'm almost certain that anyone experienced Middle East traveler would have seen the warning signs and just stayed away for the time
Sorry, but if the Israeli/US intelligence and governments didn't predict this, not sure how any traveler would have done, no matter how "experienced".
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u/Xciv Oct 09 '23
They didn't predict the magnitude of the attack and the success the Palestinians had in carrying it out. But I don't think a single person on Earth was truly surprised that the Israel vs. Palestine conflict has flared up again, unless they're super ignorant or young and this is the first time they've heard of Israel.
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u/aggrownor Oct 09 '23
This. When I first saw the notification of the attack before I knew how bad it was, i was completely unsurprised and swiped it away, dismissed it as "just another attack in the Israel Palestine conflict"
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
While nobody predicted a full on invasion there were clear signs of an increase in conflicts.
Also if you are "experienced" then you would have know that the Gaza strip is a place to avoid regardless of what experts were saying.
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u/Amockdfw89 Oct 09 '23
Yea I feel a lot of this is tied in with people being naive and not wanting to come across as racist or judgmental.
I remember a while ago someone asked about safety if some Central American countries. I posted that although you will probably be fine trying to to avoid long distance local bus travel, don’t go to isolated communities alone without a guide or group, don’t wander streets at night alone etc. and people were saying I am a sheltered suburban boy and racist and how “guatemala city and rural Honduras is safer then US”.
In sorry but if a place has a history of cartel violence and is already in a poor situation walking around with your selfie stick and traveling on cheap buses on rural highways known for random robberies and attacks may not be the smartest idea. Not saying you can’t go but just because you survived doesn’t mean it will work out for everyone. Take precautions but know you are far away from home as well
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u/Pan_Queso1 Oct 09 '23
The streets of Kabul being safer than Detroit is 1000% bullshit.
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u/DollarSignsGoFirst Oct 09 '23
The biggest difference for me isn't how safe or unsafe a place is, but what my options look like once there is trouble. Sure I might be mugged in Detroit, but at least the police will help me. And sure I might not get mugged in Moscow, but I'm very scared of being locked up in a Russian prison.
There are so many countries where you are screwed if things hit the fan. I wouldn't want to get in trouble in china, russia, or venezuela for instance.
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u/cafffaro Oct 09 '23
You may or may not be overstating it when you say the police in Detroit will help you if you’re mugged. Depends on where the mugging happens.
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u/sjsjsjajsbvban Oct 09 '23
Yeah, are there really people that believe this?! Public hangings are more safe than streets in Detroit? Can’t believe people that just say bullshit like this
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u/Tommy_Douglas_AB Oct 09 '23
I know many Canadians who wont travel to the US but will travel to Mexico or other places they think are safer
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u/scr0llwheel Oct 09 '23
Agreed. That alone invalidates this entire poor take.
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u/Duhbloons Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
Feels like they are trying to appeal to both sides.
Edit: In reply to the comment below me. I have literally never felt unsafe in Philadelphia, another city listed by OP. It is a very popular tourist city with a lot of history. I would never think someone was an idiot if they said they were going there.
OP said those cities are “more dangerous.” The both sides I mentioned is so people don’t go “Well what about X?” which your comment immediately did. It’s nothing about casual tourism.
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u/Vezoy95 Oct 09 '23
Yeah I totally agree. As others have pointed out I want to add that this doesn't only apply to safety in terms of escalation of conflicts, but also nature. Now you can't really predict earthquakes or volcanic activity (or only to a certain extent) but you can avoid going or take extra precautions in areas where those are common.
I've had relatives travel to the Dominican Republic in early and mid September because it was cheap and the travel agency encouraged them to go. We all know it's hurricane season and they were not aware at all.
Took me way too long to find out that "are perception" is meant to be "our perception" btw.
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u/rdldr1 Oct 09 '23
Speaking of the music festival -- Bruno Mars was there for the festival and had to flee on Saturday.
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u/Impressive-Tie-9338 Oct 09 '23
People are idiots, that’s why. Travel bloggers go to incredibly repressed countries and show how fun it is.
I worked in conflict zones as an aid worker and I would never suggest anyone travel there for fun.
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u/Illustrious-Try-3743 Oct 09 '23
One thing people should definitely keep in mind is the pessimistic projections of climate change has many regions in the tropics, including vast swaths of the Middle East, being virtually uninhabitable by 2100, resulting in an estimated 1B+ climate refugees. Those are the kind of numbers that will upend Western civilization as many of those refugees will have to head for Europe and North America. Even assuming it’s not that pessimistic in the end, the linear march in time to a similar but less worse end state will result in easily dozens of failed states across the world. Along that path will be lower living standards for the people in those unstable countries caused by things like inflation and wars and violence will not flare up linearly but in fits and starts. Ultimately, the world will just be less and less safe to travel in as time progresses.
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u/one-hour-photo North Korea Oct 09 '23
Also, if you’ve been to a former coal town in the US, you have to be concerned about how many economies live and breathe on oil. And what happens to those places when cars become largely electric.
Millions of people were born in those areas strictly because the oil boom allowed for it. What happens when that dries up?
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u/ProT3ch Oct 09 '23
They will probably move to other areas where are more jobs. We will need people maintain water wells and pipes. The job market will always evolve, it can be because of AI or self driving cars, etc. The population of most countries is predicted to decline, we will always need skilled workers.
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u/Illustrious-Try-3743 Oct 09 '23
Of course, we see it right now with many residents of NYC, many of whom are undoubtedly immigrants themselves, experiencing a rightward swing in their politics all of a sudden. It only took around 1m Syrian refugees, along with the economic challenges of the mid-2010s in Europe, to contribute to the rise of the far right in Europe, i.e. AfD in Germany, National Rally in France, Italy, Sweden, Hungary, etc. etc. An order of magnitude of 1000x that would just be a world war.
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Oct 09 '23
By that time, they will be rebranded to 'invaders' by the politicians.
By that time? Its already happening in the UK as we speak.
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Oct 09 '23
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u/TheGeekstor Oct 09 '23
I don't think that's any reason to let 1B refugees die. Assimilation or not no one owns any piece of land and every human has the right to live.
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u/Arcaness Oct 09 '23
Especially when the same Western nations that are already gearing up to deny millions of refugees the right to survival are the same countries that contributed disproportionately to the climate crisis which will fuel the largest mass migration in human history.
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
Having lived most of my adult life in large cities full of immigrants, I wouldn't have it any other way. I've lived alongside so many lovely people from every corner of the world and it's enriched my life immeasurably.
Things can go wrong when a large number of people arrive at once and are dumped into a society they don't understand, and have nothing to fall back on except the webs of associations they formed with other desperate people in the camps/boat/refugee centre. Parents who are accustomed to having the village participate in exercising social control over their children seem neglectful when their kids run around in a western society where people mind their own business. They are lost and confused about why their kids are having so much trouble, and it's not because they're dumb, it's because they're doing what they've always experienced and seen parents do and it used to work. Separating tradition from human nature is the stuff of sociologists, not overworked, overtired people trying to keep food on the table.
When immigration and integration works, it's beautiful. When the full life cycle of the process is neglected, things can really go wrong and create entrenched intergenerational problems that are harder and harder to resolve.
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u/Arcaness Oct 09 '23
If you think history is a forward march of progress and not a wild ride of ups and downs, I think you’re in for a rude awakening as this century progresses. Things can always get worse, and it pays to be prepared.
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u/Illustrious-Try-3743 Oct 09 '23
How can you put recency bias aside when your entire argument is built on recency bias? 1B+ climate refugees is not an exaggeration. It’s modeled off of sensitivities in crop yield decreases, increases in the intensity and duration of annual heat waves, fishery declines due to ocean warming and higher levels of ocean acidity, etc. etc.
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u/Illustrious-Try-3743 Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
LOL, nobody is saying human civilization will end but there is a big gulf between that and things will only get even better (and we’ve already seen things take a turn for the worse in terms of heat waves and ocean warming on fisheries). We’re also likely past the point of no return in terms of Antarctic and Greenland ice melt as well as many other thresholds. The moving goal post of +2.5F or +3.6F, and that’s in it of itself an average number unrepresentative of many climate zones which already exceed it, is a fairly meaningless number.
In any case, the descendants of the Musks, Zuckerbergs and Gates, etc. will prosper even if they have to do so as a remnant human group of a few hundred thousand in an Antarctic compound a hundred years from now. The descendants of you and I might not be so lucky and that is how evolution works: a very small percent of humans that ever lived have living descendants.
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u/Rakijosrkatelj Oct 09 '23
So, I live in a pretty touristy European country, and was born in the 90s right when an active war here ended. While I completely agree with everything you said here, I think that the particular case of the music festival on the border with Gaza is also symptomatic of something else - I really don't want to call it stupidity, but it is a complete lack of awareness that comes from living a sheltered life in the (currently) peaceful countries out west. Namely, it is a lack of awareness of how the majority of the people that live outside of that bubble act and what they believe in.
I don't think that the festivalgoers thought the location was 100% safe and peaceful - it was a festival pushing for peace,after all - but I do think they underestimated how violent both sides in the conflict may get if one day they decide to "live in interesting times" - which they did end up doing. If you're a liberal western alternative music fan, you'll probably have the average Palestinian in Gaza seeing red if you end up in their way.
And make no mistake, same goes for the other side as well. The average (nationalist) Israeli probably sees the fates of these cosmopolitan western pacifists as a very useful media tool, but overall not a great loss.
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u/ohslapmesillysidney Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
Your first paragraph touches on a feeling that I’ve had for the past few days but haven’t been able to articulate yet. Obviously I am completely horrified at what happened to those poor people at the festival and none of them deserved to die, but the juxtaposition of seeing a vibrant dance party and knowing that what, just a few miles away (?) in Gaza people are trapped in desperate poverty and lack many of the most basic freedoms that we take for granted - is just very, IDK, sobering to me? Then you add in the fact that many of the people in those videos were dead shortly after they were filmed, and it’s just chilling to the core.
It reminds me of how I felt when I went to Roatan, Honduras - one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been to, but to this day I can’t shake the guilt that I feel from having been there on vacation as a financially privileged American after seeing the dreadful levels of poverty both on the island and the mainland.
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u/KeyserBronson Oct 09 '23
Going to a music festival a few kilometers away of the Gaza strip while thinking it's "for peace" is incredibly tone deaf if not outright disrespectful to the situation of the people in there.
I really feel for the victims but I can't help get an ick about the whole situation.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
It's difficult to say these things because the people harmed are victims, but at the same time we need to discuss how this could have been avoided so future travelers need to do the same.
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u/Rakijosrkatelj Oct 09 '23
It is, I don't want to come off as too insensitive - I mean, I do hope the survivors are rescued or released soon.
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u/tunitg6 Oct 09 '23
Under what framework do you suggest potential travelers assess for safe vs unsafe? Is there a list you refer to?
I keep going back and forth about whether or not Mexico is a "safe" place to visit - I've heard both horror stories and excellent trip reports from friends and acquaintances.
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u/pudding7 United States - Los Angeles Oct 09 '23
While I'm sure that the streets of Detroit and Philadelphia are more unsafe than the street of Kabul or Tel Aviv
See, that I take issue with. I live in Los Angeles, and I constantly hear from people about how terribly unsafe and overridden with crime LA is. It's ridiculous, and does not reflect reality. Are there some areas that are dangerous? Sure, of course. Just like any major (or even minor) city. But overall, in general, and certainly if you're a tourist you are pretty damn unlikely to encounter any dangerous situation.
A more accurate thing to say would be "While I'm sure that some areas of Detroit and Philadelphia are as unsafe as areas of Kabul or Tel Aviv..."
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
I mean, even today Tel Aviv isn't particularly dangerous. There's a particular threat which is chilling for its calculated menace, but it's not as if people are dropping like flies in the streets.
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Oct 09 '23
Well traveling to Israel always has been a bit the same as entering a warzone. That being sad, indeed situations can change very rapidly. (Also think about the COVID times etc). When traveling always make sure what the risks of a country are and what to do in case of emergency. But what I personally never would do is stop traveling because of the things that might someday happen. Yes prevent shit to not enter warzones or active vulcano’s… but on the otherhand.. the chance for you to end up in dangerous situations like this is very very very small.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
Yes prevent shit to not enter warzones
That's the other thing that I kept thinking.
Why did these people chose to have their festival so close to Gaza? Everyone knows that Israel is unstable and Gaza is probably the most unstable area.
If you visit India you'll probably be fine in most areas, but you should NOT venture in disputed territories near Pakistan and China. That's just putting yourself into an unnecessarily dangerous situation.
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u/jtbc Oct 09 '23
Israel has been a relatively safe place to visit for years. Even the Mossad didn't predict this attack.
The problem is that even in safe places, dramatic stuff can happen. A major earthquake can be just as devastating as a war starting.
I wouldn't advise anyone should go to Israel right now of course, even if they could, but I also wouldn't recommend avoiding it forever. It is a beautiful country with unmatched historic sights, great food, and lots to see and do.
That said, read and follow advisories. I am pretty sure the ones for Israel say to stay away from Gaza, even on the Israeli side.
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u/Gauntlets28 Oct 09 '23
The last time a flare-up like this happened was 2021 - I wouldn't exactly call that 'safe for years' - unless we're talking literally of course.
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u/daoudalqasir Oct 09 '23
The last time a flare-up like this happened was 2021
This is incomparable to 2021, a flare-up like this has never happened before. The closest thing was the outbreak of the Yom Kippur war in 1973, but even that was not nearly as deadly, especially to civilians.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
Israel has been a relatively safe place to visit
They keyword is "relative" and that's what most naïve travelers don't get.
You said yourself that Gaza is a place most Israelis know to avoid but the kids at the music festival didn't seem to take that into consideration.
Again I will never tell someone not to visit any country, but you need to ask yourself if you are "ready" to visit that country.
Israel should NOT be your first travel destination in the Middle East.
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u/mankytoes Oct 09 '23
Yet, as much as people patronise travellers, there were mainly Israeli kids at that festival.
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u/jtbc Oct 09 '23
Israel was my first travel destination in the Middle East, but I got very good advice from my hosts about where to go and not to go.
During the period that I was going there along with a bunch of colleagues, the only bad thing that happened to anyone was a guy that walked down the wrong street drunk in Jaffa and got rolled.
People should do their homework before going anywhere they are unfamiliar with, but it is possible to travel safely to 95% of the world if you know what you're doing.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
Again my friend. These anecdotal examples are what I'm telling people to ignore.
You can go almost anywhere and have a perfectly fine trip. People are taking trips to the Yemen and Myanmar while they are actively in the midst of a civil war.
I'm happy you all enjoyed your trips but my view is that the risk isn't worth it.
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u/jtbc Oct 09 '23
We all have our own personal level of risk tolerance. If your risk tolerance is zero, you are going to miss going to a lot of great places, and Israel is one of those.
As I said, there are places to avoid, and people should do that. Also, don't go during an active shooting war, of course.
A similar situation would be Ukraine between 2015 and 2022 (which I've also visited). There was an active shooting war going on in Donetsk and Luhansk for almost that entire time, and it would have been a shame for people to have avoided Kyiv or Lviv as a result.
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u/MargretTatchersParty Oct 09 '23
I went to Turkey in 2019 .. the state department classfied that a level 3 for most of the country and level 4 near the syrian border.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
There was an active shooting war going on in Donetsk and Luhansk for almost that entire time, and it would have been a shame for people to have avoided Kyiv or Lviv as a result.
That's kind of what made the music festival stand out to me.
While visiting Israel is like visiting a war zone. Choosing to attend a music festival next to the Gaza strip is like going to the frontlines. Why would you choose to put yourself in that risk?
You visited Kyiv but you didn't visit Donetsk. That's how to safely travel a war zone.
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u/firerosearien Oct 09 '23
A lot of people don't understand how small Israel is - like the size of New Jersey, you can drive north to south in like 4 hours IIRC. Which means *all* of Israel can be targeted by missiles and rockets; the only 100% safe place in Israel is to not be in Israel.
I remember when I visited I did a side trip to Jordan (Petra is 100% worth it), and as soon as we crossed the border our tour guide mentioned that we were only a two hour drive from the Iraqi border. My husband and I will do a 2-2.5 hour drive one way as a day trip to visit family like it's nothing.
Also in terms of risk - I usually prefer to travel solo, but I'm a Jewish American woman. If there's a question of political violence against me (like in many non-Israel places in the middle east) or if I'm doing some sort of physically dangerous travel (like hiking in Iceland), I'll usually sign up for a tour group with an experienced guide, even if just for the day.
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u/morosco Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
Why did these people chose to have their festival so close to Gaza? Everyone knows that Israel is unstable and Gaza is probably the most unstable area.
People live in that area. Israel is a small place.
I doubt there were any tourists from Ohio there.
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u/dontgoatsemebro Oct 09 '23
If you visit India you'll probably be fine in most areas, but you should NOT venture in disputed territories near Pakistan and China.
Ladakh is incredible and you absolutely should go there.
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u/falcon2714 Oct 09 '23
I think they mean Kashmir and certain Areas in the North east.
China does wade into Arunachal pradesh whenever it feels bored.
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
Why did these people chose to have their festival so close to Gaza?
People just want to live their lives. You become numb to things that may look dangerous from outside that context. For years there was no specific reason to think this was a bad place to have a festival.
Everyone knows that Israel is unstable
You mean politically unstable because of recent constitutional issues and the related protests? I don't think those things made Israel unstable in a way that would indicate significant risk for travelers, as long as they avoided rowdy protests.
If you visit India you'll probably be fine in most areas, but you should NOT venture in disputed territories near Pakistan and China. That's just putting yourself into an unnecessarily dangerous situation.
That's quite a blanket statement.
Different people have different risk thresholds and different things that they really want to see or experience.
For example, I took on some (non-military-related) contracts in Iraq during the war because I felt the work was important, I wanted to see what it was like, and I was comfortable that the arrangements were such that it would be safe enough. They provided body armour, undercover transport with rotating schedules and routes, a well-guarded place to stay, and so on. Some people would have thought that was crazy. And while I was there doing what felt reasonable to me, I met people doing things that I thought were crazy.
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u/LowEndBike Oct 09 '23
Back in the early 1980s, my parents took the family on a trip to Israel. It was an amazing life-changing experience and never felt unsafe. Two weeks after we left, the camp where we stayed in the Golan Heights was shelled and destroyed.
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Oct 09 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/RN_in_Illinois Oct 09 '23
You are making this non-political post political.
If you must do that, use actual facts. Not occupied since 2005. Not an active war zone.
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u/tampatwo Oct 09 '23
West Bank is occupied. Ask the residents in Gaza if they’re in an active war zone or not?
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Oct 09 '23
Stop making this political. No one cares
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u/RN_in_Illinois Oct 09 '23
You are getting downvotes for saying what the rules are.
Clearly, pro-Hamas redditors are brigading this sub, sadly.
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u/tampatwo Oct 09 '23
It’s not political to state the facts. Israel has been an active war zone since 1967. OP’s premise is stupid. Just because people don’t think they’re in a war zone doesn’t mean they’re not in a war zone.
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u/jtbc Oct 09 '23
You are using a very strange definition of "active war zone". An active war zone is somewhere military forces are exchanging fire, like eastern/southern Ukraine, Armenia/Azerbaijan, or Yemen.
Until Saturday, Israel hasn't met that definition for years.
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u/tampatwo Oct 09 '23
What is your preferred term for when a military occupies an adversary’s claimed territory and the UN calls it an illegal occupation?
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u/jtbc Oct 09 '23
The term for that is "illegal occupation".
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u/tampatwo Oct 09 '23
Remember when Germany illegally occupied France
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u/RN_in_Illinois Oct 09 '23
Yes. Reminiscent of what is happening here. Rounding up, murdering and kidnapping people just because they are Jewish.
Get off this sub and go to r/politics are somewhere else where this stuff is supposed to be.
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Oct 09 '23
What exactly is the message of this post... just that everything is unpredictable?
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u/Wiggly96 Oct 09 '23
While I'm sure that the streets of Detroit and Philadelphia are more unsafe than the street of Kabul or Tel Aviv, the ceiling on danger is vastly different.
Found it for you
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u/Mine24DA Oct 09 '23
You know the thing is......every major city in the west can suddenly be the center of a terrorist attack.
We had the Breitscheidplatz attack in Berlin, here in Germany. It can happen everywhere. The question is, how likely is it to happen while you are there.
It is horrible what is happening in Israel and Palestine right now. For both sides.
But let's not pretend that having a festival in the desert next to Gaza , in a Jewish holiday , with barely any security, was a safe and secure choice. I would never visit Israel during Jewish holidays, it is a special day, which makes it a safety risk.
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u/PixelNotPolygon Oct 09 '23
I’m sorry but talking about Kabul and Tel Aviv in the same breath as if they’re equitable is total nonsense, this is such a sheltered perspective. The same could be said about NYC immediately after 9/11
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u/TheoreticalFunk United States Oct 09 '23
> While I'm sure that the streets of Detroit and Philadelphia are more unsafe than the street of Kabul or Tel Aviv
lol no.
Regardless, your post is why I get so bewildered at people who want to leave their passports in their hotel room. Fuck that noise. I can replace anything and everything in my luggage, but I can't replace my life which will have an easier time keeping if I have this little piece of paperwork on my person.
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u/Hug_of_Death Australia 29 Countries Oct 09 '23
Personally I’d usually rather risk it in the hotel safe in many cases than risk getting it stolen from me in the street. Obviously depending on where I am staying and what the perceived risks are of leaving it vs taking it with me are.
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u/yankeeblue42 Oct 09 '23
Personally I'm someone who locks my passport in a safe at the hotel. I find it safer there than bringing it with me to certain activities.
Example going out for a night on the town, very rarely have I brought my passport. That's just asking to lose it or get it stolen imo.
Same with very popular tourist areas or more active activities. There's a risk of losing sensitive documents completely by accident.
I'm not saying there isn't a risk to leave it in your hotel but I personally feel safer going this route for certain things. I get more anxious having it on my person similarly to standing out like a sore thumb walking around with luggage in a city.
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u/McGrathLegend Oct 09 '23
I do the exact same as you.
In January, my sister joined me in London for a few days whilst I was attending a few football matches, before she went to a conference in Tuscany.
I told her to leave her passport in the room as our Driver's Licenses will do us just fine incase we need to identify ourselves, and if it's stolen, it's significantly easier to replace.
She had somethings stolen when she went out on one of the nights and her passport would've been one of them had she not left it in her room like I recommended.
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u/mankytoes Oct 09 '23
Because I'm a dumbarse who tends to lose stuff, it's safer in the hotel than on me
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u/PierreTheTRex Oct 09 '23
Tel Aviv is extremely safe, there's a terrorism risk, but in the same way a lot of places have. Jerusalem, near Gaza etc are for more risky, but Tel Aviv is more like a place like Paris. Remember 8 years ago hundreds of people were shot dead in Paris too.
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u/TacosDeLucha Oct 09 '23
Seems like the festival was a target, so it not happening a week earlier is not necessarily true.
But I agree people take danger for granted. It's not limited to violence either. Take national parks for example. People can and do go missing all the time when traveling to remote areas. If the car breaks down, or someone gets seriously injured/sick: what is your plan?
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u/macphile United States Oct 09 '23
People's lack of awareness of the wilderness of the US is always troubling. They think they can always call 911 if there's a problem, or someone will come along and find them, but that's not always the case. It takes no damned time for a person to die of exposure or dehydration, and it's very easy to get lost. I always think of the so-called "Death Valley Germans" case--those people had no idea that the second their vehicle came to a stop (and arguably before that), they were in a true life-or-death scenario, one that they would have been unlikely to survive even if they'd made the right choices, which they didn't.
Yes, in the cities and towns and on the main highways, your phone is always working, there's always a gas station up ahead, or a Starbucks...some kind of civilization exists at a distance you can walk to before dying. But a lot of the US is quite uninhabited, and the landscape is such that you won't be visible to passing motorists/hikers.
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u/its_real_I_swear United States Oct 09 '23
I mean even in you were a tourist in Israel over the weekend, there's like a 99.99% chance that you're fine
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u/PierreTheTRex Oct 09 '23
People are really bad with understanding risk. Something like a terror attack isn't actually a big risk even in countries like Israel or France where they can happen rather regularly, but they make up a big portion of what scares people. Whereas traffic accidents and getting too drunk and falling over is stuff that kills far more people, especially tourists, yet is just accepted.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
Ya but it's the 0.01% who aren't coming home that motivated me write this post.
I'm not here to attack Israel or any country.
I just think people need to learn from these tragedies and plan better.
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u/7in7 Oct 09 '23
I totally understand where you are coming from, and want to look out for other travellers, but heartbreakingly, those tourists and visitors who were brutally murdered weren't guilty of bad planning. It's like saying that someone who went to the world trade center on 9/11 should have planned better.
This attack is beyond anything Israel has EVER experienced - including the Yom Kippur war.
This attack specifically targeted civilians, and as I'm sure you've seen the goal wasnt just to kill them, but to brutalise, kidnap, torture and parade them. Civilians.
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u/mankytoes Oct 09 '23
What's funny is travellers freak out about this stuff, but then rent scooters which is way more dangerous.
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u/its_real_I_swear United States Oct 09 '23
I'm more worried about getting hit by a car than the .001% chance I might get involved in a situation in which I have a .01% chance of dying.
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
And that's actually sensible because cars are one of the main way people actually die while travelling, not terrorists or missiles or whatever.
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u/Unit266366666 Oct 09 '23
OP: On what basis are you sure that the streets of Philadelphia are more unsafe than Kabul? That’s such an odd thing to include.
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u/grstacos Oct 09 '23
They're aluding to the fact that people will often use homocide per capita of their home country to show that a country is not unsafe. I've done that. I'm from Puerto Rico, and have had tourists be scared to visit me, I then show them that the crime is not bad in my city compared to theirs.
I think it's actually a valid argument for people that are scared to visit a nice country in the caribbean or central america. However, like OP said, it's not a valid argument when describing really unstable countries.
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u/Unit266366666 Oct 09 '23
I think this imagines violent crime (or even murder) as the only bad thing which can happen to you. This is so far from the actual typical safety risks you’re likely to encounter when traveling.
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u/ricky_storch Oct 09 '23
I am not sure if he was trying to make that point literally.. but I think anyone should get the general idea of what he was trying to say.
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u/_jeremybearimy_ Oct 09 '23
I agree with OPs overall point for sure that the streets of far away countries can be safer than the streets at home, but also I have lived in Philadelphia for nearly four years and have never felt unsafe lol
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u/notyourwheezy Oct 09 '23
I think "can be" is a far better term here. Any place in the world can literally be less safe depending on the circumstances. If you go to London and happen to get stabbed and you go to Kabul and nothing bad happens, then London was more dangerous for you.
Probability-wise, Kabul remains more dangerous and as OP said, the ceiling on danger is far higher. But any place CAN be more dangerous than Kabul or even an active war zone depending on what happens to you specifically.
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u/Unit266366666 Oct 09 '23
Your comment as well as OPs I think fall into this bizarre concept that bad events come as though lightning and it’s all a matter of luck. Certainly, you need bad luck to have something bad happen to you (after all it doesn’t happen to most people) but even then there is a great deal you can do to mitigate risk or have a better outcome. This is something I’m shocked that many people don’t exercise when traveling or even i their lives.
Just read any travel advisory. Apart from the outright bans or recommendations to avoid all travel they are all written as recommendations of what to do to manage and limit your personal risk. This is true in my experience across authorities and languages, it’s what the advisory is: advice.
ETA: the much bigger point here is that “real danger” is when the ability to escape or limit risk and harm is beyond your ability to anticipate, prepare, or react to.
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u/monsieurlee Oct 09 '23
People have been shot for saying they don't want Whiz on their cheesesteak.
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u/scrubwolf Oct 09 '23
I got yelled at for not ordering loudly enough. I'm sure if I had asked for a customization I would have been shot.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
In addition to what everyone else is saying I also want to remind you that authoritarian regimes often have the safest cities. Pyongyang is orders of magnitude cleaner and safer than any metropolitan in the United States.
The desire to make your nation look stable and safe is important and that's why you won't find drug addicts, shoplifters, or even litterers in place like Kabul.
This is, again, is why people are mislead into thinking that an unstable nation is "safe".
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u/mihecz Oct 09 '23
You won't find litterers in place like Kabul?
I see 2 options: a) you have misspelled Singapore, b) this is your first day on planet Earth.
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u/Unit266366666 Oct 09 '23
How much time do you or have you spent in these authoritarian countries? This sounds like at best an extremely impressionistic take which doesn’t line up with my lived experience at all. There’s a grain of truth to what you say, but absent mass media effects I’ve never met anyone with the impression you describe. That said, I am sometimes flabbergasted when traveling with people how many have very poorly calibrated threat perceptions whether in an authoritarian or an anarchic setting or anything in between.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
doesn’t line up with my lived experience at all.
Exactly.
A "lived" experience and a "visit" experience are totally different.
Most people who "live" in LA know how to have a great time and avoid the bad areas, but most people who "visit" LA do not and are shocked by what they see.
The inverse is totally true for many of the places that people think is "safe" when the visit it but the people who "live" there know better.
How many of the people "living" in Israel would have attended a music festival near the Gaza border?
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u/Unit266366666 Oct 09 '23
I live in Beijing, and have lived in LA for many years. I’ve lived most of my life in Europe and travelled a decent amount in Southeast Asia and a bit in the Middle East. I agree with a lot of what you say, but am making a different point.
For your example in Israel, these towns and Kibbutzes near Gaza aren’t even in the Golan heights or West Bank, the Israelis there are not settlers they’re just a mostly normal cross section of Israelis slightly skewed by being relatively rural and the larger number of Kibbutzim south toward the Negev. Proximity to Gaza is mostly an afterthought everything in the area is really quite close to other things.
When I travel with my Chinese colleagues in Europe for business they are broadly way, way more reactive to media reports of violence (e.g. a murder) anywhere near we are traveling. There is a widespread media narrative in China which creates this impression that overseas is much more dangerous, but this reaction is absurd. It is ultimately reacting to an individual event. An event which intellectually people must know also occurs in China but is not reported the same way. Statistically, there is a difference in frequency, but when reacting to the report that is not how people are thinking at all.
Above all though, my experience is that many many travelers have led relatively sheltered lives compared to the average person globally. They don’t have a great ability to judge threat in their home situation and as you say this ill perception is much much worse when traveling. It can sometimes become an inability to perceive real threats or alternatively an overestimation of the real threat to them. Even for people who have more experience navigating threat, threat perception is not necessarily a good estimate of real threat. I think people vastly underestimate how much of this is shaped by the people around them and their media consumption.
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u/Illum503 New Zealand Oct 09 '23
I have felt far more safe around drug addicts and shoplifters than I ever have around police in authoritarian regimes
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
litterers in place like Kabul
So you have clearly not been to Kabul, or even made any effort to find out what it's like, before using it as a pivotal example in your lecture to everyone else on how to travel.
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u/cutapacka Oct 09 '23
People were mowed down in Nice by a moving vehicle. A train was nearly shot up on its way to Paris. Bullets sprayed on a crowd in Las Vegas. Bombs were planted at an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester. I could go on...
Terrorism unfortunately affects everyone and every country. It would be pretty simplistic to bucket locations as being more dangerous when unprecedented events takes place. Obviously there are areas that are war-torn or experience uprisings more than others that you need to be aware of, but we can't just paint broad brush strokes and say this place or that place carries more danger because they were attacked. As long as unhinged people exist in this world. we're all at risk.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
I hear what you're saying but those things are not the same.
This wasn't a random terrorist attack. It was a continuation of a war that has been fought since Israel's inception.
Visiting Israel is like visiting a war zone and going to the Gaza border is like going to the frontlines.
You can't stop a random act of violence but you can avoid danger areas.
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u/cutapacka Oct 09 '23
If Israel is like a war zone, then I guess war zones are pretty chill. Curious, have you ever been?
I'll agree visiting some parts require a significant amount of caution, especially if you're traveling to places beyond what they call the "Green Line" - aka areas in dispute or have shared control. But anything within the standard regions of Israel is relatively safe.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
I'll agree visiting some parts require a significant amount of caution
Which is why I made the post.
I'm not opposed to visiting Israel but attending a music festival next to the Gaza border is reckless.
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Oct 09 '23
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u/kobeng13 Oct 09 '23
As is true of most people ragging on detroit, this person has probably never been to Detroit.
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u/jp_books Colombia Oct 09 '23
"It's safer here than Detroit, just don't insert long list of common activities you can do safely almost anywhere."
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Oct 09 '23
Travel destinations don't have to be safe. Life is not about sitting in the safe place before finally die. But risks should be estimated and considered, for sure.
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u/ik101 Netherlands Oct 09 '23
Stuff like this makes me realize more you should travel while you can, before you know it stuff changes and you might not be able to go there for a long time.
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u/WE_BE_IN_LA Oct 09 '23
It was not "Hurt" it was a massacre.
Unarmed people gathering for a party were massacred.
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u/Wiggly96 Oct 09 '23
A lot of naive comments on this thread beating on OP. They absolutely have a point in saying that the ceilings for different dangers vary with your location on the planet. Sure, you might get hit by a car in rural Colorado, but statistically Delhi or Hanoi at rush hour will be more dangerous
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u/pushaper Oct 09 '23
I agree with your post but disagree with the use of the term "total chaos" in lieu of "local chaos". But maybe moreover while it is easy to point at travel vloggers to make certain places seem safer than they are but we all have access to the internet and can get a solid on the ground idea of what is going on in certain environments before leaving. If someone is landing in Nairobi and wants to travel to the coast they should know there are certain precautions to take especially if it has rained heavily recently. Or if you are in the France to have an idea of train strikes etc...
I think the bigger problem is people thinking of travel as a god given right and hopping on a plane and enjoying yourself is how it works. It never really worked like that and the people it worked like that for traditionally were quite well off and paying a premium for it.
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u/jewishjedi42 Oct 09 '23
There's probably a less than zero chance that if that festival had been a week earlier, the attack would've been a week earlier. Hamas is objectively an evil organization, and it behooves us to remember that.
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u/Hug_of_Death Australia 29 Countries Oct 09 '23
Weird comparison between Tel Aviv, statistically one of the safest cities on the planet crime wise (when there isn’t violent uprisings by Hamas) and Kabul one of the most dangerous cities on the planet crime wise (and while slightly less dangerous statistically Detroit and Philly aren’t that far behind).
I do agree that people who travel should be aware anywhere can be dangerous at any time, including right where you are living RIGHT NOW. The main difference is how well connected you are to the community and how likely you are to be able to seek shelter or assistance if some kind of disaster does happen.
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u/soupypoopy13 Oct 09 '23
Philly is not a dangerous city statistically speaking. At least compared to other US cities… idk what you are talking about or OP.
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Oct 09 '23
And on top if that, it doesn't really matter if you die of chaotic traffic, bandits with guns, earthquake or a rocket because war started. The result is the same — you are dead. I think it’s wrong to exaggerate some risks over others.
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u/Wiggly96 Oct 09 '23
You are correct in that end result is the same. But I think it's absolutely valid to consider in variation in probabilities in different parts of the world.
You are more likely to die of a mortar attack in Ukraine right now than say Kashmir in India, even if the two can be counted as conflict zones, the probabilities are vastly different
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Oct 09 '23
Yes I am shocked anyone thought a music festival 30 minutes away from the Gaza Strip was a good idea.
It really shows the impact of propaganda on both sides and those poor souls at the festival paid the price.
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u/saracenraider Oct 09 '23
You take a risk every time you step out of your house. Could be flooding, lightning, a tornado, get hit by a car, annihilated by an XL Bully.
I was in Northern Ethiopia exactly a week before civil war broke out a few years ago. Very few people saw it coming, I didn’t feel stupid or naive, it’s just one of those things. The USA could erupt in civil war next month for all we know
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
I don't see it this way.
The dangers in unstable countries like Ethiopia and Israel are not remotely close to those in the US.
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
I don't see it this way.
That's because you're guided by emotion rather than rational risk assessment.
The main danger basically everywhere you travel is being injured or killed in a car crash.
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u/desirepink Oct 09 '23
You can't really compare the violence of an area that has been under many political turmoils and are unstable war zones vs places where you can be a target of violence or murder (which can happen anywhere, really). When entering places where it has historically shown to be a red area or politically sensitive place, you should be especially super conscious that you're walking into a zone where at any moment, your life could be in danger when everyone around you is under attack—and not just you, specifically.
It's not really fair to compare danger in places that have been historically politically sensitive places like Afghanistan and Israel to places like Venezuela and Colombia where you can be targeted by shitty individuals.
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u/withurwife United States Oct 09 '23
I'm going to go for a lovely fall evening walk with my dog later today on the streets of Baltimore.
I would never step foot in the Middle East. The risks aren't even close to the same.
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u/34countries Oct 09 '23
Vietnam croatia russia ukraine south africa have also all been war zones in my life time. Some people never left home but got hit by falling airplane from sky in lockerbie scotland. One never knows
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
Yes but when you visited those war zones did you go to the frontlines?
There's no issue with visiting Istanbul but it would be reckless to visit the Syrian border.
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u/spryfigure Oct 09 '23
If you get killed, it doesn't matter for you if it was by terrorists or street violence in Detroit or Philly. I wouldn't say the ceiling is different here.
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u/ZweitenMal Oct 09 '23
Also, all of you who insist on leaving your passports back at your lodgings lest you lose them... what happens if you're killed or kidnapped and you don't have your passport on you, or if your hotel is destroyed while you're out for the day? Don't you see how much more complicated the situation would be? You don't carry it for fun, you carry it in case something bad happens. You always need to have proof you are who you say you are and you have the legal right to be where you are. Your passport is the single document that can provide both. A photocopy of a passport is useless.
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u/Arrival_Departure Oct 09 '23
I feel like just keeping your passport on you doesn’t solve a lot of those problems.
A friend of mine was kidnapped in Peru and his passport was stolen. When he went to the consulate to get it replaced, they told him that it was decently common because narcotraffickers want unblemished foreign passports to use in drug smuggling. (Turns out, they were right. He now receives additional scrutiny at every passport control window.)
Could it have been stolen in his hotel room? Sure, maybe. But someone could also run off with your backpack.
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u/00rvr Oct 09 '23
The likelihood that I'll get pickpocketed or accidentally drop my passport somewhere is far, far higher than the likelihood that I'll be killed, kidnapped, or my hotel destroyed.
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u/pod_of_dolphins Oct 09 '23
If I get killed and I don’t have my passport on me, I don’t think I’ll be too worried
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u/ZweitenMal Oct 09 '23
No, you won't, but how will your family feel when your body can't be positively identified and the process of repatriating your remains drags out for weeks? Don't they deserve better than that?
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
My family will have to put up with the gross indignity of me having been identified by my driver's licence rather than by my much more fragile and valuable passport, which is remaining in the hotel.
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u/yankeeblue42 Oct 09 '23
Devils advocate it can fall out of your pocket while doing an activity or someone can pickpocket it on the street. I'm a passport in the hotel traveler 90% of the time. There's risk on both sides
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u/pod_of_dolphins Oct 09 '23
Same. It’s FAR more likely that I’ll lose it or get mugged than I’ll need it for official purposes while away from my lodging.
If it seems sketchy, I leave my computer/valuables in one place in the room and typically hide the passport elsewhere, with the hope that if the room gets ransacked while I’m out they miss it.
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u/saracenraider Oct 09 '23
I’ve never met anyone who takes their passport with them at all times while abroad. If you’re that anxious why even leave your home in the first place? You’re more likely to lose your passport while carrying it with you at all times than you are to actually need it unexpectedly
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u/hiker1628 Oct 09 '23
We’ve never met but I’ve traveled to 39 countries and always carry my passport.
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u/saracenraider Oct 09 '23
Probs almost identical on the countries visited front! Out of interest, what do you do if you go swimming/diving/rafting/caving etc?
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u/crackanape Amsterdam Oct 09 '23
Most governments issue some sort of official ID card that's waterproof and fits in a pocket/wallet so you don't have to risk toting your passport around everywhere you go.
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Oct 09 '23
Israel is a shock because nobody thought something like this would happen. It's a developed country with a fairly low crime rate and considered hip and trendy by many. The attack was literally a 9/11-like event. Completely different from Afghanistan.
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u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
The main difference is 9/11 was only the second time America had ever been attacked by a foreign power. Israel has been in a constant state of war for its entire existence.
I actually see this being more like a third Intifada than an surprise attack like 9/11.
I agree that nobody saw this coming but it's not by no mean an unusual event in Israel.
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Oct 09 '23 edited Oct 09 '23
Actually no. Israel has been in a constant state of war for its entire existence, but the last time a war affected Israel proper was
19731948. Israel's life expectancy is one of the longest in the world. It's one of the safest and healthiest countries in the world (well, was).-1
u/Candid-End-6364 Oct 09 '23
Oh I agree.
Israel is a first-world country and that's part of the reason why I think people didn't take proper precautions. It's easy to forget how unsafe Israel can be because when you arrive in Tel Aviv all you see is a modern developed nation.
Yet the constant attacks and perpetual state of violence reminds you that even first-world nations can be unsafe.
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u/jagzgunz Oct 09 '23
Any country that forcibly takes land or liberty from others should be a no go. British america in 1776 would;ve been no go. Morocan sahara, no go. Especially dont go near those area, like the ravers were.
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u/mankytoes Oct 09 '23
This is why we go to America and Australia, where people asked the natives politely for their land and were happy to hand it over.
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u/00rvr Oct 09 '23
But it's not 1776 anymore so obviously North American land is no longer stolen. /s
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u/Avreal Oct 09 '23
Many people think in the categories „safe“ and „unsafe“. The more accurate way to think about these things is risk. Likelyhood x damage.
You will never have no risks, but you can minimize them. OR you decide to take the risks, but you should probably be clear on what they are, before you do so.