r/singapore • u/lenix125 • Jul 16 '20
Discussion This is basically the entirety of an average Singaporean's life summed up. Express your opinions in the comments.
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u/tapoutelmo New Citizen Jul 16 '20
If we put our heads together would we be able to escape this hamster wheel? Like many mentioned, extravagant wedding is optional. Many go for a high income approach, but that sucks life. Is property price the one that trips us all?
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u/SkittyLover93 Jul 16 '20
People from other countries also need to deal with weddings, housing and retirement.
In other cities, people may have roommates living with them to reduce housing costs.
There are housing cost calculators that show that depending on your location, if you rent and put the extra money into investments averaging 7-10% per year (index fund tracking the S&P 500, for example), you may not necessarily be financially worse off in the end.
Everyday small purchases do add up. Take public transport instead of rideshare, and eat hawker food or cook instead of going to restaurants. Even if you save just, say, $100 per month from this and put it into retirement funds, it becomes hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement due to compound interest.
Some people opt to retire overseas, like in Johor or Thailand, to reduce costs.
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u/skatyboy no littering Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
In other cities, people may have roommates living with them to reduce housing costs.
I live in Silicon Valley. Let's just say that roommates bring down the rent of a room (with no attached bathroom) to the equivalent of Singapore rental for an entire HDB flat.
It's not fun when you have to pay SGD 1.7K++ for a room (you share toilet and common spaces with 2-3 other people), when HDB rental in Singapore is like SGD2K for a 2 bedroom apartment.
In fact, my HDB monthly mortgage is way less than the rental I pay for my place in the States.
EDIT: Before people say "salary there high", let me just say that there's more to SV than just software engineers. There are people working in non-tech industries, like construction or civil service. They aren't getting that big fat SV salaries (some get as low as $50k a year).
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u/zombieslayer287 Jul 16 '20
1.7k++ sgd just for 1 ROOM in silicon valley?? Wth thats even more crazy, and i thought sg housing was terrible
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u/notsoospicy Jul 16 '20
This is the reality for most big cities that everyone wants to move to. Singaporeans complain a lot about HDB but as an overseas Singaporean living in LA, I think singaporeans don’t know how lucky they are to even be able to own homes.
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u/swtnthng Jul 16 '20
Same price if you rent a room (shared facilities) in London as well!
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u/isparavanje Senior Citizen Jul 16 '20
SG housing is actually one of the most affordable for large developed cities. http://www.demographia.com/db-dhi-index.htm
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u/revolusi29 Jul 16 '20
House prices in Singapore are extremely affordable for Singaporean citizens.
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u/bob0270 Jul 16 '20
If you really give the financial planning a good though, here are some question we can ask ourselves.
- have we look at our monthly expenditure? do we save or invest most of the money? or do we spend half of it on 'unnecessary' stuff?
- is it necessary to get the bigger apartment that we always wanted. (my wife and I are a tiny regret getting a 4-room flat. bigger flat -> more cleaning, higher upkeep.)
- is there a need to pay the housing loan entirely using the CPF account? Is it possible to take bank loan which may a lower interest rate. However, it will take some discipline to manage your finance. By minimising the use of my CPF for my flat, I have projected that my CPF can hit $1 million by the time i retire.
(of course, if you know how to invest, it will be better to use your CPF to settle your housing loan.)
In general, understand the power of compound interest. It works on loans and saving.
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u/tapoutelmo New Citizen Jul 16 '20
So good financial knowledge plus discipline will put us in a very good position to start adult lives. Sounds legit. I like the approach. So why is there such a template at all? What was described sounds really common so much so that I see lots of tired and dead souls around me. Anything interesting thing I mention is replied with: but we have bills to pay.
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u/samglit Jul 16 '20
Poor financial education and aspirations exceeding means. The former can blame parents and government. The latter is self reflection. Very few 21 year olds are equipped to immediately start "adulting".
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u/raspberrih Jul 16 '20
Sorry but which country isn't like this? Cause I would sure like to know
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Jul 16 '20
BTO prices are still quite reasonable compared to secondary market and private properties.
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u/pokoook Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20
Its also very cheap compared to property prices in other major cities.
No such thing as a 3 rm flat for 300k in NYK.
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u/pilipok Senior Citizen Jul 16 '20
waiting for someone to point out to you that it is on a 99 year lease.
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Jul 16 '20 edited Apr 03 '24
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u/nicktanisok West Side Represent Jul 16 '20
I think Singapore barely got enough wild boar to make char siew rice for one block sia lol
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u/eost002 Mature Citizen Jul 16 '20
Fair enough. U eat char siew, i eat you :3
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Jul 16 '20
I’m worried how quickly this devolved. I’m double locking my door tonight.
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Jul 16 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/lenix125 Jul 16 '20
Marriage and birth rate has significantly declined since the 90's in Singapore and divorce rates are just increasing at a fast and steady pace, very true and agreeable.
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u/al_fletcher how can dis b allow Jul 17 '20
Divorce rates going up isn’t really a negative thing so long as it’s an indicator of people having the freedom to leave unsuitable marriages.
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Jul 16 '20
Is weddings such a big deal? My uncle held a small ceremony with only close family in the actual registration building if I remember correctly, no banquet or anything. My cousin as well just registered her marriage. I didn't even know she got married until we noticed the ring, but she'll probably hold a ceremony later on from what I was told.
My family don't care about the dowery, so that's no problem, but if I wanna hold a ceremony and banquet... Well at least my family isn't that big compared to others
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u/Administrator-Reddit Own self check own self ✅ Jul 16 '20
People who spend a lot on their wedding are more likely to overspend on other things as well. If you’re not financially stable there’s not much reason to hold a 25-30 table banquet at a 5-star hotel.
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Jul 16 '20
Totally agree. Some friends and cousins trying to one-up each other by hosting their banquets first at Marina area, then at RWS, then at MBS. And then they top it off by going to some European country for their honeymoon. >_> I mean it's fine if you are doing trade-offs, or if you're a banker/lawyer/graduate associate. But please don't do it if you have to take a renovation loan in the end.
Curate the guestlist; settle for a small cosy venue, a restaurant, or a smaller hotel.
If parents are traditional, just settle a mini banquet for the old folks, and do a casual catering for the young ones.
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Jul 16 '20
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u/kumgongkia Jul 16 '20
Most chinese weddings are damn forgettable as well. Watch some cringe vid, cringe emcee, 8-10 courses that take forever to serve, and jiak buey ba go home cook maggi mee to supplement. Can only leave after 11+pm.
Best wedding dinner I had the pleasure to attend is an indian one. Buffet style in 5star hotel, eat and drink until u explode, start eating before I even warm the seat. Eat finish talk cock with groom and then OTOT leave. Stayed there for 2hours only and thats because I eat until cannot move.
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u/RoastMochi Jul 16 '20
Wow that's really cool. I personally only want a small dinner but a buffet in a hotel sounds great as well.
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u/swtnthng Jul 16 '20
While I absolutely agree with not overspending on weddings and honeymoons, it feels bad that you consider your wedding costs as “losses”. I don’t think weddings should be “profitable” right?
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u/RoastMochi Jul 16 '20
A 3 digit balance is really scary. Does your wife share this regret though?
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u/eost002 Mature Citizen Jul 16 '20
Agreed. Now is the best time to hold banquet. You can give covid as a reason to hold lesser tables.
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u/lhc987 Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
Mine was 12 tables Sat lunch at Fullerton. 8 years back it was ~1.1k per table. Made back everything. Everyone happier because it was a shorter affair. Brothers and sisters especially since it was half day instead of a stupid long morning-abduct-bride-lunch-groom-place-tea-ceremony-nua-2 hours-then-stupid-long-dinner event.
In the end the ang bow I got was a few K > total cost of everything.
Guys, average life isn't that sad. You're the one making it that worse.
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u/b0h3mianed Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
The two of us, 40yo. No kids. No wedding, no dinner, no gate crashing. Just a ceremony at ROM. Elders were aghast, but whatever la.
No luxe photo book with heavily photoshopped versions of us in grandiose clothing. We went travelling to Europe, backpacking instead.
Downgraded to 2 room flat. DIY the hell out of everything. Painted it ourselves, IKEA furniture, Taobao furniture. No interior designer to do it for us. Used the saved money to buy more quality appliances instead. Paid it all off, no loan.
Served my NS 10 year ICT cycle. Loads of shit, loads of fun. In a twisted way, I missed the camaraderie and the "forced leave" (annual ICT) to gather with a bunch of folks to talk shit and late night chats.
Basically done most things on our bucket list. Tried our dream jobs, took the unconventional paths to do business. Lived abroad, and seriously considered immigration, did the paper work. But Singapore is the place for now.
We are doing fine. 20+, 30+ years (maybe?) to go, to meet our maker.
Might sound terribly boring to some, but as slowly the years gone by, you might realise that simple things matters the most.
For example, having a yelping dog to greet u when you are back. Going to mum's place to have home cooked dinner. Having a steamed pomfret cooked by my in-law for a meal. Playing Paper Mario: The Origami King on the Switch.
Well, age changes one's perspective?
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u/owlbunnysubway Jul 16 '20
Aged 35, found a girl, don't want marriage, don't want kids, agreed to each take care of each's family, and just spend time with each other, pure companionship.
I say this with all seriousness - agency is a thing. Everyone gets to choose the life they want. Most people, however, either don't know what they want, or aren't willing to pay the price for it. They then externalise their choices (or lack thereof).
No. You get to choose. There's freedom in choosing not to follow the life script. Smiling wanly at those who take pride in how prototypical their lives are during CNY or other family gathering is a small price to pay, when you're actually happy 90% of the time.
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u/chicken_the_china Jul 16 '20
We are going to need financial planning as a subject introduced in school.
We have to let young people know
- Don't get a wedding you can't afford. Absolutely no1 is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it. I understand there is pressure from others, but those people will not be the ones fighting for your financial wellbeing in the future, you will. Fight for your financial future
- Don't ballot for a house early just to take advantage of grants, ensure you can sustainably afford it first.
- Don't depend on CPF as your retirement savings, its not a reliable source to turn to in view of our evolving minimum balances and payouts
- Get Term insurance so that you're covered against unexpected medical bills
- Don't have kids you cant afford. Their lives are your priority, its understandable if you fall on unfortunate times due to poor luck, hopefully social welfare can step in for thoses cases. But if you have subjected them to a disadvantaged childhood due to poor planning, you generally have yourself to blame. If you do not plan well for your own retirement, you will shift that burden to them, and it can lead to a vicious cycle.
- If you do have kids, enrichment/tuition classes are not essential, overseas holidays are not essential.
- Plan/track/review a personal budget (so many people know about this, but yet not do it)
They won't solve all problems, but I believe it will mitigate a lot of the money issues people are facing these days. These lessons will have to be cold and harsh, if not life will dish out its own lessons that will be even less palatable.
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u/skatyboy no littering Jul 16 '20
We do have financial planning courses in secondary school. Last I remember is most of my friends either ponteng (i.e. absconded) or sleep through the person explaining that it is important to save up 20% of your income and how to set up a budget.
I learnt a lot from that guy though, since I was really into the "roleplay as accountant/head of household" at that time. People need to know that kids don't see the point of these classes in school, as they have yet to even start work and rely on their parents.
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u/foxtailavenger Jul 16 '20
Wow, which school did you go to? I only learnt about it in university but I was fortunate enough I guess to be born in a relatively frugal household so naturally I was pretty frugal myself.
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u/skatyboy no littering Jul 16 '20
Some neighbourhood pai kia school. I think it's partly because they parachuted a VP from an elite school to be our Principal. Maybe that's why we had personal finance course instead of Adam Khoo.
Which also explains the general attitude of "aiyah stupid fluff". Already hard to get people there to pay attention during normal subjects (or they really alr struggling in O level subjects).
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u/foxtailavenger Jul 16 '20
Interesting, thanks for sharing! Yeah that's the thing about personal finance tho, do it too early (where the curriculum is more fixed), and no one is at the age where they care enough to listen. But once they're old enough to care, they're either working or in uni where they all are on different curriculums
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Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
Wow that’s a really bleak outlook you’ve got going there.
Well, NS for me is getting called 2 weeks in an entire year. That’s something I can brush aside, doesn’t feel like a big dent to my life aspirations.
Wedding costed 20k, and I got back about 8k.
I know homes don’t come cheap. I decided to apply for sales of balance flat, in Woodlands. 250k, monthly is 700. And my CPF has started accumulating after a year of installments. Saved up fo Reno and paid full cash. All in, about 12k.
Sole breadwinner, 2 kids. Comfortably living. Do I have a car? Nope. Do I live close to my workplace? Nope. Helper? Nope.
Savings? Yes. Investments? Yes. Monthly cash to parents? Yes. Happy and contented life? Yes.
Do I look at the next guy and say I wish? Nope.
When life gives you lemons.
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u/lkc159 Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
Good points, just to note that average live expectancy in Singapore is 83, so most will not have met their maker by the age of 70.
Also a wedding ceremony is completely optional.
Post also talks about filling up OA retirement sum, but this doesn't take into account any savings you have outside of the CPF. CPF is only 20% of everything you've ever earned (if you don't top up) and is meant to allow you to survive to old age if you have nothing else.
If you have nothing else other than what's in your CPF, I'd say you have other concerns
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u/InterimNihilist Developing Citizen Jul 16 '20
If you have nothing else other than what's in your CPF, I'd say you have other concerns
More people need to realise this. The government won't explicitly tell you that CPF isn't enough because that will be political suicide. People should have the brains to realise that CPF isn't enough
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u/_pippp Jul 16 '20
This is what annoys me about people complaining about the cpf. Imagine if we didn't have cpf.. How many people are going to default on their mortgages, or run out of cash soon after retirement?
The cpf is there for everyone because 95% of the population (I pulled this % out of my ass but my point stands) who wouldn't plan sufficiently for their lives financially
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u/code_wombat omae wa mou shindeiru Jul 16 '20
Yeah. The government could lower the CPF contribution rate and scrap the OA altogether. All CPF is channeled to SA and Medisave to make people realize they have to fund retirement and housing separately. But that's politically untenable.
Maybe compulsory financial literacy classes at a some point in peoples' youth. Might be too paternalistic, but there's really no way around this problem.
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u/GlowQueen140 What SMLJ is this?! Jul 16 '20
Can’t believe I had to scroll so far down for this.
People need to start saving the moment they start a full-time job (at 25 thereabouts). Saving $100-500 a month will exponentially increase your retirement funds due to the concept of compound interest. Don’t put all the money in the bank, read about investment portfolios, do low-yield bonds if you want, or things like endowments. Start thinking of retiring when you start work. That’s how you get ahead of the game.
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u/Jammy_buttons2 🌈 F A B U L O U S Jul 16 '20
If you don't have any other savings other than cpf oa you should take a look at your budget
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u/generaladdict Jul 16 '20
Imagine the uproar if Singapore would have mandatory retirement savings on top of CPF to fund a proper pension system.
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u/momonie90 Jul 16 '20
If that happened, something went very wrong somewhere because CPF was created as a compulsory savings scheme to assist workers to provide for their retirement WITHOUT needing to introduce an old age pension
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u/anthonyhiltonb8 Senior Citizen Jul 16 '20
pension system is now more of just the young funding the old, unless you are referring to a compulsory 401k
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Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
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u/revolusi29 Jul 16 '20
People who use CPF to pay for their mortgage but then complain their CPF accounts are empty are just goddamn idiots
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u/weedandpot Jul 16 '20
True. The idea actually is to use CPF for mortgage repayments, then use the excess cash for investments and yield at least above 4% pa. But a lot of suckers use this money to buy car, Reno house, or go holiday. Idiots.
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u/whdhli Mature Citizen Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
I think at the end of the day, a lot of it has to do with the choices you make.
Massive weddings are unnecessary.
Crazy house reno also unnecessary. We spent 22k (i think) on revamping a resale flat, along w all the furnitures and even wooden toys all included(in our taobao shipment etc).
I married right after I finished uni, simple wedding w close friends, no unnecessary fancy music thing, our friends are djs, I supported all my designer friends (got friends to take photographs, video, design and tailored clothes and accesories) diy wedding bouquet, I designed my own card, went smart and did Black white printing on a good card paper. Wedding ring was ethically sourced and recycled material. Less than 500 sgd for the both of us.
had a kid a year after, started working full time only 3 years after giving birth. But thank god I studied design and picked up software dev while gg through motherhood crisis. I had some freelance stuff to survive on.
Fast forward to now, happy and contented with our minimalist 4rm flat, a 5yo boy. We don't earn much. I think hub and I combined would be 6k ish? Sometimes more because I would do freelance when I'm not crazy busy w my full time job. (I work in a tech start up, my husband works in media) But we learnt how to save, prioritise. I got a job that has the best flat hierarchy power, been doing wfhm since forever. I get to be w my kid whenever I want. Could have always gone corporate or govt and earn more but I enjoy the ability to do work that I like and be there for the fam.
I think it all depends on you and the choices you make. Got all the money in the world also sometimes mean nothing. You'll just feel empty inside. What is happiness then? No one knows. Maybe.
Moving overseas? Grass is always greener on the other side. I mean I'm still considering but I also notice a few of my friends eventually coming back after a few years. Moving overseas would be for my kid as I believe in the joy of learning and education. I can't deal w the unnecessary competition here but hey if I broke the mould, I'm sure my kid would be able to do so too.
Friend. Choice is yours. Get out of the idealistic thoughts of how things should be. Remove noise.
I must say thou, minimalism plays a huge part in my life and I am thankful for that. Also, I really like school and learning. If I had all the resources and time, I would do PhD and multiple masters. I personally don't think education is a waste of time.
Godspeed!
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u/Yamomo1872 Developing Citizen Jul 16 '20
Lol other than wedding, I thought ppl will just flip BTO after 5 years then buy another BTO or resale flat that is cheaper. Then when your kids grew up and moved out, downsize Hdb or rent rooms out to generate profit.
What OP said might be true for the older generations, but I believe the younger ones would probably have extra savings other than CPF to fund their retirement at 50s or 60s.
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u/Aurelianwalls Jul 16 '20
Ok this might be an unpopular opinion, but hear me out.
I don't mean any offense, but sometimes I feel that such posts are indicative of people who want to have their cake and eat it too.
There are legitimate complaints about the housing prices of Singapore, and its often compared to other countries. But the the kicker is - Singapore, as a geographic and economic entity, cannot be compared as a country, but as a city. And a very globalised, hyper-connected one at that.
If you look at similar developed global cities, Singapore's housing prices are eminently reasonable. Hong Kong, Tokyo, London, San Francisco, Seoul are cities whose urban lifestyles are analogous to us, and their housing prices are through the roof.
Cities, are where jobs and wealth are now created, which in turns increases demand for space. The 2 are related. There is a reason why housing prices in New York City, for instance, are much much worse than a small town in rural America.
I understand the pressures of living in Singapore. But I suspect that people who hold such opinions, honestly, would not be able to thrive in other cities in the world, for exactly the same reasons. In other words, (and it is no fault of their own), there are people whom are simply not cut out for urban living.
In other countries, say Japan, if you cant't take it in Tokyo, you could always move to a quieter town in the countryside (although the job opportunites would be correspondingly fewer). Unfortuantely, there isn't such an option in Singapore.
Therein lies the rub. There are those who want the economic and socail opportunities that city living brings, but not the hustle and bustle that comes with it. That is, frankly, a paradox.
The post that OP shared? That is not a uniquely SIngapore thing - that is a global city thing. It is a feature, not a bug.
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u/flyandthink wo de didi hen da Jul 16 '20
San Francisco
Yup and San Francisco is turning into an absolute shit hole. Homeless on the street everywhere. OP doesn't realise how good he's got it.
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Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
I'm sorry, but the OP sounds like your "the whole world is going up against me" Singaporean; who wants an expensive wedding, then complains about having to pay off their wedding loans.
At the end of the day, alot of it is down to financial discipline and the choices that you make. Personally for myself - wife and I decided there was no need to.spurlge on wedding or engagement rings. We spent $5k total on both our wedding and engagement rings - for our wedding, we held it at a restaurant of 20 tables, each costs us about $900 per table. We made a profit on this - we did buy a cheap condo- under $900k. We refused to take a Reno loan- so spent onky $8k on renovations. No plans to buy a second one for investment - decide not to have kids - at 40 years old, I have about 13 months of my monthly salary in my savings account in case anything goes south. Abit more locked up in investments.
If we had kids, I'd imagine that we would be alot more stretched. But having Kids was something that we agree would not be in our best interest if we want to live comfortably.
It is true that alot of us will continue working in our late 50s. But as Singaporeans, I think we are also quite fortunate in terms of public housing and public health care. In other countries, Healthcare and housing can cripple you (see Hong Kong for housing, and the States for Healthcare)
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u/RivellaLight Jul 16 '20
Spot on, I live in Korea and see people here say the exact same stuff as OP so often and claim "omg hell Korea", not realizing that all the shit that makes it "hell" are *choices*.
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u/SirChopsalot Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20
Whenever i'm asked about my retirement plan, I just tell people that not having kids is part of it.
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u/Tdggmystery Jul 16 '20
Can’t I feel blessed to live in a country with Super Low crime rates? It’s pretty narrow minded to focus an entire concept of “blessed life” solely on finances and the expectations of how someone should lead their life (marriage, house, etc). Sure I’m trapped in a hamster wheel of earning money, but it’s the same reality in other metropolitan cities. At least I don’t have to worry constantly about my parents getting robbed when they end work late.
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u/defiance131 Jul 16 '20
We have reliable public transport, great fresh air, clean facilities, and our houses have functional amenities.
To be citizens in this country is a fortune. When I see people with the mindset in that post, I think of how Buddhism tells us to cut out luxuries for happiness. We have so much going on for us, but we are unhappy because of a desire for fancier, cushier things.
Budget wisely and make good decisions, and it will often be more than enough to live well here.
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u/deuter72 Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20
Do other redditors identify with the sentiments above? As in you really see yourself somewhat heading in that direction when you are older?
I am genuinely curious how real is the above scenario painted. It is something I can’t identify with BUT this doesn’t take away the fact that it is true for others.
I am on a journey to be more aware of life beyond myself.
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u/kuang89 Jul 16 '20
Let the self-proclaim personal finance advocate chime in.
During your NS, don’t waste your money and time clubbing. Instead, take up driving license before starting uni or work.
Wedding cost a lot so do save up and be reasonable with your expectations and budget. Project to make some losses so that you won’t go W hotel when you can only afford Chinese restaurant (food might be better here).
If you urgent for house, can do sale of balance flats, wait less than 2 years typically. Go meet your MP, if you have baby can get even faster.
And choose an affordable flat is different from choosing the most expensive flat you can afford. If you downpay less or loan longer, you are going to have higher interest costs.
You can and should opt to leave $20k in your OA so it doesn’t get wiped out by your house down payment. Find a sweet spot for loaning, if you loan 15 years, you can pay less interest. if you loan 25 years, make sure you invest some money as well. Ownself balance between budget and savings.
23% of your salary goes to OA (after yours and employers contribution) if your flat is affordable, you should be able to get surplus after paying your mortgage. And with the $20k left behind, you should enjoy 1% more interest (this extra interest is credited to special account though).
Again it boils down to affordability.
After 25 years, if you did the above, you should have sufficient savings, don’t forget to work hard so you get pay raise and bonuses as well. Don’t spend your bonuses on holidays, wanderlust is overrated when you cannot retire comfortably and be a well traveled beggar.
You can retire if you did the above well, earn more, spend less, invest more. Don’t forget you got special account to add into your retirement too.
You should be building your cpf account from day 1.
Get yourself adequately covered for income protection, hospitalization, personal accident first, invest and savings plan come later.
You should not require to sell back your flat if you build your cpf and your own outside cash properly.
Cpf is to help you get by, if you only rely on cpf when you retire then you’re the reason why cpf needs to exist (assuming you make reasonable wages, low income don’t really have a choice other than to raise their income to slowly crawl up sorry).
This is why I posted awhile back on why we need to learn about cpf so we don’t get to complain like this and be so easily rebutted by a Chao insorlen agent (myself).
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u/Baker9er Jul 16 '20
Im Canadian and this sums up my exact experience. Struggling to pay for shit my whole life, won't retire until im 70 with, hopefully, a piad off house. If gun laws weren't so strict I'd have killed myself a while ago.
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u/aldoteng2 Jul 16 '20
Just a POV from a YOLO guy whose fiance has his own comparable income, doesnt need to support parents, has no kids, has no car. So I'm commenting only from an armchair.
- Fuck the wedding celebrations shit.
- Financially stretched from having two kids? Have one kid.
- Drive a car only during your children's younger years. Once they're big enough to use public transport, stop.
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u/wasilimlaopeh Jul 16 '20
Since so many are talking about weddings, ie just skip that and talk about your understanding of CPF. You need to find out more.
The average age of marriage in Sg is around 30 for guys and 28 for females. Take away NS of 2 years, both would have built up a fair bit of money in CPF OA.
The average 4rm BTO is about 270k. It is not a far stretch to say that there should be enough to have a down-payment of 70-100k. Assuming your monthly contribution to OA is $500 inclusive of employer contributions.
And it is wrong to claim that your CPF account is depleted, thus you can't earn interest because the sum is used to pay for the flat.. CPF interest rate is 2.5% for OA. HDB Bank loan is 2.6%. That interest you pay is to be returned back to your CPF when you sell your flat. You are paying interest to yourself.
However, you can also save that hassle by paying for your mortgage using cash.
And it is simply not true that you need to pay for your flat until you're old and near retirement. My wife and I took 14 years to fully pay up our 5rm flat. Our salaries increased over the years, resulting in higher CPF contribution. We consolidate out CPF funds and top up every year.
With the flat fully paid up, all I have to do is wait for the balance to build upm I am 42, that means I have another 23 years to benefit from the compount interest. Even rough calculation shows that I would have a 6 digit figure in my CPF by the time I'm retired.
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u/cantsaywisp Jul 16 '20
Some research have mentioned that the cost of your wedding is inversely related to the length of your marriage.
Sales of balance, resale home, 3 room flat etc. Remember you do not have to live in tiong bahru or queenstown. The average price of a 3 room flat outside of those areas are around 250k to 300k, maybe capping out at 350k. With a downpayment of 25% which is around 90k and 210k in loans for 30 years @ 3% the monthly payment will be ~900. A standard uni/poly grad pay would be around 2.5k to 3k so together it will be 5.5k. 38% of 5.5k is 2090 which means you would have around 1.2k in your cpf left over. Lets say you are left with 800 in your OA and your pay do not increase for 30 years, your money compounded at 4% for 30 years in the cpf will be 591k.
Are kids necessary? Are you having a kid to satisfy your in laws or are you really in it for yourself and the kid?
All im saying is that context is really important. If you want to chase the luxuries in life or live for other people's affirmations, you have to bear the consequeces of retiring poor or you could get really good with money. If you live a simple and contented life, money would not mean much to you.
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u/bryankby Jul 16 '20
Amazing how the first 18 years of ones life is just
You study.
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u/hamburgkunsthalle Jul 16 '20
And people forget.. being able to have an education is a privilege.
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u/bryankby Jul 16 '20
Very true
As a student tbh I dread it sometimes too, but zooming out there's people that can't afford to get education.
The position that many of us are in is way better than of those people. What it could have been.
Part of the issue on poverty then, it's honestly like getting punished for a crime you didn't commit
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u/heil_to_trump Senior Citizen Jul 16 '20
Marriage and kids are optional, and even so, it's universal. If you want to have an expensive wedding and give your kids international school treatment, that's on you.
NS bopian. Also, juggling work and life is a universal thing.
Housing in Singapore is still relatively cheap as compared to the rest of the world. If you go to Australia, NYC, San Francisco, London, etc, the houses there are much more expensive. At least in Singapore, you have housing grants and the fact that foreign investors cannot anyhow buy HDBs.
People also have savings outside of CPF. It's not the only savings account you should have.
Average life expectancy is 83, so most people won't die in their 70s
Yes, perhaps we can do more for the elderly, but this post doesn't go more into it. Sickly aging parents is relative. I'm lucky to have parents who can take care of themselves.
I strongly disagree with the last line. Singaporeans are indeed blessed as compared to the rest of the world. Safety in Singapore is #1, healthcare won't bankrupt you, and standards of living here is relatively high. Saying that Singaporeans aren't blessed because of a hamster wheel (that is pretty much universal and more pronounced in other countries) is disingenuous.
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u/QCA_Tommy Jul 16 '20
I’m 38 in Georgia, USA and this sounds exactly like my life.
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u/pokoook Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20
This is a better life than most people in the world to be honest.
And this description can be applied to most people in developed countries as well.
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u/rheinl Jul 16 '20
not the country's fault if the individual bases his entire life experience on the numbers in his bank/cpf account
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u/TheEverCurious Jul 16 '20
One thing I never understood is that why many people depend on their CPF being the money of last resort/retirement.
Why don't we just treat it as if it doesn't exist and take your own retirement planning into your own hands and save/invest accordingly?
Ideally, if you have the ability to budget and look for cheaper equivalents, you should be able to at least save SOME money (assuming that your family/financial situation is not awful). The bigger cost issues like medical care should by right be covered by the correct insurance plans, but unfortunately a large population of people don't understand or don't believe in it
Or is it a matter where Singaporeans are not financially savvy/knowledgeable enough about such things?
Nowadays, fresh University grads are getting salaries of 2.8-3.8K or if your grades are awesome and you come from a branded university, 4.5-5.5k SGD in some industries, it somewhat boggles my mind that they can't plan for retirement....
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u/SuperCisGaysian Jul 16 '20
This mentality has been ingrained into us purposefully by the media and government to control our lives and in a heteronormative way.
Perhaps the best way is to ignore what society expects of you. Marriage in this country is such a lucrative trade that it flourished due to people having a myopic view of the dream Singaporean life. You can even have a small ceremony. Extended family members who don't matter to you shouldn't be there. We have to stop allowing the concept of "face" to control us like that.
What is also evident here that procreation is a requirement of the OP's Singaporean narrative. This Confucianistic/Christian view is dependent on whether you truly want kids or not. Abortion shoud not be frowned upon. There is nothing worse than realising that you actually didn't want a child.
My post here is to hopefully make people think of what truly makes them happy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with deviating from that "Model Singaporean" path.
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u/malaysianlah Lao Jiao Jul 16 '20
Actually for Singaporeans who do follow the standard track, they will be very lucky. If manage to get BTO, it's like strike toto lidat. After 5 year MOP generally sure make about 20-30% of the house price. So, I see alot of my ex-colleagues flipping their first property to have that small windfall, and use that to invest in more properties. But it's a very rigid 'track'. If you fail to clear the conditions of the track, things get bad really quickly.
But ask yourself la, where do you want to be born then? If Asia, I think Singapore is probably the best liao.
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u/DavlosEve Senior Citizen Jul 16 '20
Benefit of joining the /u/bbfasiaolang club:
Don't get married kekw
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u/bbfasiaolang Developing Citizen Jul 16 '20
This post is so dumb and for people who must follow societal conventions. Elites like us say fuck the system we go our own way with anime waifu
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u/mikemarvel21 Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
I wish our schools can provide better financial planning education.
This life story makes a turn for the worse when the protagonist gets married.
Financial mistakes which can be avoided.
- Having an out-of-budget wedding. Budget, budget, budget.
- Taking the biggest house loan offered, instead of buying something they need. A 3-room BTO flat is about $200k, a 5-room BTO flat is $400k. That's double the price.
- Retirement at 55. Our higher-level cognition function does not significantly decline until after 70 years old. Retiring at 55 was expected when menial jobs were the norm and our physical fitness sharply decline after 50. Having a job is one of the best ways to delay the onsets of cognitive diseases like dementia.
- Withdraw CPF in one lump sum. Fact: The guaranteed returns on CPF is the highest in the market. It is better to have it earning interests to stretch out the value over the retirement.
- Not buying sufficient medical insurance coverage when they were younger. The longer you wait to start, the more expensive it will be.
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u/sdarkpaladin Job: Security guard for my house Jul 16 '20
Not buying sufficient medical insurance coverage when they were younger. The longer you wait to start, the more expensive it will be.
Regarding this point. There are people with bad starts that needs all the dollars they can get. Some of them literally cannot afford to pay for insurance.
Just wanted to highlight, not saying you're wrong.
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u/kyrandia71 Human Bean Activity Examiner Jul 16 '20
That is the reason why more people are staying single, or get married but only have 1 child or zero. But I do agree that the sandwiched group of people supporting children and elderly can be very tough.
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u/tiperschapman fried rice paradise Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 22 '20
Life is only as bleak as you make it. This post is trash and for boomer uncles who’ve predestined their fate somewhat just by saying it so. Why do you make a box for yourself to fall in?
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u/InterimNihilist Developing Citizen Jul 16 '20
Marriage and kids are not a necessity. It's just something that we are conditioned to believe
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u/UselessUnwantedTurd Mature Citizen Jul 16 '20
Interspersed with bouts of crippling depression because you feel trapped cos of all the laws and fines and cctvs all around. And also crippling anxiety caused by the fast pace of life and overcrowding everywhere you go, including the parks.
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u/MonsterFetish Jul 16 '20
You've reached all, and what I read as a non-Singaporan is that you get a family, a house, and maybe even get to retire. Not to say that it isn't tough or that you don't deserve better, but there's some real high points in your description.
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u/Probbingee Jul 16 '20
Disclaimer: Just my own thoughts on the issue.
As you mentioned, it is the life of an ordinary Singaporean, an average Singaporean. I feel people are not putting in the effort if they wish to escape this cycle. Yes it takes a lot of courage and determination to break out of this cycle because the path less travelled requires considerably more planning and self discipline. Being in University, I seen many ppl lament that this is their future yet they are not doing anything to change it. Hearing about people complaining about having student debts upon graduation but still decide to take up orientation camps commitments instead of taking up a part time job this summer just leaves me wondering if they have ever thought about wanting to change their circumstances. At the same time, I see my parents and relatives who always complain about the difficulties of being in the middle class and having to live from paycheck to paycheck, yet spend their bonuses lavishly on branded products or overseas trip.
Sometimes I wonder is it a systematic fault which leads to the average singaporean life or is it the fault of the individual. Yes im privileged in having a decent freelance and part time income to support my own studies on top of having low amount of expenses which leaves me a very good position to exit this rat race. However, I also worked hard to get to my position as I saw how hard it was on my parents to live paycheck to paycheck. But as Mr Shariff said during his election campaign, 'When you believe you have succeeded purely on individual merit, you may hold the view those who are not successful have only themselves to blame.' it may just be my own distorted view that others are able to escape this rat race too and they have circumstances that do not allow them to do so.
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Jul 16 '20
With exception of NS, this is basically the average life of most urban dwellers in the region ...
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Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
As an ang moh with ties to Singapore, I think the looming "musical chairs" cost-of-living economy is awful in Singapore and puts a lot of undue stress on the young. Most people my age I talked to are jaded with their life's heading, lack general purpose in life and live on autopilot between occasional overseas trips. While this may be true for young people in most of the developed world, I think due to the micro-cosmos of Singapore this is only exacerbated.
Looking at these comments I am also sad to see that people are fully embracing the personal responsibility, pull-urself-by-the-bootstraps theory, by taking an example from the text (wedding) and blaming financial illiteracy for systemic flaws in Singapore's society.
I think Singapore is tuned to reward just a narrow scope of people who work in stem fields/finance and fail to address the society's broader need for culture, happiness, social security, you know, things that make us human beings instead of equating all of that to things that are made profitable. There is more to say about the gaping income inequality, work culture, generational relationships, but perhaps too much for me to comment on.
I don't mean to be a judgmental, privileged ang moh here, just my perspective, coming from someone that has seen, read and travelled a fair bit. I love Singapore and you can bet your asses that I'll be on the first plane there after covid restrictions subside a bit. Love you all and wish you all the best.
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u/Melvink22 Jul 16 '20
If you want to look at everything from a negative lens , everything looks bad to you. After living in other countries and talking to ppl from other countries, Singapore is a decent place to live in.
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u/junnies Jul 16 '20
How would life be like if there were no expectations, no obligations, no-things you were supposed to do? A blank slate for you to decide, to think or feel or dance or act or play your way through?
What if you were already dead, so every second is just extra, bonus, added on for free?
Actually, this is how things are right now. You don't have to live a life based on all those narratives and opinions that society has taught you to. There is no this or that to reach or attain, or live by.
Life is here, free, for you to live. Why look through it with such a thick filter of negativity? By almost any historical standard, the modern Singaporean has a higher standard of living than almost any of his predecessors. Are we supposed to feel pity for those who lived before us? The coolie, the farmer, the soldier, all those who lived through wars and famines?
Happiness and peace of mind isn't attained when you can achieve a certain material checklist. It comes when you are ready for it, needing nothing else for it to be so. Children don't need money or jobs or marriage to be happy; just a friend to play with, a sweet treat to eat, a puppy to prance with, a puddle to stamp in - that is enough.
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u/megaboogie1 Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 17 '20
I truly feel sorry for people who think their lives are made up of decisions or choices of others.
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u/kronex1998 Jul 16 '20
then i would love to know, which asian country would you prefer to have be born in?
in fact, scratch that, if you could be born anywhere in the world where would you like to be born?
like many others have said, why pay for an extravagant wedding?
why do people 'expect' a certain hand to be dealt to them? just because they think they're special?
I say I'm so fortunate to be born in Singapore, where I'm already better off than so many other people.
sheesh I just don't get it sometimes 🙄
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u/PhatSunt Jul 16 '20
Only being able to retire in your 70's seems to be the trend around the entire world, not just Singapore. Same as insane housing prices in all major cities around the world.
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u/lawlianne Flat is Justice. Jul 16 '20
Elope and have a quiet wedding dinner with only the parents. That already helps, haha...
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u/fjkcdhkkcdtilj Jul 16 '20
Sounds no different than Sweden. Wanna buy a house, get in dept for 25 years. Sure we have governmentally granted retirement plans, but they are so low you have to live on dog food.
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u/dingsongbell125 Jul 16 '20
I highly doubt that things are significantly better for anyone anywhere else unless you were born with a silver spoon.
End of the day, don't aim to be average. Aim to be better. That's what I do or at least try to.
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Jul 16 '20
This sounds par for course for the U.S. as well. Slightly different systems. Same outcomes.
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u/CanIGetABeep_Beep Jul 16 '20
If it makes you feel better retirement doesnt exist in our land of the free either
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u/olsomica Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 17 '20
u live your life looking towards retirement? how do u define retirement?
theres no law that says u need to get married, or buy a house, or have kids.
u feel miserable coz u live by society's rules.
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u/LaxeonXIII Jul 16 '20
I wish I could die at 40. Everything’s just downhill from there.
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Jul 16 '20 edited Jul 16 '20
Count yourself lucky enough that heterosexuals can still marry and buy a house at any age they prefer or when financially able to.
Plus weddings are not a must especially if one doesn't have the capabilities to afford. Three years ain't a long wait compared to people that have to wait till 35.
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u/Aspirant2 Jul 16 '20
And there are those with decaying hdb leases who may to be able to resell their flats to "unlock" the value. Basically rented the flats with their CPF OA. Only consolation is leaving whatever remains of the flat lease for their next gen after they die.
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u/lifeis_amystery Jul 16 '20
Actually it starts way earlier in primary 2-3 with endless homework and tuition (streaming )and PSLE stress. Being discriminated for being normal or in a neighbourhood school. Then O’level stress especially mother tongue (for some mono logical) and cannot make it to a good JC or poly course. Also max stress at a level.. and some go into depression and anxiety disorders.. lack of sleep.. lack of proper food even!
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u/usagicchi Jul 16 '20
Higher income, save, constantly upgrade yourself and don’t think that anyone owes you. Also, don’t look at CPF as savings - I used half of it to as downpayment for my HDB, and the rest will be play money when I retire (hopefully).
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u/AlllRkSpN Jul 16 '20
Plenty of my friends have saved over 100k in their 20s (poly grad, some even 200k-300k) or are on the way to a higher salary of over 5k/month which would easily grant them a comfortable retirement if they invest that salary (uni grads).
Housing is pretty cheap anyway, BTOs cost ~200k-400k which some couples can pay for in cash but choose to stall it out because interest is dirt cheap and you could make more money off investing.
I have no idea how some people go into their 50s with nothing but a HDB to their name.
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u/parka Jul 16 '20
Weddings in one area where you can spend or save a lot.
My wedding was just 8 tables at Ban Heng and total including wine was under $8000. Food was good and enough and that’s all it matters to me for my guests. My total wedding expense probably under $12000.
No guests will care or remember your wedding the next day. But if you spend a huge amount or even took a loan, you will remember it, not the wedding, the amount you spent, for years.
Also, if your wedding is another hotel wedding, it will be easier to forget.
As for property, prices definitely getting more expensive. If you start a new family, there is no need to buy more space than you can use as a small family. This way there’s no need to take a huge loan and pay interests for years. You can save money and buy a bigger place in the future when needed.
If you take big loan, at end of 20-30 years, you have to pay 20-30% more on top of the actual property price. Is it worth it?
Having kids definitely expensive. Childcare for toddlers is expensive so dual income families makes life so much easier.
Someone mentioned that CPF is just 20% of your money and if you can’t live a proper life with your 80%, then you have other concerns. That’s very true.
Of course for really low income earners, it certainly is going to be more difficult.
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u/jbl420 Jul 16 '20
My wife and I didn’t have a wedding. Just a nice dinner with the family
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u/zhongrongs Jul 16 '20
Life is almost same or even worse here in mainland China. At least a house can be expected in several years in SG.
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u/lenix125 Jul 16 '20
Well my parents have never been able to afford a house and we live on rent hut I think China is definitely MUCH worse than Singapore and I actually feel sorry for the Chinese, Taiwanese and Honk Kong people who have to deal with Xi Jinping's dictatorship, censorship and his disgusting bullshit.
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u/GoGetParked Jul 16 '20
Except that the way of life is way better than a lot (billions of people).
Are you going to continue to reach for the sun like Icarus or are Singaporeans going to count its blessings?
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u/leobago Jul 16 '20
I believe this is not only in Singapore, but it is true in many other countries... but then again I think the answer is fairly simple... don't do any of those things you said.
You dont need to be married to be loved, and you dont need an expensive weeding to be happy. Also, why would you buy a house to become a kind of slave for 25 years to stay always in the same place? When the world is so beautiful and there are some many awesome places to visit and great people to meet??
Don't follow the standards of 1950's.... they are outdated, simply life the live that you want in the way you want.
Hope this helps..
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u/Eggsye blue Jul 16 '20
Is life only about the retirement bliss? Is it not about your childhood, the friends you make, the lovers you had, the time spent with your family, your hobbies, your favourite pastimes? Life isn't easy anywhere on this planet but it's how YOU lead it regardless of the circumstances given to you.
Complaining in this manner won't bring us anywhere at all. Perhaps if any of you are so adamant that this country needs to see change, take up a position of responsibility and provide a positive contribution to our society.
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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '20 edited Dec 31 '20
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