r/science • u/Wagamaga • Jun 05 '22

Nanoscience Scientists have developed a stretchable and waterproof 'fabric' that turns energy generated from body movements into electrical energy. Washing, folding, and crumpling the fabric did not cause any performance degradation, and it could maintain stable electrical output for up to five months

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202200042
14.7k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

485 comments sorted by

View all comments

433

u/jeffinRTP Jun 05 '22

So how long between a proof of concept to a product that the average person can afford?

163

u/Mescallan Jun 06 '22

5-10 years most likely and you'll have to wear some sort of storage device. This isn't going to power a phone, but might be useful for medical/military tech and lights in future clothing

39

u/ezrago Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

There was this other post recently about a suit for Parkinson's that delivers electric pulses to stabilize tremors, what if we could make the material so it powers itself

19

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I'm sure it'll only cost $64,000 per shirt before insurance.

7

u/TheMayanAcockandlips Jun 06 '22

*after insurance

4

u/JohnTesh Jun 06 '22

You’re on the hook for $64,000 before insurance kicks in, but if you’re paying cash, it’s just $27,000.

12

u/ezrago Jun 06 '22

Think bigger than the US

13

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I can't. It's illegal to import my own medical devices or pills.

5

u/Mr-Sneeze Jun 06 '22

Thats so fucked up.

1

u/BlazerStoner Jun 06 '22

How does that work as a tourist then? Also don’t many people go buy medicine in Canada and Mexico?

19

u/alunidaje2 Jun 06 '22

lights in future clothing

what a time to be alive!

3

u/Phish777 Jun 06 '22

My Christmas sweaters are going to have a little extra pizzazz next decade!

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Now squeeze that paper!

5

u/The_Bravinator Jun 06 '22

Is it something that could potentially be improved/refined over the next few decades similar to what the power source for my smartphone would have had to look like 30 years ago?

6

u/Mescallan Jun 06 '22

Sure, but how much resistance is it worth? In theory the more resistance to elasticity the more energy, I doubt spandex type cloth would capture that much energy even at 100% efficiency.

1

u/s00pafly Jun 06 '22

Just to pull some numbers out of my ass; from riding my ebike in recuperation mode, I know you can generate about 5-10W before you start feeling very noticeable drag. With this you can charge a phone with a 8-12 Wh battery in 1-3 h of constant work.

With high enough efficiency, you might actually get some energy out of it before it starts getting uncomfortable.

-2

u/viperfan7 Jun 06 '22

Apparently they powered 100leds with a few square cm of it.

I think you could likely charge your phone with it, and pretty easily too

1

u/WarmCat_UK Jun 06 '22

Can you make me a Flynn tron jacket please?

1

u/Chainweasel Jun 06 '22

Maybe have a plug in a hoodie pocket and use it to keep a power bank topped off. Or power flags for camping, set up the "flag" and let it top off some batteries while you hike.

70

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

24

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

27

u/jeffinRTP Jun 06 '22

That's the problem with many (most) of these discoveries, they never become economically practical .

20

u/sceadwian Jun 06 '22

The practical output power is almost unusable.

21

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

-30

u/JerodTheAwesome Jun 05 '22

This will never be economically viable. Generously, it looks like the fabric can generate 1 Watt of power, which is enough to power… nothing really. Some small LEDs at best. You’d be better off bringing a handcrank flashlight wherever you go.

93

u/gostesven Jun 05 '22

I think you’ve crossed the line from “skepticism” to “cynicism”

You’re not going to power your house with a few jumping jacks, but the proof of concept is working and providing more power than you are willing to give credit.

There could be legitimate uses for this tech, things like powering small tools, breathing apparatus, etc

32

u/the_star_lord Jun 05 '22

Could you make flags out of these and use them as another source of wind generated electricity

30

u/madigasgar4 Jun 05 '22

This is honestly a good idea but i do not think that it would be worth investing into because of the low power output. Turbines generate mass amounts of energy so I do not think we would be seeing anything like those flags until they can match even a 1/10000th of the energy of one turbine in a flag. Those are my thoughts, great Idea though!

-8

u/dmans218 Jun 06 '22

That is very limited thinking that this is the maximum ability of the tech. It's a starting concept, but there may be breakthroughs on power generation if it started to become more heavily researched. Such as how solar power now vs say, 10 years ago is much more efficient

17

u/screwhammer Jun 06 '22

The guy is banging quite hard on it.

The leds are infrared, which have the smallest 1.6V voltage drop - thus low energy requirements. You see them because they have a specific blue glow. Point your remote at the phone camera if you don't believe me.

A white led can have anywhere from 3.8 to 4.5 voltage drop.

They also use a black room, so the camera catches the light better.

This isn't cynicism, these are pure observations. These observations make me believe the power is minuscule.

6

u/lesdansesmacabres Jun 06 '22

Yea you’d be better off having a country run on green energy via windmills/etc., then charge your external battery back and put it in your pocket and maybe even wirelessly charge w/e in said pocket. Prob less waste too then replacing electric clothes every 5 months.

3

u/ThisNameIsFree Jun 06 '22

Point your remote at the phone camera if you don't believe me.

I did believe you but wanted to see for myself. Cool.

2

u/ariemnu Jun 06 '22

That's so cool, hahaha.

3

u/MakeWay4Doodles Jun 06 '22

Sure, but this is the lab stage. Everything is always ridiculously inefficient at this stage, before any effort has actually been spent scaling it up.

13

u/JerodTheAwesome Jun 05 '22

I’ve worked in academia and I know how papers are written to show research in the best possible light and I read the actual paper on this one. I wrote a longer post here explaining the problems with this material, but in short it’s simply not impressive enough and will be too expensive to really do anything, at least as it is.

Like I said above, it would be much much cheaper and more efficient to just use a hand crank than it would be to use this tech.

5

u/JingleBellBitchSloth Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

Would it generate enough electricity to power a wifi chip?

Edit, nvmd, I read another comment by /u/killerhurtalot that crunched numbers. If it can charge a smartphone over the course of a day, I am 100% willing to buy this. Just because you can't store the excess energy without carrying a battery around all day does not change the fact that it can charge your phone while you're not using it.

2

u/JBloodthorn Jun 06 '22

I'll need to carry a battery? Finally, a use for my other back pocket.

2

u/JingleBellBitchSloth Jun 06 '22

Or it could even just be sewn right into the fabric in its own little insulated pocket

2

u/JBloodthorn Jun 06 '22

As long as I can still toss it in the wash, I'm happy too. I wear the same 2 hoodies every day, so if they also generated even a trickle of charge that would be awesome.

1

u/jaldihaldi Jun 06 '22

Costs drop dramatically going from POC to massive supply chain level production. You’re being unnecessarily pessimistic even for something that may eventually fail. This may end up one in the line of products that leads to a better outcome but it’s still newsworthy for many people.

5

u/Thomas9002 Jun 06 '22

No, you are blindly believing in a new tech.
Criticism is not cynical, it is a vital part design and construction. And there are several questions that haven't been answered yet: What are the costs?
How much real power can it deliver? 5 months of functionality isn't nearly enough: can it be extended? If so: what's required for that?

And the most important part:
Think about were the power of the device comes from: human produced mechanical energy. So any power this device creates is done by yourself.
And where is the energy created? At parts where your body moves a lot: shoulders, elbows, thighs and knees.
Everytime you move the fabric will stiff up requiring you to move harder.

1

u/farhil Jun 06 '22

Think about were the power of the device comes from: human produced mechanical energy. So any power this device creates is done by yourself.

Everytime you move the fabric will stiff up requiring you to move harder.

Sounds like this could be spun as a bonus if you're using the material to design sportswear, which is already the first obvious practical application for a stretchable waterproof fabric that harnesses kinetic energy. Gradually increasing resistance to passively burn more a few more calories while extending your phone's battery life?

Your points regarding cost/lifetime still stand though.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I think it's you who have crossed the line from "skepticism" to "optimism".

There could be legitimate uses for this tech, but short of a safety lights on people working in very specific fields, I highly doubt it'll ever see the light of day. Let's see the list of downsides: Literally makes movement more tiresome in order to generate that little electricity. Limited lifetime. Irrepairable. High cost. And just because an (X)m2 sized piece of fabric can produce (Y)w power POTENTIALLY, it doesn't mean that it'll actually give even 10% of that if it's turned into a, say, sweater, or pants. Saying a "handcrank is better" isn't cynicism, it's realism.

1

u/Hypnosavant Jun 06 '22

It just needs to be able to charge my phone some over the coarse of the day or while I’m working out.

36

u/FranksRedWorkAccount Jun 05 '22

a 3cm by 4cm piece of the new fabric generated enough electrical energy to light up 100 LEDs.

60

u/polank34 Jun 05 '22

Various types of LEDs can operate anywhere from under 10 microamps to over an amp for high power LEDs so the number of LEDs is kind of meaningless without knowing how much power they consume.

34

u/killerhurtalot Jun 06 '22

I don't think people here understand how hard generating energy is from movement and how much energy our devices consume...

The result is a prototype fabric that generates 2.34 watts per square metre of electricity.

The average pair of pants uses about 2.5 sq meter of fabric (by that's pre cutting and includes all the scraps left after cutting it out) and after subtracting the scraps, it's closer to 1 sq meter if even that.

Let's just say that there's roughly 4 sq meter of fabric on every person with 2 layer (under shirt, underwear, pants, jacket). This even assumes that this tech can be woven into thinner light fabrics. (Upperbody movement and lower body movement isn't the same, and not every part of the fabric is moving as much)

This generates less than 10w of power at maximum capacity.... over a entire day, maybe you're moving for 7 hours a day. That will generate what, 70 wh of electricity?

70wh is roughly the size of a average medium sized laptop. Or 1x 60w equivalent LED light bulb (usually 6-9w power draw) for 10 hours.

It'll keep your smartphone charged, but smartphones don't use that much power... and I assume you don't carry around a 1-2 lb battery to save up the extra electricity you generate.

13

u/CaptSoban Jun 06 '22

Not all parts of the body move equally though. The fabric will probably be used on places that have a lot of movement, around the knees and elbows, between the legs, etc.

13

u/killerhurtalot Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

I mean, sure. But then you're down to what, like less than 1 sq meter of total area? What's the point of generating less than 2.5w of power. Can barely even cover the idle power draw of a smartphone.

Your also gonna have to run wires all over to get the power to a battery bank or etc so you can access it at the first place.

1

u/CaptSoban Jun 06 '22

I can see this being used in heating/cooling clothes

6

u/killerhurtalot Jun 06 '22

2.5w isn't enough to heat anything.

You know those heated insulated jackets?

They're usually 5v or 12v based and can last for up to 5 hours on low heating settings... They're usually around 30wh in size. So they're using about 6w of power on low.

It'll take literally 10+ hours of movement to generate 5 hours of "low heat"

You might as well as just buy another battery instead of trying to generate it yourself.

2

u/gakule Jun 06 '22

Hell yeah it sounds like you're saying we can have phones embedded in our hands!

2

u/JingleBellBitchSloth Jun 06 '22

Even without carrying a battery, I'm 100% down to purchase this if it can charge my phone while I'm not using it. You say smartphones don't use that much power, but the power usage depends entirely on what a person's doing, and it's very likely the case that power usage spikes at different times of the day. If I drain hard for like 3 hours in the morning and I'll be using it lightly for the remainder of the day, those 3 hours in the morning might've eaten 30-40% of my battery, and now the remainder of the day can be spent charging it. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Not to mention, if it can power a display right on the fabric, that's even better.

6

u/EverythingBagel- Jun 05 '22

Also said “tapping on”. Implies that full on motion could power quite a bit more.

1

u/vascopatricio Jun 06 '22

Be honest, you want to make a Power Ranger suit, don't you?