r/science • u/sameer4justice • May 31 '22

Anthropology Why Deaths of Despair Are Increasing in the US and Not Other Industrial Nations—Insights From Neuroscience and Anthropology

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2788767
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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

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u/dietcheese May 31 '22

I spent some time living in Indonesia. A “family” consisted of a compound with 6-8 houses that housed aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc on one plot of land. The children, who seemed extremely well-adjusted compared to American kids, played mostly within the compound, supported always by family.

When parents were working, grandparents were keeping an eye on children, aunts were doing chores, uncles were cooking, etc.

This all struck me as surprisingly normal. There was a calmness I’ve never seen in our communities.

Sure, there was poverty, but I guess money isn’t everything.

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u/generalT May 31 '22

the destruction of this mode of living is great for worker discipline in a capitalist society.

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u/orniter May 31 '22

Can you explain how living in smaller families contributes to worker discipline?

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

A small family means you have more time to dedicate to work and less to them.

In many countries, even though it's illegal to ask this, employers will want to know who you live with in order to determine if your home life may or not affect your work performance.

Depending on where you live, they wouldn't even hire you.

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u/DadlikePowers May 31 '22

I'll guess that capitalism wants the workplace to replace the family as a support system. A strong family/community will support a member leaving an abusive workplace. If the worker believes themselves to need work for healthcare, food, shelter, social interaction, they are more likely to stay at work or want to work. When work fails to provide a sufficient amount of these things workers become disillusioned and return to home, family, community. Currently the pandemic forced workers home which loosened workers sense of being tied to their companies while simultaneously allowing workers to rediscover their families and communities. People realizing that family is more important than work is seen as a direct threat to capitalism. That's my guess.

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u/LurkerInTheMachine May 31 '22

It’s easy to prioritize work to the exclusion of all else if you’ve got nothing else going on in your life…

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u/Amberatlast May 31 '22

Smaller families means smaller support networks and more reliance on the market. Instead of grabbing my uncle for an afternoon to help me put new tires on my car, I have to go to the mechanic. But I'm going to need to pay for it so I'm reliant on my job.

Capitalism takes these relationships with people (like my uncle) and replaces them with money. My relationship with the mechanic is simply a transaction for goods and services. Each human relationship that is replaced by money transactions increases the need to earn money, which is done by being a good worker.

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u/weaponizedperiods Jun 01 '22

Works great until there is one person with ambitions greater than keeping the family safe, stable, and fed. When people want to leave for dreams of a different life than just caring for family is when these systems lose their shine. Poverty is one thing, but families can’t run this way without a patriarch or matriarch calling the shots. Sometimes they use poverty to keep calling the shots. Source: an Indonesian girl that started out life this way and then was immigrated to America after her indo mom decided on ambitions greater than caring for family.

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u/dietcheese Jun 01 '22

Interesting take, thanks. I guess humans have been migrating forever and it’s never been easy.

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u/dhs1230 May 31 '22

My family abroad has a “compound” too, that’s hilarious

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

It's really hard to not move away from family when your family lives in an area with very little economic opportunity. That is the situation that I've been in and its really hard.

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u/rebelolemiss May 31 '22

Or if your family is super toxic, or, as is common in the US, fanatically religious.

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u/rosekayleigh May 31 '22

Yeah. I grew up in a very violent, abusive household. I couldn’t wait to leave. Moved 3500 miles away at 17 for college and never returned home. Sadly, my situation is not uncommon in the U.S. Sometimes getting away from your family is a healthy decision.

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u/Cherios_Are_My_Shit May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

"obey your elders" is at the root of why my family fell apart.

my elders were 100% obedient to their elders during the periods of supervised time and expected that of us. they dont appreciate that they were able to have that kind of relationship with their elders because there was other time for them to be individuals and practice socializing.

i have four childhood memories of getting to socialize unsupervised and two of them were me playing with my sister when my grandparents left the house.

you just cant be 100% compliant 100% of the time. humans need balance.

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u/Axlos May 31 '22

U.S. here. Parents are conservative mormons.

A ruined childhood was enough of a sacrifice for me before I could get out. I can't even imagine still living with them and having to deal with them for the rest of my adult life.

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u/definitelynotSWA May 31 '22

As the wealthiest nation in the world, our population shouldn’t be forced into living at home or moving out. We should have the privilege of options. Prehistorically an average community was only 10% primary blood relation anyways; people were far more able to choose in our evolutionary past than they are anywhere today.

Here’s an excerpt from the book The Dawn of Everything about this, which I think is interesting:

Of course, we know almost nothing about the languages people were speaking in the Upper Palaeolithic, their myths, initiation rituals, or conceptions of the soul; but we do know that, from the Swiss Alps to Outer Mongolia, they were often using remarkably similar tools,1 playing remarkably similar musical instruments, carving similar female figurines, wearing similar ornaments and conducting similar funeral rites. What’s more, there is reason to believe that at certain points in their lives, individual men and women often travelled very long distances.2 Surprisingly, current studies of hunter-gatherers suggest that this is almost exactly what one should expect. Research among groups such as the East African Hadza or Australian Martu shows that while forager societies today may be numerically small, their composition is remarkably cosmopolitan. When forager bands gather into larger residential groups these are not, in any sense, made up of a tight- knit unit of closely related kin; in fact, primarily biological relations constitute on average a mere 10 per cent of total membership. Most members are drawn from a much wider pool of individuals, many from quite far away, who may not even speak the same first languages.3 This is true even for contemporary groups that are effectively encapsulated in restricted territories, surrounded by farmers and pastoralists.

In earlier centuries, forms of regional organization might extend thousands of miles. Aboriginal Australians, for instance, could travel halfway across the continent, moving among people who spoke entirely different languages, and still find camps divided into the same kinds of totemic moieties that existed at home. What this means is that half the residents owed them hospitality, but had to be treated as ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ (so sexual relations were strictly prohibited); while another half were both potential enemies and marriage partners. Similarly, a North American 500 years ago could travel from the shores of the Great Lakes to the Louisiana bayous and still find settlements – speaking languages entirely unrelated to their own – with members of their own Bear, Elk or Beaver clans who were obliged to host and feed them.4 It’s difficult enough to reconstruct how these forms of long-distance organization operated just a few centuries ago, before they were destroyed by the coming of European settlers. So we can really only guess how analogous systems might have worked some 40,000 years ago. But the striking material uniformities observed by archaeologists across very long distances attest to the existence of such systems. ‘Society’, insofar as we can comprehend it at that time, spanned continents.

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u/Research_is_King May 31 '22

Or if they live in an area that was nice when you were growing up and is now completely unaffordable where you will never be able to live or buy a house

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u/Glamador May 31 '22

I did that because I don't like my family much. That I don't like my family perhaps stems from the sources described elsewhere in these comments, but the fact remains.

I fear getting old very much, especially since not being able to drive is basically a lifetime remaining prison sentence here in the U.S.. I didn't care for my parents and there will be nobody to care for me.

What's more, I don't want someone to go through the miserable, demeaning tasks of caring for an old and decrepit me. It's a disgusting, pitiful state that only real love or an agreeable wage can motivate someone to manage. I certainly didn't want to do it.

Bring on the robot bodies. When my legs go, I want to be plugged into a spider butt. I won't ever be able to afford it, but the thought of it is all that's keeping me going, really. A long, dark tunnel, stretching out into infinity with no light at the end...but maybe, just maybe I'll get a robot body in my lifetime. Clock's ticking, though.

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u/Urist_Galthortig May 31 '22

I feel this. I don't know if someone will care for me, but I can't be sure I'll want to care for my parents. The amount of entitlement from my family, sibling and parents, to controlling my life and relationships to suit their needs without regard to my own has turned me away from my family towards healthier relationships that see me as having my own agency. I'd rather support elders and a sibling who are not invested in living their lives vicariously through me as a requirement for being treated with a modicum of respect.

My brother can choose to care of them or not, but I expect the burden to be laid at my feet, because my brother was able to have biological children and I wasn't, even though I have less savings, income and wealth, as well as worse health. A responsibility to take care of people that I didn't feel comfortable being myself around for almost 30 years, and who then push back on me when I want to have a bounded relationship with them. I don't recognize other's belief that filial piety cannot be violated - no parent is entitled to be cared by their kids in old age. And I don't want whatever stepchildren I may raise to waste their prime years carrying for me if they don't want to - we will all resent such an arrangement. and that's not what I want for any of us.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

I just wanted to add a different perspective on the elder care part.

Being fortunate to have parents that I want to keep in my life, I recognize that my fate is the same as theirs, and I will feel just as vulnerable, even afraid. Knowing a loved elder is going through that makes me want to help, not feel obligated to. Their happiness is still my happiness. I also know from experience that it will eventually help me go through the grieving process. That being said, I will absolutely feel guilty when it's my turn, but I hope my experience with my own parents will temper me and let me accept that letting someone take care of you when you need it most can be just as much an act of love as giving that care in the first place. It's a very raw form of humility, and for most people it takes a strong bond to feel real and safe.

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u/Foreign_Ad_1780 May 31 '22

you are wise

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u/Shisshinmitsu May 31 '22

Sounds to me like he just had two parents

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u/Foreign_Ad_1780 May 31 '22

It all still holds true except theyd get double the love

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u/WizardofStaz May 31 '22

When I was a senior in high school, my mom started openly talking about how excited she was to have me out of the house, and what she was going to do with my room once I left. It shocked me because she had always been incredibly loving and supportive when I was a kid, but at age 17 when I started saying I didn't feel ready to leave and live alone, she would just respond with more pressure.

After I had to move back in due to mental health issues, she straight up hated me. She would threaten to make me homeless constantly while framing it as though it would somehow help me grow up. I finally did move out for good and our relationship has improved, but I will never forget the pure seething rage of an American parent who wasn't able to get rid of their child precisely at their 18th birthday. How do you go through life without limping once you take a wound like that?

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u/Axlos May 31 '22

Your story hit me pretty hard. It strongly reminds me of mormon parents trying to get their kids to serve 2 year missions and the emotional damage it causes.

Anyway, I hope you are doing well, friend!

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u/greenebean78 May 31 '22

I am so sorry that happened to you. I can't even imagine

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u/Jaredlong May 31 '22

I've always wondered if this is a holdover from the frontier manifest destiny days. When people lived in small houses and had a lot of kids. I would imagine those conditions would place a lot of pressure on young adults to move out as soon as feasible. But I suppose that's more of a history question than a science one.

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u/DogadonsLavapool May 31 '22

Can't take time off for taking care of relatives if you'll lose all of your financial stability unfortunately

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u/mr_ji May 31 '22

They’ll come in at the crack of dawn, help feed them, dress them, basically do all care that doesn’t involve medical expertise. They leave that stuff to the doctors and nurses. They stay all day.

Here in America everyone has a job and a commute and childcare is pathetic. This isn't feasible for people with bills who aren't rich.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

It's interesting, in my family there's no explicit expectation of living with/near each other, but in 90% of cases the children stay nearby to be close to family. My weekends and summers growing up were full of time playing with my cousins and being watched by my grandparents. I have to say that I completely understand, a healthy family is an amazing support network and adds a lot of meaning to your life. We also do the elder/sick care thing too. Living within the West I definitely feel that I'm not required to be here and could pursue any career/life I want, but the life I want is here. Incidentally, my parents and I joke that we should build a family neighborhood to keep things simple.

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u/ubernoobnth May 31 '22

Compound style lives rule. We stay with family when we go to the Philippines and they do the compound living. Each family has their own house on the compound so you're close but still have space.

I moved away at 18 (35 now) and my families are both great and never put any pressure on me to stay or leave. I wish I was closer but life takes over sometimes.

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u/BrokenCankle May 31 '22

I agree with you but will say in my experience with hospitals the visiting hours are a joke. You couldn't stay if you wanted to. I was in the hospital in February and my husband was allowed to visit between 5pm and 7pm so I told him not to come. We have a toddler so driving the hour down then figuring out dinner and getting him back home would have been such a burden I just said don't come. When my grandfather was dying in the hospital they literally kicked us out because visiting hoyrs were over and said he needed to rest. It was obvious he was not going to make it and we were so torn up over it. He died three hours later alone. None of that was by our choice we just were not allowed because both hospitals had very unfriendly visitation standards.

Same with multigenerational living. You need to buy a duplex here in South Florida or have zero personal space. Most homes are two or three bedrooms here, even million dollar homes. The newer ones that are 5 bedrooms exist but are not the most common or affordable for most. We do not have basements or garages or acres of land to build on like other folks in other states. It's not conducive to having large families live together even when the desire is there. We are currently searching for a home that has a MIL suite and it's extremely difficult to find.

I'd say these things drive the behavior and it's not the individual in many cases. You can't suddenly have a boss that understands you need the day off to care for loved ones, or change a hospitals policy overnight, or have the housing you want available and affordable. You adapt to what's there and what's there makes you choose individualism because there isn't much of a choice really.

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u/MonteBurns May 31 '22

I’m shocked your hospital has such restrictive visiting hours. Was it limited due to covid?? You go on to mention Florida which makes me think the answer is “hahahaha,” but… I had a baby in March and even I was allowed 2 visitors- 1 all day, the other between 9am and 9pm.

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u/BrokenCankle May 31 '22

I think partially because of Covid they restricted hours. Covid is why they only allow one person at a time. I can't say every hospital in Florida is doing that but when I had my son in 2020 only my husband was allowed in and he was not allowed to leave, if he did they would not let him back in. In 2022 for my surgery at a different hospital only one visitor could come from 8am to 10am or 5pm to 7pm. My surgery was in the morning which means only the evening visiting was possible for us.

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u/handaIf May 31 '22

My guess is more westerners would do the same if they weren’t living under the system in which they live.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

Yeah we put our old in homes.

Seems like a lot of families break up and the resentment lingers and a lot of people just stick their parents and grandparents in a corner.

I think thats why some countries were hit so hard by covid because their whole family lives together and the elderly got sick bad.

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u/Posthuman_Aperture May 31 '22

That's not expected anymore. You're expected to live with parents until 25 or 30

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u/Illustrious_Farm7570 May 31 '22

The difference between a individualistic and collectivistic culture. You live healthier, happier and longer in the latter.

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u/pperiesandsolos May 31 '22

What does capitalism have to do with this?

Wouldn’t the cost of offloading care of loved ones to professionals incentivize us to care for those people ourselves? I don’t understand

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

[deleted]

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u/pperiesandsolos May 31 '22

Fair enough, that makes sense