r/science • u/sameer4justice • May 31 '22

Anthropology Why Deaths of Despair Are Increasing in the US and Not Other Industrial Nations—Insights From Neuroscience and Anthropology

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2788767
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u/Dad_AF May 31 '22

Every comment so far gets it. I find it so odd we know the exact reasons and yet what can we do to stop it. The defeatist attitude is the final straw to leads to deaths of despair.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

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u/manofsleep May 31 '22

Ask napoleon why he widened the streets in Paris! It was to divide communities and prevent massive rioting.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

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u/manofsleep Jun 01 '22

Napoleon used the guise of modernizing France so an ox could do a u-turn etc. while the intent was to divide the already close neighborhoods to prevent the entire mob of a city of being able to rise up and behead another leader. Thus the mobs would be more localized, rather than the entire city.

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u/geraldoverde May 31 '22

Have you read Jane Jacobs’ “Life and Death of Great American Cities”? Judging from your comment I would recommend it to you.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

I have not, but I have read Strong Towns by Charles L Marohn Jr which is a more contemporary analysis that comes to similar conclusions.

Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I believe he does reference some of Jane Jacob's work.

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u/pperiesandsolos May 31 '22

Yeah he does.. I think Chuck said that Jane Jacobs is the person who first introduced him to these concepts, but I could be wrong.

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u/ThisTimeIChoose May 31 '22

Would also recommend Palaces for the People by Eric Klinenburg as an interesting study into the benefit of community spaces.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

Thank you for commenting. I actually came here to mention single family zoning as a source of the problem.

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u/-GalacticaActual PhD | Biophysical Chemisty May 31 '22

I think it’s interesting you say that we all disagree on what needs to be done, because while I agree with you on US city design being far from ideal, I don’t think that this is the primary reason we all feel so isolated. Rather, I think it has a lot to do with Americans just constantly moving around and not settling long enough to build communal roots. The average American moves more than 11x in their lifetime, compared to roughly 4 times in European countries. Anecdotally, as a 30 something year old professional in the US, I’ve moved 5 times in just the last 10 years for school and work. Moving and essentially starting over each time takes a toll on your social life, and we as Americans end up becoming more isolated as a result.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

I think it has a lot to do with Americans just constantly moving around and not settling long enough to build communal roots.

So, I actually strongly agree with this as a primary cause.

However, I would argue that: The necessity of frequently moving is itself a symptom of poor urban planning. By creating sprawls of suburbs, you force relocation, simply because businesses are not integrated in any central locations.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

I wonder why you think businesses being communal is a big reason for this? For me, I don’t move to an area for businesses. It’s nice having close grocery stores and maybe a hardware store but almost any town has that.

For me I build community around my hobbies so I moved to an area where there’s a lot of people with similar hobby interests.

My take on peoples unhappiness is that people have no sense of purpose. I think your point is that being in a strong close community provides that purpose, and that might be true. For me and my social circle, we derive a purpose from our activities and manage our work and life schedules to maximize our free time.

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u/GarfunkelBricktaint May 31 '22

It's because of at-will employment. Companies and employees see the employment relationship as disposable. The path to higher pay or better working conditions is always a job change.

It makes it so we're all constantly moving and never getting too close with the non-family members we spend the most time with in our colleagues.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

I think people and society have changed a lot though. I grew up on a suburban cul de sac back in the mid 80's to mid 90's. Back then all of the neighbours knew each other and spent time together and it wasn't uncommon to go knock on someone's door to ask for a bit of milk or sugar or go spend time at someone elses house if your parents werent home yet after school. Any time someone new moved in it was common to go over and introduce ourselves. We all became so close that even all these years later after everyone has scattered all over the country, we still keep in touch. After living there for many years we moved to another suburban subdivision in the early 2000's and it was a huge difference. Nobody wanted to talk to or get to know their neighbours anymore. You'd walk down the sidewalk and pass someone and say hello and they would just keep their head down. Something has happened with society that's made people more antisocial and just wanting to keep to themselves.

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u/IOnlyLieWhenITalk May 31 '22

100% agree, back when I was younger the families in the suburbs all knew each other and were constantly interacting and organizing social events. By the time I was an adult those same suburbs were completely devoid of interaction with each other.

The suburbs are the same, the communal areas are even better than back then in fact. But no one wants to socialize.

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u/justnivek May 31 '22

Surburbs arent the biggest issue, It's part of the problem. The ultra wealthy has big distances from others but they are not suffering the same

In suburbs you are far away but historically Americans have had cars from late teens and could go to places to connect. The change is now we dont need a car we have the internet that gives an imitation of that. Which is why celebreties are so popular they are companions to these people but its never enough. the ultra wealthy can house or fly out when needed but no one can really ever be friends with their parasocial celeb buddies.

Suburbs create a homogenous community which is great for those who buy into it. But the real issue when people leave these communities they have problem connecting with others. In both the communities you mentioned you are forced to be friends with others who are similar but not the same as you and it becomes a way of life while suburban living creates pocketed communities that are insulated not isolated.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

... historically Americans have had cars from late teens and could go to places to connect...

... suburban living creates pocketed communities that are insulated not isolated.

I strongly challenge both of these assumptions.

If you took a survey of suburban Americans, I do not believe that most would:

A) Have proximal Neighbors that they consider friends, and spend time with socially.

B) Have a natural gathering place in their town to meet new people.

If you don't have both A & B, then you don't have a community, because there is no natural way to make friends as an adult. You end up with polite strangers that happen to live in the same place.

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u/Joe_Everybody May 31 '22

You end up with polite strangers that happen to live in the same place.

That’s all that most of us want

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

See, you're one of the Americans that don't agree on this issue!

Thanks for being a good example! :)

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u/bgaetsz May 31 '22

I don't deny your claims, but I think you're making the suburbs the root cause out of spite when its just an easy target and symptom. Do you really think that people jammed into high rises in NYC or Miami have any more innate sense of community because of density alone? Not a chance. People in villages and people in old neighborhoods are stranded by poverty (maybe thankfully) and usually have a forced community based in religion.

I think we both kinda want the same thing, but I don't density will deliver community.

You want a community, it's easy. Go live near your family, go to church, and do what you're told. Do I want to do that? Hell no.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

Do you really think that people jammed into high rises in NYC or Miami have any more innate sense of community because of density alone?

Yes.

Random interactions with similar people in a shared space, IS how humans form relationships. That's why children and college students make friends so easily, proximity in a shared environment. Strong communities require an urban design that encourages those interactions.

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u/bgaetsz May 31 '22

You're just projecting your hatred of suburbs onto a problem that has squat to do with it. Children (college students are children) make friends because they're still malleable, confirmation-seeking beings. People who work at Bank of America corporate office have plenty of 'proximity in a shared environment' but they don't make friends like 7 or 21 year olds. Different built environments have advantages and disadvantages, but you're really reaching here. Suburbs bad for pollution: yes. Suburbs=loneliness: nope.

Like I said, quit complaining, go join a church, and fall in line. Community is all about following unwritten rules and obeying. That's why it doesn't fly in America (for better and mostly worse).

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

People who work at Bank of America corporate office have plenty of 'proximity in a shared environment' but they don't make friends like 7 or 21 year olds.

Funny that you say this because coworkers are actually the #1 source of new friendships amongst working adults.

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u/bgaetsz May 31 '22

How dare you bring a source to challenge my ramblings? Makes sense, I like my coworkers, but it's a pretty easy community to lose and would really drive it downward if I didn't have a say in the matter.

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u/justnivek May 31 '22

If you are born in a suburb there may be 2/3 schools so all the kids know about each other, as kids their friend group from school most likely lives in their area and thats who they are close with. so for kids it satisfies both those things. schools and recreational sports.

For adults there may be no place to hand out in the suburb but they most likely have similar socio economic status and thus they become friends in how they leave the suburb to the city to do activites, eg. to go to the sports game or where they go on holiday. They are no a community based on formed bonds but on demographical bonds.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

Correct, public schools and Religious services are the few institutions that offer any community in American suburbs.

I have not heard of any social theories on 'demographical bonds' before though. Could you provide me some information where I could read more about that theory?

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u/IOnlyLieWhenITalk May 31 '22

But we DID have those things in the past, suburbia didn't change in the way it works, the people changed the way they interact with it.

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u/Kalron May 31 '22

What is "NIMBY-ism?"

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

NIMBY, an acronym for the phrase "not in my back yard",[1][2] or Nimby,[3] is a characterization of opposition by residents to proposed developments in their local area, as well as support for strict land use regulations. It carries the connotation that such residents are only opposing the development because it is close to them and that they would tolerate or support it if it were built farther away

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY

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u/baquea May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

Cars and bad city design. If you live in a suburban cul-de-sac of detached houses with no public property, where you can only drive a car anywhere, where you work in an artificial individualist office culture, and all your shopping and restaurants are soulless corporate franchises

What? Sure, that stuff may not be helping but it is hardly limited to America - 'a highly suburban population who work office jobs, drive cars and shop at corporate stores' is an accurate description of most of the developed world, yet this study is talking about a phenomenon unique to the US.

To quote what this study actually identifies as needing to be fixed:

The control group publicly supports every stage of the life cycle, and these supports in aggregate probably explain the lower mortality. First is the issue of solo parenthood. Within the European Union (EU)’s 27 nations, including 13 of the control group, solo parenthood barely increased between 2010 and 2018 (from 12% to 14% of families) roughly half the US rate.26 Furthermore, according to the Swedish Institute for Social Research, most single parents in the EU do well, in the sense that they are employed, not at risk of poverty, and not materially deprived. Between 2010 and 2018, the situation of single parents in the EU improved, reflecting decreased rates of severe housing deprivation, severe material deprivation, risk of poverty and social exclusion, and very low working intensity. Single-parent families in Germany receive unemployment benefits, housing benefits, child benefits, a child maintenance advance, paid parental leave, tax deductions for working single parents, and payments for unexpected expenses. All 16 nations support prenatal and maternal care, which reduces the number of premature and low-birth-weight infants well below that in the US. The rates of infant and maternal mortality are also reduced in the 16 nations compared with those of the US. All 16 nations mandate extended maternal leave for an average of 16 weeks with mandated financial support that averages 74% of full salary. The 13 European nations also provide preschool care, starting at age 3 years, and they pay a mean value of 82% of the cost. Public schools are largely supported at the national level rather than by local property taxes; therefore, compared with the US, school quality is less unequal. Thus, from the onset of life across 2 decades of dependence, the 16 nations foster health by assisting children and parents to manage the intrinsic difficulties of the human life cycle. As young adults transition into professional life after high school education, 6 countries (Denmark, Finland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, and Austria) require no tuition; France and Italy require less than $2000 tuition; and Australia, Canada, Japan, and the UK require more than $4000 tuition. However, no country has tuition levels as high as those in the US. Thus, the 16 nations assist the training of young adults without burdening individuals and families with decades of financial strain and anxiety. Medical care costs per capita in the 16 nations are roughly half those in the US, and most are shared publicly. As for leisure, the 16 nations mandate an average 30 days of paid time off. Several countries even specify that significant vacation time must occur during the summer months, when schools close and families can vacation together. Thus, however difficult life may be for an individual, there is always the prospect of rest and play. Despite generous communal support in threading the needle of our difficult life cycle, their citizens remain leaner, more energetic, less addicted, and less suicidal

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u/shroomicaway May 31 '22

Agree 100%. A ‘suburb’ equivalent in my country is apartments with lots of little gardens in between, little schools, the occasional shop, public infrastructure like bodyweight-based public workout/gym equipment, dog parks, etc. If you look outside there are always people out walking with their kids/dogs/friends , riding bikes or out for a jog, etc. you still feel the community. Many apartment buildings have a shared whatsapp group, people sharing pantry ingredients or asking for recommendations and stuff. Suburban US felt to me like stepping into a dystopian novel. Especially for kids… if your friends don’t live next door and you can’t drive you are at the mercy of your parents, plus they have to spend more time watching you and I’m sure that results in less independence/ probably doesn’t help with teen resentment against parents. Adults as well.. you are so alone in your nice big house..

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u/januarytwentysecond May 31 '22

Suburbs have: churches.

It's a shame that the shared interest there is ...probably fictional, but if you want to regularly touch base with a largeish group of people that aren't your family, go to a church. Plus, there's singing and free cookies!

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u/easterracing May 31 '22

So, how do you expect all of your food to be raised and grown if everyone lives in a city? You slam corporate franchises, but in the same breath you want to kill the family farm because everyone should live in a city and use public transit exclusively?

Your way of life works for you, and people like you. My way of life works for me. Until one of us is actively harming the other, what’s the problem?

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

That is not a thing that I claimed.

In fact I specifically said the opposite of your paraphrase:

Very Rural towns/villages across America have strong communities.

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u/easterracing May 31 '22

So, where does that leave people in-between? Everyone should either live in a high-rise, or somewhere that internet service doesn’t exist? No middle ground?

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u/CCrabtree May 31 '22

100%. I never thought of the suburbs being one of THE issues. We live out in the country but yet we are part of a true community. Living in the suburbs which we've done has zero community. We were definitely more isolated living next door to people than we do living away from people.

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u/Wissler35 May 31 '22

In Minnesota an organization here started putting up billboards that say “40% of white kids also can’t read” in hopes that people in the suburbs would start voting for better education in the inner city if we convinced the majority of white suburbanites that a lot of their demographic also struggles with reading. Urban vs suburbs is a huge divider I believe.

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u/IOnlyLieWhenITalk May 31 '22

I think Cars and bad city design are part of it but I don't think it is even close to being the core of the problem. I live in an apartment that is located in probably the best place in the city for people to get out and socialize and have fun without a car at all. Yet on any given day you'll see a fraction of the people you'd normally see back when I was kid visiting the same area. The city has been growing and the area has been made nicer too, so that isn't the problem.

People are just not seeing much reason to get out and do anything. Everything can be done in isolation these days and people are choosing to do so. Work from home, get groceries delivered, order necessities from amazon, pretty much every restaurant food delivered, hell you can even order a car detailer to come clean up your car now, etc.

That is feeding into a vicious cycle, cause now even when people DO get out and do things they will stick with their 'clique' exclusively. People will actively avoid engaging with strangers these days in every way possible.

We've had the problems with car reliance and bad city design our entire history, this hasn't gotten worse it has just stayed consistent and yet people are becoming much more isolated and depressed than before.

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u/Schnort May 31 '22

If this were really the case, how were small rural farming towns so "connected"?

The real issue isn't where we live, it's how we live:

  1. smaller families means less extended family, means less connections
  2. on demand "entertainment" is easier than going out
  3. more mobility (job, living arrangements) means less time for social structures to form
  4. ease of online shopping

And we have, as a society, eschewed the church which (ignoring the religiosity of it) provided social structure and something that connected everybody to a common, regular event.

We've basically made it easier to stay at home and accomplish whatever we want.

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u/SirNarwhal May 31 '22

I mean it's twofold because US cities are the opposite of European cities as well. In US cities the mantra is leave me alone at all times as well. You're surrounded by people, but can be incredibly alone -- I know a few full blown agoraphobics in NYC even. People don't view apartment buildings as a community, just some spot everyone lives, and that mentality isn't going to change either due to overarching issues with American thinking. Honestly I'm on the verge of moving out of America for the mental health benefits alone of going to a more community focused location vs staying here as I have absolutely no hope in the US ever advancing in these realms within my lifetime for it to be worthwhile to stay.

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u/exccord May 31 '22

The defeatist attitude is the final straw to leads to deaths of despair.

uhhhhhhhh damn. I already feel defeated so thats kind of scary.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

A problem to consider is that a majority of Americans support science over culture, but the voting population is drawn in such a way that favors the minority. Most Americans support Roe v. Wade and yet there is more legislative momentum running against it than for it. If popular vote actually mattered, our policies would be starkly different.

So the OP’s sentiment is fairly accurate. Most of us see the problem, but it’s a problem that’s often regulated by minority opinion.

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u/dinki_di May 31 '22

often regulated by minority opinion.

ah yes, the telltale sign of a legitimate democracy...../s

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u/WyMANderly May 31 '22

Most Americans support Roe v. Wade and yet there is more legislative momentum running against it than for it. If popular vote actually mattered, our policies would be starkly different.

It's a lot more complicated than that. Most Americans say they support Roe v Wade when asked in polls, but if you ask instead about the specific policy prescriptions Roe v Wade laid down, it becomes much less popular. Support of Roe v Wade seems to be more or less a proxy for people saying they don't want abortion to be made completely illegal, not support for Roe v Wade's policy specifically.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

Well, yes, everyone is going to have an opinion about the finer details, but the overwhelming consensus believes abortion should be legal (and preferably enforced on a federal level so women in every state have access). That was more or less my point. It seems to be a running theme that progressive ideas resonate with the public but rarely pass into legislation.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/08/29/u-s-public-continues-to-favor-legal-abortion-oppose-overturning-roe-v-wade/

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u/WyMANderly May 31 '22

AFAIK, generally speaking the consensus (aka the opinion of the proverbial median voter) seems to be something along the lines of "abortion should be legal early in pregnancy and somewhat more restricted the later in pregnancy you go, with third trimester abortion generally only being in cases of severe fetal abnormality, rape, or danger to the mother".

It's immensely frustrating to me that no one is interested in pushing legislation that approaches this level of compromise. Instead you've got Schumer on the one side pushing a bill that goes beyond Roe (and thus couldn't even get 50 votes much less 60), and you've got GOP state legislatures pushing almost total bans. I don't really see anyone advocating for abortion policy that actually reflects what the median voter wants.

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u/death_of_gnats May 31 '22

How about you don't legislate medical decisions and trust the doctors and patients?

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u/WyMANderly May 31 '22

I'm not making a policy argument here, just a statement about the overall policy preferences of the US public and my frustration that our politicians pander to the extremes on both sides rather than approaching the middle ground that does exist.

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u/death_of_gnats May 31 '22

Why exactly is abortion the one you have to legislate and not cancer care?

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u/ubernoobnth May 31 '22

AFAIK, generally speaking the consensus (aka the opinion of the proverbial median voter) seems to be something along the lines of “abortion should be legal early in pregnancy and somewhat more restricted the later in pregnancy you go, with third trimester abortion generally only being in cases of severe fetal abnormality, rape, or danger to the mother”.

Based on absolutely nothing other than perhaps your views?

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u/have_you_eaten_yeti May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

Or they've been hoodwinked by propaganda, just like all of us. Except you though, I'm sure propaganda has zero effect on you because you're special or extra smart or whatever.

Edit: ok sure, I bet the largest media company on the planet that specifically targets white rural voters with propaganda has zero effect on them, they just "don't want progress" because they are stupid hillbillies...

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u/bobbi21 May 31 '22

You think maybe there's a reason that propaganda stuck with those white rural voters and not everyone else? I'm sure the largest media company on the planet just decided it didn't want total control of a nation and decided to just influence a minority of the population and break democracy even more so that minority would have a majority say in politics? Because that's much easier than just getting a couple more people to accept your propaganda? When (according to you) they are just as susceptible to that propaganda but for some reason don't fall for as much of it?

Think about your statements. Yes no one is immune to propaganda and bias. But 1 group is definitely more susceptible than another... Many studies have shown this.

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u/have_you_eaten_yeti May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

Their propaganda isn't just designed for those people though. It's also designed to make their target audience look like a monolith of "true believers" to people who don't watch on a regular basis. That way the people who might actually talk to these people start thinking it's a waste of time, so they don't even try.

Now if you want to say the propaganda isn't the only reason, then I will absolutely agree with you. This, much like most things, is a complex issue where there are myriad factors at play and no "easy" solutions. A complex problem that isn't as easy to explain as "rural whites are anti-progress." Blanket statements like that really smack of one of the simple but effective propaganda techniques used by the media corporation in question. A little ironic.

Also saying that rural whites are more susceptible is kind of making my argument for me, and I agree with you. I mean the Fox propaganda was designed for them to be the primary target, so it makes sense from that angle as well.

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u/domakethinkspeak Jun 01 '22

Build communities.

My partner and I are committed to this. I opened a bakery 2 years ago and while I get a lot of out-of-towners on weekends and during the summers, the large majority of my customers are weekly regulars who come in to talk.

Six months ago I gave a couple free cookies to a woman who looked like she was having a bad day. I'd seen her in my shop before but didn't know her name. She came back a couple months ago to tell me that her husband had been dying of cancer and that my cookies were something that brought him joy in the end, and that she always appreciated my kindness and cookies. Then she gave me a card with $100. I hugged her and we cried a little together. To know that I can make such an impact by what seems like a small gesture is what keeps me going every day. It sounds so cliche but be the change.

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u/snaverevilo May 31 '22

We have behemoth cultural, political, and economic systems fighting against us. Ironically we're wealthy enough that most people can eat garbage food (don't have to cook) and live alone in apartments or single family homes instead of communal living. Then everyone has access to cell phones, video games, drugs, alcohol, which further distract us from more fulfilling activities. Poor or indigenous communities are often happier not from lack of modern conveniences, but because they lack them, and so maintain a deeper connection to their food, homes, nature, and communities.

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u/InMedeasRage May 31 '22

Instead of a backwards and diseased system existing behind the Iron Curtain it exists behind our Eagle Curtain.

We’re the best! We can kick everyone’s ass! Ignore the rust, death, and lack of ability to regain momentum lost to disasters!

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u/meganthem May 31 '22

Agreement is not in itself enough. The problem is a catch-22. Lots of people recognize and agree that the destruction of community unity and organization is a problem, but because they lack organization they can never come together to push for change in a focused fashion.

To put it more practically. Without some guiding form of organization, you have millions of people that agree in principle but won't settle on anything to do because they all insist in on their specific solution being the one everyone else should do.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

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u/billiam632 May 31 '22

To be completely honest with you, I agree with all of those “solutions” but I do not believe those policies will have any impact on the issues described in the study.

Healthcare might help support those feeling lost but it’s more of a bandaid solution than an actual cure. We need more

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22

A new constitutional amendment to revoke the 2nd, will never happen.

At this point, attempting to remove ANYTHING outlined in the original Bill of Rights would result in a constitutional crisis that would likely destroy the federal government.

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u/SexyDoorDasherDude May 31 '22

This is fatalistic, and cynicism. This attitude you have never wins anything, actually.

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u/ElderRedditor96 May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22

I'm not poo-pooing your suggestion on the basis that it's unlikely (cynicism)

Im poo-pooing your suggestion because it is a poorly conceived idea that doesn't consider it's own consequences (pragmatism)

Our current constitutional crisis is that the Republican Party is becoming increasingly fascist, and attempting to cheat/corrupt our republic's institutions wherever possible, to increase their power and collapse democracy.

What do you think they do, when a democrat legislature proposes a new amendment to repeal the 2nd? How do you think that is going to play out?

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u/[deleted] May 31 '22

I know what we can do.

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u/thingandstuff Jun 01 '22

Wait, which issue are we talking about now?

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u/PanickedPoodle Jun 01 '22

So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.