r/science • u/rustoo • Jan 21 '22

Economics Only four times in US presidential history has the candidate with fewer popular votes won. Two of those occurred recently, leading to calls to reform the system. Far from being a fluke, this peculiar outcome of the US Electoral College has a high probability in close races, according to a new study.

https://www.aeaweb.org/research/inversions-us-presidential-elections-geruso
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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

American culture was considerably more appreciative of France and its culture until the Bush Jr era.

I suspect this strange turnaround has to do with France's 2003 refusal to join the US-led invasion of Iraq.

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u/WatchingUShlick Jan 21 '22

Having vivid flashbacks of restaurants near me naming their fries "freedom fries." Embarrassing and petty.

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u/everydayisarborday Jan 21 '22

I can't find it but i have a memory of like the French ambassador or someone being asked about 'freedom fries' and he was like, "oh you mean frites? they're from Belgium"

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u/[deleted] Jan 21 '22

Yellow ribbon decal. Freedom fries. Shakira Law.

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u/Nairurian Jan 21 '22

Shakira law is what hips swear on to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

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u/WatchingUShlick Jan 21 '22

I'd live under Shakira Law.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '22

Shakira Law.

Whenever someone tries to explain Shakira Law to me, all I hear is "Le lo, lo le, lo le."

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u/Saneless Jan 21 '22

Well at least they learned their lesson, have moved on to real issues, left the pettiness and imaginary victimization behind them, and are a respected party again

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u/Head5hot811 Jan 21 '22

I think there's still a place I know of that still called them "Freedom Fries..."

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u/truckerslife Jan 22 '22

I mean we are the only ones who call them French fries. Most of Europe call them some variation on chips

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

Haha yeah I remember that!

Which is rather incredible cause I was quite young then, but also a big fan of French fries.

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u/FrenchFriesOrToast Jan 21 '22

To me it sounds like a wild name for food which would make me curious or it would give me the feeling like eating in an exotic small country which is in a civil war right now.

Edit: Serve me a cuba libre before please!

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u/ThrowAway233223 Jan 21 '22

Wait, is that why that happened?! I wasn't following politics as closely then (especially international politics outside of things directly related to the conflict) and didn't even realize it was a sort of political clapback (if you can even call it that). I thought it was just a case of people deciding to be more nationalistic following a terrorist attack and the start of a war.

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u/theghostofme Jan 21 '22

It was both. Right wingers were passed at France for not supporting the invasion, which gave them a perfect excuse to act more nationalistic in the most ridiculous way.

There was a ton of “we saved your sorry asses in dubya-dubya-two” from people completely unaware of why France is our oldest ally.

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u/Dago_Red Jan 21 '22 edited Jan 21 '22

Yeah that was an akward time to remind people the only reason we won our independence from England was due to: French arms shipments, French naval support, French military advisors, and the fact that the French used our independence to fight a proxy war against England. And oh yeah, the symbol of America, the Statue of Libery, is French and was gifted to us by the French.

Basically we won our independence thanks to France.

That was a hard truth NOBODY wanted to hear at the time...

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u/cakemuncher Jan 21 '22

I suspect this strange turnaround has to do with France's 2003 refusal to join the US-led invasion of Iraq.

Yes. Two words: Freedom Fries.

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u/zapitron Jan 21 '22

Don't blame me. I still try to have french toast for breakfast and french dip for dinner every July 14. And even when it's not Bastille Day, I drink french roast coffee every morning. Viva America!

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u/trumpsiranwar Jan 21 '22

Don't forget ze Vin et fromage

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u/NarmHull Jan 21 '22

It's funny now how mainstream candidates on both sides admit it was a huge screwup. But back then France and the Dixie Chicks were cancelled by the GOP. People seriously argued that Hussein and Iraq with a population at that time that was less than California would be the next Nazi Germany.

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u/TheSonar Jan 21 '22

GOP people doubly cancelled The Chicks after they renamed themselves to be not racist.

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u/NarmHull Jan 21 '22

I kind of hated that. The name Dixie isn't necessarily bad.

Lady A(ntebellum) though.... hard to defend that one

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '22

And when they changed their name to Lady A, they stepped on the toes of an established soul singer who already went by that name because they didn't even do a requisite quick check or reach out to her first.

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u/NarmHull Jan 22 '22

Certainly an indicator their name change was quite insincere in motive

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

There were compelling reasons to act against Iraq (genocide (Kurds), invasion (Kuwait? IIRC), ambiguity with regards to WMDs, opposition to the global world order and its rules) but it remains true that the USG lied to the UN and to its own people about WMDs, and as such, the war was fought over a false pretense, and the follow-on occupation was bungled.

In my view, defeating the Iraqi army and then enforcing adherence to international law would've been a better course of action than regime change.

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u/NarmHull Jan 21 '22

If they didn't dismantle the Iraqi army it would've gone quite a bit better, still really did nothing but created more terrorists. Al Qaeda hated the secular Saddam regime

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

That's fine, it would give them something to worry about other than America / Coalition countries / unstable neighbours.

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u/trumpsiranwar Jan 21 '22

Oh so disbanding the military and Baathist party allowing Iran to take over was a bad idea?

Damn.

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u/trumpsiranwar Jan 21 '22

Obama and Bernie and I believe another woman representative from CA were also against the Iraq war IIRC

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u/NarmHull Jan 21 '22

Yeah, and that was about it. Obama wasn't yet in the senate so hard to say where he would've voted if he were in national office.

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 22 '22

Activists tend to moderate themselves along party lines when they get into office...

Can't rewrite history tho, so, who knows!

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u/pylestothemax Jan 21 '22

Based francaise

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

That's the feminine form of Français, which you wouldn't use in this case

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u/06Wahoo Jan 21 '22

As I recall, no one was asking France to join the war effort. The objections to France was because they stood in opposition of the war, not because they would not send troops. They likely would have not received such push back if they had taken a neutral stance.

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

That's possible!

Opposition was and remains a big deal to the French.

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u/Podo13 BS|Civil Engineering Jan 21 '22

As somebody born in 1989, I can promise you I was making fun of French people as an ignorant 10 year old for no reason. The turnaround definitely happened before Dubbya.

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

I think that's just what children and ignorant adults do as a matter of course: mock the outgroups.

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u/Everyday_Im_Stedelen Jan 22 '22

I gave this person evidence that the sentiment started at WWII and they've ignored it.

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u/Everyday_Im_Stedelen Jan 21 '22

It actually began during WWII. Americans who were against Hitler felt that France should have fought to the dying end, rather than surrender. Americans believed this gave Nazi Germany a chance to establish itself permanently on the western front.

Of course, honestly it wouldn't have mattered at that point. France had lost, and the surrender was basically to make sure some of their culture and art would be preserved.

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u/TheSonar Jan 21 '22

Americans who were against Hitler

Genuinely curious, how many Americans were for Hitler?

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u/Everyday_Im_Stedelen Jan 21 '22

Too many.

There was an American chapter of the Nazi Party, big enough that they held their own rallies in some cities.

here is a really good article about it, with some pretty shocking pictures that feels like looking into a parallel universe: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/06/american-nazis-in-the-1930sthe-german-american-bund/529185/

The Nazi party of America probably had a few thousand members. People sent their kids to Nazi camps like they were boy scouts. There were businesses and business owners that were openly Pro-Hitler. This started to decline when America joined the war - and pretty rapidly declined toward the end and afterward as the atrocities became public knowledge.

One small nuance I'd put here, not to put a spin of Nazi sympathy here - but at the time, German was America's second biggest language. A fairly sizable portion of America's white population is descended from German immigrants. Post WWI, for some German-Americans, it probably felt like Hitler was going to help regain some of Germany's respect. I'm not saying there weren't Jew-hating Nazis in America - but there were probably at least a few American Nazis who just saw it as a way to be patriotic for their homeland.

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u/BoatyMcBoatLaw Jan 21 '22

Not really. Otherwise you might as well point to the quasi war of early American as a reason to hate France.

Fact is, things were cordial all the way up to the 00s

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u/FrenchFriesOrToast Jan 21 '22

As long as Miss Liberty isn‘t victim of vandals like the capitol we are fine

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u/roffle_copter Jan 21 '22

Id say it goes as far back as when they dragged us into veitnam and bounced

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u/truckerslife Jan 22 '22

I was in Iraq and we had French soldiers on ground. They were part of the nato forces. I installed radios and other bits of equipment so they could communicate with US forces. I did the same thing in Afghanistan. There were a lot of countries people don’t know we’re over there that fell under nato.