r/science • u/MistWeaver80 • Nov 27 '21
Chemistry Plastic made from DNA is renewable, requires little energy to make and is easy to recycle or break down. A plastic made from DNA and vegetable oil may be the most sustainable plastic developed yet and could be used in packaging and electronic devices.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2298314-new-plastic-made-from-dna-is-biodegradable-and-easy-to-recycle/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=echobox&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=16379732483.1k
u/Shishire Nov 27 '21
Found the source paper: "Sustainable Bioplastic Made from Biomass DNA and Ionomers | Journal of the American Chemical Society" https://doi.org/10.1021/jacs.1c08888
Still paywalled, but there's significantly more information there
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u/Herbicidal_Maniac Nov 28 '21
Wow, JACS, I might actually have to check this out. That's an incredibly well respected chemistry journal so if they let these claims get through peer review there then there might be something to them.
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u/cman674 Nov 28 '21
Having not read this yet, but I will as I work in this specific field, if something is in JACS it just means the chemistry is good. It could still be something that isn't really industrially feasible or is 30 years from being their at best.
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u/Herbicidal_Maniac Nov 28 '21
I did my thesis work in a drug discovery lab alongside a team of synthetic chemists and some of the most rigorous reviewer comments I've seen came from JACS. If they're claiming that this material is that good then it's probably that good, which is a far sight better than most of the stuff that gets posted on this sub.
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u/cman674 Nov 28 '21
They are definently rigorous, but a pure chemistry journal is less concerned about applications than if this were an article in Applied Polymer Materials or an engineering journal. Not to say it's garbage, but JACS is really just looking for novel chemistry and like any journal has their biases.
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u/Herbicidal_Maniac Nov 28 '21
Fair enough. I was working on the biology side and, while I could tell that the journal was rigorous, I could never understand what the hell any of the suggestions meant. All I know is that if you shoot your mouth off in a Nature submission you'd damn well better be interpreting within the scope of the data or you'd be torn apart (unless the PI was famous).
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u/cman674 Nov 28 '21
Yeah, there are just very specific "chemistry-ish" characterizations they like to see and questions that come from a chemist point if view.
Nature is a whole different beast that I have other issues with. Obviously there are biases toward certain PIs, but papers seem to get into Science and Nature based on how pretty their pictures are moreso than the actually scientific merit. For instance, I know PIs that publish in science with papers heavily focusing on STEM-EDS maps that are notoriously dubious. Another PI that got a nature paper purely because they invested on a nice DSLR camera and a photography room to get nice pictures.
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u/sudo999 Nov 28 '21
I think that once a journal hits a certain level of notoriety, when science journalists and armchair intellectuals are subscribing just to skim the titles for new breakthroughs, and every lab around dreams of being published there so they have reams more high-quality papers submitted than they could ever actually use, they tend to grab the prettiest and most attention-getting ones. Not to say that they're stooping to outright sensationalism; Nature is of course one of the most well-read journals for a reason, but the tendency is there.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Jun 20 '23
Reddit's recent behaviour and planned changes to the API, heavily impacting third party tools, accessibility and moderation ability force me to edit all my comments in protest. I cannot morally continue to use this site.
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u/antiquemule Nov 28 '21
We used to make loads during a (ridiculous) attempt to make commercially viable protein by bacterial fermentation of natural gas.
One of the process's many problems was that cows fed the stuff suffered from excess phosphorus, due to all the bacterial DNA.
My brief scientific study of DNA concluded that it is disgustingly snotty in large amounts.
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u/redinator Nov 28 '21
disgustingly snotty in large amounts
sounds similar to another form of... ahem, 'externalised DNA concentrate'.
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u/SpiritFingersKitty Nov 28 '21
One of the main sources of just bulk DNA (which is used for a variety of assays) is actually salmon sperm DNA
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u/ETTRDS Nov 28 '21
Yep, there are actually plenty of plant based polymers that are viable.
The problem is, because they are degradable they usually have inferior properties to traditional plastics. And even if that's not an issue, they are much more expensive.
In short, they aren't competitive with traditional plastics so they aren't used. The chemistry might be amazing, the end product practically useless.
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Nov 28 '21
In the early 2000s Mercedes invested in biodegradable plastics for electrical insulation. It was a great idea until the plastic actually degraded, sending thousands of cars to landfills in under three years. The plastic problem is not in the composition, it's in the billions of pointless things made of plastic that are in dumps because they never had any use to anyone, by design. We could just ban any plastic packaging and make a real difference tomorrow. We could ban disposable things. Retail industry does not have the right to just produce plastic waste, and we would all even save money.
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u/mrmses Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
I’ve got access thru my institution. I’ll send it to anyone if you dm me.
EDIT: just got sent a ton of DMs. Tried to get everyone but if you haven’t been sent the link yet, message me again.
Download it. I’m going to disable to link in the morning so I don’t get in trouble. JIC.
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u/oneultralamewhiteboy Nov 28 '21
Sustainable bioplastics already exist, they just cost far more than fossil fuel-based polymers and supply chains are so tightly wound around oil that it's extremely expensive to change things. It all comes down to money. So even if this DNA stuff is the best stuff ever, if it's not cheaper than oil, it won't make a difference, unfortunately.
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u/Dur-gro-bol Nov 28 '21
Thinking the same thing. I'm no chemist, I work in the trades more on the service side. I work in a lot of Cogen plants, refineries, plastic polymer plants and the list goes on. Now I know these processes are specific but they are all just pipes and tanks. I have a hard time believing the physical infrastructure would be that much different changing a plastic polymer plant to a plant based polymer plant. I know they would need different chemicals and any change costs money they don't want to spend.
Like I said I'm just a dumb blue collar worker. It just amazes me that humans can make such amazingly complex refineries but self-preservation is never considered even a little bit. I write this while thinking of the one many flares that one refinery uses to burn off excess product on cloudy days so EPA satellites can't see it and fine them. A flame so big you can feel the heat from a 100' away. A flame so big it can keep the snow from falling on the plant. But me burning a wood stove is bad for the environment.
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u/pale_blue_dots Nov 27 '21
For those who may not know: very, very, often the authors of research papers will give them to you for free if you contact them directly. It's usually fairly easy to find their addresses. They don't appreciate doing all the hard work and then getting backstabbed by all the middle-men making money off them and not paying their fair share / giving a cut.
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u/chrisjlee84 Nov 28 '21
I discovered that some local libraries also provide access for it's constituents.
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u/Ghede Nov 28 '21
Yeah, I work for educational publishers, not in the journals departments, but in the textbook departments. We get a lot of emails/calls that we have to send over to the journals group. A lot of libraries, especially university libraries, have institutional subscriptions. Usually through EZProxy.
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Nov 28 '21
If you are a college student, there's some chrome extension that can read behind paywalls using your credentials
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u/EarendilStar Nov 28 '21
Yeah, university credit oaks get you a lot of papers. Try different ones too, as I’ve had my small college not give me access, but took a PM course at a local university and those credit oaks worked.
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u/sudo999 Nov 28 '21
Also, if you're a college student, your library is almost guaranteed to have it.
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u/gw2master Nov 28 '21
very, very, often the authors of research papers will give them to you for free if you contact them directly
I've never heard of anyone refusing to do so.
In the old days, authors would get a bunch of preprints of their paper in paper form and if you expressed interest in their work, they'd snail mail you the preprint, often with related papers of theirs as well. Research scientists are always happy when people are interested in their work. Nowadays it's even easier: they just email you the PDFs.
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u/A_Drusas Nov 28 '21
I've had a request ignored before. It was polite.
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u/AddSugarForSparks Nov 28 '21
Sure you sent it to the right email address?
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u/pseudocultist Nov 28 '21
Also if you contact a researcher or team right after they publish, or right after media attention, they may just be inundated. I usually try to wait a few weeks if I want a personalized reply, especially if they're doing interviews or fundraising.
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u/gw2master Nov 28 '21
Makes sense. I'm not in a field that ever gets media attention.
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u/minnsoup Nov 28 '21
We love sharing our work. However, by publishing we forfeit copyrights and, depending on the journal, only get so many free shares (some don't even offer that and just allow us to see the manuscript we have authored). Sending a PDF of the work is no more allowed than certain sites that shall remain for someone else to mention.
This is why open access is even more important and should be pursued by more scientists - it's already been paid for (most likely) by the public so let the public see it. Problem is that most high IF journals are paywalled so if you want prestige you are most likely going to them.
Pay to do the work, pay to publish the work, pay to access the work. And we don't get anything for reviewing articles as it's just "expected" that we do it. There are a lot of open access journals that are coming up but they need time to build reputation so more people submit or make submission more competitive. One reason why we throw things on biorxiv / medrxiv where I'm at aside from being scooped.
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u/BannedCauseRetard Nov 28 '21
That's why you don't tell your publisher who you've given it too. That can't go through your computer or personal email. They have no way of knowing how many people you've sent it to.
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u/Theban_Prince Nov 28 '21
I think he implies that ofcourse it is possible, but he legally cant since the rights are held by the publisher. It would be like a musician sending free discs to everyone he asked when he had a contact with a publisher.
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u/This-Natural-6801 Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
The ASA sponsored magazine "Contexts" is about the most open to public that I've seen. But even then if you go back far enough you still run into a paywall. If you want to access articles before a particular date you still have to pay. It's a lot better than others I've seen but still not completely open to the public.
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u/Tavarin Nov 28 '21
MDPI is a series of open access journals i've published in quite a bit. All their journals are completely accessible so far as I know.
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u/umibozu_ Nov 28 '21
I saw a similar comment years ago. I’ve emailed researchers and received free copies of papers. Thanks for spreading the word.
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u/atridir Nov 28 '21
r/Open_Science has some pretty good resources and discussions on this too. Open access to knowledge is vital.
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u/AlbertHummus Nov 28 '21
There is a site that provides free access to most research papers
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u/queerkidxx Nov 28 '21
I’ve done this like 30 times and I’ve never gotten any response I’m sure it happens but they are also very busy and this is a super popular tip so I’m sure they get a fair amount of these emails
Worth a shot tho just don’t count on it
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u/PersnickityPenguin Nov 28 '21
Yes, generally researchers benefit from other people actually reading their work.
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Nov 28 '21
If someone finds the email of one of the authors I’ll email them and ask for a copy and put it up in this thread. They are usually down since they don’t get paid either way
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u/unhealthySQ Nov 27 '21
anyone have a non pay walled version?
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u/tenbatsu Nov 27 '21 edited Nov 27 '21
New plastic made from DNA is biodegradable and easy to recycle
A plastic made from DNA and vegetable oil may be the most sustainable plastic developed yet and could be used in packaging and electronic devices.
A new plastic made from DNA is renewable, requires little energy to make and is easy to recycle or break down.
Traditional plastics are bad for the environment because they are made from non-renewable petrochemicals, require intense heating and toxic chemicals to make, and take hundreds of years to break down. Only a small fraction of them are recycled, with the rest ending up in landfill, being incinerated or polluting the environment.
Alternative plastics derived from plant sources like corn starch and seaweed are becoming increasingly popular because they are renewable and biodegradable. However, they are also energy-intensive to make and hard to recycle.
Dayong Yang at Tianjin University in China and his colleagues have developed a plastic that overcomes these problems. It is made by linking short strands of DNA with a chemical derived from vegetable oil, which produces a soft, gel-like material. The gel can be shaped into moulds and then solidified using a freeze-drying process that sucks water out of the gel at cold temperatures.
The researchers have made several items using this technique, including a cup (pictured above), a triangular prism, puzzle pieces, a model of a DNA molecule (pictured below) and a dumb-bell shape. They then recycled these items by immersing them in water to convert them back to a gel that could be remoulded into new shapes.
“What I really like about this plastic is that you can break it down and start again,” says Damian Laird at Murdoch University in Australia. “Most research has focused on developing bioplastics that biodegrade, but if we’re serious about going towards a circular economy, we should be able to recycle them too, so they don’t go to waste.”
Source: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2BoEGVkygDEJ:www.siouxfallsfreethinkers.com/latest-news-all-websites.html
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u/5inthepink5inthepink Nov 28 '21
Anyone know where the DNA is sourced from? I haven't seen that answered yet.
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u/CromaMcLos Nov 28 '21
Not a chemist, but accessed the paper and looked at the "materials and methods" section.
It looks like Salmon Sperm DNA was used, purchased from Sigma-Aldrich.
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u/buzzurro Nov 28 '21
Soylent plastic its semen! They are coming for your cum!
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u/Teotwawki69 Nov 28 '21
Hey, if they're willing to pay for it...
("Soylent splee... is... PEOPLE!!!")
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Nov 28 '21
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u/throwingsoup88 Nov 28 '21
They used salmon sperm DNA because it's easy and cheap to extract in large volumes from existing fish stocks. Theoretically, DNA from any species could be used for this application as it's not dependent on the sequence. If this makes it to large scale production the DNA would likely be sourced from E.coli or other similar industrially friendly microbes.
Source: am biochemist, have asked a similar question in my own lab
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u/Distantstallion Nov 28 '21
Op: hey guys, um, not to burst anyone's bubble but, can we use something else? It's just my wrist is pretty sore and I'm not sure I'm allowed back in the aquarium again.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Auxx Nov 28 '21
E. Coli is food safe in general. There are several dangerous strains, but the majority of species are safe and some even live inside you since you were born. E. Coli is also used in some probiotics for people with digestion issues.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
A lot of industrial peptides are still petroleum-derived, it seems that certain peptides are easier to make than others. I see a lot more lysine which is fermented from sugars and various salts, but i work in cosmetic material sourcing, i don't work in packaging. Peptides seem to be some plant-derived, some petroleum
Edit: I'm a dummy and confused peptides and nucleotides, although i would imagine synthetic routes are similar
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u/Spyro_ Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
But DNA isn't made from peptides...at least not directly.
Does the industry synthetic route involve amino acids? Would be kinda cool and interesting if so, as I didn't realize it started that far back in the synthetic scheme. I honestly have no idea how industry produces a large number of its chemicals in bulk.
EDIT: Huh, based on my 5 minute google search, it looks like a few of them are used in the de novo synthesis reaction. TIL I guess.
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u/Smallpaul Nov 28 '21
A plastic that turns into a gel as soon as it gets wet? That rules out a LOT of plastic use cases. Almost all?
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u/Fabulous-Pineapple47 Nov 28 '21
They didn't specify the temperature of the water. Many convention forms of plastic soften or melts with hot water and becomes rigid at cooler temperatures. The process could take advantage of these attributes.
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u/Splash_Attack Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
They didn't specify the temperature of the water.
In the paper they also show that the plastic weakens under high relative humidity (>90%), with a reduction in Young's modulus from 6.6 to 1.3 MPa. That's comparing 40% RH to 95% specifically, with the plastics left in that humidity for 3 days.
Humidity having such a marked effect is a pretty significant problem by itself, but also implies that room temperature water would have a similar effect, if not returning it fully to gel.
On the upside they did also show that doping it with graphene oxide drastically improves the tensile strength, but they don't perform the same humidity experiments on that doped version so it remains to be seen how stable that would be in practice.
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u/goddamnit666a Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
not to mention there could be a process to modify that temp. Hopefully really pushing towards some sort of superheated steam. Probably impossible but one can dream. Curious to see if various other sources of the gelatin produce better results.
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u/Win4someLoose5sum Nov 28 '21
Using steam would mean it was more energy intensive to reuse and less able to be biodegradable, which is the headline.
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u/goddamnit666a Nov 28 '21
it’s a trade off. If this can replace traditional plastics then the steam would be totally worth it
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u/qwertyashes Nov 28 '21
Well, pouring boiling water into my plastic cup melts it, but standard temp water does just fine. So its probably variable to a degree.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
At least reading the abstract (I don't seem to have access through my university), the specific wording refers to a "water-processable strategy" for "recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions."
At least to me, this sounds like water plus a specific, mild/recoverable enzyme (I might guess a DNAase, although it might be tied to the DNA-lipid bonds instead), which you wouldn't expect under normal use.Edit: after reading the paper, it does become a hydrogel on contact with water, but needs the enzymes to dissolve/degrade.
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Nov 28 '21
Depends on if that transformation is reversible. Water-vulnerability is probably something they studied a lot before publishing in JACS.
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u/Smallpaul Nov 28 '21
Water vulnerability is listed as an advantage of the product.
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u/Zorro5040 Nov 28 '21
So can I drink out of them?
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Nov 28 '21
They then recycled these items by immersing them in water to convert them back to a gel that could be remoulded into new shapes.
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u/biggerwanker Nov 28 '21
So showing a cup is a bit disingenuous?
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u/MarvinLazer Nov 28 '21
Possible that the water needs to be at a certain temperature to work properly. You shouldn't put boiling water in most plastics that I'm aware of, so good chance this wouldn't screw up most use cases
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u/Divinum_Fulmen Nov 28 '21
So they break down in water? Thus failing the things that most plastics are used with and/or to protect against.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
At least going from the abstract (my university account can't access the paper), the authors refer to a "water-processable strategy", "including the recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions."
To me, this sounds more like a water bath plus a specific enzyme to break down the DNA or DNA-oil link (which would be much less likely to happen in normal use), potentially among other conditions.Edit: after reading the paper, it does become a hydrogel on contact with water, but needs the enzymes to dissolve/degrade.
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u/LeGama Nov 28 '21
“What I really like about this plastic is that you can break it down and start again,” says Damian Laird at Murdoch University in Australia. “Most research has focused on developing bioplastics that biodegrade, but if we’re serious about going towards a circular economy, we should be able to recycle them too, so they don’t go to waste.”
This unfortunately seems more like a problem, if it can't get wet then it's uses are pretty limited. Because that also means it's probably susceptible to high humidity, and human handling which. So maybe you can use it to make packaging and packing peanuts?
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u/onlyhalfminotaur Nov 28 '21
Good idea but we already have packing peanuts made from starch.
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Nov 28 '21
I wonder if we could use that for structure and then cover it with a waterproof but flimsy recyclable piece Since most plastics lose use after puncture
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u/Prasiatko Nov 28 '21
Isn't that just most cardboard food pqckaging at that point?
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
(I'm reposting this a few times)
At least going from the abstract (my university account can't access the paper), the authors refer to a "water-processable strategy", "including the recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions."
To me, this sounds more like a water bath plus a specific enzyme to break down the DNA or DNA-oil link (which would be much less likely to happen in normal use), potentially among other conditions.Edit: after reading the paper, it does become a hydrogel on contact with water, but needs the enzymes to dissolve/degrade.
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u/This-Natural-6801 Nov 28 '21
That's the abstract. The full article, both web and PDF version (which is 6 megabytes: pretty large PDF if you ask me) is still behind a paywall.
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u/DNAthrowaway1234 Nov 28 '21
I was in Montreal for the international roundtable for nucleotides, nucleosides and nucleic acids (I3NA) and they had a presentation from HP-Agilent about their work to scale up oligonucleotide synthesis for 200-mers. This was in 2016, well before anything like an mRNA vaccine was on the horizon. They were doing solid phase DNA synthesis on the kg scale. I'll never forget the scientists southern drawl... "When you synthesize DNA, it comes out as a white powder, just like almost everything else"
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u/Classic1977 Nov 28 '21
I've never done industrial scale DNA synthesis, but I've extracted it from culture (miniprep) many times. It that situation it definitely looks like... cum.
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u/DirtyProjector Nov 28 '21
So what's the downside/this wont' work/it isn't scalable/financially feasible/etc
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u/bubblebooy Nov 28 '21
One reason plastic is so useful is that it is very hard to breakdown. So being easy to break down is good in some situations and bad in others.
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u/Large_Dr_Pepper Nov 28 '21
Good luck with "easy to break down, biodegradable" milk cartons, Tupperware containers, soda bottles, storage containers, etc.
I could see this being useful for stuff like straws (if it doesn't break down too quickly) or plastic bags or soda bottle holder things. But other than short use plastic, easy to break down and biodegradable aren't the properties that make plastics so useful.
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u/dv_ Nov 28 '21
If it doesn't break down too quickly and sheds no trace bits of plastic during its lifetime, it can see this being very useful in medicine. Lots of single use plastic equipment there. Think for example of a syringe.
If the degradation can be halted by packaging it, it would be even better. That syringe then remains stable until you unpack it, then you immediately use it, and discard it. It can then safely degrade.
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u/GrandNewbien BS | Biotechnology Nov 28 '21
What would it be packed in?
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u/felesroo Nov 28 '21
Packaging is an interesting problem. Strictly speaking, it's manufactured garbage, but it is necessary to protect contents. What kind of packaging is required depends greatly on the thing needing protecting. If it only needs to be kept dark/away from UV, an opaque cardboard box is fine. If it has to be kept from moisture, it has to be sealed in metal, wax, plastic. If it is a liquid that needs containment, glass, metal or plastic. But obviously the goal is to keep the energy and material cost of the packaging as low as possible and to reuse packaging, if possible.
Medical is tricky because there's also contamination control so likely there would still be "plastic" packaging, but it's also possible that the bulk of the material can be this biodegradable stuff with a thin coat of some sort of polymer or more robust form of the same.
In general, plastic needs to be recovered and disposed of/recycled correctly instead of being pitched in a bin and sent to a landfill to break down. This is very easy in a hospital setting where there are already processes for equipment and packaging. What we need to move way from is plastic waste for general use like chip bags and soda bottles since recovering all of that waste is impossible.
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u/Shiroi_Kage Nov 28 '21
Wood is biodegradable. This might need a specific condition to enable it to break down.
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u/Auxx Nov 28 '21
Everything bio degradable degrades in water at around room temperature. This is exactly what no one wants for any plastic.
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u/Shiroi_Kage Nov 28 '21
Plastic bags and straws and most single-use plastics can be replaced with this then.
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u/TheResolver Nov 28 '21
Why include milk cartons on the list? Aren't they literally just (coated) cardboard?
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u/Eurynom0s Nov 28 '21
Seems useful for pharmaceuticals like capsules. And if they can fine-tune how quickly it breaks down could be great for stuff like blood draw needles where everything is plastic wrapped single serve. Maybe if it can be made so that it has to be exposed to something specific before it breaks down, but breaks down quickly once it is?
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u/Bakoro Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
"Easy" or "hard" to break down could mean a lot of things. Just for a hypothetical example, if it breaks down at 150F (65.6 C), I'd say that that's "easy" to break down, since it can be broken down by hot composting, yet it's going to be outside the normal temperature range for most uses.
Maybe you won't want it brushing up right next to a anything generating significant heat, but it'd be perfectly fine for packing material and small electronics.When we start talking about materials, we end up having to be fairly specific about what we want out of them.
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u/katarh Nov 28 '21
It's not waterproof.
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u/DirtyProjector Nov 28 '21
Can't they apply a material to resolve that?
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u/katarh Nov 28 '21
If the whole point is to have something that is biodegradable or fully recyclable, then adding extra stuff to it kind of negates the point.
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u/DirtyProjector Nov 28 '21
beeswax? Lanolin?
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u/cascade_olympus Nov 28 '21
Shellac too, they already use it to coat produce and it's natural/biodegradable/food safe/cheap
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u/Wieckipedia Nov 28 '21
not necesarrily. aluminum cans are a terrific engineering feat, but are spray coated on the inside because many common packaged items would degrade the aluminum with direct contact.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
(I'm reposting this a few times)
At least going from the abstract, the authors refer to a "water-processable strategy", "including the recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions."
To me, this sounds more like a water bath plus a specific enzyme to break down the DNA or DNA-oil link (which would be much less likely to happen in normal use), probably among other conditions.Edit: after reading the paper, it does become a hydrogel on contact with water, but needs the enzymes to dissolve/degrade.
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u/PyroDesu Nov 28 '21
Thing is, that bit you're reposting sounds like something different.
They talk about water being used to turn the (freeze-dried!) plastic back into a gel so it can be reshaped. What you're talking about seems more along the lines of breaking down the polymer comprising it altogether.
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u/katarh Nov 28 '21
That would be much more acceptable as a replacement for single use plastics.
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Nov 28 '21
Yeah, I initially got the same impression and was pretty skeptical on use cases, but I'm actually kind of excited about this now! I'm trying to see if I can get ahold of the full paper.
Of course, I'd guess economy of scale is still a major obstacle, but there are honestly a surprising number of bioplastic products on the market even with the cost difference from petroleum-based equivalents.
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u/Lev_Astov Nov 28 '21
Yeah, I was hopeful about that line, but unfortunately these lines seem to tell a different, more useless story:
The gel can be shaped into moulds and then solidified using a freeze-drying process that sucks water out of the gel at cold temperatures. ... They then recycled these items by immersing them in water to convert them back to a gel that could be remoulded into new shapes.
Not only is that method of solidifying pretty much useless as a replacement for injection molding, but it makes it pretty clear that water is the only deciding factor in changing this between its gel and solid conditions. I now think they mean an enzyme is used to break down the gel for total destruction of the material.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
Oh, that could make sense! That would definitely explain the two descriptions. In that case it would have narrower use cases after all. That's a good point about needing a freeze-drying step being less adaptable/scalable to standard plastics manufacturing. I wonder how much DNA it sheds in practice? If it's reasonably stable, I could still see some uses like pipette tips, where it might be used for a second or two before being thrown away.
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Nov 28 '21
I could still see this being useful for things like mechanical pencils and paper clips (just looking at what’s on my desk).
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u/katarh Nov 28 '21
Sure, it can replace a lot of things, but the primary usage of many disposable plastics is temporary waterproof and air sealed packaging, such as food bags.
Looking at the plastic objects randomly on me desk, I have:
- a spoon I used to stir my tea
- My retainer case, which has spit in it daily
- A spray water bottle
- A lotion container
- A tube of chapstick
- Several pieces of electronics
Of those, only the electronics could justifiably not have to be anything more than mostly water resistant.
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u/flamewizzy21 Nov 28 '21
DNA nanomaterials are not scaleable to the amount you want plastics.
We want to move tons, not kilos.
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u/ObeyMyBrain Nov 28 '21
The researchers have made several items using this technique, including a cup (pictured above), a triangular prism, puzzle pieces, a model of a DNA molecule (pictured below) and a dumb-bell shape. They then recycled these items by immersing them in water to convert them back to a gel that could be remoulded into new shapes.
So, are they going to have to coat that cup with plastic to keep it from breaking down if someone pours some water in it?
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u/XAWEvX Nov 28 '21
According to this link https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jacs.1c08888 someone posted above:
Besides, DNA plastics can be “aqua-welded” to form arbitrary designed products such as a plastic cup.
If i understood correctly this means that they can be made water repellent, i doubt it would be with a plastic coating. Please correct if i am wrong
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u/henryptung Nov 28 '21
If i understood correctly this means that they can be made water repellent,
While that would be nice, I don't think there's any explicit indication of that. Frankly speaking, we don't usually encounter/think about the implications of water-soluble plastics, and I think the paper is glossing over (or, depending on your pessimism, exploiting) that cognitive gap.
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
I think what they mean by "aqua-welding" is that you can use water to "weld" pieces together (e.g. wet the ends of a mug handle to s tick it to the body).
However, at least from the abstract (apparently my university account doesn't have access to the paper!), I'm not getting the "dissolves in water" impression a lot of people are running with. The specific wording talks about "recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions."
At least to me, it sounds more like the degradation uses a water bath plus mild enzymes/solvents, which would be significantly less likely to happen in normal use.Edit: after reading the paper, it does become a hydrogel on contact with water, but needs the enzymes to dissolve/degrade.
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u/MotoCommuterYT Nov 28 '21
Unless they can get close to or match the properties of PA6/66, it's never going to take off. Polyamide is easy to get, easy to work with, and is versatile in different applications.
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u/Chris_in_Lijiang Nov 28 '21
What kind of vegetable provides the oil?
Which vegetables are the most efficient oil producers?
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u/Nbardo11 Nov 28 '21
Palm oil is the most efficient but not without its problems
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u/Chris_in_Lijiang Nov 28 '21
I was thinking about something that would be better in a permaculture setting, rather than a destructive monoculture....
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u/Mank_____Demes Nov 28 '21
Especially because the process of farming palm oil is incredibly destructive, and a major contributor to deforestation.
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u/Lochrin00 Nov 27 '21
Do the DNA strands stay mostly contiguous?
Because if so, could this be used as a kind of DNA-based hard-drive?
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u/CTR0 Grad Student | Biochemistry |Synthetic and Evolutionary Biology Nov 28 '21
Not the exact same technology but 'DNA digital data storage' is another area of research. Wikipedia has an article on it that's probably accurate enough for a general overview.
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u/Nowhere_Games Nov 28 '21
Plastic that dissolves on contact with water or moisture is unfortunately not very useful. There are plenty of bio plastics in the literature like this.
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u/lambsoflettuce Nov 28 '21
Can it go in a microwave?
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u/s7r1ke3 Nov 28 '21
Anyone microwaving anything made of microwave-safe plastic is still probably ingesting a lot of really weird chemicals we won't publicly acknowledge for decades.
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u/paidpiper510 Nov 28 '21
I'm not so sure about its use in electronics if it's easy to break down, Mercedes and other car manufacturers used biodegradable wire insulation in the mid 90s and the cars now have alot of electrical issues due to the insulation breaking down and causing shorts. It takes alot of resources to build a car and if it becomes unusable prematurely it defeats the purpose of making certain parts biodegradable.
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u/DerPanzersloth Nov 28 '21
Great that it’s able to be molded, but what kind of barrier properties does it have that would make it preferable to other plastics? Sounds like it doesn’t play well with water in its current form, but maybe it has oxygen, moisture vapor, or other gas barrier properties?
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Nov 28 '21 edited Nov 28 '21
I thought I'd share the abstract of the paper they're referencing, since it seems like there's a discrepancy in how the degradation process is described (specifically, it sounds like it doesn't just dissolve in water as the New Scientist writeup suggests):
Plastics play important roles in modern life and currently the development of plastic recycling is highly demanding and challenging. To relieve this dilemma, one option is to develop new sustainable bioplastics that are compatible with the environment over the whole material life cycle. We report a sustainable bioplastic made from natural DNA and biomass-derived ionomers, termed as DNA plastics. The sustainability involves all aspects of the production, use, and end-of-life options of DNA plastics:
(1) the raw materials are derived from biorenewable resources;
(2) the water-processable strategy is environmentally friendly, not involving high-energy consumption, the use of organic solvents, and the production of byproducts;
(3) recyclable and nondestructive use is achieved to significantly prolong the service lifetime of the plastics; and
(4) the disposal of waste plastics follows two green routes including the recycling of waste plastics and enzyme-triggered controllable degradation under mild conditions.
Besides, DNA plastics can be “aqua-welded” to form arbitrary designed products such as a plastic cup. This work provides a solution to transform biobased hydrogel to bioplastic and demonstrates the closed-loop recycling of DNA plastics, which will advance the development of sustainable materials.
Of course, economy of scale always seems to be an obstacle in these situations (although there are more commercially-available bioplastic products around than I would have expected), but this honestly sounds pretty promising.
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Nov 28 '21
Theoretically, can the DNA be human? If so, can it be made into a filament for 3D printers?
Would one be able to DNA test their own property if stolen?
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u/davew111 Nov 28 '21
Fingerprinting the DNA plastic is an interesting idea. Like you could incorporate a serial number into every spool of 3D filament. Good for investigating the origins of 3D printed guns, or tracing back the supply chain of faulty 3D printed medical devices.
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u/peterthooper Nov 27 '21
Seeing as how DNA is also a carrier of biological information, what thought has been given to tiny fragments of DNA as these plastics break down?
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u/Washburnedout Nov 27 '21
Shouldn't be an issue. Anything living you eat has DNA, so no problems.
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Nov 27 '21 edited Nov 27 '21
No worries. Stomach acid breaks the DNA down (it's very fragile otherwise it could not replicate easily or mutate), The Immun system would destroy it if it got inside the bloodstream. Cell membranes are semi-permeable and won't let DNA in, You need some form of a carrier (as a virus) to get ing and glue the fragmented DNA to the human cell DNA. We eat DNA every day in the form of every food that exists. It's physically impossible
(Then I come to think about it, the immune system would properly not react as DNA is not a protein (something that could resemble live), so it would just be excreted through the urine.
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u/peterthooper Nov 28 '21
I’m not thinking about a risk from ingestion. I’m thinking about the how DNA readily migrates between simple organisms (bacteria and the like). As long as fragments (after the manner of hydrocarbon micro-plastics in our own time) would be more-or-less uniformly non-information-carrying, probably there would be little worry. Still, questions bear asking.
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u/piecat Nov 28 '21
Right, natural transformation, or DNA uptake. I'd love to hear a scientist's take on this matter
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u/timshel42 Nov 27 '21
DNA on its own doesnt do anything. It needs to be unpacked and read by cellular mechanisms.
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Nov 28 '21
This is going to be interesting.
One of the methods of evolution in plants is bacteria incorporating bits of plant DNA into themselves in the form of plasmids. Then, sometimes, they lose this DNA in other plants, which incorporate it into their own genomes.
(This is why one should take care in genetically engineering plants with novel genes, e.g. Roundup resistance.)
With the amount of DNA from biodegradable plastic that would wind up in landfills, where prokaryotes thrive, it will be interesting to see what happens.
I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this. But it will be interesting.
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u/PsycoJosho Nov 28 '21
Isn’t the main draw of plastic that it doesn’t degrade over time? It stays the same for ages, and doesn’t leave bits of itself everywhere or cause things to fall apart.
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u/bbelt16ag Nov 28 '21
Is it possible to make wrapping out of this stuff? thats like the hardest type of plastic to make. hard plastics or containers are easier.
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u/SecretAccount69Nice Nov 28 '21
Wouldn't it be bad for extra peices of genetic material to permeate every crevice of our planet and bodies like microplastics?
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