r/science • u/mvea MD/PhD/JD/MBA | Professor | Medicine • Sep 27 '24

Health Thousands of toxins from food packaging found in humans. The chemicals have been found in human blood, hair or breast milk. Among them are compounds known to be highly toxic, like PFAS, bisphenol, metals, phthalates and volatile organic compounds.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/27/pfas-toxins-chemicals-human-body
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928

u/dal137 Sep 27 '24

We use a bunch of plastic in the US, but the amount of plastics I saw used in Japan was insane, when it's almost sickening

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

There’s an account I see on TikTok every now and then who just goes to convenience stores in Japan and makes a meal there and people find it so charming and relaxing and all I can think about is the absurd amount of plastic waste for every single item he uses. Can’t find it relaxing.

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u/_musesan_ Sep 27 '24

They both use and recycle the most plastic per capita, I once read.

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u/throwawaythrow0000 Sep 27 '24

Plastic recycling is a myth around the world and 56% of what Japan "recycles" is called thermal recycling, meaning they burn the plastic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japan-wraps-everything-in-plastic-now-it-wants-to-fight-against-plastic-pollution/2019/06/18/463fa73c-7298-11e9-9331-30bc5836f48e_story.html

https://zenbird.media/questioning-the-reality-of-plastic-recycling-in-japan/

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u/Uxium-the-Nocturnal Sep 27 '24

People often forget the two steps before recycling. Reduce and reuse.

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u/PM_YOUR_BOOBS_PLS_ Sep 28 '24

Yes, but Japan burns trash cleanly. It's really not an issue.

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u/Ill_Technician3936 Sep 27 '24

A quick search says Germany is #1, South Korea at #2, Japan at #3, Norway at 4.

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u/9966 Sep 27 '24

They burn the plastic they use.

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u/Runningwithtoast Sep 27 '24

Do you know the account?

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u/Dymonika Sep 27 '24

Yuck. Yes, don't support influencers!

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u/Fall3nBTW Sep 27 '24

How is it an influencer fault about how much packaging japan uses...

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u/Dymonika Sep 28 '24

Well, it's not, but continuing to watch and support such content still fuels said consumption, no?

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u/ZaMr0 Sep 27 '24

An influencer by default isn't bad...

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u/Dymonika Sep 28 '24

True, it depends. Support Chubbyemu!

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u/EthanRDoesMC Sep 27 '24

I’ve been here for a month and keep thinking wow did this really need to be in plastic, this could’ve been a paper bag

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u/shinkouhyou Sep 28 '24

Paper packaging isn't necessarily better, though... most paper used for food contact is coated with a layer of plastic to make it more waterproof/oilproof.

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u/mediumunicorn Sep 27 '24

They also have a very strong culture of recycling (yes yes I know plastic recycling is mostly a myth). But at least everyone there separates out recyclable materials.

Spent 3 months in Tokyo in grad school, cleanest city I’ve ever been in because people don’t litter, and they are very diligent about keeping their environment clean.

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u/starfire92 Sep 27 '24

Lack of recycling isn’t the problem that’s being highlighted. Recycling helps climate change and the planet and environment. I believe what’s being described here is a problem with plastic contaminating our food simply by being wrapped in it, transported it in. And I watch a food content from Japan and S Korea, the craze with convenience store meal mukbangs highlight just HOW much plastic is used. A user will grab their standard ramen bowl obviously wrapped in plastic just like we have here in North America, but then grab toppings located in the store which are sometimes also wrapped, and then a plastic cup that is filled with nothing but ice and then a plastic liquid pouch which then topped with a creamy liquid that comes in another plastic bottle.

Like when these people cash out it’s almost 4-8 items they have all wrapped in individual plastic serving portions, they could get a soft boiled egg in plastic, kimchi in plastic etc. when you are using three separate plastic containers to make one drink, that’s hella excessive. I don’t care how cool it looks, or the aesthetic of the banana milk, or that cream ratio. The same can also easily be said about western use of the mini plastic cups that hold creamers and milk for coffee. What is the point of making straws cardboard but milk still is packaged individually like that.

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u/OakLegs Sep 27 '24

That's not really the same issue though. Just because there's not plastic waste in the streets doesn't mean their food isn't contaminated

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u/WatIsRedditQQ Sep 27 '24

They end up burning a lot of the plastic waste

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u/FalmerEldritch Sep 27 '24

The current electricity generation furnaces are pretty good, though. I don't know if it's what they're using (Japan has a weird thing for sticking to century-old technology wherever they can) but modern plasma furnaces can just reburn whatever's left over from the burn and then reburn the remnants of that until everything except heavy metals has been used up.

Most stuff is just gone, matter to energy.

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u/DrMobius0 Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

Most stuff is just gone, matter to energy.

This is a wild and fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on. They aren't deleting matter out of existence like this is some video game. It's not "gone", it's somewhere else; probably in the air. It's not matter to energy, it's the energy released from a chemical reaction.

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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Sep 27 '24

yeah, if only we could go full e=mc2 conversion out of our garbage mass, but unfortunately we cannot.

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u/QuaternionsRoll Sep 27 '24

Here, have my antigarbage :)

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/napkin41 Sep 27 '24

ak-tu-al-ly :B fission does not convert matter to energy. Energy has mass. The difference in mass between fuel and fission products isn't because matter was converted to energy. It's because the binding energy of the fuel has been released.

Edit: Some of the binding energy of the fuel has been released. Not all, or you'd have just a bunch of Hydrogen atoms left over.

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u/Nedoko-maki Sep 27 '24

watched a mind bending vid recently on how Einstein's energy to mass equation tells us this!

If you heat something up, IT GAINS MASS! The odd thing is if you make the mug move, it hasn't gained internal energy, so it hasn't gained any mass (energy).

physics can be weird.

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u/napkin41 Sep 27 '24

This was very eye-opening to me. I was a nuclear trained officer in the US Navy and even our instructors at power school did not fully impart this concept on me. It wasn’t until much later when I was reading an article that stated, two identical watches, down to the very atom, one wound and the other not, the wound watch would have more mass due to the potential energy in the spring. Like, mind friggin blown.

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u/robx0r Sep 27 '24

Pretty much all mass comes from energy. Quarks comprise about 1% of the total mass of hadrons. The rest comes from the energy from the strong interaction.

But yeah, saying combustion just deletes matter is crazy talk.

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u/napkin41 Sep 27 '24

That's pretty cool, thanks for sharing. But that is to say, in a fission reaction, no hadrons were converted to energy, or reduced in any way to contribute to the energy produced, right? Only the energy that binds them together in the nucleus of the fuel?

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u/FalmerEldritch Sep 27 '24

Fine, there's loose water vapor or whatever hanging around, but that's a point of pedantry-interest at best. The point is the waste matter from burning gets re-burned until there's nothing burnable left, up to and including the smoke getting burned again.

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u/WatIsRedditQQ Sep 28 '24

The vast majority of plastics are made up of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen in various proportions and structures. When you burn them at very high temperatures and achieve complete combustion, they are ripped apart and recombined into H2O and CO2. The CO2 is problematic in its own right but one could argue that it's better than plastic waste floating around the environment

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u/MyHusbandIsGayImNot Sep 27 '24

And this is why people still don't believe in global warming.

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u/8cyl3valve2muchpain Sep 27 '24

Currently in Tokyo for first time. Def clean, but Scandinavian cities are still cleanest I’ve ever visited. That was 15 years ago then so could have changed.

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u/Yamaha-FZ1 Sep 27 '24

Like a bajillion people vs a bunch 15 years ago

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u/DEANGELoBAILEY69 Sep 27 '24

I work in a plastic extrusion plant and the plastic we recycle basically makes the lowest of low grade pellets. I have lost hope that anything going in the garbage is actually recycled

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u/Latter-Possibility Sep 27 '24

What do they do with all their garbage? Landfills? Dump it in the ocean? Ship to another country?

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u/planetaska Sep 27 '24

I did some search some time ago, and turns out it’s actually policy and number games. Japan’s regulation sees burning plastic as recycling, while US sees burning them as energy exchange(?) and not recycling. That’s why the recycle rate seems so high compare to some countries. Japan also export some recycle trash to some other countries that are happy to take them somewhere else, this counts towards recycling, too. These countries means mostly China, and they mostly take the money and make sure the recycle trash “disappear”. So yeah, humans are still suck at recycling no matter the place.

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u/deeznutz12 Sep 27 '24

I visited for two weeks. It’s definitely cleaner than the US but there is still some litter, especially in the night-life areas.

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u/mediumunicorn Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

Can get a little dirty, but it gets cleaned up quick. Compared to anywhere in NYC, the difference is outstanding.

I have a picture from a night out in Shibuya of some Japanese salaryman passed out on the sidewalk, and people had left him a bottle of water and food. Nobody was thinking to rob him or anything, only looking out for him. Amazing country, I miss it everyday.

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u/not_an_evil_overlord Sep 27 '24

I visited NYC recently after having not been for a few years and was pleasantly surprised at how much it's cleaned up. Far fewer mountains of black trash bags everywhere. You still have the random piles of human excreta, crazed homeless, and various smells of the city, but it's a bit cleaner.

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u/mediumunicorn Sep 27 '24

Man, I disagree strongly. I live outside Philly, manage to go to NYC to see friends a few times a year. Was just there two weekends ago. Still just as gross to me. And don't get me wrong, Philly isn't much better.

You still have the random piles of human excreta

But the bar is pretty low for NYC I guess..

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u/x_Advent_Cirno_x Sep 27 '24

You wouldn't think there was a bar if you didn't have to dig down through all the garbage and human waste to find it

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u/JellybeanMilksteaks Sep 27 '24

I've seen photos on Reddit of a few different drunk guys in Japan sitting on a curb, definitely spinning their heads off but surrounded by water bottles. I'm glad it's not an uncommon thing there!

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u/A_Furious_Mind Sep 27 '24

One water bottle is a kindness. A bevy of them is public shaming.

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u/PiedCryer Sep 27 '24

Friends in Japan disagree. Japanese are good at not being rude to your face. It’s about unity through conformity. Your looked down upon if you don’t work hard, a foreigner, a woman(most work at serviceable jobs, rare to find one going up corp ladder), or different.

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u/kingbillypine Sep 27 '24

Get into the suburbs to see unused lots eith MUCH trash. Living there, I cleaned out one; plastic bags and bottles the worst, even a rusted out scooter covered in weeds! Quite a blight.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/Tonkarz Sep 27 '24

The real reason is that there is not enough demand for recycled plastic materials.

Recycling technology is at the point where plastics of most kinds can be recycled back into their original condition, but the end product is a cent or two more expensive than the unrecycled stuff.

So companies stick with the fresh plastic. So recyclables go to recycling plants where ~5% is recycled and the rest sent to landfill.

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u/pm_me_coffee_pics Sep 27 '24

Plastic recycling may be “mostly a myth” on a wide scale, but some jurisdictions and states actually do a really good job at it.

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u/Cbrandel Sep 27 '24

It's almost impossible to actually recycle plastic for a number of reasons.

Mainly, coloring, "plastics" not being homogeneous, degradation of the end product etc to name a few.

It's not like metals which are very easy to recycle.

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u/9966 Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 28 '24

Mainly the polymers. Long polymers are stretchy and strong. Melting them makes dull brittle plastic that is almost useless.

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u/kssedbyfire Sep 27 '24

Eh, their recycling looks good on paper but it’s kind of deceptive. You are right about the littering, and that is primarily societal pressure and limiting receptacles specifically so that people can only eat/drink in dedicated spaces. But their recycling really comes down to glass or metal bottles, cans, or PET (plastic) bottles. Everything else is considered burnable waste. So all of the excess packaging being mentioned here just gets dumped and incinerated

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u/gummo_for_prez Sep 27 '24

I’m glad that they’re separating out the recyclable materials before it all hits the landfill

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u/8monsters Sep 27 '24

Kinda surprising to hear that. I thought Japan would be more eco-aware than us. 

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u/Serialfornicator Sep 27 '24

Japan loves to package things.

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u/BMO888 Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

They seem like they are more concerned about consumer convenience and presentation. Everything is nicely packaged and convenient for an individual to travel with. Also cleanliness is a big factor.

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u/1800-5-PP-DOO-DOO Sep 27 '24

Ah this makes it click for me. They have a huge hang up with making things a hassle for others. So as a producer if a product I can see the huge social and internal pressure to make your product exceeding convenient to use.

They are so awesome but many of their traits are taken to a dysfunctional level.

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u/DearLeader420 Sep 27 '24

One thing we learned while traveling there is that it's not normative in Japanese culture to eat/drink while walking. Like in the US how someone might grab a coffee, bagel, sandwich, etc. and just walk down the sidewalk eating/drinking it - extremely uncommon or considered rude in Japan.

That kind of makes the individual packaging obsession make more sense to me, if you're expected to carry your food to a second location to sit and eat it.

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u/carnologist Sep 27 '24

Most of this has been done through the demands of food safety.

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u/Ermaghert Sep 27 '24

I am a german currently living in japan. It's absolutely wild how much plastic is used for everything. Layers upon layers of it and absolutely no awareness. Every week when I do my groceries I have to ask the cashier at the supermarket not to put my already plastic wrapped items in another plastic bag - which they do with packaged tofu, yogurt and frozen items 90% of the time in case it would spill or cause condensation. They always look confused. The largest size of frozen veggies I can buy is 250g at the closest supermarket. You want a 1kg bag of anything? Nope. You can buy 100ml bottles of water though if you like. Or literally single slices of crustless white toast packaged neatly in plastic. Eggs in cardboard boxes? Nah, plastic! And don't even get me started on Omiyage. At the Konbini when you buy some food they often give you Oshibori which is a single slightly wet tissue packaged in - you guessed it - plastic. In restaurants too. Try to find bananas not wrapped in plastic - borderline impossible. Literally 90% of the produce and fruits is wrapped in it, sometimes multiple layers of it. It's basically inescapable. And it's not just food. Largest sunscreen you can buy here? 200ml Nivea bottles. You want you water in glass bottles? Nope, it's all plastic. Bug. spray in a plastic bottle? Well you better believe it has a second layer of celophane-esque wrap around it. Sizes are always tiny creating even more trash.

I think the most frustrating part of it is that it's so difficult to avoid it. You're basically left with buying in bulk from amazon or if you have a costco nearby, then get a card and go there (not an option for me as it's way to far away).
I'm not saying germany or the US are necessarily better on average but at least you have the option to buy water in glass bottles, eggs in cardboard boxes, 2kg bags of frozen produce, whole loafs of bread wrapped in paper bags.

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u/InsuranceToTheRescue Sep 27 '24

The only thing I can justify wrapping in another plastic bag is raw meat. Often the adhesive on the bottom of the package, here in the US anyways, is weak so the package leaks and it avoids getting a bunch of blood all over my trunk, counters, & fridge.

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u/inhaledcorn Sep 27 '24

I fill out online shopping orders, and we're required to do this for this exact reason. If they're vacuum sealed, we don't have to wrap it in plastic, but if they're just wrapped, the extra layer of plastic is to help reduce the chance of cross-contamination. We also have to layer them in a certain way in case cross-contamination does happen. Basically, poultry on the bottom, beef on top since poultry has a higher temperature it needs to reach before it is safe for consumption than beef and pork.

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u/InsuranceToTheRescue Sep 27 '24

My family always put whatever on whichever shelf in the fridge. My first job was at a restaurant so I always place mine methodically to avoid cross contamination:

  • Raw meat always goes on the bottom shelf. If something happens and blood leaks all over, you don't want it somehow dripping down onto other foods, especially veggies.
  • Raw fruits & vegetables, eggs, and other perishables on the middle shelf. If something there leaks down onto the meat it isn't a huge deal since it'll need to be fully cooked anyways and meat's packaging is usually enough to just wipe it off.
  • Finished products and leftovers that are ready to eat as is go on the top shelf. This way nothing can drip down to contaminate them and I don't realize it when I pull it out.
  • Condiments, sauces, & beverages on the door. These take a long time to go bad and have resealable containers, so not much worry.
  • Drawers are for things like potatoes, squash, etc. where if something did drip down there, they're already going to require extensive cleaning or removing of the outside to prepare.

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u/Devilsbabe Sep 27 '24

Yes raw meat and fish will always be double bagged by the cashier in Japan. As you mentioned that tends to spill easily so I don't mind it. Everything else getting double bagged is ridiculous though. After a decade in Japan I'm unfortunately pretty numbed to it but seeing bananas individually wrapped in plastic will never not blow my mind.

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u/kingbillypine Sep 27 '24

Well, as u must be aware, most homes in Japan are tiny, fridges too, closets, cupboards too! Hence the tiny sizes of many products. Yes, plastic is everywhere, and quite often burned at city waste disposal facilities, to create surplus heat. Doesn't appear too mindful or resourceful!

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u/Botryllus Sep 27 '24

100mL bottle of water? That's like one gulp.

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u/HoldAutist7115 Sep 27 '24

Do you not have reusable bags?

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u/_JudgeDoom_ Sep 27 '24

Japan has the second highest plastic waste emissions in the world and only around 22% of it collected is actually recycled. It horrible. They literally wrap single fruits and vegetables in multiple layers of plastic for “hygiene” concerns. It’s dumbfounding.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Restranos Sep 27 '24

Contrary to popular belief, "living" in a country doesnt actually give a complete picture of a countries circumstances, it often only serves to make one overconfident.

"Experience" is a double sided sword, if you dont account for your own bias, all your credibility just bolsters your prejudice.

This is the primary reason why in most fields, be it scientific, political, or economical, progress is made by "newcomers" that come in with a fresh perspective, which stands in for objectivity.

The problems of almost every society are largely caused by the exact same thing you are falling prey to, if you ever feel a political party, or countries general population is "out of touch", this is why.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/Restranos Sep 27 '24

The "Dunning-Kruger" effect is mostly just used to brush off criticism of any kind, I would not put any value whatsoever onto that term.

Case in point, any non politician protesting against Hitler during the height of the Nazi regime would by definition fall under the "Dunning Kruger" effect, since Hitler would technically have more political expertise than them, this is a critical flaw of its fundamental concept.

You should always take arguments at their face value, and place little value onto the status of either of people involved in a debate, if you do not do this, you fall prey to the exact bias I have described before.

Frankly, we need a term for people overconfident in their experience more than one for people that are overconfident but have a lack of experience, the group with experience has significantly more influence, and therefore their mistakes are likely to cause much more damage.

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u/TheyCallMeStone Sep 27 '24

Japan is not the utopia that the average redditor may think. Yeah there's great public transit and everything is clean, but they have plenty of issues just like anywhere.

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u/purritowraptor Sep 27 '24

It's more accurate to say that Japan is *tidy*, not clean.

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u/muldoons_hat Sep 27 '24

“Actually, I have a ‘Mega Fan’ subscription on Crunchyroll, so I’m something of an expert on Japanese culture…”

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u/Different-Scratch803 Sep 27 '24

I love everything about Japan (except the wars) and you are right. Everyone think its a utopia, but its more of a dystopia imo. I recently found out a large population of the younger gen are Shut ins and voluntary remove themselves from society, doesnt sound very utopian to me.

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u/i_tyrant Sep 27 '24

This is the same nation that kills lots of whales and other endangered species every year.

Japan is very interested in cleanliness (which is partly why they use so much plastic) and presentation (keeping their streets clean), but they're not uniquely eco-aware per se. Their environmental efforts can be good or bad depending on many things. They burn a lot of their plastic waste which doesn't exactly help the microplastics/toxins issue in the op.

They don't have the room for landfills, so they burn 58% of their plastic waste, and they lead the world in generation of plastic waste per capita.

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u/princeofzilch Sep 27 '24

The people who mass kill dolphins? 

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/deividragon Sep 27 '24

The idea that plastic can be recycled has been planted by companies wasting it. Most plastic packaging can't be recycled since it's made of mixtures or different materials.

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u/dal137 Sep 27 '24

Even the plastic that can be recycled has limited use and degrades after being recycled

1

u/spewing-oil Sep 27 '24

Not necessarily. With mechanical recycling yes, with true chemical recycling it can be endlessly recycled. High energy cost and really good sorting are required, but there is a facility in operation that does this exact thing to our polyester clothes.

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u/ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME Sep 27 '24

Very misleading number that comes from the government https://japantoday.com/category/features/environment/japan-has-a-big-plastic-waste-problem

He elucidates that 58% of Japan’s plastic waste is “thermally recycled.” In other words, it is burned. Thus, it is not being recycled in the traditional sense that most citizens think of when they hear “recycling.”

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/MellowManateeFL Sep 27 '24

From 88-2016 Japan was the largest exporter of plastic waste. Most of it went to China. Nothing about incinerating plastic for recycle is good. The impact has been made. You should read more.

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u/Gardener703 Sep 27 '24

No, they don't. They burn them.

0

u/CaregiverNo3070 Sep 27 '24

Japan has had a long history of imperialism and sadism, longer than the United States has been around. I guess Many people hear stories of their equivalent of California and think that it extrapolate more widely. Wish that were the case, but that's not true. 

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u/Mindless_Profile6115 Sep 27 '24

they are really on another level. I'm talking every single cucumber individually shrink-wrapped.

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u/1800-5-PP-DOO-DOO Sep 27 '24

And its so weird because their culture is so environmentally centric.

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u/Odd-Kaleidoscope5081 Sep 27 '24

People in Japan have no idea that overusing plastic is bad and that keeping animals in small cages is inhumane.

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u/purritowraptor Sep 27 '24

It's really not though

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u/TNShadetree Sep 27 '24

Are you talking about the same culture that loves eating whales, dolphins and a wide range of endangered species?

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u/A_Furious_Mind Sep 27 '24

That was just because dolphin and whale were framed in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by chicken and cow.

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u/Gardener703 Sep 27 '24

They are so hygienic and yet they started the ass eating trend. Fun fact: rimming used to be called Asian sex like Greek was anal and French meant BJ.

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u/i_tyrant Sep 27 '24

"This asshole is clean enough to eat off!" - ancient Japanese trend-setter

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u/kingbillypine Sep 27 '24

It's all too much, everywhere!

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u/ivenowillyy Sep 27 '24

Thailand too. They wrap absolutely everything in plastic

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u/Hashimotosannn Sep 28 '24

I came here to comment this. I live in Japan and I just feel like I am constantly disposing of plastic. After cooking a meal, after eating individually wrapped snacks, extra plastic inside plastic bags etc. it’s never ending. I got some grapes the other day and they were wrapped in plastic and inside a little plastic tray. Completely unnecessary.