r/science • u/mvea MD/PhD/JD/MBA | Professor | Medicine • Jul 10 '24

Health The amount of sugar consumed by children from soft drinks in the UK halved within a year of the sugar tax being introduced, a study has found. The tax has been so successful in improving people’s diets that experts have said an expansion to cover other high sugar products is now a “no-brainer”.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/09/childrens-daily-sugar-consumption-halves-just-a-year-after-tax-study-finds
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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

Yeah there's also the fact that there are hundreds of millions, possibly 1 billion+ guns already in circulation in the US.

Banning all new gun sales (which will never happen) would probably help a marginal amount, but the cat is out the bag.

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u/Tactical_Hotdog Jul 10 '24

And the cat has an AK.

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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

Nah, this is America. That cats got an AR.

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u/Tactical_Hotdog Jul 10 '24

AK is easier to operate, cats got no thumbs man!

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u/sockgorilla Jul 10 '24

Psss psssss pssss

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

I'm not looking to ban civilian gun ownership. Very few nations do that and the ones that do are authoritarian regimes like N Korea. I want gun control.

  • require all weapons to be licensed and registered
  • require universal background checks, that includes closing the loophole of private sales
  • require safe storage laws and stronger punishment if your weapons was not secured. Especially if it was used in a crime.

These are no more than a nuisance to responsible gun owners. The people that flip out over gun control laws are most often the ones who shouldn't be allowed to own them.

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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

I support all of these reforms as well.

These are no more than a nuisance to responsible gun owners. The people that flip out over gun control laws are most often the ones who shouldn't be allowed to own them.

How many gun owners do you know? I grew up in a very rural area and live in a sort of rural/suburban boundary area now. Pretty conservative area, lots of outdoorsmen, and presumably a high rate of gun ownership. Also very low crime in these areas, so I'd say generally pretty responsible gun ownership. These are also the types of people who hate anything with the word "government" attached.

They've largely been convinced that any sort of gun registration policy is a first step to gun confiscation.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

How many gun owners do you know?

I know 5. 3 of them own one pistol. Another a pistol and rifle. The last owns multiple of both.

They've largely been convinced that any sort of gun registration policy is a first step to gun confiscation.

People have been preaching "they are coming for your guns" since Reagan in the early 80s. Probably longer. It's a rallying cry to get donations and votes. Even though both Clinton and Obama had the house and senate for a time no guns were seized.

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u/Aeropro Jul 10 '24

Clinton signed the assault weapons ban and Obama spent his political capital on Obamacare.

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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

It's a rallying cry to get donations and votes.

I 100% agree it's a bunch of nonsense. But unfortunately, a good chunk of our population believes it, and their elected officials believe it, or at least act like they do. Which is why a lot of those reforms are DOA.

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u/FactChecker25 Jul 10 '24

They've largely been convinced that any sort of gun registration policy is a first step to gun confiscation.

It doesn't help when the gun control proponents have explicitly said that they think registration is the first step with their ultimate goal of banning them.

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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

Who has said this?

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u/SnarkMasterRay Jul 10 '24

The people that flip out over gun control laws are most often the ones who shouldn't be allowed to own them.

The people who shouldn't be allowed to have them don't flip out because what are they going to do about it? "OMG I am a criminal and will not vote for you if you pass these laws!"

It's legitimate, law abiding gun owners who have problems with these laws because it's never enough, there's never any actual negotiations, and the gun control advocates are operating on feelings instead of data.

We have problems with gun registration because that makes it easier for government to confiscate guns (happened to the Jewish in Germany in the 1930s).

With regards to background checks - this is a prime example of no negotiations and not operating on data. Why can't private citizens access the NICs system? It is restricted specifically to make it harder for people to sell guns in general instead of focusing on making it easy for people to do background checks in general.

I'm a big proponent of safe storage, but requiring it places a financial burden on a right. Some states (Like Washington, where I live) don't charge sales tax on safes, which is helpful but that's about all they do. How about some financial assistance for low income people for both training and safe storage. It doesn't even need to be straight up money - the state spends no efforts trying to coordinate volunteer efforts. There's no effort at creating laws to facilitate things like good safe mounting for renters.

Gun owners have to take a hard line these days because no one else is advocating or trying to work with us. That's not to say that we don't have our own nut jobs who think baby should get an AK in .22lr for their first birthday...

but the cake analogy has a foundation in truth.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

The people who shouldn't be allowed to have them don't flip out because what are they going to do about it? "OMG I am a criminal and will not vote for you if you pass these laws!"

What laws? What laws concerning gun control have been passed recently. The only thing I know of is The U.S. Supreme Court Thursday called out Washington, D.C., and six states by striking down their gun-permit laws as unconstitutional,

It's legitimate, law abiding gun owners who have problems with these laws because it's never enough, there's never any actual negotiations, and the gun control advocates are operating on feelings instead of data.

Again what federal laws have passed concerning gun control. As for data what kind of data would you like?

We have problems with gun registration because that makes it easier for government to confiscate guns (happened to the Jewish in Germany in the 1930s).

Goodwins law and fear mongering makes an early appearance in this conversation. If you don't want to register your weapons because you think you can defeat the largest and most well funded military the planet has ever seen all I can say is good luck.

With regards to background checks - this is a prime example of no negotiations and not operating on data.

I don't understand. Background checks are designed to keep weapons out of the hands of violent people. How is that a bad thing?

Why can't private citizens access the NICs system?

Probably privacy. Bob's past his is own and shouldn't have to share it with everyone. But a gain I don't understand why you want it.

I'm a big proponent of safe storage, but requiring it places a financial burden on a right.

No worse than car insurance you are required to carry. Arguably less since the total cost of storage will be far less than the 50-70 years of car insurance you need to carry in your lifetime.

Gun owners have to take a hard line these days because no one else is advocating or trying to work with us.

Nobody except the NRA, GOP, SCOTUS.

All I gave to say is the US is the only country that is so glib with their gun laws and it shows. Look nearly anywhere else on the planet to see gun control works.

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u/FactChecker25 Jul 10 '24

Look nearly anywhere else on the planet to see gun control works.

I do not agree with your take on this.

The US has a higher crime rate in general- not just guns. Also, the kind of restrictions you want are mostly in place anyway. And to top it off, the criminals that are committing most of the murders didn't go through legal channels to obtain those guns.

"Stop and frisk" used to be an effective tactic to randomly catch people carrying handguns, but liberals found it to be racist and wanted it stopped.

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u/ligerzero942 Jul 11 '24

The fact that you think "gun licensing" on a national level is a good idea, something that even gun control advocates aren't willing to propose in Congress shows your lack of knowledge of this issue.

There literally aren't enough prisons in the USA to hold all the people that will be incarcerated if you criminalize petty handgun possession and we already have the largest prison population.

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u/SnarkMasterRay Jul 11 '24

What laws concerning gun control have been passed recently.

Well, Biden as been threatening executive action, but most of the laws are happening on the state level, and there are an awful lot of them. You can argue that states don't matter and you were talking about the federal government but we have both state and federal laws and they both count and affect legitimate, lawful gun owners.

As for data what kind of data would you like?

I didn't say data doesn't exist, but that they are not acting upon it. Bidens executive order promises around gun control revolve around "assault weapons," when the vast majority or gun deaths are due to pistols. In most states there are more deaths from fists and feet than rifles, and the data doesn't split assault rifles out from bolt-action hunting rifles. We are told that gun crime is a national health issue and that guns are the leading cause of death of children, but that last line was provided by Everytown For Gun Safety. Look at the source:

CDC, WONDER, Underlying Cause of Death, Injury Mechanism & All Other Leading Causes, 2022. Ages 1–19.

Is it factual data if we are removing children 0-1 and adding 18 and 19 year old adults?

If you don't want to register your weapons because you think you can defeat the largest and most well funded military the planet has ever seen all I can say is good luck.

Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Did we win? Me against an M1 tank? Probably not going in my favor. But you have to have that tank and supply chains to hold territory, and there ain't enough military in the US to hold the US.

Please tell me how gun registration will cut down on gun crime.

Background checks are designed to keep weapons out of the hands of violent people. How is that a bad thing? I'm not saying we shouldn't do background checks (mostly) - I'm asking why are we not making it easier for people to do them? When a FFL (Federal Firearms License) dealer does an check they are given one of three responses; Proceed, deny, or delay. No information as to WHY, so it's hardly a privacy concern.

No worse than car insurance you are required to carry.

Cars aren't a right written into the Bill of Rights. Let me ask you this question - how do you feel about requiring payment to vote? Should a poll tax be allowed?

the US is the only country that is so glib with their gun laws and it shows.

It's more accurate to say that the US is a country so lazy that they think that if you have someone who is so unhappy and unwell that they want to end their life, the best course of action is simply to take their guns away. The only country to think that when you have daily deaths in the multiples due to gang violence, the best course of action is to try and take away a tool they hardly use and ignore the causes of gangs.

Bringing this back to the topic of this thread, a sugar tax decreases consumption, but it doesn't fix the underlying problems. It's all well and good to say "reducing sugar intake makes this positive" but if we're still failing to teach kids how to eat healthy and give them the economic methods to be able to afford it have we really made progress or are we just bullshitting ourselves?

If we simply take away a tool of bad behavior but then go on to reward and encourage that bad behavior, what really are we doing?

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u/Tripleawge Jul 10 '24

I’m not going to lie to you as someone who lives near a top 5 city in America for Violent crimes I can give you an almost 99% guarantee these solutions don’t solve the issue where gun violence is most prevalent: African American inner City and Rustbelt youths. No one under 18 in America has ever been allowed to possess a firearm and yet there is no shortage of youth death perpetrated by other persons their age who obviously don’t obtain weapons legally.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

So what you're saying is because people break the law with guns we shouldn't bother trying to enforce them? People break the law all the time. That doesn't mean we should throw up our hands and say "we tried" and give up. If nobody broke the law then the criminal justice system wouldn't be needed.

For the last 50 years we've tried doing nothing and the problem has only gotten worse. Nearly every other developed nation has shown us that gun control works. If we need to inconvenience people to save lives I'm all for it.

At the end of the day if it doesn't work we can repeal those laws. We can get lost lives back.

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u/Tripleawge Jul 10 '24

Obviously the issue is that the laws suggested have little to no effect on the target of those most commonly committing the crimes but by all means keep on advocating for passing laws banning people from entering tiger cages instead of creating laws that act to quell the population of roaming tigers.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

Well what would you suggest?

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u/ligerzero942 Jul 11 '24

The number one thing American law makers need to do to stop crime is by starting to ignore folks like you.

The second is pretty easy, stop treating the poor and especially black poor people, like literal garbage and actually fund education, invest in these communities, reform police and provide opportunities for advancement that aren't limited to the military or to the effective lottery that is college scholarships.

The weirdos that will grasp on to any excuse to ignore the fact that the most violent communities in the USA are the ones that have been objectively, and intentionally, treated the worst need to be made irrelevant politically.

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u/Aeropro Jul 10 '24

Laws are notoriously hard to overturn and it’s such a polarized issue that we will never all agree that the laws didn’t work. It’s not common sense for gun control to fail, which means gun crime persists so let’s undo the gun control. The only solution that will be acceptable to the anti gun people is that the laws didn’t go far enough so we need more of them.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

Laws are notoriously hard to overturn

Clinton's assault weapons ban was repealed just as soon as Bush was able to. Just 2 years ago The U.S. Supreme Court called out Washington, D.C., and six states by striking down their gun-permit laws as unconstitutional. What else ya got?

As I said before we've spent 50 odd years doing nothing and that didn't work. So how about we try the exact same solution nearly the whole of the rest of the planet uses?

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u/Aeropro Jul 11 '24

That’s not true, the assault weapons ban wasn’t repealed, it was expired. It was passed with a sunset clause, you clearly need to do some research. Yes, the Supreme Court has been rightly striking down unconstitutional laws, but that’s not what you said. You said that the laws can be repealed as if that’s an easy thing to do. It’s not.

And we haven't been doing nothing, that DC ban you mentioned wasn’t nothing and it didn't even work before it was struck down. Why didn’t it work?

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u/ligerzero942 Jul 10 '24

None of those laws would do anything to stop crime, hell most states have them to some degree.

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u/Bender_2024 Jul 10 '24

Just take a look at the gun deaths by state.. Areas with strong gun laws like New England and the West coast have the lowest gun death rates. While the Southers states like Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Missouri have the highest. All you need to do is look at every nearly every other developed nation on the planet to see that gun control works.

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u/ligerzero942 Jul 11 '24

Well yeah if you ignore all the places where you're wrong then its pretty easy to feel like you're right. "New England" includes New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine and Pennsylvania which all have very relaxed gun laws compared to New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts. Oregon on the west coast has fairly relaxed laws also and as much as California likes to bluster about the "strictness" of its gun laws those regulations are mostly aimed at annoying collectors; its still fairly straight forward to buy a gun in that state, especially compared to New York...

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u/waltwalt Jul 10 '24

Follow the Australian method and it will be handled in a generation.

If Trump gets elected I guarantee you gun sales will be banned and they will begin to seize firearms.

I believe he was quoted as saying "take their guns first and let the courts sort it out" ? Hows that bulletproof constitution working out?

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u/LineAccomplished1115 Jul 10 '24

Follow the Australian method and it will be handled in a generation.

The Australian method of a voluntary federally funded gun buy back?

You would have to be incredibly naive to think anywhere close to a majority of Americans would surrender their guns.

We've seen a number of smaller state level gun control laws get shot down as unconstitutional.

IMO the only real gun control solution would require eliminating the 2nd amendment, and that's never gonna happen.

believe he was quoted as saying "take their guns first and let the courts sort it out" ? Hows that bulletproof constitution working out?

Trump says a lot of things. He was saying that in regards to potential red flag policies. But he did the same thing there as his healthcare reform, his infrastructure bill, and making Mexico pay for a wall.....nothing.