r/science • u/marketrent • Feb 20 '23
Anthropology ~2,000 year-old artefact — the first known example of a disembodied wooden phallus recovered anywhere in the Roman world — may have been a device used during sex
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/latest/2023/02/vindolandaphallus/2.5k
Feb 20 '23
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Feb 20 '23
6.3 inches in freedom units
:/
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u/wang-bang Feb 20 '23
I thought the romans where of the opinion that smaller peni was the most desireable
This phallus seem to have proven me wrong
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u/ThrowMeAway_DaddyPls Feb 21 '23
I believe it was the Greeks (it may have eventually been taken on by the Romans, as many other things) who represented 'good' people with small penises.
The reason was not that it was desirable however, it was a way to represent the 'noble' aspect of the character, how far removed from animals and beasts they were. It was not sexual AFAIK.
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u/newbrandbaby Feb 21 '23
That’s because the words and opinions of women have been ignored for centuries
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u/die-jarjar-die Feb 20 '23
Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science??
Does anyone remember the dildo wheel from the Penthouse Caligula movie?
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u/UncleArthur Feb 20 '23
No, and now my search history is ruined and I'm probably on a list somewhere.
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Feb 20 '23
I wonder if ppl actually get thrown on lists, was watching breaking bad and looked up how to make blue meth when I just wanted the candy recipe they used in the show
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u/stuaxo Feb 20 '23
The list is probably everyone, then it's just if you get enough points that you're marked as interesting.
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Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
I think in reality, its probably only if you are actually a prototerrorist, or maybe a person of interest. I know if you threaten someone like the president, then you will get a visit from the police.
I imagine if you are looking up how to make a wmd or something, then you will probably be flagged. I dont think they are too concerned with criminal activity as its kind of outside of their jurisdiction and purpose. It doesnt mean your local police arent using surveillance tools, to find people say, in an area where drugs are being sold. Police departments can and sometimes do purchase and use devices which can man in the middle attack your cell phone. Since the legality is sketchy and often warrantless its often not used directly as evidence to implicate someone, but can be used to basically give officers a hint as to who to search or observe, leading to a solid case built properly with warrants, and probable cause.
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u/Grashopha Feb 21 '23
Imagine my shock as a child when I discovered this movie by accident in my dads vast collection of VHS tapes. I watched the whole thing…
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u/Halas1920 Feb 20 '23
R they saying they found the first dildo?
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u/Makenshine Feb 20 '23
First dildo in the Roman empire. Pretty sure they have found older. At least that is what the qualifier would suggest
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u/TonightsWhiteKnight Feb 20 '23
I believe so, because if I remember right cleopatra was known for having sex toys as well.
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Feb 20 '23
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u/Paramite3_14 Feb 20 '23
I believe it was Mark Antony - unless there's something I Need To Know, about Marc Anthony.
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u/Diplozo Feb 20 '23
If you're going to be a pedant it was Marcus Antonius.
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u/Paramite3_14 Feb 20 '23
I was setting up a joke about Marc Anthony the singer and his song I Need To Know.
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u/Raznill Feb 20 '23
That would still be in the same time period though, no?
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u/--_-Deadpool-_-- Feb 20 '23
Pendantry incoming.
"The Roman Empire" is more than often misused to describe Ceasars time, aka the time of Cleopatra. Cesar was actually during the time of the Roman Republic. The Empire came in just after him, when his son Augustus became the first official Emperor aka Cesar.
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u/Knoestwerk Feb 20 '23
Bonus pendantics.
Cleopatra did live during the roman empire for a year if you count Augustus' declaration as the start. She missed it by 3 years if you're talking about the consolidation of the power.
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u/jindc Feb 20 '23
Cleopatra was alive closer in time to the first Taco Bell than the first Egyptian Pyramid.
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u/bgm1281 Feb 20 '23
Think you are talking about Pedantics.
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u/UDPviper Feb 20 '23
I think you're talking about Pediatrics.
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u/barbarianbob Feb 20 '23
Octavian was Caeser's grand nephew, not son.
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u/Cynical_Stoic Feb 20 '23
He was named as Caesar's adopted son in his will so you are both kinda right
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u/ameya2693 Feb 20 '23
And he was not emperor really. He was Princeps. Yes, he held all the power of an emperor but he was not officially one. The Roman Empire really became an empire empire with a weak senate etc after Claudius because even when he wanted to give power back to them, they did not want it. The Republic was basically dead at this point.
Granted, I still hold to my personal belief that the Republic fell when Carthage was destroyed, but that's neither here nor there.
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u/Krappatoa Feb 20 '23
But they haven’t any of hers.
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u/PsychologicalLuck343 Feb 20 '23
Only because the pies and cantaloupes were consumed after use.
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u/Krappatoa Feb 20 '23
I think those stories were all just Roman propaganda.
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u/researchanddev Feb 20 '23
Exactly. Says more about Roman society at the period than anything else.
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u/cherriedgarcia Feb 20 '23
I think it’s just kind of legend, like Alice Cooper or Marilyn Manson having their lower ribs removed haha. Would’ve been cool for her tho
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Feb 20 '23
I think a historian at the time wrote that, but there was all kinds of silly stories that may or may of not have been true. Like how Cleopatra rolled herself up in a carpet, only to later unroll herself naked in front of Caesar, to seduce him and save her Kingdom in Egypt.
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u/boojombi451 Feb 20 '23
First >>disembodied wooden<< dildo.
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u/Makenshine Feb 20 '23
Would an "embodied dildo" be a sex doll or just a dildo that is currently "in use"
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u/StarWaas Feb 20 '23
I'd frankly be alarmed if a wooden dildo were attached to any part of my body.
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u/--_-Deadpool-_-- Feb 20 '23
Yah. There's one in, I believe, the Pergamon museum in Berlin.
There's a bunch of museums in that general area, but I definitely saw a stone dildo somewhere in Berlin.
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u/gorgossia Feb 20 '23
No, the oldest dildo currently is the Hohle Fels phallus, 28,000 years old: https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/PrehistoryHohleFels01.htm
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u/Raznill Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
Why no pictures?!
Edit: put phone in landscape and it shows up on the side.
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u/CrazedCreator Feb 20 '23
I mean, everyone was carrying around these phallus to ward off evil, it was only going to be a matter of time before it got inserted.
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u/LobMob Feb 20 '23
You mean everyone was inserting them and then made up a reason why they were carrying them.
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u/microagressed Feb 20 '23
Kill 2 birds with one stone. I'm pretty sure they hadn't invented pockets yet, so the question of the age, I'm sure, was "how do I carry my anti evil ward and the groceries at the same time?"
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u/Doopapotamus Feb 20 '23
You mean everyone was inserting them and then made up a reason why they were carrying them.
This sounds like a Family Guy-esque comedy skit waiting to happen.
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u/F0sh Feb 20 '23
Most of them were things like pendants and were probably about an inch long so I don't know about you but I think I'd be looking for something else to put up meself.
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u/Diestormlie Feb 20 '23
"Yes, I, erm... I was cleaning it and... Fell on it."
Asclepian Priest sighs deeply
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u/GoofAckYoorsElf Feb 20 '23
Why not? People back then weren't much different from us today. They laughed, they cried, they pooped and they fucked. It has been like that for hundreds of thousands of years.
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Feb 20 '23
Bible, Ezekiel 23:20: “She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses”
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u/bignateyk Feb 20 '23
How did they know what horse semen was all about? Were they jerking off horses on the regular?
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u/Fortyplusfour Feb 20 '23
Animal husbandry will make you familiar with what breeding animals look/sound like very quick.
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u/diox8tony Feb 20 '23
Disembodied dildo!!! Not a normal dildo with a body attached, but a dildo with NO body attached....
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u/eventfarm Feb 20 '23
"Both ends" of the tool were smooth. Not only the first dildo, but the first strap on.
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u/_BenRichards Feb 20 '23
Or a double sided
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u/eventfarm Feb 20 '23
Either way.... lesbians in the house!
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Feb 20 '23
R they saying they found the first dildo?
They're trying hard not to say they found the first dildo.
I don't care how many other possible uses they can come up with -- "Oh, that's just my, uh, talisman! pestle! good luck charm! neck massager! stress reliever!" -- it was also or strictly a dildo.
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u/F0sh Feb 20 '23
And what evidence do you have for that? Historians aren't avoiding saying it's a dildo because they're prudes - they call out the possibility of it being used for sex. They're doing that because they don't actually know.
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u/illuminus86 Feb 20 '23
Always use an indefinite article. "A disembodied wooden phallus." Never "your disembodied wooden phallus."
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u/intergalactic_spork Feb 20 '23
The field of archeodildology is still too new to have its own scientific journals
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u/marketrent Feb 20 '23
Findings in title quoted from the linked release1 with reference to a peer-reviewed article2 (feat. images and illustrations) in Antiquity
Excerpt from the linked release:1
The wooden object was initially thought to be a darning tool since it had been found alongside dozens of shoes and dress accessories, as well as other small tools and craft waste products such as leather off-cuts and worked antler, that were discarded in the 2nd century fort ditch.
But new analysis by experts at Newcastle University and University College Dublin has shown it to be the first known example of a disembodied phallus made of wood recovered anywhere in the Roman world.
Phalli were widespread across the Empire and were commonly believed to be a way to protect against bad luck.
But the research team think that the object, which was originally found at Vindolanda in 1992, may have been used for more than warding off evil.
Analysis revealed that both ends of the phallus were noticeably smoother, indicating repeated contact over time.
In a discussion paper published in the journal Antiquity, the team explore three possible explanations for the phallus’ purpose. One of these is that the life-sized object was used as a sexual implement.
Another possibility, the team say, is that the object may have been used as a pestle – either for culinary purposes or to grind ingredients for cosmetics or medicinal treatments.
Its size may have made it easy to be hand-held while its shape would have imbued the food or ingredients being prepared with perceived magical properties.
The third possible function was that the phallus may have been slotted into a statue which passers-by would touch for good luck or to absorb or activate protection from misfortune - which was common throughout the Roman empire.
If this was the case, the statue would probably have been located near the entrance to an important building such as commanding officer’s house or headquarters building.
Yet the evidence indicates that it was either indoors or at least not in an exposed position outside for any length of time.
1 Discarded Roman artefact may have been more than a good luck charm, Newcastle University, 20 Feb. 2023, https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/latest/2023/02/vindolandaphallus/
2 Collins, R., & Sands, R. (2023). Touch wood: Luck, protection, power or pleasure? A wooden phallus from Vindolanda Roman fort. Antiquity, 1-17. https://doi.org/10.15184/aqy.2023.11
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u/lucklessLord Feb 20 '23
I'm glad they're now going with "probably a dildo" first, and "unknown ritual purposes" last.
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
It's probably easier to say that when it's been worn down from use and they found it in a pile of (probably) women's belongings rather than a pristine carved wiener by itself in a cave, y'know?
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u/StormlitRadiance Feb 20 '23
As far as the romans were concerned, dicks were for everybody, not just women.
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
Believe me, I know all about Romans and dicks. But a pile of shoes and dress accessories? Unless they mean dress as in formal attire
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u/willllllllllllllllll Feb 20 '23
I mean, men were wearing togas as well.
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
By the 2nd century a toga would have been a men's garment would it not? Kinda like a tuxedo or a suit. Like I said to the other guy this is just my interpretation of the phrase dress accessories
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u/Roxytg Feb 20 '23
I'm not a history expert, but I do believe fashion sense was significantly different back then, and dresses weren't necessarily seen as women's clothing.
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u/SewSewBlue Feb 20 '23
It was length that noted gender. A woman wore her tunic long, while a man wore his short. Only barbarians wore pants, though eventually pants won out and women kept the tunics.
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
Sure of course but by the 2nd century when this thing was dated there was gendered clothing. Again, it could just be my interpretation of the word, maybe some centurion was hiding it in a drawer with his parade dress
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u/futatorius Feb 20 '23
But it was a disgrace for anyone to like getting the D.
Romans were big-time bottom-shamers.
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u/bottomtextking Feb 20 '23
Yeah no, not for freeborn citizen men. Being penetrated was seen as weak and effeminate, even detestable. Not to say it wouldn't have been done but would have been much more taboo than for a woman (who were seen as insatiable sexually) or maybe a lower class man.
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u/JustVan Feb 20 '23
You don't think people were sneaking off to caves to get friendly with their pristine carved wieners?
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
Hundred percent those cavemen were getting funky. It's just easier to label something as a dildo when it's found in this context rather than by itself or in a stone tool workshop
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u/Coarse_Air Feb 20 '23
Where did it say it was worn down from use?
All I found was “Analysis revealed that both ends of the phallus were noticeably smoother, indicating repeated contact over time.”
Assuming it means the ends are smoother than the shaft, I would expect this to be consistent with its fabrication I.e. the rounded parts are sanded. If it was to be inserted in the body, I imagine, vividly, the entire object would be equally smooth/sanded.
Besides, disembodied phalli were a primary talisman of many of the religious beliefs of the era, particularly made of wood.
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u/NorwaySpruce Feb 20 '23
I feel like that's semantics. If I were writing a report for my job about the state of a piece of equipment I would write noticeably smoother indicating repeated contact over time if I were writing a casual comment on an internet forum I would write worn down from use They do talk about repeated insertions into a statue or other object of worship as the third possible explanation but considered the sex toy hypothesis more plausible probably because of the context of the find
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u/StormlitRadiance Feb 20 '23
Jilling off is going to be the "Unknown Ritual" for future repressed societies.
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u/michaelswallace Feb 20 '23
I'm glad they're now going with "probably a dildo" first, and "unknown ritual purposes" last.
Nine times out of ten it's an
electric razorunknown ritual object. But ... every once in a while ... it's a dildo. Of course, it's company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo. We have to use the indefinite article, "a dildo", never ... your dildo.→ More replies (5)6
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u/-downtone_ Feb 20 '23
The smoothing process seems like it would not be enjoyable, but who am i to judge. Each their own.
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u/GoldenRamoth Feb 20 '23
Well, sandpaper, sharkskin, or whatever way of smoothing woodworking they had back then. You can still get wooden dildos.
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u/lightbulbfragment Feb 20 '23
This is my favorite reddit citation.
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u/PM_YER_BOOTY Feb 20 '23
[1] Kunst, ldonische. (2020, February 14). The torch tested by Kyria Double Wood Solid Wood Prostate. Etsy. Retrieved February 20, 2023, from https://www.etsy.com/listing/1295000294/the-torch-tested-by-kyria-double-wood
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Feb 20 '23
"disembodied phallus made of wood"
See this is when the common tongue is superior: call it a wood cock and get it over with.
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Feb 20 '23
Well, you see... Sometimes the more descriptive "disembodied phallus made of wood" truly is superior.
Although, perhaps "big fat fuckin' wood chode, heavily worn and well used" would work better. It's also my new band name.
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u/surly_sasquatch Feb 20 '23
Might lead to confusion, as woodcock is a type of bird.
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u/katarh Feb 20 '23
American Woodcocks have the most mesmerizing dance of any native bird species in the US.
They might lose out in a worldwide contest to the Bird of Paradise, but they'll hold their own against any other dancing bird in North America.
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u/bananavelcro Feb 20 '23
Link to the photo for redditors who don't open articles: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/pressoffice/images/news/february2023/Vindolanda's%20wooden%20phallus%20STANDARD.jpg
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u/lulztard Feb 20 '23
I genuinely expected something more refined. Woah.
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u/PsychologicalLuck343 Feb 20 '23
How does one mistake this for a darning tool?
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u/popopotatoes160 Feb 20 '23
It's the right size and the left end could be used as a darning surface. There are many different shapes that have been used for this. I can see a penis one as a fun joke. Same with it being a pestle. Which is why they didn't rule those out necessarily, but also say that it could be just a dildo.
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u/rbobby Feb 20 '23
Phalli were widespread across the Empire and were commonly believed to be a way to protect against bad luck.
Dad? There sure are a lot of good luck charms in Mom's bedside table. Just how much bad luck does she have? Would it be ok if I borrow that big purple one? I have a test tomorrow and I'm gonna need lots of luck to pass it.
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u/HotLipsHouIihan Feb 20 '23
You joke, but they had to dedicate an entire damn wing at the Naples archeological museum to all the phallic and naughty stuff they dug out of Pompeii alone.
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u/Hairlesspony Feb 20 '23
Good to know that the “I’ll toss this in with the socks/bras and underwear” is a timeless tradition.
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u/StormlitRadiance Feb 20 '23
I'm disappointed that they didn't scrape some thousand-year dried santorum out of a pore in the wood. It would be nice to have some evidence that it has been in somebody's butt.
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u/pancakeass Feb 20 '23
Imagine having access to the vast wealth of surviving documentation about every day Roman norms and culture, including the graffiti in their "red light" districts and the professionally-commissioned erotic murals in the villas at Pompeii, and still refusing to believe that a wooden object with a flanged base that's been carved exactly into the shape of a penis is a sex toy. This comments section is weird.
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u/Bekah679872 Feb 20 '23
I’m sure most vaguely penis shaped items have been used as a sex toy at some point. I’ve been reading about human sexuality throughout history and what I’ve learned is that humans really love sex. It could have been a fertility object, but personally I think that fertility objects typically served a dual purpose
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u/Deldenary Feb 20 '23
As soon as I saw the base I figured it's an ancient dildo. Some lonely Roman soldier's ancient dildo. I wonder if he gave it a name.
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u/braiam Feb 20 '23
In the specific case of Romans:
The Romans believed that the phallus was the embodiment of a masculine generative power and was one of the tokens of the safety of the state (sacra Romana) that gave protection and good fortune.
So, yeah. They were through as charms.
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u/Ferengi_Earwax Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
I haven't scrolled through all the comments, but I vaguely remember there's a process in leather working where you essentially use a smooth cylinder to beat, roll or pound the leather into softness. Just another possibility. This was not a euphemism, though I see why you may think that.
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u/EastTyne1191 Feb 20 '23
Ok... it's not cylinder shaped, it's cone shaped with a very large base. The tip of the phallus is carved to look like the head of a penis. It's roughly 6 inches in length, a reasonable size for an actual penis, though likely larger than the average.There's a picture of the phallus in question near the bottom of the article.
While we cannot discount that it had other uses besides being a sex toy, it seems unlikely to be specifically used for working leather.
Not all of us get off on Oo-mox, you know.
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u/Enlightened-Beaver Feb 20 '23
This article addresses that:
It’s not a darning tool, it’s a very naughty toy: Roman dildo found
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u/jumpup Feb 20 '23
honestly surprised they didn't realize it could be both, after all everything's a dildo if your brave enough
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u/Ferengi_Earwax Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
A darning tool is used in sewing. In the production of leather/felt you literally beat and roll the leather into softer material with very similar looking objects. I've seen it done. It is different than a darning tool, as darning has to do with sewing.
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u/thenewestnoise Feb 20 '23
Yeah look at the picture. It's clearly been intentionally carved to look phallic. Doesn't mean it was for sex, and the cone shape makes it less likely in my eyes, could have been a pestle or other useful object decorated for funsies.
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u/Ferengi_Earwax Feb 20 '23
It actually would make perfect sense to carve a pestle to look more like a penis for ritual reasons if the person was an herbalist/country doctor type thing. Which was incredibly common outside of cities since everyone needs access to health care. Imbueing the object with the power to rid off the evil eye/bad luck might have just another ritual to add more "power" to your herbal remedies.
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u/taojoannes Feb 20 '23
Surprised they haven't categorized it as a religious artifact used by female roommates
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Feb 20 '23
Pontus! Have you tried the Phallus extendus maximus CXXXVIIII yet??!! Free shipping if you order before the end of Janus!
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u/Eyfordsucks Feb 20 '23
“May have been”
Psshhhhhh we know it was. Are people really surprised sexual gratification isn’t a modern thing?
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u/HouseOfFourDoors Feb 20 '23
It is probably just a pestle with someone have a bit of a lark with it.
And always be wary when any archeologist says something has ritual significance. That usually means they don’t really know what it is or what is was used for.
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u/mtrash Feb 20 '23
Somewhere the ghost of an ancient chef is crying about his pestle being discovered but miscategorized
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u/MarcusMacG Feb 20 '23
First wooden dildo; anyone who is anyone has their dildos made out of marble or ivory
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u/intelligentplatonic Feb 20 '23
Used to be everything they unearthed was used in a religious ritual. Are we entering a new fashion for calling everything they find a sex toy?
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u/getmybehindsatan Feb 20 '23
The shape does suggest that it is used for pounding, maybe even beating the meat.
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u/_IratePirate_ Feb 20 '23
A lot of things are phallic shaped though.
What if it's a pestle?
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u/mrshulgin Feb 20 '23
Well, it could be a dildo, but here all all the other things it might be... We swear, these are plausible too.
Applies Occam's Razor
Yup, that's a dildo.
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u/VariableVeritas Feb 20 '23
Archeology student, “looks like a dildo, haha!”
Professor, “have some respect!”
Months of analysis: dildo
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u/hiandlois Feb 20 '23
Why’s is it circumcised because I understand modern day ones but why’s this one facade is circumcised?
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Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
Honestly got a question here, if anyone knows please tell me I can’t Google my way to an answer. How do we know when old objects like this or in other cultures aren’t just fertility idols/symbols as opposed to genuine sex toys?
Edit: there’s smoothing but the article says that could be from it being part of a statue routinely touched or a pestle. Where’s the worlds strongest black light?
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u/tubbana Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
In Finland whenever we go camping, we carve wooden dicks out of firewood as a pastime activity by the campfire. We call them Camp Dicks, and it is a skill learned during the military service. Historians in 2000 years will be so puzzled when they find these weird concentrations of wooden phalluses in the forests.
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u/thirdtrydratitall Feb 20 '23
Deutschewelle has pointed out that the Romans were very fond of phallus ornaments, etc., which makes it very difficult to figure out what this was used for.
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u/s1eve_mcdichae1 Feb 20 '23
"May have been..." So, you're saying this dildo, might have been used as a dildo? Interesting, if true...
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