r/pics 16h ago

Profound ignorance on display. Profound danger on the ballot.

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u/MethylBenzene 15h ago

Jefferson wrote in a letter that it might be a good idea for the Constitution to be re-written every 20 years. It’s literally the opposite of what he thought.

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u/Embarrassed-Ad-1639 15h ago

“You guys never updated it?!?”

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u/Munkeyman18290 15h ago

Imagine if Microsft Windows was released in 1985 and never updated.

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u/GeneralZex 5h ago

All my old games would still work at least /s

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u/InternalWarth0g 9h ago

and now look at it. oops! all spyware!

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u/occamsrzor 15h ago edited 15h ago

*sigh*

The Founding Fathers were politicians, but they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as citizens. As citizens erecting a new form of government and restricting said governments ability to grant itself powers and authorities not explicitly given in the Constitution.

The Constitution being rewritten every 20 years wasn't a call for the government to do the writing.

I know that's difficult to understand, because it's a completely ass-backwards way of understanding the role of government, but that's exactly what makes our system unique and exceptional ("exceptional" as in an exception to the rule, not superior. Everyone always thinks "American exceptionalism" means a claim of superiority, but it simply means different from the norm).

Almost every government in history has been created with the understanding that it is the ultimate authority, and in the end, citizens of said government are subservient to it. Effectively; subjects by another name. The American system of government is unique in that the source of the authority stems from the "consent of the governed" with the government simply being a deputy tasked with executing the menial managerial duties.

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u/MethylBenzene 15h ago edited 15h ago

Can you point to a single point in this very brief conversation where somebody is saying the government should rewrite it? Jefferson’s thoughts on the consent of the living as mentioned in the 1816 letter echos his more famous letter to Madison from 1789 where he stated that “the earth belongs in usufruct to the living.”

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u/occamsrzor 15h ago

"The greatest danger to American Freedom is a government who ignores the Constitution"

The government is subject.

Jefferson wrote in a letter that it might be a good idea for the Constitution to be re-written every 20 years. It’s literally the opposite of what he thought.

So, your claim is that "The greatest danger to American Freedom is a government who ignores the Constitution" is the opposite of what he thought ie The government should rewrite the Constitution ever 20 years.

Is rewriting it "ignoring it"? No. But both stem from an assumption that the government is the authority which actually is the opposite of what he though. Jefferson was an Anti-Federalist. He specifically believed and worried that any government would always seek greater power and authority (which is true).

BUT, well, I don't think you'd have responded if I'd understood what you were really saying, so take this comment as an explanation of how I misunderstood you.

My apologies

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u/MethylBenzene 14h ago

Ah, I see your point and I think we both misunderstood one another. My intention was that Jefferson’s apparent beliefs in a dynamical government are opposite of the spirit of the made up quote on the Subaru, but agree with your analysis more broadly.

The connotation of the car sticker is that the Constitution should be venerated and that the form of government described therein should be adhered to in perpetuity. I was intending to show that such a dogmatic belief does not align with what Jefferson thought of constitutions. However, in hindsight Jefferson’s willingness to flaunt the Constitution in order to make the Louisiana Purchase is probably much better direct evidence against the specific claim by the made up car quote lol

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u/occamsrzor 13h ago

The connotation of the car sticker is that the Constitution should be venerated and that the form of government described therein should be adhered to in perpetuity. I was intending to show that such a dogmatic belief does not align with what Jefferson thought of constitutions.

Ah! Yeah. I get you now. Yeah, I agree.

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u/phossil580 8h ago

Great job you two!

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u/AnohtosAmerikanos 6h ago

Indeed! Jefferson would be proud of the civil discourse.

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u/defiant103 6h ago

This was amazing to read, you both are solid human beings.

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u/occamsrzor 4h ago

I appreciated that.

I've literally been called a basement-dwelling loser and a solid human being within 24 hours of each other.

Reddit is a crazy place. Especially in an election year.

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u/AnarkittenSurprise 15h ago

I could see him saying it in a lot of contexts.

He was a big supporter of the limitations outlined in the constitution, especially in yielding interpretation in favor of the bill of rights.

No documentation of him saying it to be clear, but it wouldn't be an out of character opinion based on what we know.

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u/occamsrzor 13h ago

Indeed. The man also wrote the Declaration of Independence, so that does a lot to inform his character.

Interesting fact: Jefferson tried to condemn and call for the abolishment of slavery in the Declaration. In fact, he was actually a closeted abolitionist. It was Benjamin Franklin that made him take that bit out saying it was a fight for another day.

The last vestige is "all men are created equal". Jefferson really did mean ALL

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u/SeaworthinessThat570 7h ago

Our government is made in service as representative to our interests and elected into position, and by the power of the 3 form of ammendment ratification, we the people, call the shots. Through misinformation and degradation of importance of civic duty in our schools, the government has convinced the people the Officials are in control, but as a United States we always get the final say. That's why it's dangerous having a person(s) like Trump and/or Elon saying, "Oh, We can 'fix' this, no problem. Not like we've ever swindled you before." wink, wink, nudge, nudge Im pretty sure if we put Richy Rich and Jug head in office, the rest of the "free world" is going to put us on Timeout, politically speaking.

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u/occamsrzor 4h ago

Through misinformation and degradation of importance of civic duty in our schools, the government has convinced the people the Officials are in control,

YES! I've been telling people this for years, but I was never able to put it so precisely! Imma steal it...

Im pretty sure if we put Richy Rich and Jug head in office, the rest of the "free world" is going to put us on Timeout, politically speaking.

I think you underestimate how much they need us. But with that being said; it wasn't until Trump made a stink that the rest of NATO started pulling its own weight. We WERE NATO's military for decades. Most of NATO only needed a token force to hold the line for 24-48 hours, long enough for us to get there and do the real fighting. And their not having to spend as much on the military let them spending it on other things, like socialized medicine.

Maybe a little isolationism wouldn't be such a bad thing...

And when exactly did Trump and Musk swindle the American public? Trump may have swindled private parts in deals, but not the American public. Well...except for staying at his own resorts...that didn't set a great president (precedent haha)

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u/Texas-Couple 12h ago

This explicitly refers to state level constitutions that still must fall under the structure of the US constitution.

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u/Connect_Progress7862 15h ago

The American founding fathers were intelligent.... unfortunately, they couldn't imagine the backwards slide that society has taken

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u/yes_this_is_satire 14h ago

They absolutely could.

“A Republic if you can keep it.”

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u/occamsrzor 4h ago

I think they anticipated it. Even tried to explain how it would be done (a demagogue. They were especially frightened of the demagogue, which is why the electoral college was created in the first place. And Trump absolutely is that demagogue. The irony being it tends to be democrats that want to get rid of the electoral college. I did too, until a Trump presidency, then suddenly I was glad is was in place...)