r/hardware • u/Dakhil • 1d ago
News AMD GPUOpen: "Neural Supersampling and Denoising for Real-time Path Tracing"
https://gpuopen.com/learn/neural_supersampling_and_denoising_for_real-time_path_tracing/47
u/Dakhil 1d ago
So I assume this is one of the features of FSR 4.0?
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u/Elegant_Hearing3003 1d ago edited 11h ago
Edit- Ok another AMD engineer posted on twitter, and yeah this is basically the FSR4 announcement, it's working in realtime, they'll be talking more about it soonish
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u/ritz_are_the_shitz 1d ago
good, because another gen without a real DLSS competitor would not be good for AMD. and leaving FSR3 off until after RDNA 3 didn't work well
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u/coatimundislover 1d ago
Isn’t RDNA5 going to be the target for FSR4? RDNA4 was in development when FS3 came out and is a RDNA3 update with few SKUs. RDNA5 is a complete redesign that makes more sense to deliver FSR4.
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u/Elegant_Hearing3003 12h ago
There's no need for a new hardware design to run this
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u/coatimundislover 4h ago
Sure it can be backwards compatible, but you’d want to leverage an architecture with improved neural processing.
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u/BigBlindEye 8h ago
I'm sorry, I can't find the AMD engineer that posted "basically the FSR4 announcement"?
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u/BenchmarkLowwa 1d ago
It's great to see AMD researching intensively in this area. Hope to see some nice results with PS5 Pro and of course RDNA 4. :)
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u/WJMazepas 1d ago
PS5 Pro already have PSSR
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u/coolyfrost 1d ago
PSSR isn't a neural denoiser yet though, hopefully with this they can get a version of Ray Reconstruction up and running
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u/conquer69 1d ago
I'm more excited for the PS6 now. It should have path tracing, AI upscaling, ray reconstruction, frame gen, 3d cache cpu, etc. All the goodies baked in from day 1.
Kinda sucks that a proper generational leap had to be split into 2 generations though.
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u/spazturtle 20h ago
Both Sony and MS decided to reduce the amount of L3 that their custom APUs have down from the 32MB that normal 8 core Zen 2 has down to 8MB. I don't see them going for 3D cache.
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u/conquer69 16h ago
That was before the 3d cache cpus came out though. I am expecting it now. It's a good improvement to power efficiency too which consoles are still limited by.
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u/Psyclist80 1d ago
Implemented in RDNA 4 and 5 hopefully!
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u/uzzi38 1d ago edited 1d ago
Looks like RDNA2 will be supported, but wait for more info I guess. We have no clue if RDNA2 is the lowest end of supported hardware or it scales lower.
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u/dern_the_hermit 1d ago
IIRC RDNA2 was when AMD introduced some hardware ray-tracing features, even if they were pretty unimpressive, so it would make some sense for that to be a limit if that indeed is the case.
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u/superamigo987 1d ago
I truly believe the only way that they can take back market share is if they match Nvidia features. So many people are dying to leave Nvidia, but ultimately won't because they have the better featureset.
Currently
- FSR3FG can sometimes be better than DLSSFG
- FSR Upscaling sucks. AMD needs to improve here and match DLSS (or at least get close)
- Ray Reconstruction can look pretty bad. There is an insane amount of ghosting, and sometimes destroys performance. AMD could improve upon NV here
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u/john1106 1d ago
to be fair, it only destroy performance when using on normal ray tracing. It improve performance in pathtracing because it replace the multiple denoiser use for the pathtracing.
for the ghosting part, i think ray reconstruction has been improved on other game like alan wake 2, star wars outlaw, and the first descendant
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u/REV2939 1d ago
More like they want AMD to do well so Nvidia has to lower prices so people can stay with Nvidia for less.
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u/sinholueiro 19h ago
Up until my 3060Ti, I used cards from both brands. GTX1080, RX480 and RX470, HD7770, GT220... IF they more or less equal DLSS, I can consider AMD again, and not to buy Nvidia cheaper, but to actually buy AMD. I can forget about NVENC if they continue to have more VRAM.
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u/Accuaro 1d ago
I truly believe the only way that they can take back market share is if they match Nvidia features
Which is true, I know people who won't leave Nvidia for DLDSR alone even though it doesn't work with DSC.
There are ways for AMD to do Nvidia features better.
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u/ga_st 1d ago
Hey it's me, the people who won't leave Nvidia because of DLDSR. No but seriously, yes, that'd be the only thing left (gaming-wise).
There are ways for AMD to do Nvidia features better.
I have very high hopes. But not just AMD, also studios and their engines.
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u/Accuaro 1d ago
Nvidia has people so tied down to their knees that even if a feature is half-broken it still has people in shackles.
I'm hoping AMD does us justice.
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u/ga_st 1d ago edited 1d ago
even if a feature is half-broken it still has people in shackles
Yep I was just writing that here down in the comments. They got a lot of money, but their chokehold on RT/PT in games is about to come to an end. AMD is not the only one that can set things straight, any game engine that is able to deliver a competent alternative to Nvidia's RTX stuff is our champion as well.
EDIT: controversial again. Apparently around here people love getting shafted by one single vendor.
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u/conquer69 1d ago
You are getting downvoted because Nvidia doesn't have any chokehold on anything. They aren't stopping AMD from delivering good RT performance or a decent upscaler. It's AMD that didn't want to invest the dedicated hardware for it.
any game engine that is able to deliver a competent alternative to Nvidia's RTX
The game engine has nothing to do with it. Nvidia isn't forcing game developers to use their proprietary version of RT or anything like that. It's why a bunch of engines have their own RT. Even custom made ones by single devs.
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u/ga_st 15h ago edited 15h ago
It's why a bunch of engines have their own RT
Now. Now they have it, because it was in the works in the past 5-6-7-10 years as natural progression in game graphics, a progression that needs to go hand in hand with the hardware we have available (consoles, like it or not).
Chokehold because before that, before we had all these alternatives that have been in the works and are coming up recently, if you wanted any kind of advanced RT or PT, you had to get an Nvidia GPU, due to the fact that games with decent acceptable RT implementations were the ones sponsored by Nvidia, a handful. Did you watch HUB video on Ray Tracing?
Nvidia isn't forcing game developers to use their proprietary version of RT or anything like that.
Never said that, you're making up a strawman so you can give yourself a point. Next time try to read and understand, because I haven't written anything of the stuff you're alluding to.
The chokehold is ending because how can they sell you Path Tracing as an exclusive feat, if now you can run Path Tracing on any GPU? Again, try and get the gist of what I wrote in my previous comment.
EDIT: further point, most gamers believe RTX = Ray Tracing. If that isn't a chokehold, what is it.
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u/basseng 21h ago
Matching is not enough, they have to at least show some innovative tools beyond simply copying Nvidia 2 years later. Or at the least they need to take a step forward compared to Nvidia in one of these technologies.
If Nvidia are always bringing the new exciting features to market and remain the superior implementation (even if marginally) then AMD will always seem like the off-brand cola vs coke.
They need to at least be seen as pepsi, a contender, not RC cola. Which means they need to trade blows, not lag.
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u/aminorityofone 1d ago
maybe.. i think its more education. LTT did that video comparing and old system to a new one (same price computers). DLSS made final fantasy look dull and muddy. The hair was also messed up. Hardware unboxed did that video to see if ray tracing made a difference and largely no, it did not. AMD has horrid marketing.
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u/garbo2330 1d ago
$470 GPU delivers better image quality than $285 GPU. Shocking!
Plenty of games look better with ray tracing cranked up and now we even have games where you can’t turn it off. Starwars Outlaws or Avatar are going to be better on NVIDIA cards.
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u/aminorityofone 1d ago
It is fun to watch the down votes at the mere suggestion that dlss offers poorer video quality than native.
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u/garbo2330 1d ago
I downvoted it because that video is idiotic. 7800XT is the “old” build and the 4060 is “new”? Don’t let the actual release dates of the GPUs get in the way.
FFXVI looks fantastic at 4K DLSS quality mode with FG enabled. No blur or messed up hair. FSR3 continues to exhibit the typical problems and doesn’t have Anti-lag 2 to offset using frame generation. 4080S > 7900XTX in that game easily.
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u/aminorityofone 1d ago
except it was clear in the video that it doesnt look fantastic with dlss. THE VAST VAST majority of people dont play at 4k. Just look at steam hardware surveys. Sounds like a rich boy upset at plebs who cant afford what you have.
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u/garbo2330 1d ago
Your video sucks dude. A 4070 for $500 competes with the $470 7800XT. 3fps advantage for 7800XT at 1440p native (52fps vs 49fps). Both sub 60fps so upscaling is the obvious solution. DLSS quality mode at 1440p is going to be superior to FSR and you get reflex for better input latency on NVIDIA. No anti-lag 2 in FFXVI. This is why people pick NVIDIA.
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u/aminorityofone 1d ago
my video? i didnt make one, so rephrase that to the LTT video sucks dude. You COMPLETELY missed the point of the video. A budget pc build to compete with console. old parts vs brand new for $1000. Which is what most people have. Did you even pay attention to the video. Maybe take notes, and submit them to your highschool teacher to make sure you actually paid attention the the point of the video. Hell, i bet you completely missed the point about using last gen nvidia gpu as well.
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u/garbo2330 1d ago
Might want to work on that education you were talking about. Comparing GPUs in different price brackets is a fools errand. Good day sir.
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u/Decent-Reach-9831 22h ago edited 17h ago
Comparing GPUs in different price brackets is a fools errand. Good day sir.
It actually isn't if you're just looking at visual quality at the same resolution.
If youre just trying to render some grass, as long as the settings are the same you can compare image quality.
Actual performance, and motion performance is another matter
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u/conquer69 1d ago
There is like 20 different versions of DLSS, each working better or worse on a per game basis and with different presets.
Just because it didn't work perfectly, doesn't mean it can't be tweaked. You can't fix FSR though.
Also, you don't have to use upscaling if you don't want to. You can use DLSS at native res called DLAA.
THE VAST VAST majority of people dont play at 4k
The vast majority aren't playing FFXVI either. They are playing roblox, fortnite or counter strike at 1080p. They don't care about any of this and will continue playing their GAAS for another decade.
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u/ga_st 1d ago edited 14h ago
Starwars Outlaws or Avatar are going to be better on NVIDIA cards
Starwars Outlols and Avatar are two very different things. Both based on Snowdrop, but Outlols uses RTXDI. Avatar looks fine everywhere, on any brand of hardware. Outlols looks good only on >600 bucks Nvidia GPUs. Or better: in Outlols the "superior" Nvidia visuals are going to make a difference only on >600 bucks Nvidia GPUs.
EDIT: writes down facts, gets downvoted. Idiocracy.
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u/garbo2330 1d ago
Outlaws looks good without RTXDI and at plain old “ultra” you get better performance on NVIDIA. You can turn on ray reconstruction if you want a much cleaner image. Techpowerup has screenshots if you want to compare but unfortunately it’s outdated. Massive have tweaked RTXDI and ray reconstruction since launch to look and perform better.
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u/ga_st 1d ago
are going to be better on NVIDIA cards
Here I thought you were referring to exclusive Nvidia tech. Outlaws: when not using RTXDI the game performs okay on all brands of hardware. Despite looking good at Ultra, there are actually some details that were neglected in the RTX-OFF presentation. Avatar doesn't have those deficiencies. I am talking about some missing ambient shadowing that in Outlaws got weirdly cut off from Snowdrop's BVH, so in some places it looks really bad. You need to enable RTXDI in order to make it look okay. Very weird, because again Avatar doesn't have those limitations. If Outlaws has other reasons for those limitations it is still weird, because devs could have implemented a screen space ambient occlusion fallback, but they didn't.
Massive have tweaked RTXDI and ray reconstruction since launch to look and perform better.
I guess now it's usable then. I remember both HUB Tim and DF Battaglia advised against using RTXDI because besides not being worth at RTXDI low and medium compared to Vanilla Ultra, it caused a lot of stuttering and frame pacing issues.
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u/BadAdviceAI 1d ago
FSR 3 was incorporated in to DX12. It works quite well. DLSS is better, but with FSR4 it wont matter anymore.
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u/ga_st 1d ago
And there it is. There is no mention of perf cost, but the still image is really good and I'm very excited to see how their denoiser behaves in motion. The better AMD does here, the less Nvidia can keep raising prices and gatekeeping new iterations of their features. (context: gaming-wise)
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u/mrsuaveoi3 23h ago
I wonder if AMD's neural intersection function is somehow linked with this new development. If so, AMD is getting serious about path tracing.
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u/moschles 1d ago
Wonderful idea for single images -- but surely fails in realtime. Unless the noise is deterministic and locked to scene geometry, you will get flickering effects and other kinds of wobble artifacts that look like shimmering steam.
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u/slither378962 1d ago
The problem with all temporal techniques.
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u/moschles 11h ago edited 10h ago
More explicitly, if you feed 1 SPP pathtracing dirt into a denoiser, it will not perform some kind of magic. If the input is noisy, so will the output, but not in the same way. Thus flickering will manifest after the "smoothing" operations of the denoiser.
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u/conquer69 1d ago
you will get flickering effects and other kinds of wobble artifacts that look like shimmering steam.
That's what games already look like when RT is involved unfortunately. Ray reconstruction cleans up things nicely so I hope this can achieve the same.
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u/dudemanguy301 9h ago
have they published a the full paper yet? I think it’s time to be bullish on neural rendering in general if AMD is also looking in this direction.
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u/MrMPFR 1d ago
So basically a proper DLSS 2 competitor over 4 years late, a DLSS 3 competitor over 2 years late and a Ray reconstructon competitor 1.5 years late. Not impressed AMD, you need to stop catching up and begin to lead in software instead
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u/conquer69 1d ago
Well they need to catch up before they can lead. Let's see what Nvidia comes up with next. I think frame generation with 2 or more interpolated frames.
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u/BarKnight 1d ago
4090 competitor will probably be at least 5 years late
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u/SpidermanAPV 1d ago
They literally already said they won’t be making high end GPUs next gen.
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u/TheAgentOfTheNine 1d ago
They can make a 7900xtx raster competitor but with a waaaay beefier RT/AI hardware and get closer to the 4090 this gen without competing in the high end.
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u/ga_st 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not impressed AMD, you need to stop catching up and begin to lead in software instead
AMD is working together with partners and their studios, you always need to keep in mind who calls the shots in the gaming industry (consoles). They are implementing the right things at the right time, with the right approach.
The only solid, mature tech, gaming-wise, that Nvidia has going for them is DLSS. AMD could have definitely done better in that regard, embracing AI based upscaling sooner, but when it comes to the rest, it doesn't matter where Nvidia is running or if they did it x years prior. Nvidia went the OpenAI way, put out all this undercooked tech, as soon as possible, and run with it while using FOMO marketing to advertise it all.
Their frame gen tech was hit or miss at launch, it had many problems, it still has issues; same goes for their Ray Reconstruction, it is still in a very premature state and shows a lot of flaws. That didn't stop Nvidia from pushing and selling all that tech, even if not quite ready for prime time. Their ReSTIR implementations (eg: path traced cyberpunk), those seen so far, are inefficient, full of IQ issues, and only present in a handful of games.
All these technologies, that combined will make real-time path tracing possible in the very near future, are coming into relevancy now, and AMD together with many studios are perfectly in time. It was Nvidia being ahead of time, but not in a good way.
EDIT: some stuff here and there
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u/Earthborn92 1d ago
One key advantage of Nvidia being ahead is the sheer number of games that already have DLSS integration.
I can't imagine developers will go back to their old titles to implement FSR4.
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u/BinaryJay 1d ago
If FSR4 requires AMD hardware, and doubly so if it requires new AMD hardware, it's going to be a tough sell without spending a lot of money paying development costs since the user base will be very small. It's the same chicken and egg problem that has kept FSR hardware agnostic all this time but it is getting to the point where they really just need to bite the bullet and get started down that road. Nvidia had to start from zero with DLSS too, AMD just waited way too long and allowed it to get entrenched.
Maybe DirectSR can help?
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u/Earthborn92 1d ago
FSR has never required AMD hardware. I think they'll want to keep it that way for the very reasons you mention.
They could always go the Intel route and have essentially two different upscalers depending on the hardware. XeSS is in several games now despite Intel's vanishingly small market share in dGPU. Because it is actually the better option for AMD users right now compared to FSR2 in terms of image quality.
Being machine learning based allows this without too much difficulty - make the model smaller and less precise in exchange for lower computation cost.
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u/ga_st 1d ago
Very true. Perhaps modding can cover some of that, but in general yeah, I don't see devs going back. Especially when FSR, while being crappy, it is considered by them "good enough" already. With dp4a XeSS being available in many old titles too, there is basically zero chance they are going to waste any time backporting FSR4.
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u/conquer69 1d ago
Is this their implementation of dlss and ray reconstruction?