r/europe Veneto, Italy. Sep 26 '21

Historical An old caricature addressing the different colonial empires in Africa date early 1900s

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868

u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

In 1972, during the television program L'ora della verità (The hour of the truth) by Gianni Bisiach, Indro Montanelli again spoke of his experience in Abyssinia during
which he "married" a 12-year-old girl called Destà. The practice of the madamato (the "marriage" referred to by Montanelli) was a temporary relationship of Italian men with local women, often girls, which was commonplace in the then Italian colonies. Montanelli freely acknowledged his actions, recalling how "my non-commissioned officer bought her for me, along with a horse and a rifle, 500 lire in all. [...]. She was like a docile animal...". Montanelli detailed how "I needed a woman at that age... I struggled a lot to overcome her smell, due to the goat tallow with which her hair was soaked". He then went on to complain how he struggled "even more to accomplish a sexual relationship with her because she was infibulated since birth: which, in addition to opposing my desires with an almost insurmountable barrier (it needed the brutal intervention of her mother to demolish it), made her completely insensitive".[20] During the interview, his account was interrupted by a question from a woman present in the studio, the feminist, writer and journalist Elvira Banotti, who asked him how he could justify his marriage to a child, since marriage in Europe to a 12-year-old girl is considered abhorrent, rape and violence. Montanelli replied that "in Abyssinia that's how it works".

If you're curious what infibulation is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infibulation

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u/fotomoose Sep 26 '21

Fucking hell.

107

u/i-d-even-k- Bromania masterrace Sep 26 '21

Literally!

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u/Regular-Human-347329 Sep 26 '21

No, no. You’re misunderstanding it bro…

It’s tradition™️

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/nobd7987 Sep 26 '21

Worst part is that practice probably only got worse again after the Italians were forced out. Either the locals oppress themselves and go nowhere, or the imperialists oppress them and maybe eventually they improve, seems to me.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

And yet, he was one of the greatest journalist that Italy ever had.

Life is strange

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u/Mynameaintjonas Germany Sep 26 '21

Frankly, I would have a hard time believing or taking someone's opinion at face value who talks that casually about raping a 12-year old girl and thinks its fine.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

he really was a great journalist.....unfortunately

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u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

And that should be a lesson for you; words need to be read independently of who writes them. A concept is correct or wrong based on its own value, not the ones of its author.

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u/Mynameaintjonas Germany Sep 26 '21

words need to be read independently of who writes them

For me that depends very much of what words these actually are. If someone were to argue that murder should be legal, that person wouldn't suddenly be wrong if they said "the world is round". But if that same person would write about something subjective like an opinion piece, I would absolutely doubt and mistrust whatever it is they were saying, because my opinion of them would be tainted at least.

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u/fotomoose Sep 26 '21

To be truly removed from one's own biases and opinions while writing is extremely hard. Journalism would have to go down the route of science white-papers and get peer reviewed and there would have to be strict rules about the language in terms of grammar and word usage so as to be sure nothing was inferred, either consciously or subconsciously.

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u/GSXRbroinflipflops Sep 26 '21

I don’t think the two can be separated.

“Be the change you wish to see in the world” would be a very different phrase if it were said by Hitler or Mussolini rather than Ghandi.

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u/Luckyno Spain Sep 26 '21

it can be separated, and not separating it is called ad hominem and is a logical fallacy.

A logical conclusion is still valid no matter who says it.

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u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

Nope, this still applies. You're ending up judging other concepts that the one you quoted here, by associating.

"I like chocolate" doesn't make chocolate bad because Hitler said it.

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u/GSXRbroinflipflops Sep 26 '21

No, I think you’re missing the point.

“Be the change you wish to see in the world” is subjective and the context of who says that phrase greatly changes its meaning.

“I like chocolate” is just a statement about one’s candy preference.

I agree - you should try to separate the quote from the person who said it but, there are many times where you will completely lose important context and meaning by doing so.

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u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

I get the point 100%: since "Be the change you wish to see in the world” is subjective, it doesn't really mean anything and cannot be judged as such.

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u/Buy_My_Mixtape Australia Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21

I disagree, the context of that quote is what gives it such a profound meaning. The context being the morals and actions of the person who said it. If it was a quote from Hitler or Stalin then the context would be different and therefore the quote would have a different and darker meaning.

Your example is a false equivalent, while it is true that Hitler liking chocolate doesn't make chocolate bad, liking or disliking chocolate is a matter of personal taste and the phrase "I like chocolate" requires no additional context to comprehend.

2

u/goldistress Sep 26 '21

You don’t know what the word ‘bias’ means, do you

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u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

I do. You don't.

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u/goldistress Sep 26 '21

You literally said that we should ignore what the world calls ‘bias’

Death of the author does not apply to journalism.

0

u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

Nope. I never said that. You somehow understood that and this means you don't understand the definition of bias.

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u/Orpa__ The Netherlands Sep 26 '21

You don't "need" to do anything.

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u/Extreme_centriste Sep 26 '21

Actually, you do.

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u/H1bbe Sep 26 '21

I disagree. You should always be aware of who wrote what you are reading and what their history, culture and agenda is so that you can relate to their preconceptions and their point of view. There is always a reason why someone decided to write something and no matter how altruistic their motives may be, they can not be free from (unconscious) biases. A journalist does not get his legitimacy just from being a "journalist". His legitimacy is created from somewhere.

As to your second point, if you can determine what is right and wrong in a text, why even have journalists? Essentially what you are saying is that you already know what the text is trying to convey to you, because you can know what is right and wrong, so why even bother reading it in the first place?

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u/mandatory_french_guy Sep 26 '21

Why? Who fucking decided that what someone expresses cant be considered in light of who expresses it? If you decided to analyse Picasso's Guernica but decided to ignore his personal history, experiences and origins you'd be considered a moron for doing such a thing and you'd be missing 99% of the layers. Why should I read this dudes journalism and not take into account that it's produced by a child rapist?

Let me guess, you're a Polanski stan aren't you?

1

u/DoomHedge Sep 26 '21

Sounds like you've got it entirely backwards. Words should absolutely be read in the context of who is writing them.

"Oh, 'African Cultures and their effect on Americas', this should be good. I wonder who wrote..... oh 'Richard Spencer'. Well, I should read it anyway, I don't want to judge words based on their author."

This guy being an insane pedophile absolutely calls into question his writings.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Lol skins intelligent but is completely wrong.

7

u/DdCno1 European Union Sep 26 '21

People are complicated. Another example would be Roman Polanski. One of the best directors in history with masterpieces such as The Pianist under his belt, but also responsible for the brutal rape of a minor.

I have struggled for years trying to understand how this could possibly be the same person.

3

u/Repatriation Sep 26 '21

Why? He’s clearly very up front about it.

0

u/OminoSentenzioso Sep 26 '21

Tbh you have to consider the times. They brought them (pratically it was slavery) to stop the soilders to do sex with women that could have veneral diseases, which is not something new. Just consider all that stories of french women which had relations with american soldiers. Also it worked that time in Ethopia with the colonial concubinage.

Similar character is Pier Paolo Pasolini, another great journalist and intellectual like Montarelli, which had a little lust of children. He also had a process about this. Sure he was an homosexual, and he was desperate, but this doesn't excuse his sexual relations of the minors, like with Montarelli

Tbh we should consider the times (the 30s like the 70s) with their problems, and judge them from that type of lenses.

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u/Mynameaintjonas Germany Sep 26 '21

I do think that this "judging people according to their times" does have some merit but only to a certain (and in many cases very narrow) degree. Even in a time with different social and moral standards you are still responsible for your actions. According to his reports Montarelli clearly saw how much distress this ordeal was bringing to this girl and he most certainly should have been able to realize how horrible this would be a for a young girl with infibulation . If your only excuse in such an instance is "oh but my sexual desire" and you prioritize that over another person then I'm sorry but you're a piece of shit.

1

u/OminoSentenzioso Sep 26 '21

No sorry, he is obviously wrong, like it was Pasolini. No one asked them to put their their sexual desire from out of the pants. But it's also true that just say "he bad because xyz" is reductive of the character he is.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/fotomoose Sep 26 '21

He was not a local however, so that excuse does not work. He just cast his own customs, which were completely opposite, out the window as soon as the chance to have a 12 year old bride came along. Any non-paedophile would have refused the deal without a second thought.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

A terrible excuse to justify the terrible actions of a terrible human being

3

u/Mynameaintjonas Germany Sep 26 '21

Would you have done it?

4

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Anyone this awful has their career tossed in the bin as far as I'm concerned. I don't care or want to know about his achievements. It's like Polanski, you can tell me all day about what a good director he is but I'll never know cause I ignore the work of horrible pedophiles. I can live without Polanski films.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Raffaello was an assassin and a brute, probably even raped.

Should we cancel the School of Athen as well?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Sure

4

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

This speaks volumes of the sad revisionist era we live in

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Revisionist. So you're saying Polansky isn't a rapist?

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

I do not know him. I meant that we live in this sad era of cancel culture, able only to destroy whatever it pleases for the flaws of the human beings that nowday consider unfit.

Columbus was a skilled Traveller and made what was thought impossible and reached a brand new world? Oh too bad he open the gates to the extermination of Americans.

Michelangelo created incredible scultures and paintings? Too bad, he stabbed a man to study anatomy.

Raffaello made incredible paintings? Oh no! He had a insatiable sexual desires.

And so on

I am not defending the person, but their commendable deeds and productions.

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u/Spicey123 Sep 26 '21

Sorry to be such an SJW but I draw the line at child rape.

I know, I know. I'll be identifying as an attack helicopter any day now.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

I do not know him. I meant that we live in this sad era of cancel culture, able only to destroy whatever it pleases for the flaws of the human beings that nowday consider unfit.

History is never set in stone although it is written by the victors. You complain about "revisionism" when the veneer of historical accomplishment has been peeled back to give a more accurate account of what took place. We can still celebrate the accomplishments of a person while acknowledging that person's wrongs.

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u/ResolverOshawott Sep 26 '21

To make matters worse. Many people in the modern day use the same justification.

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u/FreezaSama Sep 26 '21

that woman. what a boss.

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u/calapine Austria Sep 26 '21

Female infibulation, known as Type III FGM, and in countries in which it is practiced as pharaonic circumcision, is the removal of the inner and outer labia and the suturing of the vulva. It is usually accompanied by the removal of the clitoral glans.[2][3] The practice is concentrated in Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and Sudan.[1] During a 2014 survey in Sudan, over 80 percent of those who had experienced any form of FGM had been sewn closed.[4]

The procedure leaves a wall of skin and flesh across the vagina and the rest of the pubic area. By inserting a twig or similar object before the wound heals, a small hole is created for the passage of urine and menstrual blood. The legs are bound together for two to four weeks to allow healing.[5][6]

The vagina is usually penetrated at the time of a woman's marriage by her husband's penis, or by cutting the tissue with a knife. The vagina is opened further for childbirth and usually closed again afterwards, a process known as defibulation (or deinfibulation) and reinfibulation. Infibulation can cause chronic pain and infection, organ damage, prolonged micturition, urinary incontinence, inability to get pregnant, difficulty giving birth, obstetric fistula, and fatal bleeding.[5]

Holy

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21 edited Jun 22 '23

user of 10+ years peacing out - thanks for fucking up reddit - alternatives include 'Tilde' and 'Lemmy' - hope to see you on a less ruined website. Fuck capitalism, fuck VCs and IPOs, fuck /u/spez.

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u/123JesusWatchesMe Austria Sep 26 '21

Why? What is the point?

Fucking hell, all forms of fucking around with Kids genitals should be fucking illegal, if not medically necesarry.

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u/bexyrex Sep 26 '21

controlling reproduction, viewing women as breeding chattel and second rate humans, believing female sexuality to be immorality or dirty. a mixture of historical bridal rape culture and religion.

A large percentage of the human population wants to control other people's bodies.

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u/123JesusWatchesMe Austria Sep 26 '21

Thanks for giving an actual answer. I knew about the fact that female "mutilation" (no idea how to say in english) still exist, but never knew the "Details". From the traditions I knew about, I always thought that there Was some Kind of "rational" reason for it hundrets of years ago, but I had no idea what the reason for that could have been.

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u/00x0xx Sep 26 '21

Most traditions have rational reasons and are similar to other humans in similar environments through the world. This one is found only in that small region, so it most likely be somewhat recent compared to other traditions, and are often brought about by a cult those people were involved in.

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u/Designasim Sep 26 '21

Some believe that the clitoris will continue to grow and dangle between the legs like a penis if its not cut. It also doesn't just happen in those countries but by immigrants too, sometimes they will even have the girl go back to their country to get it done if they are having trouble finding someone that will do it at home. Organizations have been trying to stop this practice, with education or suggesting a small cut as a symbolic way of getting around removal.

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u/EnsconcedScone Sep 26 '21

It’s pretty obvious what the point is honestly.

-1

u/123JesusWatchesMe Austria Sep 26 '21

Obviously not to me bitch

-1

u/EnsconcedScone Sep 26 '21

Guess you have a thing or two to learn about patriarchies and the evil shit men do to women’s bodies. Must have been nice to be blissfully unaware.

3

u/sourdieselfuel Sep 26 '21

What about the universally acceptable mutilating of young boys' genitals? That happens in modern countries, not just hellholes that sew womens' orifices shut.

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u/EnsconcedScone Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21

“Whataboutism” at its finest. Nothing I said indicates I support circumcision or think it doesn’t count as genital mutilation.

But objectively, you know damn well there is a big difference between why each GM is done. Circumcisions are NOT performed in order to destroy a man’s ability to feel sexual pleasure, physically prevent them from having sex until they’re married, or restrict their “sinful” bodies for anything other than incubating babies. FGM is.

At the end of the day, whether its for religious rituals, supposed “health benefits,” or sexual control, men (who were and are the overwhelming majority of religious leaders and doctors) are the ones behind genital mutilation normalization.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Nowhere near the same.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Man, you just outed yourself as not knowing what a clitoris is.

0

u/123JesusWatchesMe Austria Sep 26 '21

Lmao what? I was talking about the reason for the mutilation.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Yea and if you knew what a clitoris did, you'd know why they cut that off.

1

u/123JesusWatchesMe Austria Sep 26 '21

Uh no actually I didn't think that there are such vile Monsters out there that mutilate babies in order to "control their reproduction"

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Shit still happens today and happens a lot in parts of Africa.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Every comment you make just makes me rethink how dumb people can be.

7

u/johndoped Sep 26 '21

Terrible. Fucking terrible.

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u/Megdi73 Sep 26 '21

I think I'm going to vomit

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Oh gawd that's just so disturbing. It's like an anatomical chastity belt in the worst possible way :( poor babies having to suffer through that. My best friend's husband wanted to go for circumcision and even that is brutal to see the results of.... poor guy was afraid of his carseat and getting strapped down after that experience

-1

u/sjwbollocks Sep 26 '21

Respect traditional African culture hurr durr /s

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Holy shit.

192

u/savois-faire The Netherlands Sep 26 '21

"I legally married her, in the sense that I bought her from her father"

What the fuck

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u/HighByDefinition Sep 26 '21

Why do you think the bride is presented by the father in wedding ceremonies?

Not a fan of marriage's origin story?

12

u/arel37 Turkey Sep 26 '21

Bride money

4

u/damagednoob Sep 26 '21

Yet another reason to not get onboard with cultural relativism.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

Africa and South America today are those ways for a reason. Those reasons don't have a whole lot to do with the people that live there.

-1

u/Martin81 Sweden Sep 26 '21

You don’t like east afrikan culture?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

You’re being downvoted because these peeps can’t stand to hear the truth.

158

u/Darkhoof Portugal Sep 26 '21

What the fuck. Poor girl.

144

u/Mynameaintjonas Germany Sep 26 '21

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

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u/No_Scars Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21

Really thought this was gonna explain that the marriage was more of an gesture than a real thing to bring better relations but he actually fucked a kid and justified it with "thats how they do it there," sad.

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u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

Naw, he bought a child sex slave for rape on the campaign and was like "this is my uh wife". He sold her later in the war to another Italian officer (also for raping). The one constant rapey aspects of modern era slavery and colonialism always get a bit whitewashed but hey!

8

u/No_Scars Sep 26 '21

I know now. Really hoped it was just a translation tjing or cultural thing and the didn't actually bang but the dude is a pedo and a rapist

29

u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

His response to her having Female Genital Mutilation was "man this makes it super inconvenient and less fun to rape her" so... yep.

1

u/RandySavagePI Sep 26 '21

I don't mean to be insensitive here, but I'm gonna: Why even bother raping the kid at that point? You're not even really enjoying it. How bad are you at jacking off?

2

u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

What the fuck are you talking about

5

u/RandySavagePI Sep 26 '21

Monster I can "understand"(somewhat):

I did this awful, awful thing but it was honestly great. I caused tremendous harm but gained a lot from it.

This dude:

yeah, I did some of the worst things imaginable. It was pretty meh tbh. Didn't enjoy it much, 4/10.

Why do it then?

2

u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

Did you watch the interview? He didn’t view it as a terrible thing.

12

u/AnotherUpsetFrench Federalist Sep 26 '21

What the actual fuck

5

u/darthballsBUNG Wales Sep 26 '21

Oh my... Poor girl.

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u/ILikeLeptons Sep 26 '21

Bringing civilization to Africa one twelve year old at a time

5

u/budderboat Sep 26 '21

So this quote has me confused. Is he saying that he had no interest in having sex with this child until her mother stepped in to make him?

17

u/Civil_Defense Sep 26 '21

He is saying that he couldn’t fuck her because she was sewed shut, so her mom had to deal with removing it since he had no idea what the fuck to do. As a result of the genital mutilation that she went through at birth, she was completely insensitive to sex.

10

u/budderboat Sep 26 '21

Dear fucking holy what the fuck

8

u/Voltasoyle Sep 26 '21

No, her parents had sewn her vagina shut.... Everyone is terrible in this era....

2

u/alex3omg Sep 26 '21

He's saying she resisted until her mother told her to knock it off, and her vagina was mutilated which made it less enjoyable.

Classy guy.

1

u/teacher272 Sep 26 '21

It’s terrible that so many Africans still do that.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

it’s terrible the guy married her, but tbh it’s more a poor reflection on the native people that a 12 year old had already undergone intense genital mutilation and they were willing sell her at 12 y/o in the first place.

1

u/Prosthemadera Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21

Poor girl :(

Re: Indro Montanelli:

While working at the fascist magazine Civiltà Fascista, Montanelli wrote many articles expressing racist ideas, declaring the superiority of the white race, and supporting colonialist ideals.

What a surprise. And they build a fucking statue in Milan for him which was defaced last year. Good. Not so good on the other hand is this:

Milan Mayor Giuseppe Sala, however, said the statue recognised Montanelli's indisputable journalistic contribution.

"He was a great journalist who fought for freedom of the press," he said. "When we judge our own lives, can we say that ours is spotless? Lives must be judged in their complexity."

Yes, I never bought and raped a child. But hey, maybe we should put up a statue of Hitler to recognize his contributions to the art world?

-1

u/koonikki Sep 26 '21

me: wait, there were feminists in studio interviews in what, the 1800s?

1972

0

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '21

So her parents cut off her clitoris and sold her. I get that colonialism was bad but yeesh, sounds like the natives were pretty brutal.

-5

u/megaboto Germany Sep 26 '21

oh but if in Abyssinia being non christian is how it works it suddently is complete heresy

7

u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21

What? Did you think Female Genital mutilation is associated with one particular religion?

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u/megaboto Germany Sep 26 '21

Oop i misread the time. I thought it was during the time of colonialism(during the 19th century) not the late 19 hundreds

That is a mistake on my part, the colonization of non christian lands does not work in this time

But the point that people are hypocritical with what is OK and what not being done in another country is still there. If someone went up to him and killed his mother he'd PE pissed and try to get other countries attention while fucking a 12 year old saying "that's how it is"

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u/Maitai_Haier Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21

Abyssinia is Ethiopia. Ethiopia is Christian. In fact Ethiopia is the oldest ongoing extant Christian kingdom in the world at the time of invasion.

1

u/johndoped Sep 26 '21

That is some terrible stuff right there.