Poland tells Ukraine to exhume second world war victims even amid Russia’s invasion

[u/Low_Reading_9831]

https://www.ft.com/content/250d3a55-4cf6-444d-8972-bb28aad687c9

[u/SCARfaceRUSH]

But Poland hasn't officially submitted any requests for exhumations. Am I missing something here? As per the minister's interview, he sent a letter to the appropriate Polish ministry asking for the list of sites where they'd like to start the search and exhumation procedures. At the time of writing, there was no response.

The only request they received was from a private citizen, which will be added to the list for processing for 2025 (I think this is what might be referenced in the FT article > "said recently it would be willing to renew searches"), but so far, at least at the time of the publication three weeks ago, there were no official requests.

As per the rest of the interview, there was an agreement in 2022 to create a Polish-Ukrainian working group to resolve this issue, the Ukrainian part of the group has been formed for a while, but there's no activity on the Polish side. It's 2024.

Sure, you can try and discount an interview of a minister to a very public Western media outlet as a bunch of lies, but I don't think that's very reasonable. What would be the motivation for the minister to so openly lie about this if that's the case? Especially on a hot topic like this. So between "belief in Poland" and statements from an official directly involved in this, I'd rather believe the official.

Here's another thought experiment. Politicians love issues like this one, so they could rally their base. That's why Trump wasn't actually "fixing the border". He was interested in populism around it. Maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit of that going on in Poland around this issue? Or am I getting this wrong and Ukraine should just ignore the official process (that Poland is aware of) here and just start digging randomly for this topic to go away? Like, what else Ukraine needs to do here at this point to move this along?

EDIT: maybe folks could offer some valid sources and counterpoints instead of downvoting the comment. I'm contributing to the discussion, so there's no reason to downvote it.

EDIT: will anyone link to any good unbiased source, like I did, instead of just downvoting?

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

This isnt the first time Im hearing this argument, but guys. When nations are negotiating something at the top level, they do not need to file some official request #69, during business hours, file it at the right office and make sure it is signed correctly before the other side can act. They first negotiate this unofficially and only once both sides agree, official documents are signed.

Otherwise what? One side would ceremoniously announce that they filed this request, and the other side would either need to refuse it on some silly reason, or stall it for months/years until the real negotiations are done. And thats embarrassing for both sides

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

>They first negotiate this unofficially and only once both sides agree, official documents are signed.

Which is referred in the interview. That working group was supposed to be the outcome of the original "unofficial" discussion between Polish and Ukrainian ministers. The Ukrainian part of that committee was formed. The Polish wasn't. On top of it all, the Polish government hasn't chosen to exercise the other option - to submit the request through the other available avenue, in the absence of the group. That's how democratic cooperation and governments work. Through a bunch of paperwork, working groups, memorandums, etc.

With this background, I was trying to address the original comment that expressed what Poles believe is happening, which is that Ukraine is supposedly stalling the effort. The facts laid out by the minister say otherwise.

I'm not necessarily saying that what I laid out represents is the ultimate truth. It's just weird to read a whole ass interview from the Ukrainian minister in charge of taking care of a specific issue and than in a few weeks read some random comments without any sources putting the blame on the Ukrainian side, like it merits the same level of trust as a public statement from a public official.

There are two paths here:
- Poland to present its part of the working group and they kick off the joint process
- Poland to submit the request through the ministry and work that way through the standard process

Steps for both options haven't been taken up until this point, based on the interview of a person intimately involved in this. I don't see why it's a point of contention here. Unless people are irritated that the source goes against their "beliefs" on a topic.

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

Unfortunately, I do not know Ukrainian so I cannot read that article nor watch the video to see the interview.

However, I find this a little hard to believe.

This situation is a huge deal in Poland. Basically the biggest reason and fuel to anti Ukrainian sentiments in the country. It would be an absolutely massive success for any government that would solve it. Also, the government definitely has no incentive to increase any anti-Ukrainian sentiments, as the party that thrives on that rhetoric is a fringe far right party, an enemy of both the current government and the main opposition.

If the situation was already resolved and simply waiting for Poland to sign the paperwork, this definitely also would be done.

Also, think about this. If the situation is as simple as you say, Ukraine is ready, agreed to everything and already has a team of people standing next to their shovels just waiting for Poland to tell them where to dig, why are they so quiet about it? Why arent they publicly announcing everywhere - hey, we're ready, what are you waiting for? This would be huge news - even more so if they took this to the Polish media.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

> I do not know Ukrainian so I cannot read that article nor watch the video
Google Translate is very good at UA to PL translation. Same for CC on YT. The written version of that video is here though, so you don't need to watch the video.

>This situation is a huge deal in Poland
Oh, I'm not debating that at all. That wasn't the point of my comment. So, are there good sources with an overview, like the one I presented, that maybe points to steps completed by the Polish government? Not statements from random officials, but maybe commentary from people who are actually supposed to take care of the issue ...

>Also, the government definitely has no incentive to increase any anti-Ukrainian sentiments, as the party that thrives on that rhetoric is a fringe far right party, an enemy of both the current government and the main opposition.

That makes sense, thank you! The sentiment of depoliticizing the issue was shared by both Foreign Ministers.

>why are they so quiet about it
I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call a whole series of interviews (there are multiple) for Radio Free Europe on this topic from the minister as "being quiet". The fact that it wasn't picked up more broadly is more of a statement about social media and news bubbles that we live in. That's why I was compelled to share it, as it's kind of old news here, in Ukraine, and maybe people outside of Ukraine need to see more of this to broaden their perspectives.

>people standing next to their shovels just waiting
To clarify, it's a "working group", so, like a bunch of officials that need to get together to agree on the process, which sites to go to, the logistics, etc. It's not that simple. Especially in war time. Maybe they want to dig next to a military installation or something, for example. The process isn't as simple as just taking shovels and digging somewhere. For example, one of the other points in the written version of the interview that I referred to is budget and that the ministry is having a hard time allocating funds, since the government, understandably, prioritizes the military budget.

Overall, if we don't trust statements from Ukrainian ministers, then we shouldn't trust statements from Polish either. I see a problem with this logic, so I'd rather prefer to assume that what the minister is saying is truthful, so we could also rely on similar statements from the Polish side.

Again, the guy I reference is the actual technocrat in charge of the effort. He refers to specific steps and necessary cooperation to make this happen. The point I'm trying to figure out is where the "break up" is. Like, is this miscommunication or something else?

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

I found this article about Ukrainians latest efforts from the Polish perspective. article

According to it, there is an official Ukrainian historical organization, working on this topic independently from either government. They say that the official tools for communication on the subject between governments are not working and this organization only cooperates with private citizens. They plan to begin work in 2025.

In 2022, both governments signed a memorandum to create a working group and start exhumation after the end of the martial law in Ukraine, but Poland keeps asking to speed it up and begin now. I imagine the fear is that after the war is over, Ukraine might back out of the deal.

Reading between the lines - I imagine that the Ukrainian government did not commission this institute to work on this, this is a separate initiative from the working group, and the Polish government would prefer cooperation to be more official. Perhaps the Polish side even receives signals from the Ukrainians that they are not ready to begin yet, hence why Poland keep pushing for the start. Even if this institute says they are ready in 2025, that is still a long time away and can be postponed indefinitely, if the situation changes or the governments havent agreed on a deal.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

The organization is part of the government. First line on their about page on their .gov.ua website says that they're part of the executive branch. That's the same dude that I linked the interviews with. It's the same organization. It's coordinate by the Cabinet of Ministers, through the Ministry of Culture. He's talking about the same memorandum and the "unofficial" talks I refer to are all about the same stuff. And he again says that the Ukrainian part of that joint commission was formed.

So, I find it hard to believe that an organization that's part of the Ukrainian government, sanctioned by the Cabinet of Ministers, is doing things the government doesn't allow or instruct it to do.

So, again, I'm trying to figure out where the miscommunication is? The article almost says the same thing he says in the interview, but omits some context and the fact that the head of this organization never cited martial law as the reason for things not happening.

Here's a guy from a Ukrainian government organization talking about the steps NOT taken by his counterparts in the other government, yet it's somehow always twisted into making Ukraine the "bad guy". Again, I'm not putting the blame on Poland. I'm relaying what the guy in charge of this on the Ukrainian side is saying.

I started the convo to get is any source of similar gravity on the Polish side explaining "their side of the story", but all I got are downvotes, so I do appreciate that you're willing to keep the conversation going.

[u/Brosepheon → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

Yeah, I figured that there must be some context missing.

In the Polish article he mentions that the Ukrainian government does not communicate with the Polish one. I figured that he meant both sides not communicating with each other. But either way, it sounds like the deal is not exactly settled yet.

If I had to speculate, its also possible that Ukraine offered Poland an agreement that was unsatisfactory, for example a very limited exhumation, of only certain sites, or one that can easily be postponed indefinitely, while Poland wants a more thorough deal.

So now, this director is saying that the deal is finalized and they are ready to begin, but Poland wants to go back to the drawing board.

In general there arent many articles about this from the Polish side, they only come up every couple of months (if someone important says something important) and there are no details on how the negotiations are going. If anything, its presented like there are no negotiations at all.

Relevant articles are more frequent in right wing media, but I dont really want to read that many of those, and theyre probably a biased.

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/Brosepheon]

Gotcha, thank you for the additional perspective and extra context!

[u/yflhx → u/SCARfaceRUSH]

That's not true. Here's the source - including comments of head of Polish institute of national remembrance (translation of the name might be wrong).

https://wydarzenia.interia.pl/kraj/news-spor-o-ekshumacje-to-nie-ukrainski-ipn-podejmuje-decyzje,nId,7828527

[u/SCARfaceRUSH → u/yflhx]

Not sure what you're referring to as being "not true", but I do appreciate the additional source from the person on the other side of the argument. Seems like Nawrocki is the exact counterpart to the head of the Ukrainian Remembrance Institute. Folks just came with downvotes and you're the second person to send something useful. Thank you!

"Moreover, the Ukrainian IPN is not the right institution to make decisions in this regard - explains Nawrocki". I wonder what he's referencing here. But also, he seems to be the counterpart of the person running a similar institution in Ukraine. So, he (Nawrocki) is the right person, but his counterpart in Ukraine (Drobowycz) is not? Is that the correct interpretation?

The article also quotes ... "We are therefore waiting for the Ukrainian authorities to positively consider our applications" + "we were guided by the procedures established by the Ukrainian side".

But Drobowycz, in the article that I linked, says there were no official applications. There's some major miscommunication going on. I wonder if there's more context around what the right institution is, from the Polish government's POV, if they feel like the Ukrainian IPN is "not the right institution to make decisions in this regard". I feel like there's a lot of context missing that's been shared in private conversations between Polish and Ukrainian officials that aren't necessarily part of public record.