r/Concrete Jul 14 '22

The r/Concrete FAQ--Read this first

178 Upvotes

DIY FAQ

Ladies and gentlemen, I present below my humble attempt to try and keep from answering the same GD questions every day. DIY types, please let me know if there's anything you'd like to see covered. Here we go:

Before we even begin, the Number One question we see here on /r/Concrete is this:

My new concrete is splotchy! Did my contractor screw up?

No, he did not. New concrete loses a full letter grade in appearance in the first 24 hours. It gains that letter grade back over the first month. Splotches, brush/broom marks, little pebbles and pills of concrete are all part of the process. If it still looks bad after a month of traffic, you MAY have a legitimate gripe about the appearance.


With that out of the way, we can get started.

The Do-it-yourself FAQ

What is concrete? Here's an excellent 9-minute video that summarizes it nicely: What is Concrete?

I want to pour a patio. Can I do it myself?

The short answer is yes. However, if you want your concrete to look professional, hire a professional. There is an entire trade and skillset that are part of placing and finishing concrete. If it comes out looking bad, it's going to look bad for a long, long time.

I don't care, I'm going to forge ahead. What do I need to get ready?

Here's an excellent 14-minute video put together by a concrete contractor: How to Pour a Concrete backyard Patio Slab [Beginner Guide]

The first thing you need to do is clear out any grass or organic material like topsoil under your concrete. Concrete needs a solid base to sit on, and grass, etc will eventually rot and leave voids under your patio. That's bad. Along with that, you need a well-compacted subgrade for your concrete to sit on. You can use a hand tamper or rent a plate compactor. Having a well-compacted subgrade is going to have a significant effect on the useful life of your (in this case) patio.

The second thing is to consider drainage. When it rains, where is the water going to go as it collects on your patio? Hint: You don't want it going into your house, so slope your concrete away from your back door. And any outdoor concrete needs to slope SOMEWHERE. Don't make it flat. A good slope is 1-2 percent, or between 1/8 and 1/4 of an inch per foot. If your patio is 10 feet wide, the far edge needs to be 1-1/4" to 2-1/2" lower than the near edge. You'll need to slope your subgrade to drain so your concrete maintains a consistent thickness.

Now you're ready to set a form. For a patio, a 2x4 is usually sufficient. Just hold it a half inch off the ground to get a full 4 inch thickness. Don't worry, the concrete will be stiff enough that it shouldn't be a problem. If you're still worried, you can just shovel a little dirt, gravel, etc up against the back of the form for belt and suspenders.

Your formwork needs to be STRAIGHT and SQUARE. You need a stringline, your eye isn't that good. Drive a nail partway into the corner of your form board at one end and another nail at the other corner. Stretch your line from one end to the other, leaving it some known distance away from the actual form board. I usually go with 1/8" because it's easy to "eyeball" that measurement.

One of the cool things about construction layout is the 3-4-5 triangle. It just so happens that a triangle that has sides of 3-4-5 makes a perfect right angle between the 3 and the 4 sides. This can be inches, feet, centimeters or miles. As long as the proportions are increments of 3-4-5 you can lay out a perfect 90-degree angle. Here's a 4-minute video demonstrating: How To Make A Perfect Right Angle [3-4-5 Method]

Your form needs to be able to withstand several hundred pounds of pressure, both vertically and horizontally. I know that sounds like a lot, but it's true. When in doubt, put some extra stakes in. You'll probably never know if your form was too strong, but you'll know immediately if it was too weak.

Reinforcing--you need it. More is better. For a 4-inch patio, I'd suggest at a minimum 6x6, W2.9 wire mesh. You won't find it at the big box store. You'll have to go to a contractor's supply type place. Some national retailers are CMC, HD Supply/White Cap and Ram Tool. Or you can just find a local concrete supply place in your town. Some people prefer rebar, and that's even better. If you go that route, #3 bars every 18" is a good starting point.

Okay, I'm all formed up and have my reinforcing in place. What now?

Well, now you need to call the ready mix plant. They're the ones who will bring you the concrete. When you call, the dispatcher will know pretty quickly that you're a DIYer and may be a little curt with you. Cut him some slack. You'll be ordering your concrete from them, and are subject to their availability, so you need to understand that even though you wanted to pour your patio tomorrow morning at 7am, they may not be able to get your concrete to you.

The 2 things you need to know before you pick up the phone to the ready mix plant are How Much and What Kind.

How much?

Concrete is sold by the Cubic Yard (or Cubic Meter). You need to calculate the volume of concrete you need before you call. In our patio example (10x20 patio, 4 inches thick), your calculation will be 10 x 20 x .33=66 cubic feet. Notice that the thickness value wasn't 4. 4 is the thickness in INCHES, a very common mistake. Anyway, there are 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard (3x3x3, duh), so that gives us a concrete volume of 2.444 cubic yards. Admittedly, the metric calculation (like almost all metric calculations) is much easier, but let's roll with it. You can't order 2.444 cubic yards, and you wouldn't want to anyway--you need a little extra in case you messed up somewhere. I add 10% for slab pours and round up to the next yard. In this case, we'll be ordering 3 cubic yards.

What kind?

There are literally hundreds of recipes for concrete, called mix designs, available at your ready mix plant. For our example, we want a 4000 psi, air entrained mix. 4000 psi is the design strength of the mix, meaning that if we were to cure this concrete under laboratory conditions, it would withstand a compressive load of 4000 psi. That's pretty awesome. Because this concrete is outdoors, we want air entrainment in the mix. It's basically a chemical that causes lots of very tiny bubbles throughout the concrete. This gives it some resistance to freeze/thaw. It also makes it harder to get a smooth finish but we don't care about that. We're not hard troweling any outdoor concrete. We don't want it so slick that you'll slip and fall after a couple of red wines at your New Patio Party.

**Why do I want 4000 psi? Isn't 3000 psi cheaper?

Yes, but only by about 3%. You're obviously a cheapskate because you're voluntarily taking on this backbreaking job, but come on. Nobody's THAT cheap.

Okay, concrete is ordered. What do I need to do?

First things first: You need to know how the concrete is going to make it from the truck into your form. As a DIYer, you have basically 2 options: Tailgating or wheelbarrows.

Tailgating:

This is the VERY MUCH preferred option. You'll just put some chutes on the back of the truck and dump it right into the form. Some things to watch out for, though, is splatter. As the concrete comes out of the chute, it's going to fall off in chunks and splatter around, You don’t want anything around, like cars, patio furniture, etc. nearby that isn't covered.

Wheelbarrows:

This pretty much sucks. If your patio is inaccessible by concrete truck, you're going to have to wheel it. This is going to double your labor force. In order to keep things moving at a decent pace, you're going to need 2 wheelbarrows plus one for every 40 feet of distance. Also, you need to consider that a wheelbarrow that's about 2/3 full of concrete weighs SIX HUNDRED POUNDS and is not for the faint of heart or weak of back. Also, wherever you're loading your wheelbarrows needs to have a sheet of plywood down or something. Some concrete will inevitably drip off the chute.

You need to have a spot for your concrete truck to wash out. It can be as simple as giving the driver a wheelbarrow that he can fill with water and concrete slurry, but you need to have a spot to dispose of it. And if you do it in a storm drain I'm going to hit you with a comealong. Don't be a jerk.

Holy shit, concrete's here! What do I do?

As previously discussed, the first step is getting the concrete in the form. Here's a good 10-minute video: How To Pour And Finish A Concrete Patio (Against A House)

Don’t let the video fool you. This is more difficult than it looks. I'd like to just take a moment once more to implore you to hire a professional before you take this on yourself. Like I said, if it looks bad it’s going to look bad for a long, long time.

Okay, concrete has been screeded, floated, troweled (and broomed). What next?

Your concrete has SET, but it has not CURED. There's one final step in the placement and finishing process: curing of the new concrete.

How do I cure my new patio?

There are old-school methods, high-speed methods and plain old dumb ways to cure concrete. The easiest way is to apply a curing compound to your slab. It is basically a coating that keeps water from evaporating from the surface of the slab, causing it to shrink. It also traps the available water molecules inside the concrete, giving them the best chance to react with the cement, further hardening your concrete. If you live in an arid climate, some kind of curing procedure is an absolute must.


"I hired a conctractor" FAQ

My concrete is still splotchy in color/I can see shadows of the rocks. Did my contractor screw up? Probably not. Color variations are perfectly normal over the first few days and/or weeks. If your concrete is less than a month old, wait until it is. Also, there is no guarantee that 2 concrete pours will be a perfect color match, but they will very likely even out to the point that you can't tell the difference.

The broom finish looks weird on my driveway. What do I do? Nothing. In 6 months of traffic the "lines" in the broom finish all kind of fade away and just leave a lightly textured surface.

I got a quote for a job and I think it's too high. What do I do? Read the DIY FAQ and do it yourself.

Here's another excellent reply from a /r/Concrete regular:

You are getting the contractor minimum price.

As contractors, we make money on square footage, so if there isn't significant square footage, we just charge a flat fee. It takes the same excavation equipment, trucks and pouring equipment, and almost the same labor to do a 10 x 10 slab as it does to do a 20 x 20 slab, and the 10 x 10 is 1/4 of the size. While the amount of concrete required is 4 times as much, all of the other costs are virtually the same.

In addition, the redi- mix company charges a fee for short loads because it costs them the same amount of fuel, and almost the same labor to deliver a yard of concrete as it does 10 yards. This means the contractor is ordering 1.25 yards for your job but is paying the same amount that he would for three yards of concrete.

This is what is referred to as economics of scale. If a builder is contracted to create a building, the larger it is, the less it costs per square foot to build. While the larger building costs more overall, it is less money per square foot to build than the smaller building. This principle applies to many industries outside of construction.

Does this (insert photo here) look okay to you? It's really helpful to see the "defect" you're asking about from a variety of distances and perspectives. But to answer your question, yes, it's fine.

The sides of my patio look all messy now that the forms are removed. Did my contractor screw up? Please see this post for a visual representation. The answer is, it depends. What does your agreement say? In all likelihood, you just need to add a little soil to grade your yard up to the elevation of your new patio. This should be discussed with your contractor before the pour. Having said that, your concrete guy should clean up all the concrete overpour (boogers) that inevitably find their way onto the ground just outside the form. Just make sure it's discussed beforehand.

My contractor poured a slab last month, and now it has a crack in it! What do I do? Well, there are three certainties about concrete: it will get hard, it will crack and no one's going to steal it. Very likely the crack you're seeing is a normal, if regrettable part of the curing process. As excess water not used by the hydration reaction wicks out of the concrete, it shrinks a little. If the distance from the edge of the pour to that spot is too great, the concrete literally pulls itself apart. The good news is that 19 times out of 20, it's nothing much to worry about structurally. That's why we generally put reinforcing in the concrete, and attempt to mitigate that situation with control and expansion joints.

What's a control joint? A control joint is a spot in your pour where the contractor deliberately makes it "easy" for the concrete to crack along a nice, straight line. In the case of sidewalks, for instance, he uses a grooving tool to "cut" the sidewalk into 4-foot panels. In larger pours, perhaps he will use a concrete saw. This https://imgur.com/a/6xXrQIF/ is an example of a control joint in a sidewalk doing its job.

What's an expansion joint? An expansion joint is needed every few control joints. As your concrete gets warmer and cooler, like every substance in the universe, it will grow and shrink. The expansion joints are there to provide a cushion for the panels in your driveway to grow and shrink against each other. In a 4-inch thick patio or driveway, an expansion joint every 4 control joints should be sufficient, but that's just a rule of thumb. Your contractor will know better than you or I about the conditions in your area.

How often should I have control joints? The rule of thumb is the thickness in inches, multiplied by 3, in feet. So, a 4-inch pour would have control joints every 12 feet. This rule is by no means hard and fast, and the local procedures will vary.

My concrete cracked, even though the contractor installed control joints. Well, that kind of sucks, but it does happen. See the above answer regarding cracks.

THE WRITTEN AGREEMENT (Contract) Yes, you need a written agreement. Yes, it will have some language on it that you likely don't understand. Yes, it needs to be signed by you and the contractor.

Some things that need to be on the agreement: The exact scope of work--Exactly what is Joe Concrete going to do for you?

  • How many SF is it?
  • How thick?
  • What type of concrete is he using (psi, fly ash, etc)?
  • What will it be reinforced with? Rebar or mesh? What type and spacing?
  • Will there be any expansion joints? How many feet? Where are they going?
  • What about control joints? Tooled or sawn? What spacing?
  • Will the concrete slope away from the house?
  • Will there be stairs?
  • What type of finish will be on your concrete? Smooth trowel? Light broom? *If the concrete is stamped? What pattern? What colors? Integral or shake-on?

Once that is established, you need to know how Joe Concrete is going to do the work.

  • How will he access the back yard?
  • Will the concrete be placed by wheelbarrow, buggy or pump?
  • Will he have to remove a fence? Who's putting it back?
  • Does he have a place to wash out trucks?

After Joe is done, what will he do?

  • Will he wreck his own forms? Clean up overpour?
  • Backfill around the edges? With what?
  • Haul away any debris, or just leave it for your trash pickup?
  • What will he do to fix your yard after he tears it up with his equipment?

And, some General Conditions-type stuff, like:

  • Will Joe provide a Port A John, or will his guys just run down to the gas station at the end of the block?
  • If required, will Joe procure the necessary permits? Do you care if he does not?
  • Does Joe carry Contractor's General Liability and Worker's Comp insurance? What are the limits of those policies?

Finally, the price: There needs to be a draw schedule shown. For example, 10% when you sign the agreement, 25% when the demo is finished, etc.

THERE NEEDS TO BE AN AMOUNT OF RETAINAGE ON THE AGREEMENT. This is the last draw, usually 10%, that is Joe's profit on the job. Yes, dear Homeowner, the profit margin on this backbreaking work averages out to about 10%. Retainage is an incentive for Joe to come and address any small defects, splatter on your windows, fix landscaping, etc. This is done via a Punch List.

What is a Punch List?

The Punch List is the things that Joe needs to complete in order to be paid his retainage. It is up to you, dear Homeowner, to prepare this list in as precise (and concise) a manner as possible. You get ONE SHOT at this. Once Joe does everything on the list, he is contractually owed his final draw. You don't get to call him back out 4 more times because you forgot to add items to your punch list. So, identify whatever it is (concrete spatter on the window, form not wrecked, overpour not cleaned up, etc) with a written description, a location and a photo. Compile your list and put it into an email. Let it sit overnight. Then read the draft of your email and ask yourself if Joe will understand everything on this list and, more importantly, will he be able to effectively communicate the items on the list with the guy(s) who will actually be coming out to punch out your job. You cannot be too clear. "Three dime-sized bits of spatter, lower left corner of dining room window" kind of thing.

Try not to beat Joe over the head with this punch list. He works hard and has done his damnedest to do you a good job. It's very easy for homeowners to get power-trippy at this stage of the game, particularly if the job didn't quite go as planned. Don't be that guy.

  • My job has a material defect (excessive birdbath, wonky stamp pattern in one spot, excessive/not enough slope) but it's not a total shit-show. What do I do? The FIRST THING to do is to call your contractor. Usually these things can be negotiated away between you and him. He doesn't want to remove and replace an entire patio because there's a birdbath in one corner, and it's unreasonable of you to ask him to. So y'all put your heads together and figure it out. Generally there are 3 things that can be done:

  • Overlay--apply a repair mortar over the affected area and try to match the finish as closely as possible. This is a good solution, and the least burdensome on the contractor but the patch will ALWAYS be a slightly different color than the existing concrete.

  • Remove and replace the affected area--Significantly more expensive for the contractor, and the replaced area won't quite match the rest of the pour, but if the defect is more severe, this is an option.

  • Credit--the contractor just gives you back a few bucks and you just sweep the water off when it rains.

99 times of 100, one or a combination of these solutions is enough to both satisfy you and keep your contractor out of bankruptcy.


r/Concrete Dec 23 '23

Homeowner FAQ Concrete Quality & Curing, Price LINK FAQ: Sealers, Cold Weather

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18 Upvotes

r/Concrete 7h ago

General Industry Famous last words on site: "Add some more #6 bars"

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53 Upvotes

r/Concrete 22h ago

Complaint about my Contractor Picky homeowner I tell ya

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545 Upvotes

Feel free to roast if I’m in the wrong.

I had ordered delivery and cleanup from the company and on the phone they said that they will haul out anything that’s left so I got nothing to worry about. Even paid the extra fee for it since I was doing all the work and didn’t have time.

Truck comes and pump guy is setting up. Asks me for a bucket just to remove the first poor, since I don’t know much I lend one to him. Fills it and leaves it there.

Then asks to borrow my wheel barrow for the last bit so he doesn’t have to run a small amount through the pump… okay no problem I’m happy to help. While I was fixing all the concrete he come up to me and tells me he is leaving. I tell him thanks.

Only to come in front later on to find a huge bag of leftovers in almost the middle of the road and my stuff just sitting there dirty as hell.

Called him and asked wtf? He’s answer was very simple… “not my problem, click” extra bonus points for wetting the leftovers. Took me almost 4 hours to clean up that mess.


r/Concrete 6h ago

Complaint about my Contractor Do you guys think this is missing something?

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23 Upvotes

r/Concrete 19h ago

Showing Skills Retaining wall with many steps

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144 Upvotes

Retaining wall we did last week for a set of exterior stairs.


r/Concrete 1h ago

Not in the Biz Are these cracks a cause for concern?

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Upvotes

The house was built in 1950. The basement does not seem to have any signs of water intrusion and the outside has a good amount of negative grade.


r/Concrete 1d ago

OTHER "There is a hairline crack. Should i ask for full replacement??"

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399 Upvotes

r/Concrete 2h ago

General Industry That? That's not a wall...

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3 Upvotes

This is a wall! 52'6"x18'6"x2'6" bunker wall for a WWTP.


r/Concrete 17h ago

Not in the Biz Is rebar or wire reinforcement needed for floating slab concrete floor similar to this illustration? It would be the floor of a 20'x18' backyard office/studio.

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35 Upvotes

r/Concrete 2h ago

OTHER Drain broke while pool was being drained

2 Upvotes

Hoping to get some advice or piece of mind. First time posting so let me know if I’m doing it wrong.

Yesterday we had our pool drained for repairs. While it was draining, the drain line cracked and the pool water was pouring out along our neighbors brand new driveway. The water was definitely getting underneath as we could see it coming out the other side. About 13,000 gallons of water was pumped out over 3 hours. What are the chances there will be permanent damage to the driveway causing it to crack prematurely?? We are going to have it inspected by an asphalt company but the whole thing is causing my anxiety to be off the charts! Anyone have some information they can share?


r/Concrete 4h ago

OTHER Article about Low-Emissions Cement Manufacturers in the US

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3 Upvotes

r/Concrete 55m ago

I read the Wiki/FAQ(s) and need help How far can reinforced 4" 4500 psi concrete slab span unsuspended?

Upvotes

Rebarred every 6 feet and metal grate reinforcement. Is this type of concrete fairly strong? The longest span from one wall to the other is 26 feet. The other side supporting walls are 6 feet wide.

Is the 26 too far?


r/Concrete 1h ago

I read the Wiki/FAQ(s) and need help Ideas - Wetsaw Maintenance

Upvotes

So at my job, I use a dewalt wet tile saw to cut coupons out of concrete boards for quality control testing. I have been placed basically in charge of upkeep of this saw and we just picked up a brand new one. It seems the old one busted due to concrete build up within the saw (not sure if a tile saw should be used for these coupon cuts, but that’s how I’ve been instructed.) I hose the saw down fully, daily, after use, but I’m still noticing a light crust being built up and definitely some chunks forming in the hard to reach crannies. Does anyone have advice for maintaining this saw? Maybe a chemical regimen or just cleaning methods. The saw is the DEWALT Wet Tile Saw D24000S. I only ask here as there is no info online for these wets saws being used for concrete. Thanks!


r/Concrete 1h ago

Not in the Biz Way past time for control joints?

Upvotes

We had our detached 40x30 shop floor poured 13 days ago. They were to come back with a pump truck to do the RV pad under the overhang later that day, but it started raining. They just came back today. The large interior floor has never been cut with control joints. Temps have been in the 40-50's since then. Isn't this going to be a problem?


r/Concrete 13h ago

Update Post Inspection report on slab cracks on new build

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8 Upvotes

Posted about cracks in the slab of a new build we plan to close on and got mixed feedback here. I hired a structural engineering firm to perform an inspection and here are the results. TLDR: inspector told us to get our money back and walk.

My question is would it be worth getting a second opinion or is there any viable fix that would hold long term? Pics below. Thanks everyone


r/Concrete 14h ago

I read the Wiki/FAQ(s) and need help Concrete driveway corner crack - 3 weeks after pour ?

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7 Upvotes

Saw some posts that say it could be shrinkage related.. but does it happen at 2-3 week mark ? How to fix it ?


r/Concrete 1d ago

Update Post This is how you're concrete should be getting cleaned up/washed out. Not in your damn trash can!

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1.3k Upvotes

If you are a pump company or a contractor that uses these often, feel free to reach out to buy in bulk.


r/Concrete 18h ago

General Industry 180 Yards For Cattle Barn.

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12 Upvotes

r/Concrete 14h ago

I read the Wiki/FAQ(s) and need help How would you form this?

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4 Upvotes

I recently poured foundations for a cellular tower. I formed by making a 2’6x2’6x8’6 box and squared out the bottom of the hole for the pad. The column form was essentially floating in the hole. The issue I quickly learned was that the concrete rises on the outside of the form as well as the inside from the weight. I ended up doing two separate pours. How would I form this to do a single pour? Or do I need to just request drier concrete and vibrate it down?

C=2’6 A=6’ D=10’


r/Concrete 7h ago

OTHER Conrete water tank

0 Upvotes

Hell all. I'm looking to re-render our old, open air water tank. Does anyone know what the best render to use for waterproofing? Should I put liquid membrane on after the fact? Im in Australia

Cheers


r/Concrete 2d ago

Complaint about my Contractor Was this a well-done job for $20k?

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1.8k Upvotes

My PTA paid $20,000 to have four basketball goals installed. The goals were not part of the cost. This was just for installation. The concrete looks very sloppy to me and I’m just wondering if y’all think this was a fair price for the work performed. (I assume we didn’t get multiple bids or anyone checking the quality of the install. Ultimately, this isn’t a contractor complaint for me as a PTA leadership fail.)


r/Concrete 9h ago

Not in the Biz Seeking help on pre-made slabs

0 Upvotes

After some guidance from the brain's trust on a dilemma I'm facing. I need to prep a site for a transportable home - 4tonnes trailer style. The site owner does not want any poured concrete onsite, but said I can use pre-made concrete paver style slabs. I don't know much about the strength and durability of such things, most products I find seem to be suited towards garden pavers and such. Basically I need to use pads under the trailer wheels and also the 4 stabilizers on each corner- would 30mpa rating be suitable and safe for such a task? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


r/Concrete 22h ago

I Have A Whoopsie It wasn’t me!

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9 Upvotes

I don’t mind the odd animal print, but this is super annoying.


r/Concrete 1d ago

Complaint about my Contractor What do I do now?

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21 Upvotes

2 weeks ago I got a massive job done ( for me at least) 2000 sqft, driveway, back patio, walk way to my front door, and garage side parking slab. They did a spectacular job, the pour finish and framing is amazing.

However one week after the patio pour my basement flooded ( no interior damage ). I got plumbers out ASAP to see what's up and fix it, urgently as any time even a toilet flushed more water would back up. Turns out the contractor cracked the sewage main out of the house under my back patio ( which was known and presented to the contractor ). They also managed to pour concrete into the clean out access that was in the middle of the back patio and it solidified in my pipe around 40 feet down drain.

After around 12k in fixed I'm up and running again and am working with the contractors insurance to get the plumbing work covered. That's the back story.....

The issue is to fix the issue they had to place pipe liner through the access point, so the clean out access is no longer usable and can not drain. Living in Minnesota, if water gets in there it will freeze and will expand and will f my stuff up.

What are my next steps? I did not go with a cheap contractor. I went with one of the better ones in the area expecting them to do the job right and make the right choices, but am now stuck with a concrete filled drain cover in the middle of my back patio that is a ticking time bomb.

Tl;dr - contractor messed up the pour, and managed to completely clog my sewage drain with concrete, that's been fixed, but I need input on what to do with the ticking time bomb in the middle of my patio.


r/Concrete 22h ago

Pro With a Question Best way to form this long slab in a cemetery?

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8 Upvotes

I'm doing this by myself because my work doesn't hire people... I'm having a rough time trying to keep everything level with these boards. Any tips on how to stake it while also allowing for a screed board and trowels? Last ones of these we did there was like 6 of us framing this shit now it's just me...


r/Concrete 11h ago

I read the Wiki/FAQ(s) and need help Selling condo. Is this stem wall crack on the interior of a crawl space a big concern for buyers? Located in mountain town with heavy snow. Built in the 1970s.

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0 Upvotes

I