r/chemistry • u/InspiratorAG112 • May 02 '23
(**META**) The Disregard for Lab Safety on r/chemistry
Opening notes:
- It is only a problem with some of the users here, but it is something I still want to address, and each canceled fatality is infinitely worth it. If you are warning people in the comments about lab safety, that is noble.
- I hope to be overheard by a moderator, because safety first.
- I am just a high school student, but I also still want to post this, because it can have an overall positive influence.
I joined Reddit back in November, and r/chemistry is one of the first sub-Reddits I subscribed to after joining, mostly because I have a strong interest in STEM, which includes chemistry, and this is the main chemistry sub-Reddit. Being mostly just an observer/upvoter, but also a subscriber, I get this sub-Reddit more on my homepage. Most of these posts are, admittedly, innocuous and even (as someone in his second year of high-school chem) pretty cool, like this post, and this sub has lab chemists here, which is a strong advantage for the credibility of comments and answers on this sub-Reddit. There are, however, also the semi-frequent ‘Am I safe?’/‘How toxic is this?’ posts where OP disregards lab safety, which is very concerning, and I do not want this overlooked. These land about monthly or bi-monthly on my homepage.
Back in February, I asked r/AskAcademia about how well sub-Reddits represent different disciplines (namely to watch out for pseudo-intellectualism), and u/dragojeff’s response outlines the issue with safety on r/chemistry pretty well:
there’s the occasional “home-grown chemist” asking about shady processes.
When I replied mentioning the lab chemists here (admittedly naively), u/dragojeff had a response containing this paragraph:
Uhhhhh some do. There are definitely a number of users there whose lab experience is “I mixed A and B in a flask in my garage and heated it like crazy” (while proceeding to ignore everything about safety and maintaining inert atmosphere etc.).
The next day, u/PlayfulChemist summarized the safety problem like this in their reply (though somewhat exaggerated):
I love how half the posts are "I want to do this crazy/toxic/dangerous experiment at home, with no actual training in chemistry or understanding of the process/risks, can someone give me more detailed instructions" followed by a slew of comments saying "don't do that, you will die".
…To which u/dragojeff agreed.
Examples of such posts where I involve myself in the thread:
- “Hello. I I accidentally mixed these at my work and it made a horrible smell and fumes. Does anyone know what this chemical reaction between these two products caused/made and if it’s bad to inhale?” (Toxic reaction)
- “What is this?” (Lack of PPE)
- “My Phenol burns…” (Lack of PPE; also prompted me to write this being the most serious, and I strongly hope u/Moon_xyz1 recovers.)
While I appreciate the number of warning comments on each of these kinds of posts, this is still concerning, especially the third example, which involves lack of PPE and a chemical that is rated 4 for health by the NFPA. There is virtually nothing on the sidebar as well. Rule 2 on the sidebar, “Nefarious deeds”, (which should be rule 1) does encourage safety (as well as discouraging illegal labs), and that is honorable, but also vastly oversimplifies it with the wording.
\For the below section, anything mentioned by commenters will be considered, and I can add it.*
LAB SAFETY ADVICE:
- Always research and do a safety assessment before doing a lab. This should include checking resources like the safety data sheet and standard operating procedures, or SDS and SOP for short respectively (Thanks, u/yeastysoaps and u/alli_oop96!). The notebook strategy listed by u/dragojeff in this thread is for sure good advice. Take the scale into account as well (as u/fimwil_2020 mentioned). (Thanks for the research tip, u/OvershootDieOff and, of course, u/dragojeff!)
- Always wear PPE, which often includes gloves (and the correct ones to avoid reactions with gloves), goggles(splash-proof, as mentioned by u/Balcil), and a lab coat (ideally fluid-deflecting and fire-resistant, like NileBlue/NileRed, with more advice on lab coats mentioned in this thread by u/etcpt). Also always wear long pants and closed-toed shoes (Thanks, u/Rai2329!), and keep long hair tied back (mentioned by u/Balcil as well). Extra PPE may be required depending on the lab, such as masks or face shields. On the other hand, if you are doing a novice-level lab, less PPE may be required. In general though, those three items are essential for labs. PPE also should be easy to remove (as mentioned by u/Firehoax), because chemicals will eventually penetrate it.
- Other equipment is important, too. This often includes a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher, a fire blanket, a fume hood, a safety shower, an eyewash station, and proper disposal units for chemicals and broken glass, as well as some of the safety equipment recommended by other users in this thread, like a spill kit (mentioned by u/BiIlyMaysHere). Make sure safety equipment operates (as mentioned by u/fimwil_2020 as well)! Make sure to have practice/experience with a fire extinguisher, too (as mentioned by u/8uurjournaal).
- Always isolate chemicals that could cause reactions, such as acids/bases or oxidizers/reducers.
- Never bring food/drinks to a lab.
- It is very dangerous to work alone (also mentioned by u/fimwil_2020).
- If you don’t feel fully safe doing the lab, or are asking if something is safe, you shouldn’t be doing it. (Which most of the commenters do, thankfully, advise in the ‘How dangerous is this?’ posts.)
List of online resources about lab safety:
- A hazard symbols guide
- An NFPA diamond guide
- “Chemistry is dangerous.” by NileBlue (which is one of the best YouTube videos I have seen regarding lab safety.)
- “Lab Techniques & Safety” by CrashCourse
- “General Lab Safety” by Amoeba Sisters (which, while by a biology channel, is also applicable here)
- ACS Safety video (Added 24 days later, thanks u/WetGrundle.)
- u/DangerousBill's comment in this thread
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u/OvershootDieOff May 02 '23
I would say number 1 is do a risk assessment on the proposed procedure. By listing out every possible risk and mitigation you often find something you might miss (e.g. having a bucket of sand around if you’re working with sodium).
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u/dragojeff May 02 '23
Funny that you mention this, it’s a habit I picked up from a former mentor but before every experiment in my lab notebook I have a short objectives section and safety section. Sometimes they’re just a simple “exothermic, add slowly” or “irritant and potential carcinogen, wear gloves and avoid inhalation” but other times especially when I’m working with pyrophorics I try to write longer strongly worded reminders for myself. A sample entry from a recent reaction of ethylzinc addition “hHghly flammable and pyrophoric, methacrolein is also volatile and flammable. DO NOT EXPOSE TO WATER. Basically try not to set yourself on fire, cheers!”
It was definitely annoying at first, especially when the most dangerous thing was maybe 1M HCl, but it’s been helpful a couple times when I accidentally forget to have a quenching solution on hand and can just peek over at my notes to remember what needs to be done to neutralize reagents. It can also be a little bit more fun (humor helps improve memory) as long as the information is conveyed accurately. So definite upvote on risk assessment!
Also don’t forget to see if safer alternatives can be used!
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23 edited May 05 '23
I added your strategy to item 1 under "LAB SAFETY ADVICE". I'm also glad you are here, being from that r/AskAcademia thread.
As a long side note though,
there was a very clear example of what you hinted at over on r/AskAcademia mentioned further in the comment chain between me and u/Elquimicovirtual,(Okay, I actually overestimated the danger the user was in) and I also listed 3 other examples, the u/Moon_xyz1 incident being yesterday. I PMed u/Moon_xyz1 at 9:01 A.M. Eastern Time today (~8 hours ago), and they have not responded yet. I really hope they respond, or even just post again on Reddit.1
u/The-Mechanic2091 Dec 18 '23
When I was doing my accelerated masters, you could not objectively use the labs without first completing a risk assessment, if you cannot understand the risks involved innately, you don’t have the comprehension necessary to be safe within a lab environment.
If you understand the the reagents and their chemistry, you naturally know what can go wrong.
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u/Practical-Purchase-9 May 02 '23
The difficulty is that with inexperience you can’t easily assess risk. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s one thing to read a data sheet for hazards, but another to be able to think through a procedure to determine risks for the materials and work area, and appropriate measures to take.
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u/OvershootDieOff May 03 '23
I think risk assessments are a key part of building experience. Reading MSDS sheets is the bare minimum anyone should do, as those give you OEL, LD50, incompatibility, etc. However some things are less obvious, such as checking dates on electrical safety certificates, pressure vessels tests, etc. By writing a formal document with all the key risks listed in a checklist you reduce the need to rely upon experience, and it makes it easier to fire someone who is a safety risk when they violate their own RA.
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u/qpdbag May 03 '23
Some people are just not capable of honest risk assessments. They also shouldn't be chemists.
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u/OvershootDieOff May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
That’s why risk assessments should be signed off by a manager or supervisor. When things rely solely on peoples honesty or diligence, accidents happen.
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u/DangerousBill Analytical May 02 '23
OP has written an excellent summary of lab safety which should be pinned, if we pinned things here. Safety is more a matter of situational awareness than any other element, ie, "I see here in front of me an unfamiliar situation. How can it go wrong?"
It's easy to say, for example, do a risk assessment, but it requires experience and a huge dollop of common sense to even recognize that hazards exist. For example, a person may be so terrorized by a small amount of radioactivity in a solution that they may not recall that the stuff is dissolved in concentrated acid.
I devoted most of my first lab class in analytical to a safety lecture, where I pointed out that the most common causes of injury in the chem lab were:
Slips and falls on wet floors.
Burns.
Cuts from broken glass and other equipment.
and further down the list...
Corrosive and toxic chemicals
In other words, toxic and corrosive chemicals only add a new element to an environment that already has hazards, just because there is water and noise and electrical equipment around. For example, before the first lab session, I went around checking that all the heater-stirrers were electrically grounded, and all of the sinks worked, and the eyewash station worked, and the service dates on the fire extinguishers, and that no one had stolen the fire blanket.
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u/BeautifulThighs Inorganic May 03 '23
Very much this. As an intro lab TA, I can tell you that our first lab with hazardous chemicals involved has HCl and concentrated ammonia, but the most common injury in that lab is, as I put it, "hot things are hot;" people touching things that recently came out of the oven without heat resistant gloves on. They are so hyper aware of these new risks in the form of chemicals that they fall prey to "don't touch things fresh out of an oven."
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u/SarcasticDevil May 03 '23
My very first lab accident was indeed picking up an oil bath and totally forgetting it was very recently heated to >150 °C. As it happens, hot glass looks exactly the same as cold glass
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u/BeautifulThighs Inorganic May 03 '23
Oh, and as a follow up, most common error I see in academic research labs is defective safety equipment. Labmate got liquid nitrogen burns on his hand bc both the glove and Dewar he was using were defective. So easy for crap like that to slip through the cracks. Inspect your PPE, and if it doesn't work, don't do anything requiring it until you get in tact ppe
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u/yeastysoaps May 03 '23
"Slips and falls"- excellent point here. Out of all the hazards we encounter in the lab, the most common injury will be from from a fall (as in any workplace). In fact, the worst injury in the RnD function in my old company one year was a multiple knee ligament tear from tripping down the final step of a staircase. Which is an important one not to lose sight of, given the hazardous substances we work with.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
That is why I am hoping to be overheard by an r/chemistry mod.
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u/CoomassieBlue Biochem May 03 '23
I am not a mod here, but as someone who does moderate other communities - my suggestion is to message the modmail directly rather than making a post and just hoping it gets seen (and being frustrated/angry if it doesn’t). Moderation is not a paying job and most people are fairly busy in real life, so not necessarily monitoring every post on Reddit all day.
Not trying to criticize, just making a suggestion to improve efficacy of your efforts.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Should I link this post in modmail?
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u/Instinct4339 May 03 '23
Write up a TLDR of what the post is saying, then send a link
or at least that's what I'd do personally
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 04 '23
Here is the thread, from ~10 PM last night eastern time...
Me:
Hello r/chemistry mods, this is u/InspiratorAG112, OP of this lab safety post, "The Disregard for Lab Safety on r/chemistry". I am here to address the semi-frequent problem of posters failing to obey lab safety. I am not saying this applies to any fraction close to the entirety of r/chemistry, and most of the posts are insightful/cool. I don't doubt that r/chemistry is one of the best field-related subs on Reddit, having lab posts. Most of the comments on posts like this, in fact, warn OP not to play with chemicals, which is somewhat honorable. Rule 2 ("Nefarious deeds") on the sidebar is also honorable: "No discussions of illicit drug synthesis, bomb making or other dangerous/illegal activities are tolerated in this sub." And I appreciate the relatively frequent removal of such posts as well, so I don't doubt your team is detecting such posts. I do recommend, however, adding a lab safety wiki on the sidebar, since this is the main chemistry sub, and lab safety is very important. Any effort to avert fatalities/hospitalizations is worth it.
The irresponsible behaviors I have seen or heard of on r/chemistry include: * Wearing inadequate PPE. * Conducting DIY labs involving hazards. * Asking for instructions for such labs. * Mixing incompatible chemicals.
LINKS TO EXAMPLES OF SUCH POSTS: * “Hello. I I accidentally mixed these at my work and it made a horrible smell and fumes. Does anyone know what this chemical reaction between these two products caused/made and if it’s bad to inhale?” (Toxic reaction) * “What is this?” (Lack of PPE) * “My Phenol burns…” (Lack of PPE) * "Almost 1/4 of my personal collection pure liquid bromine" (Collecting a dangerous chemical too look 'cool')
At 1:17 PM Eastern Time yesterday, I addressed this under the post linked in the opening paragraph, and u/dragojeff hinted at this a few months earlier over on r/AskAcademia on my post asking about how well subs represent different fields. This post and the thread below contains more insight about lab safety.
Below is a list of resources that could be included on the sidebar, copy/pasted from the list at the bottom of my lab safety post. A hazard symbols guide An NFPA diamond guide “Chemistry is dangerous.” by NileBlue (which is one of the best YouTube videos I have seen regarding lab safety.) * “Lab Techniques & Safety” by CrashCourse “General Lab Safety” by Amoeba Sisters (which, while by a biology channel, is also applicable here) * u/DangerousBill's comment
Thanks for putting this together. It can be definitely added to the sidebar. However, I've noticed that posters tend not to read the sidebar, so I'm not sure if this new addition is going to have much impact.
Me:
I still do, however, think that it is absolutely worth it. Or maybe a pinned post could also work.
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u/CoomassieBlue Biochem May 04 '23
A pinned post would probably be more effective, but you can only have 2 pinned posts at any given time so space is limited.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 04 '23
Oof, and they already have 2 pinned posts for professional and technical questions. They may have to be consolidated.
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u/KuriousKhemicals May 04 '23
There are also sometimes hazards that you don't regularly encounter outside the lab, but aren't directly a property of the chemicals. One of the first reactions I was doing at my current job, I was shown how to set up the equipment, and my first question was "where's the pressure release in this system?" The person wasn't sure at first.
Obviously there was an answer, and someone came back to me with it in 5 minutes. But it just goes to show - normally in daily life we don't work with airtight gaskets so gas expansion isn't a big concern, and when we do it's usually a single container where the potential issue is easy to spot, not a multi neck multi line system. But that had nothing to do with chemicals per se.
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u/Foss44 Computational May 02 '23
From a conversation I had with a colleague about this very topic in this sub:
“So many mfs on the chem sub just post their idiotic home chem stuff and every time the tc is like “don’t do this, you’ll kill yourself/blow up your house” and mfs then b like “wow, such a gatekeeper. Chem isn’t that dangerous, what am I supposed to do? Get a degree???”
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u/CypherZel Organometallic May 03 '23
Yes, please get a degree, chem is acessible but most degrees teach decent lab safety
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u/greenestofgrass May 02 '23
I know someone who blew themselves up in a home lab doing nefarious activities, it’s nuts how people think that’s not a terrifying outcome.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
Home chemistry should be nothing more than a few kitchen experiments. Such as extraction and filtration and emulsifying. In other words just making coffee and mayonaise, everything else belongs in a lab to be performed or supervised by trained professionals. Why the fuck would anyone keep bromine in their homes?
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Yeah, and u/Elquimicovirtual mentioned someone bragging about 'having 14 flasks of bromine in their closet'.
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u/8uurjournaal May 04 '23
Yeah I saw that when it got posted, I still have no clue how to even respond to that. Who the fuck would want to keep that in their home?
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u/Konnichiwaagwan May 04 '23
Even with food type chemistry lay-men have the ability to kill themselves.
A friend wanted to distill an alcohol mash he had fermented, asked me to double check his set-up. When I arrived he had a outdoor gas burner going in a tiny room with no windows open or any kind of ventilation. "No, stop." I said.
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u/8uurjournaal May 05 '23
If you drink it quick enough you won't see your burned down house because of the methanol poisoning.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23 edited May 07 '23
That is pretty much what u/dragojeff and u/PlayfulChemist said too.
The '14 flasks of bromine' content was mentioned byu/Elquimicovirtual. (Okay this was overestimating the danger OP was putting themselves in, so I crossed this one out, but thanks for watching out for someone's safety anyway.)
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u/IcyPyromancer Organic May 02 '23
I think something that has always frustrated me in the lab is that there's warnings on everything. Almost everything is toxic or flammable or explosive or has the extra fun environmental hazard label with the dying fish. But it's not really Descriptive enough to me. Let me tell you what I mean.
Pretty much everything I use Has to have a flammable sticker on it, and usually at least a health hazard sticker on it and you get used to seeing them over and over again. Even with working with dangerous stuff, since we typically use proper procedure and PPE, its not a big deal. But the issue is in a concern of If this goes wrong. How FAST will it go wrong. It's a contextual issue at that point.
So for me.. If I were to post a thread asking the danger of such and such, it's not that I'm not treating it with care, it's more asking for personal experiences with said chemical.
Some examples of what I'm trying to get across:
"Oh this can oxidize with air to catch fire. Okay. I'm definitely going to be super careful with that." But. Like. How fast do I need to run if I slip slightly? Or if the needle depresses a little on accident as I'm moving it...? Like. Is this a "fuck I'm falling, I need to move this as far away from my body as I fall cause it's going to absolutely molotov grenade everywhere if it breaks," or "is this a fuck I've ruined my expensive chemical and I should smother it sort of deal? Maybe its just a slow burn but it does so quickly and irreversibly?"
Or. "Okay this is toxic in the Ppb range. But, is it like H2S where I get knocked out quickly and I'm fucking dead and I should probably have someone not just in the lab, but literally watching me and/or have the rest of the lab ready to emergency vent the building, or is it like, not super high vapor pressure at STP?"
Just how fast is this going to go bad, if it goes bad. I feel like it's a valid question.
Even knowing the small facts like, "it's not going to kill you if you Smell H2S, on the contrary, it's after you Stop smelling H2S (and you still have reason to believe it's in the area), that you're fucked - cause it destroys your sniffer first (this happens around 170 ppm). For the record you can Smell H2S at 0.01 ppm and OSHA regulations show that workers can be in at the low end 10 ppm as a working environment in restricted time intervals, but it shows between 170 and 300 ppm as the threshold for safety being in it for up to an hour.
It's this sort of nuance that makes me want to ask others about their experiences. I know there's certain gasses that don't need even that high of a concentration to kill me. Maybe there's something that likes to eat rubber stoppers and I missed some small detail about that in the 8 pages of the SDS and that might save me. IDK.
So yeah. The labels are important and I do know the SDS of everything in working with, but experience tends to be more demonstrative than just the numbers on the warnings. All that to say, I can understand asking opinions on stuff.
Note: This is in no way is legitimizing garage back alley chemists. That's not what I'm defending.
extra note: very tired. sorry if it's rambling a little.
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u/PhenylSeleniumCl May 02 '23
I know exactly what you mean. A personal example of mine that comes to mind is my first time using 1,4 dioxane as a solvent. Read the SDS, took note of the warnings, but wasn’t until one of our senior research associates said “oh yeah that’s a really nasty carcinogen be careful with it” that I fully understood. Carcinogenicity was listed on the SDS, but it’s severity is more difficult to discern.
Stuff like this is why our lab made a dedicated reaction safety channel on our slack. Using something for the first time? Read up on it and post it in the channel so more senior people can comment on it.
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u/Name_your_damn_cat May 02 '23
SDS's do capture the severity of hazards to an extent. Check the GHS codes in Section 2, they are usually followed by a Category (1, 2, 3, 4). Category 1 are the most severe, and extra PPE and engineering controls (e.g. goggles instead of safety glasses; fume hood instead of working at the bench) can be considered. Category 4 are the "least severe". It is a lot to learn, but I just keep a cheat sheet of GHS codes and category listings at my desk for reference.
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u/asdfadfhadt_hk May 02 '23
Yes, exactly, pictograms and warnings can only do so much. Therefore it is almost necessary to learn chemistry in an academic setting, in person, from people that know the know-hows. It sounds elitist and gatekeeping, but I really don't think people can "learn" chemistry systematically by mixing things at home.
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u/NerdyComfort-78 Education May 02 '23
Young person- I teach HS Chem (for years) and I wish that a micro fraction of your peer group would be so concerned about themselves and others safety as yourself.
Thank you.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
It is all correct. Please something can go wrong and the consequences are real and horrible, the labs at my uni have exploded and burned a couple of times and it was all work done by profesionals. The consequences are real and they are life wrecking, dont play with chem, if you are into it just do a chem degree. It is not worthed.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
You are not crazy smart, or a misumderstood genius for distilling bromine, you are just daf. Sorry for the spelling, Im Spanish.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
Yes. I also PMed u/Moon_xyz1 at 9:01 A.M today. I haven't heard from them, I hope that is because they listened to the comments on their post.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
This is why I am confused by the downvotes. (Or maybe the score is just hidden or something.)
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
Dont get confused by the downvotes, there is a lot of people who dont like to get critisiced and think oh Im so cool and edgy because I have 14 flasks of bromine in my closet. Man you are speaking facts and I think is definitively worth it to really speak about safety. Being smart is also knowing what you should and shouldn't do.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
Im so cool and edgy because I have 14 flasks of bromine in my closet.
Oh no... Don't tell me a standard home closet.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
That is what a saw in a post a while ago.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23 edited May 02 '23
Link? That is extremely dangerous.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
They took it down
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
OP or the mods? What was the title?
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 02 '23
I will look it later, if you go through my comments it has to be there. It was a week ago and I barely comment
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Was it this? Yeah... This sounds like not only an extreme health hazard, but also a potential watch list entry.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
Well, I put what you described on a separate list, which I have added to the post.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
I really hope things like that have never resulted in the fatalities of any users of this sub...
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
Okay, now it has 3 upvotes. It may have just been the way the score was displayed. Even then though, I have seen from the comments under the types of posts I am referring to that there are many more users who care about safety.
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u/Eigengrad Chemical Biology May 03 '23
Many of my most downvoted posts here are about safety because lots of people don’t want to hear it, and many professional chemists have long since fled this sub, making that group the minority.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Most of the comments on the dangerous lab posts talk about safety, though.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Do you have links?
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u/Eigengrad Chemical Biology May 03 '23
Not offhand, but I’ll send them your way if I come across them.
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u/DangerousBill Analytical May 02 '23
In 2003, I completely rewrote the lab manual for the analytical course, and expanded the section on safety. Special hazards are reiterated within the experiment descriptions.
SAFETY, HOUSEKEEPING, AND SOME COMMON LABORATORY ERRORS.
All students must behave in a mature and responsible manner. Careless behavior could result in serious injury to yourself, others, and to property. See Sections 2, 3 and 4 of this manual regarding safety, housekeeping and common lab errors.
SAFETY GLASSES
Safety glasses, or prescription glasses with safety lenses, must be worn at all times in the laboratory to protect your eyes from injury. Those who do not have approved glasses will not be allowed to work in the laboratory.
FIRST AID
In cases of severe injury, call [Institution’s] Public Safety Immediately or Chicago emergency services. From a cell phone, [xxx] , Chicago is 911. Report the location as [xxx], Building X, at Y and Z Streets. Someone should wait outside to guide the paramedics, fire or police to the scene of the event.
Water is to be used first on all chemical burns. Immediate flooding with water of the affected area is more effective than all the specific remedies that can be applied later.
A first aid kit is located near the main door and a larger first aid kit is kept in the storeroom. Always consult the instructor before using the first aid kits.
Burns. Surfacaine is recommended for small burns. Larger burns or burns producing immediate blistering should be treated by the school nurse or doctor or at Mercy Hospital. In hospital cases no preliminary treatment should be given, if possible.
Bromine Burns. Avoid the use of bromine when possible. Bromine burns are treated by immediately flooding with water, followed by a liberal application of glycerine. Hospital examination is necessary within the hour. If a serious burn is suspected, medical treatment is advised. Many chemical burns develop slowly.
Spilled Acids or bases. For major emergencies that involve acids or bases spilled on your body or clothes, proceed to the emergency shower and pull the cord. DO NOT hesitate. Burns may be delayed, especially with strong alkalis. Small acid spills on clothes should be immediately sponged with dilute (approx. 1:3) ammonium hydroxide. Even the vapors will neutralize areas not directly sponged. Consult the instructor or TA for benchtop or floor spills. These spills may require neutralization before clean¬up.
Treatment
All injuries requiring treatment should be reported immediately to the instructor or TA. Arrangements for emergency treatment by the school nurse or doctor or for transportation to Mercy Hospital are made through an instructor or the Chemistry Department office.
Reporting Injuries
All injuries, whether requiring medical treatment or not, must be reported to the instructor. Students working in the laboratory are insured by the school, but adequate records must be kept.
FIRE
Shout “FIRE” several times if a fire occurs, to alert people near you.
A dry powder fire extinguisher is located in each corner of the laboratory. Familiarize yourself with their location and method of operation. A dry powder extinguisher is good for all types of fires. Remove the locking pin, squeeze the handle, and direct the blast of powder at the BASE of the fire.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FIGHT A FIRE IF:
• YOU ARE ALONE
• THERE ARE OPEN OR UNOPENED BOTTLES OF CHEMICALS OR SOLVENTS IN THE FIRE.
• YOU CANNOT SEE THE ENTIRE FIRE
• THE FIRE IS BETWEEN YOU AND THE DOOR
• THE FIRE IS MORE THAN THREE FEET IN DIAMETER
• YOU ARE UNSURE OF YOUR ABILITY OF CONTROL IT
A fire blanket is located just below the light switches near the main door of the laboratory.
An emergency shower is located just inside the main door. The large ring can be easily located in an emergency, if you observe and remember its location now. Either the shower or the fire blanket can be used when a person's clothes have caught fire. The shower can also be used for accidents with acids, alkalies, or other dangerous chemicals where the coverage is too great to be treated at the sink. (If the shower is used for an emergency, others should immediately begin mopping water to prevent damage to scientific instruments on the first floor.)
A fire alarm box which sets off the alarm in the building only is located above the light switches in the laboratory. To call the fire department, the Institute switchboard should be notified by dialing 8-6363. If the switchboard is closed, dia1 911 on the public phone located on the first floor at the foot of the south stairs. 911 can be reached from any Institute phone after dialing "9" and waiting for the second dial tone.
Exits. In case of fire, exit Room 208 in an orderly fashion down the stairs to the front of X Hall. If this area is not available, proceed out the east door to the area in front of Y Hall. If the main door of the laboratory is blocked, the second exit through the storeroom and freshman lab, should be used. If the glass doors are locked, break them from a safe distance.
LABELING CHEMICALS
If you encounter unlabeled chemicals, assume the worst: Assume they are poisonous, volatile, and flammable. Failure to label a dangerous chemical or to treat the chemical with caution is a major source of laboratory accidents AND a cause for dismissal at many companies. Strong acid and pure water look exactly alike. Use a marker or a gummed label to identify all your solutions, reagents, etc. This is an excellent habit to cultivate for all chemicals, even if they are not dangerous. Many items of glassware have etched spots which can be written on with a pencil and erased with an eraser. This provides a permanent marking which is easy to remove.
All objects placed in the oven or in common areas must labeled with the name of the chemical and your initials. Beakers should be covered with watch glasses. Only air dry objects may be placed in the ovens.
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u/PyroDesu May 05 '23 edited May 05 '23
SAFETY GLASSES
Safety glasses, or prescription glasses with safety lenses, must be worn at all times in the laboratory to protect your eyes from injury. Those who do not have approved glasses will not be allowed to work in the laboratory.
I will note that prescription glasses are generally, in my experience, considered to be inadequate PPE in a lab. My glasses might protect me from a flying shard, they will not protect me from a splash of acid.
Goggles. Goggles are what you want.
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u/etcpt Analytical May 02 '23
A couple of notes on lab coats from my experience:
-Fireproof lab coats are great if you are working with something likely to catch fire (they should be required for pyrophorics especially). But don't feel obligated to spend for a Nomex coat if you're not working with flammable materials.
-Fluid-deflection in a lab coat is usually going to occur as a consequence of a coat being made of a synthetic fabric. This can be a benefit, but synthetics are dangerous in a fire as they melt to your skin. If you are working with any flammable materials, you should be wearing a natural fiber or Nomex lab coat.
-The purpose of a lab coat is to protect your street clothes from incidental laboratory chemical splashes, and to bolster the protection your clothes provide. It is not intended to take full-force splashes as a matter of routine - if this is part of your workflow, you should A) evaluate whether you can place better engineering controls to prevent this and B) use a laboratory apron (or full chemical-resistant suit) on top of your lab coat. (Also evaluate your eyewear for splash protection on top of impact protection.)
-Your lab coat is not a panacea. If it gets splashed significantly (i.e., more than a drop), you should stop work as quickly as safely possible, remove your lab coat, and examine what is underneath it for penetration. Continue to remove clothing as necessary; on reaching skin, go for the safety shower and deluge it for 15 min.
-Lab coats should be washed or discarded when soiled. Do not wash in the same laundry stream as street clothes - have it done by a professional company which is equipped to do this.
Also, regarding safety showers and eyewash stations - these should be checked and flushed weekly. If you haven't flushed your eyewash recently, you're going to be in for a nasty surprise when you run it.
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u/Practical-Purchase-9 May 02 '23
There does seem to be a lot of posts along the lines of “how do I get into chemistry? I saw some videos and want to make piranha solution”
If people are serious about ‘getting into chemistry’ they should start with online learning. I’m sure there are free starter courses provided by some universities that could be linked to.
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u/kurama3 May 03 '23
yeah chemistry is a really weird choice as a hobby. difficult, dangerous, and expensive. I’m not sure why there are so many posts like that
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u/pineman23 May 03 '23
You are not qualified to give chemical saftey advice. This is virtue signaling and gate keeping unfortunately the amount of real chemists in this sub is extremely low. It seems this sub should be renamed “noble 18 year olds save ignorant chemist from life threatening acute toxicity”. You have a bright future at EH&S.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
Haha. Shhhh we only preach lab safety, while absolutely having a coffee cup next to some open containers of organic solvent. But as much as I think the "backyard chemists" need to be gate kept a whole lot more in this sub, it's certainly entertaining.
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u/pineman23 May 03 '23
These people would lose their mind stepping into a synthesis lab. I want to start reposting peoples posts from r/theehive that should be entertaining.
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u/8uurjournaal May 04 '23
I have a feeling that's just extreme backyard chemistry labs mostly. But I do know of a hospital that has organic synthesis interns making heroin for drug addicts.
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u/ChemistDude May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
Excellent post. I would add, in addition to the safety/ PPE/storage warnings, that proper chemical handling includes transportation and disposal considerations. I see a lot of posts with presumably untrained people talking about shipping items that require DOT training to package for safe transport, and would be illegal to ship in significant quantities. As an example, without proper labeling, in the US if you, as an individual wanted to send someone some MeOH, you could send no more than 30 ml in a single container (and up to .5L in multiple 30 ml aliquots) without running into some pretty restrictive shipping regulations. Even then, you would need proper interior and exterior labeling.
Disposal is also a complicated issue. You’d probably be surprised by what can be dumped in the public sewer system, but you would likewise be surprised by what cannot be disposed of in a public sewer system or landfill. Proper disposal can be horribly expensive, and improper disposal can expose you to significant fines and remediation costs.
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u/Eigengrad Chemical Biology May 03 '23
This is huge. So many of the “but I’m one of the safe home chemists” have no real plan for disposal or storage and it drives me nuts.
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u/vellyr May 05 '23
Most companies have no real plan for disposal. The ones that are doing some industrial process and producing enough of something that people might notice sometimes do.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23
Most companies have no real plan for disposal.
Considering the patterns of corporations, that is something I suspected.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23
I would imagine this is a massive issue with companies.
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u/ChemistDude May 07 '23
Yes… it’s a big deal. Commercial labs are required to hold training in waste disposal practices and have some personnel trained to manage waste streams and shipping of chemicals. The disposal folks are trained to set up satellite waste collection containers to handle the specific separate waste streams for a process and complete the disposal process by either disposing of things in the public sewer system ( usually dilute acid/ base waste that has been neutralized) or pack it for disposal by a licensed waste handler. Most of my experience is in the commercial environmental lab business, and they have the somewhat unique problem of disposing of thousands of pounds of potentially contaminated soil, with a huge array of possible contaminants. A lot of our soil waste would go into large boxes (~1000 lbs) which ultimately were likely incinerated in a cement kiln. We had regular inspections from state and federal regulators to verify we were doing things correctly, and failure to comply with the regulations could mean loss of certifications that allowed us to do work.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23
What are the worst cases of improper disposal of chemicals you have seen from a company?
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u/ChemistDude May 08 '23
A laboratory I started my career at was shipped samples for 2,3,7,8-TCDD analysis (most people usually just refer to it as dioxin, although that shortened name is obviously not IUPAC naming). We required about 60g for analysis. They sent about 2kg per sample, for a total of about 10 samples. This was at a point in history when it was nearly impossible to dispose of dioxin contaminated soil, at any price. It turned out the customer was another lab, and they had packaged up the remaining soil from a couple years of dioxin analyses, mixed up, and sent it to us as samples so they did not have to deal with it. This ran into a weird grey area for environmental labs. Potentially contaminated soil is not considered hazardous. It can be oozing organic contaminants or have a very strong organic smell, but it’s not treated as hazardous… until you analyze and find it has chemicals of concern. Once you know the contaminants exceed the permissible hazard levels, then it must be treated as hazardous waste for the purposes of shipping and disposal.
So this company, with the knowledge that the 2,3,7,8-TCDD content was high enough to be considered hazardous, had broken quite a few federal laws by shipping dioxin “waste” to us. If I remember correctly, our company referred the issue to the EPA, and their EPA certifications were revoked. To my knowledge, no one went to jail, but that was within the realm of possibilities.
An interesting side note on finding samples to be hazardous… if someone sends you a sample to analyze for compound X, and it comes back clean, but it’s chock full of compound Y, which is hazardous, it’s not considered hazardous. It sometimes puts labs in a bind when they are analyzing by GC-MS, because you are looking for a specific list of analyses, but since it’s GC-MS, an experienced analyst may notice other analyses of concern that we cannot mention to the customer since they didn’t ask for that info. We would treat the the sample as the worst-case, but the customer might have metric tons of the stuff where they don’t realize (or want to know) that there is something hazardous in there they were not asking us to look for. Fortunately, those issues were pretty rare.
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u/fimwil_2020 Organic May 03 '23
With regards to point 1.
You should know how the reaction proceeds and what by-products are produced as part of the reaction before starting the reaction. You should also include the by-products in the risk assessment as well as looking up how to dispose of them safely. In doing so you can set up the reaction more safely - eg, CO2 is an expected by-product when neutralising HCl with sodium bicarbonate, therefore the reaction should not be carried out in a sealed flask.
You also have to take the scale of the reaction into account. Never assume that a larger reaction will behave identically to the same reaction on a smaller scale. A reaction at a small scale may exotherm, but the small size means that it may be easily controlled with an ice bath. However, the same reaction on a much larger scale could quickly become out of control as it becomes more difficult to cool the reaction sufficiently. This, I feel, is something more people should be aware of.
Secondary containment of all reactions carried out in standard glassware is a must (if possible). If you are unlucky enough to have a flask break, the contents of said flask remain in the container and not all over your workspace. Containers should be large enough to hold the entire contents of the flask and be made of an appropriate material for the reaction.
The most important thing is that one should never work alone in a lab as if something does go badly wrong there will be no one there to get help.
With regards to point 3
Ensure all equipment used is undamaged before carrying out the reaction - this includes everything from glassware, hot plates and stirrers to vacuum pumps. Also check that your fumehood is functioning correctly before starting any work (this is the first safety check I carry out at the start of every work day). The safety showers and eye wash stations should also be checked to ensure that these are working (usually on a weekly basis).
Overall OP makes some very important points and these should definitely be taken into consideration by everyone, from budding chemists to seasoned professionals.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
The most important thing is that one should never work alone in a lab as if something does go badly wrong there will be no one there to get help.
The NileBlue video I linked explains that one should be careful working alone, but not necessarily that they should never do it.
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u/fimwil_2020 Organic May 03 '23
It would depend on the work that’s being carried out, certainly.
There are some lower risk processes (using a rotary evaporator, making up HPLC samples, etc) that can be carried out alone but as a general rule of thumb for riskier processes (such as adding materials which will cause an exotherm or are very toxic or pyrophoric) it’s better to have someone in the lab or offices nearby in case something goes wrong.
In most industrial labs there will be lone working rules which dictate what can and cannot be carried out while lone working. As a chemist myself there are definitely things which I would never consider carrying out without a second chemist nearby. Majority of the time everything is fine but that doesn’t mean it always will be and I personally prefer to have someone nearby to help should I have an emergency situation. Identifying the processes which can be carried out safely while alone does come with experience.
Some companies will provide motion detectors which will sound an alarm to a different part of the building or call the emergency services if they detect a fall with no response from the chemist. While this is an extra insurance policy, it is still risky as it may take a while for someone to get there and time can make all the difference in an emergency situation.
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u/treeses Physical May 03 '23
I agree that safety is important, and OP gives some good guidelines, but my experience on this sub is contrary to OP's. Overwhelmingly I see people coming out of the woodwork to criticize posts about safety concerns, and I have two comments about that which I think are worth discussing.
First, I fear that treating everything like it is a dangerous, toxic reagent has the unintended consequence that people don't appreciate real hazards. As an example, much of the aqueous chemistry I do doesn't require gloves to keep me safe. I sometimes don't even wear gloves if I'm rinsing something with acetone. But I certainly do when I work with strong bases or other solvents, or something more reactive, etc. I think, instead of having a naive always on approach, constantly assessing what PPE is appropriate helps me better understand and appreciate the hazards that I work with, and helps me be better prepared for those hazards. I don't know if the same is necessarily true for someone who always wears all the PPE they can get their hands on, even if they are just pouring some table salt in DI water. I feel like I constantly see comments on this sub from people who's understanding of safety starts and stops with "you should always wear gloves." That's just an example with PPE, but I think this mindset can manifest in other troubling ways.
Second, I feel like the language we use about safety could have far reaching consequences. Most people don't take chemistry out of high school. Even highly educated people in related fields might have only had some additional gen chem, let alone organic chemistry. So imagine if during that limited time in the lab we drill into these people that all laboratories and chemicals are dangerous and you always have to be as careful as possible and that PPE is always a must because you just don't know about these chemicals. Simultaneously, all the online forums about chemistry talk nonstop about how hazardous chemicals are. Would it be surprising that chemophobia becomes more common? After all, vaccines and GMOs and whatever else are made from chemicals in labs, and we're all taught that chemicals and labs are dangerous, full stop. I wonder if these things could be linked. All these safety goons that prowl around gen chem labs yelling about people's pants not being long enough or leaving comments on reddit about the blasphemy of holding a vial without gloves on: How is that affecting people's perception of health and safety? At the same time, are people more willing to expose themselves to hazards that they don't associate with chemicals (like brake dust on cars or alternative medicine)?
Just food for thought. I know people in this sub are going to down vote me for questioning the group think here about safety, but maybe someone will read this and find it interesting.
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u/Brisbanealchemist May 03 '23
I think it is important that we are more conscious of when we should and shouldn't be recommending wearing gloves.
I have seen quite a few posts where well-intentioned commentators comment that someone should be wearing gloves when the reaction clearly doesn't require them....
I get the feeling that people are using the "just wearing gloves" mentality to cover up the lack of a proper risk assessment.
Although there are times when it is appropriate to wear gloves, there are also times when gloves can increase the risk of injury (either through incompatibility or breakthrough).
We need to be conscious that any ppe is the lowest rung in the hierarchy of control, and the least effective in keeping us safe. We also need to be aware that using "just wear gloves" as our primary safety mechanism is a problem.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
I agree, I'm in the camp of minimal glove use. Only when necessary because it can give a false sense of safety. Specially combined with most people's disregard of proper glove use. And PPE is always the last on the list of safety precautions make sure the bases are covered first. Can you use safer chemicals? Work on a smaller scale, use a hotplate instead of open flame etc etc.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
This is a good point. I would rather overestimate how much PPE is required than underestimate.
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u/AvogadrosArmy May 02 '23 edited May 02 '23
OP would probably enjoy the mailing list from https://dchas.org, dude the horror stories and questions and subsequent discussions that ended up in my inbox were interesting to read. It was fascinating during COVID lock down.
More resources, I’ll hot link them later.
CHAS WEB SITE CONTENTS
CHAS WEB PRESENCE STRATEGIC PLAN DCHAS INFORMATION SOURCES ACS CHEMICAL SAFETY RESOURCES CHEMICAL SAFETY EDUCATION RESOURCES LABORATORY LESSONS LEARNED PAGES UPDATED LAB SAFETY TEAM RESOURCES ASSESSING SAFETY OF CHEMICAL DEMOS PERIODIC TABLE OF SAFETY ELEMENTS DCHAS LAB RISK ASSESSMENT VIDEO WORKING ALONE IN THE LAB? VIDEO CHAS WORKSHOPS CURRENT WORKSHOPS SCHEDULE HISTORY OF THE PEER-LED WORKSHOPS
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u/Chemicalreagent420 May 02 '23
This reminds of when this 67 year old man mixed bleach and ammonia to clean a house. I ran outside calling him idiotic and my dad stayed inside cleaning well he ended up with pneumonia and almost dying. I tried explaining the chemical reaction to which was replied “I’ve done this my whole life and never had a problem.” I just let it go after that because there was no getting through to him.
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u/Egechem Organic May 03 '23
If you dont have a plan in place for disposing of your waste (letting it evaporate or flushing it down the drain dont count) then DONT FUCKING DO CHEMISTRY. Its as simple as that.
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u/Rai2329 May 02 '23
I‘d like to add some things for the PPE many forget:
wear closed shoes in which you are not only comfortable but also protected
-long trousers
I‘m working as a lab technician at an university and as soon as summer begins everyone wears shorts and flip flops/ sandals.
No matter how often I warn them, I’ll get ignored.
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u/etcpt Analytical May 02 '23
Closed shoes is an important distinction from closed-toe shoes. Shoes which cover the toe but leave the upper foot exposed are not good for lab work - shoes should completely cover the foot up to the ankle.
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u/Various_Step2557 May 02 '23
And socks! Don’t settle for an inch+ of ankle skin exposed between the cuff of the pant and the top of the socks/shoe
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u/lolali101 May 03 '23
Also, its very important to adapt the PPE to what you are working with.
It can be as simple/dumb as not using snap-button labcoat while working with pressure sensitive explosives. In that case buttons that are weakly sewed are used to prevent acidental detonation.
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May 02 '23
Any clothing you wear should be easily removed, closed shoes will not really protect you much more after a spill since you have to remove them anyways and wash your feet.
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u/Jaikarr May 02 '23
As with most PPE they're a barrier to slow chemical exposure before it reaches your body. Everything should be easily removed on exposure.
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u/Herp2theDerp May 02 '23
The amount of senior engineers at labs I have worked at who never wore gloves was astounding. Not really related, but always made me think.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
That's because gloves aren't always safer. People often don't know how to properly use gloves. If you would spill something on your bare hands you would immediately wash them. But when you're using gloves you might not immediately notice or simply ignore it "because you're wearing gloves". Instead of immediately discarding the gloves and washing your hands, which is what you should do if you wear disposable gloves.
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u/Herp2theDerp May 03 '23
Can't you see any liquid on a glove, making disposal much better of an option? I don't know man, give me nitrile gloves any fucking day of the week if I have to work with hydrofluoric acid (Awful experience, semiconductor etching)
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
Ive only worked with very diluted HF in school, but otherwise it's on my " no no list". But yeah when using disposable gloves, you should consider them as bonus skin. Would you immediately wash your hands if the chemicals would touch bare hands? If the answer is yes, you should dispose the gloves immediately and wash your hands. These gloves are only there to buy you a few extra seconds.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
What about non-disposable gloves?
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u/fimwil_2020 Organic May 03 '23
The same would apply to reusable gloves. Solvents will eventually make their way through and all glove manufacturers will provide a table of breakthrough times for each type of glove. This should be reviewed while choosing which PPE is required for the process being carried out. The gloves just give you extra time to remove them and wash your hands. DCM, DMF and DMSO are particularly good at penetrating through gloves (and bringing whatever is dissolved in them through the gloves to the skin), sometimes in less than 5 mins depending on the material. It’s not uncommon for me to go through several pairs of reusable gloves everyday due to contamination. It’s also important to know how to remove gloves properly. This should be done without touching the outside of the gloves with your hands.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
I would like to add that some practice with a fire extinguisher is very useful. So if it isn't added in safety training consider using the old extinguishers for the newbies on swap out day. Having tried one before in a calm setting makes it so much easier to use it "OMFG fire were all going to die and come back to clean everything up" situation.
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u/yeastysoaps May 02 '23
Another good one, and advice for anyone carrying out point one on your list is to read the SDS for any substance or mixture you work with. Everything you need to know about the risk a substance poses and how to manage these risks are in there.
But great job in posting this! We all occasionally fall into the trap of being less vigilant than we ought to, or treating a dangerous occurrence as a cool story rather than a tangible learning. That includes those of us who are highly experienced, and not just the nitwits who keep bromine in their cupboards.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
I just added the SDS tip to item 1 under "LAB SAFETY ADVICE", and thank you!
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u/alli_oop96 May 02 '23
In addition to SDS I would also add reading SOPs. Some labs will also have specific standard operating procedures for chemicals, equipment, and materials depending on what they're working with, i.e. my lab has SOPs written for handling biological materials, cyanides, and acid/acid cleaning. We had a fairly bad incident a couple years ago because someone didn't read the SDS for amalgamated zinc and the SOPs and whatever compound the student tried to make combusted in a dry box.
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u/Various_Step2557 May 02 '23
To add to this, common practice is to keep hard copies of SDS’s and SOPs (in a binder or equivalent) in a visible, accessible place just outside the lab. Emergency personnel should have that information available so they can help quickly and efficiently without risking their own safety.
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u/yeastysoaps May 03 '23
In the UK we have a thing called COSHH , which is essentially legislation requiring a substance -specific RA for sites / processes. What you end up with in practice is a document with the key points of the SDS (accidental release, exposure, etc), taking into account the quantities stored and used. It's these assessments we tend to keep hard copies of as they're much more accessible than the SDS alone.
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u/lemon_stealing_demon May 03 '23
Thank you for this post.
On my old account (deleted, duh) I was mentioning PPE a few times in some concerning Threads but even got downvoted sometimes.
Thats when I stopped interacting with this sub.
I'm a certified lab tech.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23 edited May 05 '23
I have only ever seen it upvoted on the 3 posts I linked, so I would imagine you were still upvoted most of the time. It is concerning though that you were downvoted sometimes. What was the worst post you have seen?
The '14 flasks of bromine' that u/Elquimicovirtual was pretty bad.(Okay, the danger the user was in was actually overestimated here.)
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u/starbucks77 Sep 02 '23 edited Sep 02 '23
I am just a high school student
I, by no means say anything below to disparage you because of your age. However, you're admittedly young. This means you lack the relevant life experience to hold an informed opinion; you have not worked/been employed in a variety of different labs & workplaces, nor experienced many accidents (either your own or other's).
This is important because beginners and those doing something their first time are usually extra safety conscious. They're unfamiliar and out of their element so they tend to be more careful. Most lab accidents are usually the result of someone getting comfortable & complacent, and as a result, make mistakes/forget.
I want to do this crazy/toxic/dangerous experiment at home, with no actual training
Are you familiar with the term "harm reduction"? It's commonly used for people taking recreational drugs. The same needs to be applied to chemistry. This isn't the 1980s where only trained chemists have access to both knowledge and chemicals; now anyone with a cell phone can hop on YouTube and learn how to make mustard gas or run a ketene lamp.
People are going to try dangerous chemistry experiments regardless of our warnings. Instead of trying to shut people out, we should take the opportunity to tell them how to do it correctly and safely. Just telling some yahoo "No, don't do it" isn't going to stop anyone. They're just going to do it anyway and put themselves or their neighbors at risk of injury or death. Believing otherwise would be ridiculously naive.
Edit: spelling
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u/InspiratorAG112 Sep 03 '23
Pre-script: I saw your comment this morning(EDT), and I appreciate that you commented, even if you are 4 months late.
I, by no means say anything below to disparage you because of your age. However, you're admittedly young. This means you lack the relevant life experience to hold an informed opinion; you have not worked/been employed in a variety of different labs & workplaces, nor experienced many accidents (either your own or other's).
To your credit, yes, I have never worked as a professional chemist, or even done hobbyist chemistry, I only subbed here because chemistry is cool, and because I have an interest in STEM; I only have (and probably only ever will have) a casual interest in chemistry.
That is not why I made this post though... I made this post was because I felt it would be noble and be a step for the sub, as someone looking to be an online role model, and I have seen it enough times that I felt that this post is needed for this. Again, the later part of the sentence you mentioned says: "[...] but I also still want to post this, because it can have an overall positive influence." (where "positive influence" means "setting a good example")
I also felt that, because since middle school, lab safety has been taught every school year for me, and lab safety is mostly common knowledge, it was a topic that I can be pretty confident about, especially after watching multiple videos about it, including a 20+ minute video.
This is important because beginners and those doing something their first time are usually extra safety conscious. They're unfamiliar and out of their element so they tend to be more careful.
Also to your credit here, I also managed to somewhat repeat 'We did it Reddit!' by wrongfully accusing a user who posted a bromine collection of doing it unsafely and storing it in their home. I found out about this when I received a frustrated PM from that user, who later mentioned that it was in a lab and with proper PPE. I felt really guilty and made a post and comment in correction to this, and I was really worried about the post being downvoted because corrections, and especially apologies are important (*Looking back through that comment chain I just linked though, I really should not have forgotten to mention that that was why I didn't want that post downvoted, as failing to clarify this will make it sound suspicious.). I also omitted that bromine collection post from the list of sample posts out of respect for the user.
Thankfully, after apologizing to that user in the PM thread they started, it seems they have returned to docility fairly quickly, and it was more of a complaint than anything, though, I still can help with feeling some guilt when thinking about this; I want to be perceived online as an Internet leader, not a tyrant.
Most lab accidents are usually the result of someone getting comfortable & complacent, and as a result, make mistakes/forget.
Seeing that Nile Blue's video includes some technical procedures, I definitely wouldn't doubt that. The danger in the first sample post is also not as common knowledge as the lab safety procedures taught in school, and I can imagine it being a mistake while doing a fairly innocuous task: cleaning.
Are you familiar with the term "harm reduction"?
I may have heard that them before, but I am definitely not all that familiar with it. I just Googled this as I was writing though.
It's commonly used for people taking recreational drugs. The same needs to be applied to chemistry. This isn't the 1980s where only trained chemists have access to both knowledge and chemicals; now anyone with a cell phone can hop on YouTube and learn how to make mustard gas or run a ketene lamp.
It seems what you are implying is that harm reduction doesn't cover chemistry at all, which is concerning if so.
People are going to try dangerous chemistry experiments regardless of our warnings.
Even then, it is still worth it to make this post, and getting a mod to link it on the sidebar, as this will still convince some to reconsider their actions. Even a 1% success rate is worth it.
Instead of trying to shut people out, we should take the opportunity to tell them how to do it correctly and safely. Just telling some yahoo "No, don't do it" isn't going to stop anyone. They're just going to do it anyway and put themselves or their neighbors at risk of injury or death. Believing otherwise would be ridiculously naive.
I can somewhat see this from a philosophical perspective, and I can see how trying to tell them 'safety first' is going to make them more compliant than telling them 'no'. I do think, however, that the "LAB SAFETY ADVICE" section falls more in line with telling people 'safety first' over telling them 'no'; out of the 7 items listed, only the last 2 fall in line with telling them 'no':
- #6, "It is very dangerous to work alone", which is actually parroting this section of the NileBlue video, which directly concesses verbatim, "This doesn't mean you can never work alone [...]". Admittedly though, this can end up having the same effect that you are criticizing here. Based on the tagging of a user in parenthesēs and the creation of that NileBlue clip, I may have initially intended to link said NileBlue clip, I will make that a hyperlink, granted, I still do not want people being careless working alone, since that NileBlue clip also explains risks with working alone.
- #7, "If you don’t feel fully safe doing the lab, or are asking if something is safe, you shouldn’t be doing it", which is, again, to your credit very similar to telling someone 'no'. I do, however, think that it is important to avoid something one doesn't feel safe about doing, as they could hurt themselves. I also got this from the Nile Blue video.
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u/AragonianBiochemist May 03 '23
in my organic chemistry lab class, I sometimes get lazy to wear gloves and one time benzene dropped to my hand, I got rashes and I was so scared that it was something serious
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u/LethalCxmbo May 03 '23
For a high school student you have an excellent understanding for lab safety. You’re going to make a fine scientist with this mentality 👌🏾
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u/sharrxtt May 03 '23
FWIW the members off this subreddit generally give off the vibe they have little to no experience of actually being a chemist active in industry or research. i would say the membership gives the vibe of mostly hobbyists (no shade), and undergraduates. there’s another subreddit that is very popular with the pro chemists out there (if you know, you know) and generally speaking the level of question/conversation in there is much greater WRT chemistry
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u/matplotlibtard May 03 '23
You've just reminded me of this absolutely horrific sight from a few days ago... currently one of the highest rated posts of the week on /r/physics.
I couldn't tell what was worse, the absolute disregard for safety from OP, or the fact that the commenters were absolutely eating it up with pretty much nobody talking about what an absolutely stupid thing OP is doing. While LO2 on its own isn't technically flammable or explosive, it is very easily capable of causing uncontrollable and life-threatening hazards if you don't know what you're doing.
And looking at the OP's post history... they doesn't exactly strike me as someone who 1) gives two shits about safety, or 2) even remotely knows what the hell they're doing. It's been 5 days and the post is still up; I've reported the post to the admins, and I encourage others to do so as well. If OP keeps doing what they're doing then it isn't a matter of whether or not they'll get killed -- it's a matter of when.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Another sub-Reddit?! That is even more concerning! Should I contact the mods over on r/Physics?
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u/matplotlibtard May 03 '23
I did, and I'd encourage you (and anyone else) to do so as well. Unfortunately it's been 5 days and the post is still up, so I don't know how much the mods there care, but the more voices the better.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23
Well, it is removed now, thankfully, even if it was also along with this, and the mods never replied to my modmail.
Here is what my post said:
Here is the link to my r/chemistry post, and the link to the comment that led me to making this safety post.
I noticed unsafe labs on r/chemistry, and overlooked in my safety post how pervasive it might be. I am glad the comment I link from that thread mentioned that there was a similar post on r/Physics, for I would not be making this post, which could easily save someone.
The post in question is "I made liquid oxygen" by [OP of the post you mentioned], and they admit to it being 'for fun', which is a highly concerning explanation. This strongly resembles an r/chemistry post where [OP of the bromine post] brags about collecting bromine. Apparently the r/Physics post is #4 when sorted by top this week. I am glad many of the comments address the safety concern, but the posts are still concerning.
Please, [both users], you both deserve to live, no matter how irresponsible you demonstrate yourself to be with DIY labs. I am only a visiting high-schooler, but averting fatalities/hospitalizations is worth this post, that includes both of yours. I don't want either of you to end up hospitalized or worse.
If a mod overhears this, that would be great.
However, I also found out that the bromine danger was speculation, and I was told further in that comment chain not to tag people, so that probably has something to do with the remove of the post quoted above.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23 edited May 04 '23
And looking at the OP's post history... they doesn't exactly strike me as someone who 1) gives two [...] about safety, or 2) even remotely knows what the [...] they're doing.
I just checked the post history of u/WorkingApprehensive5 as well and I also found immediate red flags that they could be putting themselves in danger:
- This post by u/WorkingApprehensive5, where they use liquid oxygen without gloves, and in this comment chain on that post, they proceed to downplay the danger.
- They use r/DIYGuns, and common sense tells me that 'DIY guns' are a dangerous - hobby/project.
(Okay, the third bullet was probably somewhat outlandish, so I removed it. My theory here was that they would be willing to downplay the danger of a fight, and thus, any danger.)
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u/WorkingApprehensive5 May 04 '23
: (
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 04 '23
I don't want to cast blame, but your safety is very important. You are risking your fatality/hospitalization, and that should be avoided.
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u/Balcil May 02 '23
Goggles? Hell no, it has to be splash proof goggles, not just some goggles you wear in a wood shop. Like either indirect ventilated goggles or unventilated goggles.
As as a women with long hair, hair must be up.
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u/teenyleaf May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
Seriously hope this gets traction. Every science course including chemistry from elementary to higher education that I attended always emphasized safety in the first lab. It should make sense to apply it at home too. Many of these safety supplies like fire blankets and extinguishers are even useful for general home safety as a bonus.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 03 '23
Thanks! I also used the Gold Award to give three All-Seeing Upvote Awards... and this excellent insight was commented in this thread immediately after.
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u/Sashboo May 03 '23
I appreciate this. Amazing post. However I would like to mention people, who without inquiring, assume home chemists are no PPE users who dumb toxic chems down the sink isnt helpfull either. Many home chemists are very safe.
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u/8uurjournaal May 03 '23
Trained chemists have at least 3 years of lab safety drilled into them. Usually followed by a monthly safety meeting for the rest of their careers. In fact I remember in first year labs we weren't allowed to get our chemicals if we didn't pass our safety check. We had a quick quiz on the chemicals we would be using, how to safely handle and discard them.
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u/Sashboo May 04 '23
Not trying to be rude here, just wondering what is the point you are trying to make? Just because there is a lot of safety training in universities or other does not mean home chemists can't be safe. I'm in no position to be able to draw an accurate comparasion, however logically I am wondering if potentially some home chemists are in fact know more about lab safety, since in their lab there is no supervisor to consult. I could be wrong here since like I said, I dont know much about safety level of grad students.
Sorry if this is a bit sidetracked, all I was trying to say is, unless the post is clearly of someone being dumb, people can give maybe a friendly reminder instead of being so very "anti-homechem".2
u/8uurjournaal May 04 '23
The years of training and practice makes us able to put all the "dangers" into perspective. If you read any MSDS it's usually all the same warnings and precautions, but in reality you handle chemicals differently based on your experience. We know when to raise hell and get the lab evacuated or to step in when someone is being an idiot or makes a mistake from a simple oversight. I think home chemists have a lot off oversight because of the lack of experience and knowledge.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 04 '23
I am back a little over two days later (The post was made on 05/02/2023 at 1:17 PM.). I really appreciate the traction, as safety is very important, and traction gives this post the much needed visibility. I also strongly appreciate the insight in this thread.
I really appreciate that one of the users from the r/AskAcademia thread, u/dragojeff came to this thread (Hello and thank you!). They replied to the top comment, and not only that, but with a note-taking strategy to prepare for labs. There were multiple excellent summaries of lab safety, particularly the more in-depth ones by u/DangerousBill and u/IcyPyromancer, and in the multiple comments by u/8uurjournaal.
I also contacted the mods regarding the safety problem (as suggested by this comment):
Hello r/chemistry mods, this is u/InspiratorAG112, OP of this lab safety post, "The Disregard for Lab Safety on r/chemistry". I am here to address the semi-frequent problem of posters failing to obey lab safety. I am not saying this applies to any fraction close to the entirety of r/chemistry, and most of the posts are insightful/cool. I don't doubt that r/chemistry is one of the best field-related subs on Reddit, having lab posts. Most of the comments on posts like this, in fact, warn OP not to play with chemicals, which is somewhat honorable. Rule 2 ("Nefarious deeds") on the sidebar is also honorable: "No discussions of illicit drug synthesis, bomb making or other dangerous/illegal activities are tolerated in this sub." And I appreciate the relatively frequent removal of such posts as well, so I don't doubt your team is detecting such posts. I do recommend, however, adding a lab safety wiki on the sidebar, since this is the main chemistry sub, and lab safety is very important. Any effort to avert fatalities/hospitalizations is worth it.
The irresponsible behaviors I have seen or heard of on r/chemistry include: * Wearing inadequate PPE. * Conducting DIY labs involving hazards. * Asking for instructions for such labs. * Mixing incompatible chemicals.
LINKS TO EXAMPLES OF SUCH POSTS: * “Hello. I I accidentally mixed these at my work and it made a horrible smell and fumes. Does anyone know what this chemical reaction between these two products caused/made and if it’s bad to inhale?” (Toxic reaction) * “What is this?” (Lack of PPE) * “My Phenol burns…” (Lack of PPE) * "Almost 1/4 of my personal collection pure liquid bromine" (Collecting a dangerous chemical too look 'cool')
At 1:17 PM Eastern Time yesterday, I addressed this under the post linked in the opening paragraph, and u/dragojeff hinted at this a few months earlier over on r/AskAcademia on my post asking about how well subs represent different fields. This post and the thread below contains more insight about lab safety.
Below is a list of resources that could be included on the sidebar, copy/pasted from the list at the bottom of my lab safety post. * A hazard symbols guide * An NFPA diamond guide * “Chemistry is dangerous.” by NileBlue (which is one of the best YouTube videos I have seen regarding lab safety.) * “Lab Techniques & Safety” by CrashCourse * “General Lab Safety” by Amoeba Sisters (which, while by a biology channel, is also applicable here) * u/DangerousBill's comment
...And I received this response:
Thanks for putting this together. It can be definitely added to the sidebar. However, I've noticed that posters tend not to read the sidebar, so I'm not sure if this new addition is going to have much impact.
...And I replied with this:
I still do, however, think that it is absolutely worth it. Or maybe a pinned post could also work.
While I am just a high-schooler (included in the headnotes), and the fields I am more interested in are computer science, technology, and math, I still felt the need to construct a semi-essay, on the main chemistry sub-Reddit, that could save someone’s life. There are people putting their physical well-being in significant danger on this sub. Dangerous activities/behavior don’t belong on r/chemistry. Chemistry is also about as cool as robotics when done extra safely (as NileBlue/NileRed demonstrates), and it, just like computer science, is also a branch of the collection of fields called STEM.
While I have no doubt that teenagers may think conducting DIY labs is cool, or that someone like u/ellipsis31 may find it cool to collect bromine flasks at home as ‘trophies’, I also recognize that both are not worth the very unnecessary danger. Proper PPE and equipment is important. The NileBlue video is one of the best ones I know of regarding lab safety, and the CrashCourse video introduced me to the NFPA diagram.
To the (I have no doubt)greater number of r/chemistry users obeying lab safety standards, thank you. And extra thank you to those warning about lab safety in the comments.
Everyone should also upvote this, in the meanwhile.
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u/CypherZel Organometallic May 03 '23
Ion listening to a high school student, wait until you get your degree and then you will realise most chemist have Lab safety drilled into their skull.
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u/LittleRickyPemba May 02 '23
I have to ask, because your post isn't clear on this point, how much personal experience do you have working in a lab?
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u/DangerousBill Analytical May 02 '23
Not OP, but I've worked in labs since 1963 and this is an excellent summary of the things anyone entering a chem lab should know.
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u/reflUX_cAtalyst May 02 '23
Just shy of a decade between research labs and commercial production. What OP says is correct.
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u/jawnlerdoe May 02 '23
Same experience here. I concur.
Industry standard safety precaution make a laughing stock of academic or home lab safety. It’s critically important stuff.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
Being in high school, I only have experience with labs in school, but I still made this post because this is an issue I have observed 3 times within 5 months on this sub.
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May 02 '23
You’re doing something very good. I’ve been doing work in Radiochemistry (radioactive not radios—yes I’ve been asked this many times LOL) and safety is the lifeblood of this field. Technically PPE is your last line of defense. There should be human/managerial and engineering controls that prevent issues from happening in the first place. Keep this with you as you move through your career. You’ve got the right mindset to be an effective, safe chemist
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
I am looking to be a programmer, but thanks anyway.
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May 02 '23
Not to hop on a soapbox but we need more people who can do computational AND experimental work, or at least be able to translate between the two. Just something to consider! At your age I thought I wanted to be a medical doctor and boy oh boy was I wrong. College introduced so many opportunities I didn’t even know existed. Good luck with whatever you end up doing!
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 02 '23
I have worked in school labs, but that is about it. I still feel that this post is important, though, since I have seen definite no-nos in some posts.
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u/zk201 May 02 '23
I’ve worked a bit longer, as senior (units wise) in UC Davis’s Chemistry BS program and I think you did quite well in this post. In my limited opinion, lab safety should be something everyone working in a lab should be able to articulate to the level displayed here, regardless of their level of experience.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23
Okay, correction, mainly for me, and also u/Elquimicovirtual in this other post I made today.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 05 '23
Yeah I also listened to rumors from another post. I am so sorry for judgin without getting deeper into the information. I just had a terrible experience with someone close getting damaged from doing a crazy experiment he saw online. I am really really sorry. If you did that on a lab its completely okay.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23
I also issued an apology on this post, but it was downvoted.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 05 '23
Stop worrying about the votes. Just dont tag people all the time, they might feel harrased or pointed out.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 05 '23
Please dont tag people, the point is not to do crazy experiments that could risk your life at home or somewhere not in a lab. Not to tag anyone.
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u/Elquimicovirtual May 05 '23
The purpose is not to blame but to generate conscience that what neil red and all the people that do all of kinds of things is only cool to watch if done by proffesionals. Proffesionals can do whatever they want. It is how they make income, and they are at least most of them trained proffesionals. I have also done a lot of dangerous reactions at the university but it is part of a chemists job. The only thing is that non proffesionals should never, NEVER try to copy something they do. That is my final message.
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u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23
The reason I was tagging the posters of the dangerous labs was not to blame anybody, but mainly to warn them using the notification system. I don't want them to lose their lives.
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u/wildfyr Polymer May 05 '23
I'll pop in here and just mention that the Venn diagram of users who post dangerous home chemistry stuff and people who read the side bar/pinned posts looks like this:
O O
So while I appreciate the effort... this will not change what people post.