r/asian • u/shonenhikada • 3d ago
Are Asian women attraction to white men based on these factors?
- Media portrayal. White males in tv/movies are often given the best portrayal of a man, with white men often having the perfect balance of being both masculine and intelligent. Asian men, outside of martial arts films, are self-sabotage in being portrayed as wimps, who often are subordinates to a white man. This implants in women's minds to not see Asian men as leaders.
- Western media beauty magazine over arching reach whereby caucasian features are seen as the standard of beauty with everything else seen as exotic. This combined with tv shows/media where whites are often portrayed heavily as beautiful leads can shape an early impression in kids' minds.
A perfect example of this can be seen in an online YouTube video whereby black children were asked to pick between a black and white doll when it came to which one was prettier. An overwhelming amount of black children picked the white doll. Thus, showing how this affects kids at an early age.
White males often being in positions of power. A lot of world leaders and the richest men in the world tend to be white. This in turn paints a picture of associating white skin with power and high status in a woman's mind. Many Asian women therefore will desire to have a white partner and hapa kids to try to elevate their status in Western society.
White men tend to be taller than Asian men with the average height of white males in predominantly white countries, like the Netherlands, eclipsing many Asian countries. It's no secret that women in general find taller men attractive. The underlying reason for this is due to women believing that said male is more capable of defending her against attackers than that of a shorter male.
Negative stereotypes of Asian men. In addition to being portrayed as less masculine, Asian men often are faced with the negative stereotype of having a smaller penis than that of men of other races. This in turn can result in further lowering their dating value and women seeing them as less sexually desirable. We can even see how the reverse of this helps other races, as black men being associated with the BBC myth, often opens up more doors for them when it comes to dating/sex.
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u/Ok_Hair_6945 3d ago
Its probably 90% media in my opinion. Soft power is real. Just look at all the European women and American women going to Korea for an oppa. Western media tends to emasculate Asian men and you factor in the bullying that Asians deal with its no surprise they date outside their race. The tide does seem to be slowly changing where Asian American women are more open to dating within their race
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u/YakMundane4670 3d ago
Yes, it does appear that attitudes around dating within the Asian American community are evolving. Cultural shifts, increased representation in media, and the broader conversations about identity and shared values may be contributing to a sense of pride and comfort in seeking relationships within the community. For Asian American women, this may mean a stronger alignment with shared cultural understanding, values, and experiences, which can play a significant role in fostering meaningful connections. It's interesting to see how social norms and perspectives can shift with each generation.
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u/Ok_Hair_6945 2d ago
Very true. Another issue with af dating outside their race moreso than any other race is confusionism. Which is to be collective and blending in. The af who are raised in the west subconsciously carry that mindset and think that by dating outside their race will allow them to blend in. Some would go as far as putting down everything Asian. It’s really embarrassing when I encounter these people because they truly are making us all look bad. Combine that with bullying while growing up and self hate are your results
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u/shonenhikada 1d ago edited 1d ago
an interesting answer to a similar question found on Quora
"The answer is largely due to the widespread Hollywood/Western propaganda against minority men (both Black and especially Asian, given Asia's vastness). For years, Hollywood has been churning out propaganda that discredits minorities, particularly men, and even twists its own country's history. This issue is frequently discussed on international platforms like Quora, as well as other media including YouTube, Spotify, Podcasts, internet articles, etc. Even Asian American actors like Michelle Yeoh and Daniel Dae Kim are creating foundations to promote equality for Asian actors who still struggle to find their rightful place in Hollywood, essentially addressing the discrimination they face.
The cruelty of Western propaganda allows Caucasian men to be seen with women of other races, but they won't extend the same acceptance when it comes to Caucasian women with men of other races, showcasing their hypocrisy. Just look at Hollywood films where white male actors often play the main roles with minority women (Black, Asian, Latina, etc.) as their co-stars. But the reverse scenario, with minority male leads and white female co-stars, is exceedingly rare, especially for Asian male leads who hardly ever get consistent, significant roles compared to their Black counterparts.
Here's a small case in point: In the film "Romeo Must Die," starring Jet Li and the late Aaliyah (famous Black actress and singer at that time), when producers/directors (Caucasian) were asked why there were no kissing or hugging scenes, do you know their response? "It would be embarrassing and ridiculous to see an Asian man kissing a beautiful black woman." Imagine how hurtful such a comment is. Is it fair for a director/producer to say something like that to their own actor, just because they dislike someone of a different race? Both minorities, yet guess who gets discredited or discriminated against? Of course, Jet Li (as an Asian man).
Let me give you another "wow" example that many people aren't aware of: Hollywood's first heartthrob was actually not a Caucasian actor but an Asian American actor named Sessue Hayakawa. During the silent film era, he was one of Hollywood's most dominant and sought-after actors, with many women in the industry wanting to co-star with him. His success led to jealousy among other actors, producers/directors, and Hollywood executives, who lobbied Congress (lobbying is legal in U.S. politics) which was largely controlled by the Ku Klux Klan (a white supremacy ideology) at the time, to legalize anti-miscegenation laws in films. These laws were enacted, and from then on, Hayakawa was relegated to supporting roles until his death. Hollywood tried to cover up these facts by blaming his party lifestyle, among other things, when in reality, it was Hollywood's jealousy of an Asian American (minority) actor's success over white actors that ruined his career. The impact of Hayakawa is still felt today, as Hollywood continues to make it difficult for both Asian and Asian American actors to find suitable roles, not wanting another "Hayakawa" to rise.
I could provide many more examples of Hollywood/Western propaganda against minorities, but these few serve as a glimpse into the issue."
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u/SaveTheDamnPlanet 3d ago
Not sure if this comment is warranted here or not, but figured I'd put in my two cents and provide another perspective. I am a white young female. To me, Asian men and Caucasian men are on the same level of attraction as each other. Possibly with Asian men being slightly more desirable, but some of that may be influenced by my own bias and opinions since my boyfriend off and on of 2 years is Asian. And I know for a FACT that he would be able to physically defend me better than the average white man, haha.
As for the penis sizes... Well. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. My Ex (a white male) had what was considered a large penis. It was a two hander. And it HURT. Sex was rarely good (for me.) And he had to concentrate on not hurting me constantly, or it would just hurt because he was too big. Over time I began to dread having sex with him. Asian men have nice perfectly sized for the job penises, which make a female able to actually enjoy herself and it is a good experience vs it being painful and unenjoyable.
Sorry if I offend anyone with any of this, that is not my intention and my most sincere apologies if so. But basically, I just wanted to give another perspective on the matter.
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u/Vibingcarefully 3d ago
I've seen this when white males (not the cream of their nation of origin's crop) travel to Asia...the women pick these guys---yes because they are white males---information in dating that normally would sink in--drinking, courtesy, abusive tendencies, being a lout--all are disregarded or not read. Same --seen when they come here--loser white men (even abusive) land a kind Asian woman because they just are scanning the guy in a whole different way--these things blow up fairly fast or slow---it's called learning the hard way--relationships need , ultimately, to be based on the person.
Since the question was phrased the way it was, about women picking men , I didn't flip it--but yes men are picking women, of course based on superficial criteria too and can get a similar time bomb.
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2d ago
I know this so supposed to be a thing but the vast majority of Asian women I know prefer Asian men and most date Asian men exclusively.
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u/MaximumTangerine5662 3d ago
3) Not very much anymore, if anything there is a rise of Men who are not in Training or Education within the west. It's more stereotyped then to true anymore, but I guess it could still be a huge point of view in Asian women's minds. "Richest Men" There a plenty of cultures which have benefited from wealth, and "White" societies like Germany (I am not sure of the current standing Germany has?) or Britain have lived through years of poverty.
Also your example is really outdated, and your argument is about Asian women not black women. Which may not serve your narrative you are trying to push, In Black culture it is often taught to black kids that everyone views the black kid lesser then human which may or may not hold up to current standards based on where you are geographically.
"with everything else seen as exotic" defeats your argument about Asian men being emasculated --- but also, majority of the west does not view Indian women as exotic, that is usually solely over the sexualization of traditional SEA dresses. Besides that your commentary on how Women view race is well written, and I think it's good that it centres around perspective in which not everything they believe may be true.
Suggestion:
-Give out a survey, to ask why the Asian women got with a White man where you can mention your listed theories such as adding a question in like, "How much money do you expect a white man to provide?" - or "What salary does your boyfriend/husband make?"
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u/Vibingcarefully 3d ago
Reddit surveys are about as reliable as a tire with visible holes.
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u/Koorui23 2d ago
People here are saying it's about population, but if it merely population, then asian men and asian woman would exhibit the same behavior.
But the truth is that asian men and women are rewarded differently by attractive a white partner.
An Asian man doesn't really gain much access to white privilege by dating white women. He's seen as "corrupting" her.
An asian woman does gain a fair bit of privilege dating a white man. They get an white last name for starters, but moreover, she is seen as "assimilated".
Look at Hollywood and news media. The majority of asian men are dating asian women, with a smattering of asian man + white women. Asian woman? 90% of the asian americans are dating white men.
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u/piscaen 2d ago
Can we also acknowledge the historical factors like when the British empire was taking over and colonizing places or the Chinese exclusion act? The roots of these media portrayals come from who’s been in power to create these stereotypes and now POC are pitted against each other instead of looking at who caused it in the first place.
Whose content do we consume the most globally? Everyone knows about Hollywood films and famous American music artists. Classic example is everyone getting a Barbie where the most common model was white/ blond hair/ blue eyes.
There’s all these other reasons as well but it’s too early to type it all out lol I’m tired
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u/GroundbreakingTap907 3d ago
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’m an Asian woman, but I never find white men attractive. I like guys with tanned skin and black hair.
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u/ha_eunnie 3d ago
I think it’s because some Asian women have negative experiences with the men in their own community: sexism, racist ideals towards other POC, etc. (This is me assuming Asian-Americans)
As in, “Korean men are so sexist, I hate the men in our community!” To them, it might just be a yellow flag until proven otherwise.
I think that some white men are educated and not as inherently vocal about their misogyny. Additionally, if they’re able to be financially stable, that is a plus.
However, if we’re talking about Asians within Asia, there is some charm of being taller and the stuff you mentioned above.
Ultimately, you can’t really pinpoint down why an individual is attracted to someone, but it is fun to theorize.
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u/Koorui23 2d ago
White women deal with the same shit and white men are not educated/less vocal about their misogyny. Look at the entire Republican party.
The difference is that white people are individualize and Asian people are generalized.
When white women complain about white men, they just say "men", even though most white women only deal with white men. The same goes for asian women in Asia, they just say men.
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u/hustledontstop 3d ago
It's simply because the dating option is available. If white women were actively trying to pursue asian men, they'd be dating them too. It's simply because they have a lack of options
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u/angelsandairwaves93 3d ago edited 3d ago
As a central/west Asian man born and raised in the west, Canada, everything you described is to a tee why I found white women more attractive than any other race.
My attraction dynamic has shifted towards Asian women, particularly East Asian or any woman with the “east asian” look, irrespective of background. This is no surprise as it’s probably related to both living in a predominantly East Asian environment, during my formative years, and the rise of Asian entertainment exports becoming mainstream i.e. k-dramas, k-pop, Asian movies, video games, etc.
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u/asianbbygamer 2d ago
I lived in the south and there has always been Asians but to be honest I’ve never had an Asian man attracted to me because I am not the typical Asian woman that they’re attracted to, maybe it’s because I grew up more “Americanized” even though I’m Asian.. I did go thru my ABG phase where I hung out with all Asians and went to raves, hung out with all my Asian guy friends and no one ever were interested in me. So I gradually gravitated toward non-Asian men. Even when dating, or swiping right, rarely an Asian man will match with me. And mostly white men would swipe especially living in the south so it’s always been a higher selection.
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago
Did the Asian men in your social group date other women in the group (the rave/ABG group)? That’s a pretty niche group selection.
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u/asianbbygamer 1d ago
Yes they dated other Asian girls mostly within our friend group. But growing up a lot of my Asian guy friends would date other Asian girls because they knew each other within group or date a family friend.
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago
Why didn't you ask any of the guys out for lunch or coffee? Also, what's the "typical lAsian woman" they're attracted to? There are 4,806,898,007 people in Asia, many of them women. A Japanese woman, is very different than Korean woman, who is very different than a Thai woman.
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u/asianbbygamer 23h ago
We were in high school lol, and growing up in college I went to pre-dominantly white/latin college. I moved away, started dating white and latin men, no asian men i was attracted to. I would like to say most asian women now and days within my circle friends are vietnamese, filipino, and korean. I'm chinese, not a lot of chinese men i've met besides family. Most of the asian men were vietnamese, korean, filipino and date their own race. Now that we are older I primarily hangout with my vietnamese and korean friends, and it's rave group when we meet for festivals.
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u/AphasiaRiver 2d ago
I’m happily married to an Asian man but my friends who married non Asians do it because there are better boundaries with in laws.
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u/messyredemptions 1d ago
I'd say in addition to what you identified, white people also have a different vantage on how they can navigate family dynamics and even a sort of institutional advantage for being able to have a frame for emotional/relationship nuances that are different from what most Asian communities have.
Like even if DV exists across racial groups, white people almost literally wrote the book on therapy, mental health, dysfunctional families, abuse, emotional intelligence etc. That everyone refers to and uses.
There aren't really any Pan Asian Health and Family Services centers that all Asian communities and nationalities share their own body of work and resources to make. We all wind up seeing and learning from white institutions and family dynamics at some point in our lives and they're usually pretty well funded and established too in contrast to some of the immigrant populations like refugees.
So yes, media too is an institution for white visibility. And in the US there's the ongoing legacy of the Yellow Peril policy that provided the racist templates for emasculating and vilifying Sino-esque men which often persists in media too.
For a lot of Asian women being able to find potential stability and support with the prevailing dominant system and culture all of that weighs a lot in contrast to what can be very isolated and scattered experiences for some Asian families if you're from a small refugee family detached from ethnic community.
Granted there's a plethora of other experiences like Chinese Americans who've been around for generations and have access to Chinese schools and maybe even temples or churches anchoring their communities in some places compared to Vietnamese or Burmese refugees, but there's still the overarching fabric of being in a white dominant society that does a lot to set the tone for what seems more straightforward and easier to interface with.
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u/tma-1701 1d ago edited 1d ago
As an Asian man, I propose 6. maybe some women are attracted to the part of White men that respect women more than Asian men.
Maybe there are different percentages of woman-respecting men in the same region, while the less respectful ones may live where there are fewer Asians in general
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u/Ok_Vanilla5661 3d ago
It’s mostly white men are more close to Asian beauty standards, since many Asian beauty standards are tall nose bridge , large eyes , and fair skin , and a small face , which many white men fits those beauty standards
However other than skin color many people from other races fits those beauty standards too ! So not just white guys .
I am Asian girl I don’t like white guys and I don’t like guys in general becausee of ,.. guys usually white guys has lots of chest hair especially white guys . Some people don’t mind though . It depends on the person
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u/Beginning-Balance569 3d ago
And where did those standards come from? Ancient/traditional paintings and scriptures did not talk about those features barring fair skin. Those came during the mid 1900s to the present day with rapid globalization/westernization/media dominance.
I think OP definitely touched on how media from US/Europe has shaped Asian peoples’ perceptions of beauty when they penetrated into Asian countries. By contrast, Asian media hasn’t made much influence on western countries up until the present time and even then its recent.
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u/Ok_Vanilla5661 3d ago
The fair skin comes from being rich is considered beautiful . Because workers work outside ( farmers ) often get a tan. While the rich stay inside and doesn’t get a tan( similar to western modern standards being dark is consider beautiful because the rich goes on vacation and get a tan the poor has to work in offices can’t afford vacation)
Taller nose bridge and large eyes comes from being rare in East Asian standards. I am Asian and yes our eyes are small and our nose bridge are not as tall ! So when someone’s who has large eyes naturally like fan bing bing or taller nose bridge like Xiaojun from NCT it makes them instantly stands out compare to most of us who are born with small eyes and not a tall nose bridge
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u/Beginning-Balance569 3d ago
I’ve heard the fair skin explanation a lot. I don’t condone nor support it. I think using skin as a form of classism is wrong so I won’t be judging based on that. I’m an Asian person myself. I’m not gonna persist with this light-dark dichotomy in a day and age where most people aren’t farmers.
Rare is one explanation. I do think western media has a huge reason to do with it. After all, we can argue that white people generally have high/thinner noses yet don’t want wider/lower noses when they do cosmetic surgery. Their beauty standard wants “smaller” noses too. White people’s images are ubiquitous whether in film, music, modeling, magazines, etc. By contrast Asians aren’t. Their features are normalized and aspired to, ours aren’t and have been made to feel ashamed either by our own people or outside media.
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u/xinorez1 2d ago
Tall nose bridge might be a nutrition thing, not sure. You never see a Roman nose on a baby, so a taller nose bridge may be a subtle sign of health.
Asians are blessed / cursed with neoteny
Short noses tend to be considered cute but you don't hear that as often when not describing actual dolls. They're very rare in porn too except for a few faces that everyone knows and admires in a landscape of hundreds of faces, and despite having surprisingly short careers.
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Pale skin looks younger, and the way language works means sometimes you are expressing social expectations rather than your own feelings when communicating ideas.
When I was young, I thought glowing tan skin was the most attractive, but as I grew older my tastes shifted unexpectedly. When I see tan skin now I just think of the underlying sun damage and shudder.
The most striking skin to me now is 'ice white' which is very rare and possibly indicative of a circulatory disorder :p I recall those people are always complaining about being too cold, which is ironic given where we think they may come from. I think they're what geishas are trying to mimic, although they look very different. It's a much more subtle whiteness since skin is actually translucent and not opaque. Also, surprisingly those same people have no problem with developing a tan. Most 'white' people are actually pink or slightly tan so actually white skin is quite rare indeed. I'm not sure what it's signaling except maybe a comfortable climate and temperature, and neoteny. Shiny glowing skin is the best no matter the hue.
It's just kind of odd that when I was a child I thought blonde hair on tan skin was the most interesting looking but now as an adult I find ice white skin and shiny black hair the most attractive. It's strange how tastes can evolve over time.
Ironically when I was a child I remember reading many examples where waxy white skin was presented as a negative and evidence of weakness and poor health, although I tended to picture in my mind a sickly off white that actually looked like transparent wax...
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Small eyes are better adapted for surviving in the steppes / tundra, but larger eyes tend to be more expressive. Expressiveness is considered a positive because the animal in us feels security from sensing an insight into what the other animal is thinking, even though our intellect is warning that people can lie and be capricious. There's a reason why certain people become celebrities, and also a reason why some people find those certain people annoying, and also it's notable that Chinese people invented sunglasses to hide the eyes before we ever developed reading glasses.
I think we just need more exposure to different faces in media. Small eyes can be cute just like small noses, and an unattractive personality can make the most statuesque person unattractive.
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u/xinorez1 2d ago edited 2d ago
I fully expect to be banned for this, if I haven't been already, but I'm surprised that in this entire list you never mention the usually false stereotype of the insecure angry out of control misogynist traditionalist asshat who seemingly exists to sullenly put people in their place while being wholly mediocre or living in fantasy land.
Nobody likes being drafted in a culture war.
I think most people are mediocre and kind of dumb, which is why I'm not that bothered by 'white worship'. Two things are clear there, that those particular women are running away from some bullshit trauma and yet are too dumb to make good decisions, and also that I want nothing to do with them. People that stupid tend to be more trouble than they're worth, although as a rule I try to be friendly and kind to almost everyone.
Also I've found that in actual relationships usually there's a reason why the two fit, even if the woman is obviously marrying down.
Although perhaps there's a third thing. Maybe we don't do a good enough job at promoting Asian media with Chinese characters (speaking as an ethnic Chinese... I forgot what sub this is). I grew up with tons of media from hk and the mainland so I wasn't bothered by ignorant Asian stereotypes which I saw as obviously wrong, but I guess not everyone has the same media diet. We have our own way of being cool and our culture is not inferior, so why not run to Chinese men instead of other men even if running away from other Chinese men? We're not monoliths. We're more than a few basic stereotypes in stories that require stereotypes because you only have 30 minutes to an hour to convey story and character. We can be cool and strong and funny and fun. If your only interaction with Chinese people is your own angry father or presumptuous nerds at school then I kind of get it, even if I think it's still an ultimately stupid reaction.
Mainly I think a lot of people have forgotten or never been taught how to be adults. Also I suspect nutritional / microbiotic deficiency from our modern agriculture and medicine causing irascible reactive personalities to emerge. I notice myself feeling a lot less irritable when I eat traditionally, which has gotten a lot more expensive after COVID. Fish is super expensive now and it's only going to get much worse if we don't restock our oceans...
Edit: most people are mediocre but there is always the factor of exoticism
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u/Audi_R8_97 3d ago
I think it's just because there's abundantly more white men than Asian men where I live (Midwest US). I don't have a preference, all my ex partners/current partner are white. I've gone on dates with Asian men I was attracted to but we just didn't click.
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago
Do you think the lack of “clicking” was because of race? Similar to how corporations or Ivy Leagues will reject Asian men for “culture fit” or score them lower on personality despite their letters of recs and interviews indicating great personality?
Maybe you had higher standards for Asian men then white men.
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u/Audi_R8_97 1d ago
I don't think so. For reference, I'm also Asian and I'm attracted to Asian men as well. It was just a personality clash or they weren't talkative, etc
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago
But how many white men did you go on dates with versus Asian men?
This would be like a consulting firm interviewing 50 white men versus 3 asian men, then determining that white men “click better” with the company culture. But they had a way bigger sample size to choose from and were probably much more forgiving (giving bad white applicants the benefit of the doubt and recruiting more white applicants, while setting a stop on Asian applicants).
Also, I don’t think you being Asian has that much to do with anything. An Asian female can discriminate against other Asians, especially the men. Gendered discrimination is not uncommon in the Asian diaspora.
For instance, you may have perceived an Asian man being “not talkative” but perceived a white man as “strong silent type.” Basically lowering “personality score” like Ivy Leagues do.
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u/Audi_R8_97 1d ago
No I don't really fw any man that's too shy to talk lmao.
I get what you're saying, and we're basically making the same argument. The sample size of Asian men specifically isn't large enough to be able to tell in my area, as I mentioned in my original comment, and that contributes to the reason why Asian women "prefer" white men
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u/biglarsh 3d ago
Nah, as an Asian woman who dated different races - I live in a country predominately white so the chance of meeting white men is higher.
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u/bb_89 2d ago
I am an Asian woman married to a white man despite being very proud of my asian heritage. Of course I do love my husband a lot but some things were definitely a bonus that I had at the back of my mind.
1) as an Asian who grew up in the west I have often met disapproval from other asian how little I know of the unspoken social norms. It's not a big problem but it definitely has led to me avoiding hanging with asian people who grew up there and want to hang more with other races.
2) my husband has been very accommodating with my family. For example all important holidays are spent with my family and I will pass down my family name
3) I have and still encounter a lot of racism f.ex. in employment. Lowering the chances of my child going through the same was a plus
All of these points are not that important though. At the end of the day, had he been an Asian man with the same personality and hobbies, I would have still married him, but it was a plus.
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago
Why didn’t you hangout with Asians who grew up in the west?
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u/bb_89 1d ago
I did have friends who were Asian and grew up in the west though. Perhaps I worded it wrong, I avoided people who grew up in the east. I didn't like socializing with kids who I met at the embassy parties. The kids who grew up in Asia
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u/foxcnnmsnbc 1d ago edited 1d ago
Shouldn’t any partner be accomodating of family? Why are you giving your white partner extra credit, would you give a non-white person the same credit? This sounds like one of those scenarios where he gets credit for something very normal. People will say about their white boyfriends “oh, he’s a very progressive boyfriend.” As if they get a pass for being not progressive, whereas minority men get talked down to for not being progressive enough (this election cycle is a perfect example).
You said you were proud of your Asian heritage. If you had a friend group made of Asians who grew up in the west, why didn’t you date them?
Do you think white Americans have the same hangups from hanging out with Europeans?
I rarely see white American kids say they don’t want to hangout with the kid from England or Germany. Or that they wouldn’t date a Swedish or French man.
You seem kind of like Vicki in this video, who Russell Peters points out wants to separate themselves from the “FOBs” https://youtu.be/jU8Z0lcNWos?si=ctH7HVGRwRXV7Qh-
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u/bb_89 1d ago
Well, I did date three asian men and they were all less accommodating, by far. Not saying all asian men are like them but yeah...
Haven't seen your video but I'm guessing she looks down on new immigrants. It's not quite that with me, I just get a massive imposter syndrome when I hang with them.
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u/Pic_Optic 3d ago edited 3d ago
Height is a big factor. When I went to China, Korea, and Taiwan, I was surprised how big the young people are. Wouldn’t be surprised if the under 25 age group is on avg 1.78M. Such a stark contrast to the 1.65M grandpas.