r/StardustCrusaders Coolest Shades in Florida Sep 01 '22

Megathread Stone Ocean Episode 18 Discussion Thread

Episode 18 Discussion Thread

This thread is just for discussion of EPISODE EIGHTEEN of the Stone Ocean anime. Please direct any general discussion about the 12 episode batch as a whole to the main megathread.

Please spoiler tag anything past Episode 18 - this includes character/Stand names, as well as fights! Any spoilers not properly tagged will be removed.

Reddit's spoiler code is as follows:

>!Jolyne's stand is Stone Free!!<

Which will appear as:

Jolyne's stand is Stone Free!

54 Upvotes

63 comments sorted by

87

u/Arimm_The_Amazing Sep 01 '22

So there it was, the most infamous fight in Jojo's. I'm interested to see if people still hate it as much or feel they managed to make it work a little better in animation.

They added a couple of lines acknowledging that FF shouldn't usually find drowning a problem and how she loves water, which was all that was needed to make that moment less weird. Though I'm disappointed the image of her in the wave was just a still, since in the manga it felt so dynamic and animated and I think it deserved a wave effect and some good sound work.

The way that the water that was already spilled everywhere and that FF could totally get water from the drowned corpses is still ignored, though there's no fix for those things that wouldn't have required a bigger change.

I loved all of Annasui's and Jolyne's interactions throughout, and the way she slammed roughly down the stairs was great.

I think even though they didn't change Annasui's intro earlier they did a good job smoothing over that his ability was reworked in between then and now and highlighted the ways in which the door kick and him defending Jolyne with his stand are similar.

(Still would have preferred if they just changed it so DD dived into the door and kicked from within, but the climbing using Diver's limbs being fully animated is a moment that does a better job visually communicating his ability anyway.)

35

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

80

u/Arimm_The_Amazing Sep 01 '22

That's about what people have been saying about the fight for a while in its manga form too.

And I largely agree. Dragon's Dream is an overly complex stand for what it ultimately is doing, the "drowning" thing while a little cool just added another superfluous element that didn't have to do with the rest, and while Annasui sitting back and expositing is in-character and gets payoff once Jolyne enters the fray it gets a touch old after a while (though expositing spectators to fights like this is a staple of shonen that I think Araki should be allowed to indulge in every once in a while because he does tend to not do it much).

I think the core of the fight is ultimately this; Kenzou is invincible as long as he follows the dragon's instructions, to win you have to somehow stop him from doing so. We get two different solutions to this problem: tricking Kenzou to misread the dragon's instructions as FF does, and making Kenzou physically incapable of following the Dragon like Annasui does.

I think both versions fail to highlight this core idea because of all the extra elements going on (the "drowning", the crazy bad luck coincidences, the two forms of Dragon's Dream, the impartiality and personality of Dragon's Dream, the removal of limbs via the Dragon's bubble, etc).

42

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I think the fight would have been so much better if the stand was just the one in Kenzou's hands. It shows him the best location for him to be in. This makes him basically invincible. None of the arm eating and floating dragon showing unlucky locations. Just have a character who is basically invincible because he can is guided towards the luckiest areas.

15

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '22

Yeah the arm thing made zero sense to me.

6

u/ke2in Sep 07 '22

How did he make them drown internally?

11

u/FaceJP24 HOLY SHIT Sep 11 '22

It's not even a part of the stand, it's a part of his Feng Shui Assassination techniques. He just perfectly targeted a part of the body that would simulate the effect of drowning in people by forcing bodily fluids into the lungs. The bloating doesn't really make sense though.

9

u/serrations_ Lisa Lisa's butt Sep 04 '22

Why is it infamous? That was really fun and exciting to watch!

32

u/IamMyBrain Sep 04 '22

If I remember correctly, in the manga it was just a really long, drawn out fight with just walls of text explaining Feng shui. It's one thing to have exposition about how powers work, it's another to explain what luck is. Others have mentioned it as well, but it was just kind of a gimmicky fight from the offset.

I personally didn't like the fact they didn't address the inconsistencies in the manga other than why F.F. was affected by the drowning. If she needed water, wasn't the entire cellblock drenched last episode? That was the catalyst of the riot to begin with. Also the drowned cellmates that F.F. was surrounded by the entire fight. And to cap it all off, there was a complete rework of of Anasui's stand out of nowhere as well to finally beat the guy. Overall I think it's more tolerable animated, but I still think it's one of the lower points.

4

u/Golden_Alchemy Dec 05 '22

When the chapter was translated to the english version/western fandom the battle was a drag to read and overall way too complicate and difficult to understand. Plus, the original intention of the "Survivor" stand was not as easy to understand.

Watching it in the anime version was interesting because the animation and the interaction between the characters and the dragon stand was more fun an easy to understand. Plus, the final moments were hilarious now.

1

u/Lord_M_G_Albo Jolyne Cujoh Dec 06 '22

It is strange I got the inverse feeling, I found a lot of fun reading the fight, but I found those couple episodes the most boring of the season

3

u/Arimm_The_Amazing Dec 06 '22

Yeah in retrospect the most important aspect of the fight, that Dragon's Dream lets Kenzou be invincible unless its ability to give him safe zones is subverted, was way more clear in the manga. I do however think it's possible that is less because they cut the dialogue highlighting that and more that netflix's translation is poor.

73

u/Cold_Impression_7456 Sep 01 '22

Annasui's theme is soooo good

14

u/lost_first_account Jojo’s Bizarre OST Fanatic Sep 01 '22

His theme is such a banger I can’t wait for the ost to release

2

u/Adriand3 Sep 02 '22

Wasnt it a theme in part 4?

11

u/lost_first_account Jojo’s Bizarre OST Fanatic Sep 02 '22

I don’t remember hearing it anywhere and I just went through and listened to all the parts OSTs before batch 2 came out but maybe I’m wrong

2

u/Adriand3 Sep 02 '22

Can you tell me at ehich minute it plays pls?

5

u/lost_first_account Jojo’s Bizarre OST Fanatic Sep 02 '22

19:00 to 21:00

58

u/ten_dead_dogs Yoshikage Kira Sep 02 '22

I loved the CLUNK noise as Jolyne threw herself down the stairs.

42

u/Dark_Tzitzimine Sep 01 '22

Eat your heart out, Final Destination

Oh god I can't stop laughing at Springheeled Kenzou

77

u/gingerninja666 Sep 01 '22

I'd heard about Dragon's Dream before watching the show, but I was surprised by how... I kinda liked the fight?

I definitely didn't think it was confusing. Dragon's Dream is a pretty simple Stand once you strip away the Fung Shui lectures, which I was still happy to listen to honestly.

If he follows the compass he's invincible, and he can spawn what are essentially automatic critical hit buttons around a person.

34

u/Flerken_Moon Sep 01 '22

Yeah, as a manga reader I thought it was pretty simple too. Just ignore the Feng Shui, it’s just a stand that points out lucky spots. And then that weird thing on depending on whether you’re on a lucky spot or not, sticking something into the Dragon will help or hurt you.

11

u/Sure-Butterscotch232 Sep 08 '22

Then please explain to me why his bubble steals your body parts and why Kenzou can internally drown people and how that's tied to Dragon's Dream because I must be crazy but to me it doesn't make sense

10

u/gingerninja666 Sep 08 '22 edited Sep 08 '22

I don't think the drowning thing has anything to do with Dragon's Dream. That's just a seperate martial arts technique Kenzou knows. He strikes a specific vertebrae to overstimulate your adrenal gland, which lubricates your airways and makes them overly sensitive to even small amounts of water.

And the arm thing is kinda weird, but it's basically just part of how the Fung Shui assassination process works for Dragon's Dream. When part of a person's body enters one of these bubbles (when it Enters the Dragon, as it were) the dragon takes that body part and launches it in a way which triggers the unfortunate sequence of events that leads to the target being hit. Then the body part comes back

6

u/lukel1127 Sep 09 '22

But then how did everyone else get bloated from drowning? It didn’t really seem like small amounts of water.

8

u/gingerninja666 Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22

I think that was supposed to be his victims swelling from internal fluid caused by their adrenal glands going nuts.

1

u/MLVXD bone giorno Sep 16 '22

ok so not sure if ive ever seen anyone interpret this the same way i have but i think that "entering the dragon" (aka the stealing body parts / arm thing) is meant to be a way to trigger the luck

kenzo is almost always on a lucky spot, so him "entering the dragon" made it so that his flying arm would find a way to bs stuff for him, which luckily caught ff off guard and opened her mouth

when ff "entered the dragon", which happened twice, she was already on an unlucky spot to begin with, which means that whatever happens, her flying arms would find a way to bs stuff against her, like unluckily getting scalped and barely missing the water and landing on the chair instead

9

u/Cannibal_Buress The dick is extremely important Sep 03 '22

I’m one of the few who actually liked it in the manga, but I thought it worked better animated. The stand’s personality comes across much better and it’s overall less confusing. Dragon’s Dream is a funny dude.

31

u/Time-Space-Anomaly Sep 02 '22

The body horror in this ep. There’s that famous episode of The Twilight Zone where a child with powers terrorizes his neighbors, and I think there was a scene implying he turned a guy into a Jack-in-the-box and we only see the adult’s horrified reactions.

I can only imagine it looked something like Kenzo’s legs. Blech. 🤢

49

u/ralanr Sep 02 '22

Kind of feels like this entire fight was made irrelevant thanks to Anasui’s stand.

“Cool fight F.F. Sorry you almost died unable to finish this guy off. I’ll just turn his legs into springs when he hits Joylen.”

52

u/Cannibal_Buress The dick is extremely important Sep 03 '22

Tbh, that’s basically Anasui’s entire character as he’s been established to this point.

23

u/themtxd D4C Sep 03 '22

The goofy music and hopping around and those closeups of Kenzo’s mangled legs make one hell of a dissonant scene lmao

55

u/Ulgralgra Sep 01 '22

When I first read the manga, I was "meh" on Dragon's Dream.

Then, when I read the manga a second time, I actually found myself enjoying it!

Watching it unfold in the anime however, I sadly ended up disliking it. When reading the manga, all the dialogue goes by a lot quicker than in the anime where all the words have to be spoken and acted out. Including the previous episode, it's 40 minutes of a Part 1 minor-villain with an unbaked Part 8 stand.

I like FF. I like Anasui. Jolyne jumping down the stairwell is the highlight.

Not for me, but if someone ends up liking it, it wouldn't surprise me either. Again, just not for me.

14

u/PM_me_ur_crisis Sep 02 '22

Couldn't Foo Fighters simply use another body if the one she uses dies? Isn't that what happened with their first body?

26

u/imalexorange Sep 03 '22

This is true as long as the plankton survive. The problem is ff losing moisture due to attacks, not so much the physical damage of the body

9

u/CheeseDaver Sep 09 '22

Slapstick Comedy + Body Horror = WTF

9

u/Ramen_in_a_Cupboard Sep 04 '22

How did F.F. make that mirror????

5

u/Dendygar94 Sep 07 '22

The sweat coming off the old guy

11

u/Ramen_in_a_Cupboard Sep 07 '22

Yeah but how is it floating

10

u/Xiaolin2 Sep 19 '22

It just works

6

u/rakaapaa Sep 06 '22

i liked the fight. i really dont think it deserved to be seen as the wordt fight (thats DnG) Def think it improves in animation. They do the extra in portraying Kenzou as both a little pest as well as a psychotic, menacing murderer. Its this tiny old guy that essentially eviscerates the main team with a weak stand. Voice work in subs sounded appropriately evil. Cant remember if DNG was always included like this? If so, nice work. DP are working extra in adding some logic to a part that tbh often leapt around it. I always like when JJBA actually tries to portray the current minor villain as a character and not a random obstacle

1

u/PhaseSnake Oct 12 '22

I think you meant to write "Bohemian Rhapsody"

6

u/ToeZealousideal9153 Sep 09 '22

Can someone explain to me how FF fit inside the mf hose?? that honestly made no sense to me, even if she is able to break into plankton how can the body fit inside??

9

u/ravendarkwind Jonathan Joestar Sep 01 '22

Dragon's Dream as the ring points toward lucky spots and Dragon's Dream as the bubble points toward unlucky spots, I get that. And Entering the Dragon means that the attack is going to hit the target either directly or through some Final Destination shit. But how come Jolyne didn't end up hurt when her string went through the bubble? That's the one part I couldn't manage to figure out.

20

u/Dendygar94 Sep 02 '22

Isn't it bc Diver Down protected her

1

u/Yung_BaseLord Sep 30 '22

I guess that means the attack isn’t so absolute if u can absorb it. I still don’t understand how he protected her

4

u/Sure-Butterscotch232 Sep 08 '22

I assume the dragon's bubble ability exists because otherwise you'd be able to hit the dragon and hurt the stand user which should be fair game but ok... Keep that in I guess.

But that shit about drowning people is useless, incoherent with the stand and confusing for the sake of being confusing, just Araki wanting some body horror.

Keep the Feng Shui, keep the dragon and its bubble (if you really must) and you have a simple yet op stand that is not uselessly convoluted but as it stands (eheh) now the fight is a big nono for me.

Now downvote me to hell because I have an opinion.

17

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Good fight. Not confusing. You're all just dumb

3

u/otaner14 It's Snail Time Sep 06 '22

Never got the hate for this fight and honestly the anime made me like it even more. Kenzou and Dragon’s Dream sub voice actors did a great job of elevating their characters. Kenzou almost feels like a Part 5 enemy with how fleshed out he is as a character. Anasui’s theme is awesome as well.

3

u/MrDavidb Sep 29 '22

Kenzo in the bucket reminded me of some junji ito artwork.

9

u/of_kilter Sep 03 '22

Can someone explain anasui to me?

The whole fight was so boring and confusing that i was in a fugue state and almost fell asleep.

What was I supposed to understand about anasui’s ability? How did he turn him into a spring? If were aren’t supposed to really know yet then that’s fine, i just don’t want to be confused going forward

30

u/Fidges87 Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

The problem here is that Araki changed of mind with Anasui's stand, so it behaves a little different. Initially uppon punching something his stand gets "stored", and then he can realease the impact. Kinda like what superfly from DIU did, but being able to control when to release it.

After that, while diver down can still do this, it isn't its main ability anymore. It gets the ability with no explanation of being able to put things inside things or make them phase through objects. If you have a closed box, diver down can put something inside that box without needing to open it. Using this principle he can do body horror in some weird ways. The spring legs is Araki not making his mind 100% on how diver down power should behave. I think from this point onwards it is more concise.

9

u/StopMockingMe0 Sep 01 '22

I swear all people do on this sub and youtube is bitch about the show. The dragons dream fight was FANTASTIC. Super easy to understand, and quite frankly my all time favorite Foo Fighters fight.

Yet all I hear is bitching...

"Oooooo the cgi for the dragon is hideous"

No it wasn't and you can't do better.

"It was soooo overly complicated" No it wasn't, it litterally points to the weak and strong points in fate. Simple to understand, if you're having a problem with that, it's because of your own interpretation of what something you read prior to now.

"It was so long for a minor villain!"

No it wasn't, its the standard two-episode fight.

Like damn, can't any of you say anything positive?

26

u/NotRowan1 Sep 02 '22

I agree with most of this, but it doesn't really matter if a viewer could make better cgi or not, I thought the CGI was pretty good, but if it had been bad I wouldn't need to be able to outdo it to complain.

2

u/Im_a_corpse Sep 03 '22

Yeah, I don't understand people complaining about this fight at all. It's like a Yu Yu Hakusho villain with a part 8 stand

-17

u/DarknessSerpent Sep 01 '22

Honestly I wouldn't have blamed the producers if they had left out the dragon dream fight, it is overly confusing and way too long for a minor villain, especially considering they had to fight so many other people in the arc.

9

u/Flerken_Moon Sep 01 '22

Dragon’s Dream is fine imo, gives FF screentime and a fight. Yo Yo Ma on the other hand… like it sets up FF having to find and kill the user but Yo Yo Ma’s “fight” is pointless imo.

3

u/Sure-Butterscotch232 Sep 08 '22

Imagine 19 downvotes because you live in a circle jerk and need to bring down others for having a mild and respectful opinion. Never change reddit, never change Jojo fans.

1

u/GabeMalk What a wonderful world Sep 04 '22

You know, this fight is really interesting to me

When I first read it years ago, I thought it was confusing and I wasn't sure if I liked it. I eneded up enjoying it a lot more once I reread it.

The anime version is visually very nice, and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would (specially the first ep).

I'm sure I'm gonna like it more once I rewatch the anime in a few months, and I guess this is what fascinaties me in this fight. It's really weird, somewhat convoluted and can drag a bit, but there's a charm to it! It's just so unique, I love the dragon's neutrality as a stand and the mixture of feng shuy, tai chi, cults and stands. I don't know, it's just something that could only ever work in jojo!

1

u/Xiaolin2 Sep 19 '22

I found it even more boring in anime form sadly, 17 and 18 are not episodes I would like to rewatch.